18:48:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:48:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-aapi-irc
18:48:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
18:48:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:48:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:48:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
18:48:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:48:11 <trackbot> Date: 09 June 2015
18:48:20 <clown> agenda: this
18:48:44 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635/ACTION-1546/ACTION-1643: (Joseph, David, Aleax, James) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup.
18:48:50 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
18:48:55 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1620: (Cynthia) Propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder.
18:49:02 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within table/lists.
18:49:08 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:49:15 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1608: (Cynthia) Bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce.
18:49:23 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1623: (Joseph) Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue.
18:49:30 <clown> agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23)
18:50:08 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:50:26 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:50:38 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:51:22 <clown> regrets:  Cynthia_Shelly
18:51:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/09-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:00:42 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:03:03 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:03:03 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:03:21 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:04:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:05:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> yeah, send me all that please
19:05:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> thanks
19:06:59 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:06:59 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ISSUE-635/ACTION-1546/ACTION-1643: (Joseph, David, Aleax, James) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
19:07:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> Present+ Rich
19:07:10 <clown> issue-635?
19:07:10 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
19:07:10 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
19:07:20 <clown> action-1546?
19:07:20 <trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
19:07:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
19:07:38 <clown> action-1643?
19:07:38 <trackbot> action-1643 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide mappings for role="rowgroup" for atk/at-spi when there is an accessible in the a11y tree for the element. -- due 2015-06-09 -- OPEN
19:07:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1643
19:07:41 <joanie> JS: I'll give you a brief update about what's going on with rowgroup.
19:08:02 <joanie> JS: I've sent email to James Craig about my example with rowgroups that are interactive, focusable, etc.
19:08:07 <joanie> JS: He's not replied.
19:08:20 <joanie> JS: I looked at this using the Apple accessibility inspector.
19:08:27 <joanie> JS: There's no rowgroups in the tree.
19:08:40 <joanie> JS: It looks like when the rowgroup is focused, the web area is focused.
19:08:44 <joanie> RS: I don't understand.
19:08:46 <clown> http://clown.idrc.ocad.ca/Fluid/aria/FocusableRowGroup.html
19:08:51 <joanie> JS: The above is my example.
19:09:12 <joanie> JS: There's the morning rushhour. If you Tab down you can focus that rowgroup.
19:09:46 <joanie> s/morning rushhour/Morning Rush Hour/
19:09:58 <joanie> JS: (Explains his example)
19:10:12 <joanie> RS: So the whole web page?
19:10:14 <joanie> JS: Yes.
19:10:19 <joanie> RS: That sounds like a bug.
19:10:37 <joanie> JS: But they don't expose rowgroup, so where else are they going to put focus?
19:11:03 <joanie> BG: I'm looking at the spec. Reading rowgroup, it doesn't say that it's supposed to be interactive.
19:11:16 <joanie> BG: Row supports interactive, selected, etc.
19:11:31 <joanie> BG: But rowgroup does not include active descendant as an attribute.
19:11:50 <joanie> RS: Part of the problem might be due to the fact we had no mappings.
19:12:01 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#rowgroup
19:14:06 <joanie> RS: If something is focusable, isn't there something you're supposed to be doing to expose the object.
19:14:48 <joanie> JD: Just file a bug against Safari.
19:15:26 <joanie> BG: I was thinking that all the others support aria-activedescent.
19:15:54 <joanie> s/activedescent/activedescendant/
19:16:07 <joanie> BG: I think rowgroup should also support aria-activedescendant.
19:16:16 <joanie> JS: I will file a bug against WebKit.
19:16:33 <joanie> RS: This wasn't an issue for HTML4 because tabindex did not apply to all elements.
19:16:45 <joanie> JS: Right. It was limited to anchors, form fields, and the like.
19:17:13 <joanie> RS: Now tabindex is on everything.
19:17:39 <joanie> RS: Because it's focusable, not mapping it is a serious bug in WebKit.
19:18:33 <joanie> JS: For ATK, rowgroup will be mapped to ROLE_PANEL if the element is exposed.
19:18:44 <joanie> RS: And as a group for everything else?
19:18:58 <joanie> JS: IA2 does have a pane role.
19:19:20 <joanie> RS: Didn't we already decide it would be mapped as a group for the other platforms?
19:19:31 <joanie> JS: If it's not focusable, we want it not mapped, right?
19:19:38 <joanie> BG: Unless it has aria-owns.
19:24:20 <joanie> (Discussion about what to do with the non-interactive rowgroups)
19:25:18 <joanie> BG: I like the idea of exposing it all the time because it would support labeling.
19:25:31 <joanie> JS: If you label it, then it has to be exposed because the name can't just float around.
19:25:57 <joanie> RS: So it's a panel in ATK, and a group for the rest.
19:26:12 <joanie> RS: On the Mac API, you have role, subrole, and role description.
19:26:19 <joanie> JS: I think that comes out of the bug report.
19:26:27 <joanie> JS: Do you want to discuss that here and now?
19:26:37 <joanie> RS: What happens to group?
19:27:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> JD: My only concern is can the AXRoleDescription be free floating text?
19:28:12 <richardschwerdtfeger> JD: There are a few roles where the accessibility API does not change as a result of OS changes?
19:31:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> JD: I am using Fedora 22. FF exposes new versions for which on older versions of the platform there are no APIs that are consistent with the changes in the FF implementation (mapping)
19:32:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> Rich: Apple “can” update everything when they change Safari - inluding VoiceOver, APIs, etc.
19:34:07 <joanie> JS: I can put in what Rich suggested for AX API mappings and add a comment saying "To be determined".
19:34:54 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:34:54 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree." taken up [from clown]
19:35:06 <clown> action-842?
19:35:06 <trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2015-09-30 -- OPEN
19:35:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
19:35:53 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here, but emailed me to indicate she'd updated her action. So I'll look.
19:36:16 <joanie> JS: Looking at the action, it's due on 30 Sept now.
19:37:30 <joanie> JS: What is the due date for ARIA 1.1?
19:37:44 <joanie> RS: I'd like to have it go to CR sometime in fall.
19:37:52 <joanie> JS: Does that mean all the tests are run?
19:38:05 <joanie> RS: No. You don't have to have the tests when you enter CR.
19:38:16 <joanie> JS: This is a diagram. It doesn't depend on tests.
19:38:26 <joanie> RS: But document freeze date should be around TPAC.
19:38:39 <joanie> JS: She says it will land on September 30th.
19:38:56 <joanie> JS: So it could still land in ARIA 1.1. Otherwise, it becomes part of ARIA 2.
19:39:25 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:25 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1620: (Cynthia) Propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder." taken up [from clown]
19:39:30 <clown> action-1620?
19:39:30 <trackbot> action-1620 -- Cynthia Shelly to Propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-06-09 -- CLOSED
19:39:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1620
19:39:50 <joanie> JS: She closed this one; no, I closed it. That must mean I made the edits.
19:40:00 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaPlaceholder
19:40:17 <joanie> JS: I know what's outstanding: There are mappings in the Editor's Draft for UIA.
19:40:37 <joanie> JS: But last week she wanted this to be included in the Accessible Name calculation.
19:40:49 <joanie> JS: But she wasn't sure if it took precedence over title.
19:40:59 <joanie> JS: I don't want it in the name computation.
19:41:08 <joanie> RS: It's not a suitable replacement for labels.
19:41:46 <joanie> agenda?
19:42:19 <joanie> action-1644
19:42:19 <trackbot> action-1644 -- Cynthia Shelly to Check which is the actual last resort betwen @title and @aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-06-09 -- OPEN
19:42:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1644
19:42:49 <joanie> JS: Action 1644 is the action assigned to Cynthia to get an answer about title versus placeholder.
19:43:08 <joanie> JS: The mappings are already in the Editor's Draft.
19:43:24 <joanie> s/The mappings/The UIA mappings/
19:43:28 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:43:28 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1311: (Joseph) Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within table/lists." taken up [from clown]
19:43:32 <clown> action-1311?
19:43:32 <trackbot> action-1311 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Clarify that presentation role should preserve separation of nodes within tables/lists; work out in UAIG 1.1 and with implementors/vendors how to resolve this. -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:43:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1311
19:43:43 <joanie> JS: This is one that's been on my todo list for a long time.
19:44:28 <joanie> JS: I've got in my notes on this, that it's waiting on the generic container role ARIA issue.
19:44:31 <joanie> action-1515
19:44:31 <trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2015-02-24 -- CLOSED
19:44:31 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
19:44:33 <clown> action-1515?
19:44:34 <trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2015-02-24 -- CLOSED
19:44:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
19:44:42 <joanie> JS: I'm blocked on this until that action is done.
19:44:52 <clown> action-144?
19:44:53 <trackbot> action-144 -- Michael Cooper to Research precedent in other W3C specs for how "should" statements affect CR testing and exit requirements -- due 2010-01-15 -- CLOSED
19:44:53 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/144
19:44:59 <clown> action-1444?
19:44:59 <trackbot> action-1444 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Update atk/at-spi2 mapping for role presentation in tables and lists. -- due 2015-02-24 -- CLOSED
19:44:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1444
19:45:10 <joanie> JD: I don't know why you're blocked on it.
19:45:18 <joanie> RS: I thought we did this already.
19:45:32 <joanie> RS: We had a whole discussion on the generic containers during one of our calls here.
19:45:38 <joanie> JS: I don't recall this.
19:46:08 <joanie> RS: What I recall, they were going to call the generic container role a group no matter what on IE.
19:46:40 <joanie> RS: For MSAA and IA2, that was going to be a group as well.
19:46:48 <joanie> RS: I don't recall what we're doing for the Mac.
19:46:57 <joanie> RS: But I'd think it would be AXGroup.
19:47:09 <joanie> RS: And I thought ATK/AT-SPI2 was always going to be PANEL
19:48:07 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#presentation
19:48:26 <joanie> JS: The above URL is for role presentation.
19:48:36 <joanie> JS: (Reads clause for ATK)
19:48:54 <joanie> JS: We have similar wording for UIA.
19:49:10 <joanie> JS: I could put in similar wording for MSAA and IA2.
19:49:25 <joanie> JS: I will need input for Apple.
19:53:27 <joanie> JS: Ok, I'm unstuck. I will make the edits.
19:53:38 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:53:38 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1373: (Cynthia) Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
19:53:47 <clown> action-1373?
19:53:47 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-08-15 -- OPEN
19:53:47 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
19:54:04 <joanie> JS: Cynthia moved this ahead to August 15th.
19:54:18 <joanie> JS: This is more important because the action is to create a test case.
19:54:47 <joanie> JS: I think we say in the spec that the browser will figure it out.
19:55:06 <joanie> JS: What should happen?
19:55:33 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#ariaPosinset
19:55:40 <joanie> RS: Honestly, I don't know if the browser is going to figure it out.
19:55:53 <joanie> JS: (Reads from spec for above URL)
19:56:34 <joanie> RS: But if they put a posinset and setsize on items 2 and 4, but they say "5 of 8" and "7 of 8". You cannot get that from the DOM.
19:56:47 <joanie> RS: I don't think we should expect the user agents to figure this out.
19:57:17 <joanie> JS: The statement could mean "if not provided at all," that would make more sense to me.
19:57:34 <joanie> JS: But it doesn't say what to do if the author puts some in but not all.
19:57:44 <joanie> RS: I don't think we should worry about it. I think it's an error condition.
19:57:58 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:57:58 <Zakim> agendum 6. "ACTION-1608: (Cynthia) Bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce." taken up [from clown]
19:58:06 <clown> action-1608?
19:58:06 <trackbot> action-1608 -- Cynthia Shelly to Bring up issue-708 with the html-a11y taskforce. -- due 2015-06-30 -- OPEN
19:58:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1608
19:58:22 <joanie> JS: She changed the due date to the end of June.
19:58:35 <joanie> issue-708
19:58:36 <trackbot> issue-708 -- The phrase "If not already excluded from the accessibility tree per the rules above" implies that the listed conditions do not override. Is that correct? -- open
19:58:36 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/708
19:58:54 <joanie> JS: I didn't make any notes here.
19:59:14 <joanie> JS: I will keep this one on our radar.
19:59:19 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:59:19 <Zakim> agendum 7. "ACTION-1623: (Joseph) Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue." taken up [from clown]
19:59:24 <clown> action-1623?
19:59:24 <trackbot> action-1623 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:59:24 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1623
19:59:50 <joanie> JS: James confirmed the mapping for aria-placeholder.
19:59:54 <joanie> JS: So I can close this action.
20:00:02 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:00:02 <Zakim> agendum 7 was just opened, joanie
20:00:07 <joanie> agenda?
20:00:16 <joanie> Zakim, close item 7
20:00:16 <Zakim> agendum 7, ACTION-1623: (Joseph) Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue., closed
20:00:19 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:00:19 <Zakim> 8. Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23) [from clown]
20:20:06 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:20:07 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:20:27 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop