14:02:35 RRSAgent has joined #tt 14:02:35 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-irc 14:02:37 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:02:37 Zakim has joined #tt 14:02:39 Zakim, this will be TTML 14:02:39 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 14:02:40 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 14:02:40 Date: 04 June 2015 14:02:48 zakim, this is 8865 14:02:48 ok, glenn; that matches SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM 14:02:58 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:02:58 On the phone I see pal, +1.720.897.aaaa 14:03:03 zakim, aaaa is me 14:03:03 +glenn; got it 14:03:13 tmichel has joined #tt 14:03:23 i'm going to miss telling zakim what to do ;( 14:03:48 nigel has joined #tt 14:04:02 +??P20 14:04:03 nigel, already set up on zakim 14:04:31 zakim, ??P20 is me 14:04:32 +tmichel; got it 14:04:52 +nigel 14:05:33 Present: glenn, tmichel, nigel, Frans, pal 14:05:35 chair: nigel 14:05:37 scribe: nigel 14:05:41 Topic: This meeting 14:06:54 Regrets: andreas 14:07:25 nigel: Goes through agenda, AOB? 14:07:30 group: no AOB. 14:07:57 Topic: Action Items 14:08:45 nigel: There are 4 TTML action items open - no progress so far on those. Some of the other actions are below. 14:09:08 + +41.22.717.aabb 14:09:10 glenn: If someone feels like any of those action items need to be prioritised then let me know. 14:09:18 zakim, aabb is Frans 14:09:19 +Frans; got it 14:09:26 Present+ Frans 14:10:04 Topic: Issues 14:10:14 issue-265? 14:10:15 issue-265 -- Some bad tests -- open 14:10:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/265 14:11:01 nigel: I've added another test that seems to be wrong, where the child of a seq container is asserted to 14:11:11 ... have zero duration whereas the TTML spec says it should be indefinite. 14:11:15 issue-341? 14:11:15 issue-341 -- ambiguous definition for determination of descendant region identifier -- open 14:11:15 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/341 14:12:43 nigel: I added a note to this. 14:12:55 glenn: I've decided since I raised the issue that it's not adequate and we need something that works 14:13:23 ... a little differently, so that the region of an element that has no ancestor with a region but some children 14:13:39 ... that do then the region of the element is effectively multi-valent, in the sense that when evaluating 14:14:02 ... the region of the descendants of that element you walk up the tree and set the region of the highest 14:14:19 ... level of the tree to that region, and do the same again for other descendants. So that the region of 14:14:42 ... the ancestors that did not specify a region switch as you walk up the tree. 14:14:58 nigel: Makes sense to me - I think that's the same as my proposal, if I have understood correctly. 14:16:06 nigel: Glenn, if you could add a description of what you're thinking to issue-341 that would be really useful. 14:16:30 ACTION: glenn to add note to Issue 341 to reflect his current thinking 14:16:31 Created ACTION-404 - Add note to issue 341 to reflect his current thinking [on Glenn Adams - due 2015-06-11]. 14:17:09 Topic: IMSC CR2 14:17:33 nigel: We received some detailed feedback from timeless this week. 14:17:58 glenn: He's been very active in the HTML WG too. 14:18:15 pal: I've briefly looked at it - it's mostly editorial; the question is how to document those. 14:19:16 nigel: I don't think we have to do formal dispositions so I suggest we just add issues in the tracker for 14:19:22 ... each of the points raised. 14:19:27 pal: Okay I'm happy to do that. 14:19:42 tmichel: Yes, I can confirm that would be sufficient. Reading the SOTD I think we should have added that 14:20:06 ... we expect comments only on the new stuff since the new CR. 14:20:15 nigel: I think there were only removals not additions. Is that right? 14:20:28 pal: I can check. Regardless, comments are always welcome; the group can choose what to do about them. 14:20:50 ... First I'll propose some resolutions. 14:21:12 nigel: Perfect. I think there are a mix on the range from typo to substantive questions that need answering. 14:21:32 Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report 14:22:55 pal: From last time, I need to work with tmichel now that he has returned. 14:23:11 tmichel: So have I understood right that you want me to reach out and you can provide a list? 14:23:23 pal: That's right, and there's a suggestion of creating a webinar. 14:23:27 tmichel: Yes, right. 14:23:41 pal: There's a question of if W3C does that, if it makes sense, etc.? 14:23:58 tmichel: I have never done webinars for a CR phase but I will investigate if it's been done and how to proceed. 14:24:10 ... But I can work with you pal to start preparing a list. 14:24:17 q+ 14:24:22 pal: Is there a timeframe for sending out an email? 14:24:31 tmichel: I would say the sooner the better unless there's a reason to delay. 14:24:35 ack glenn 14:24:52 glenn: I just want to mention that Skynav has been asked by a client to do an IMSC addition to the TTML 14:25:08 ... Verifier tool and most likely will also add support to it in the TT Presentation Engine to be able to 14:25:22 ... present IMSC documents, so we will probably be able to sign up as one of the implementors. 14:25:28 pal: Great, you're added to the list! 14:25:40 glenn: Schedule will probably be Q3 or Q4 2015. 14:26:06 action-388? 14:26:06 action-388 -- Thierry Michel to Start preparing the imsc 1 implementation report form. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:26:06 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/388 14:26:21 tmichel: No real progress other than thinking about it. I think I'll proceed with a WBS as the easier way 14:26:38 ... to manage it. I was planning to start a first WBS with a few test cases, and then if we agree on the 14:26:52 ... general format then I could go through the whole list. I could propose something this week before 14:26:55 ... the next meeting. 14:27:31 Topic: WebVTT review feedback 14:28:04 action-395? 14:28:04 action-395 -- Thierry Michel to Chase the accessibility wg for a date for getting webvtt feedback -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:28:04 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/395 14:28:21 tmichel: Nothing to report - I have not received anything from a11y while I was away. I'll ping them again. 14:28:23 action-396? 14:28:23 action-396 -- David Singer to Produce evidence of request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:28:23 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396 14:29:02 nigel: dsinger has created a page to document the review at https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebVTT_Wide_Review 14:29:42 nigel: I don't think we can discuss this now, but just wanted to note for the minutes that it's there. 14:29:53 Topic: TTML2 editorial actions 14:30:43 nigel: One of these has been done! I created a diagram and updated the text, and pushed it to Hg, 14:31:05 ... then Glenn regenerated the ED based on it, so now you can see it at https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/default/ttml2/spec/ttml2.html#model 14:31:53 glenn: I had done an update on Hg yesterday and must have pulled it in then. Looking quickly at it, 14:32:23 ... the left box looks a bit non-symmetrical at the bottom - a visual comment only. It looks a good 14:32:47 ... start otherwise. 14:33:31 nigel: As a process, that worked well for me, as the change got incorporated. Is there anything we 14:33:48 ... should do differently next time? 14:34:24 glenn: That's okay. It's useful to have an email notifying of the changes. 14:34:30 nigel: Plus you did some work on the features. 14:34:49 glenn: I started to add TTML2 features to Appendix E. I slightly modified the animation feature. I had 14:35:01 ... a conversation with a TTML2 user about the issue of potential changes to the semantics of existing 14:35:17 ... feature designators defined in TTML1. On reflection it is inadvisable to make semantic changes to 14:35:32 ... designators unless there's a mistake or a blatant error in TTML1. We shouldn't for example extend 14:35:48 ... or restrict the semantics of a feature already defined in TTML1, rather we should introduce a new 14:36:11 ... designator reflecting the extended/restricted form. For animation, for example I had edited it in 14:36:28 ... TTML2 to include the animate element, but in conclusion I've reverted that animation designator and 14:36:52 ... introduced animation-2 as a new designator defining the extension to the animation element. If 14:37:02 ... I made any other changes I'll revert them and add a -2 flavour for TTML2. 14:37:25 ... The other thing I've started doing is adding TTML2 vocabulary, ruby, ruby-*, textEmphasis etc. 14:37:40 ... For the first time I'm specifying whether a feature is a restriction or an extension to another feature 14:37:56 ... now that we have vocabulary to express that. It was a useful experiment to add a few in, and in the 14:38:22 ... case of textEmphasis I defined two subset features, -no-color and no-quoted-string. 14:38:48 ... I also defined a -minimal designator that is the intersection of no-color and no-quoted-string subset 14:39:04 ... designators. That's the first time I've defined an intersection; I suspect I'll be doing that for other 14:39:24 ... complex features too, and it's something we may want to exploit elsewhere, including for TTML1 14:39:26 ... features. 14:39:57 ... I'll be adding some new features over the next few days. 14:40:00 nigel: Great! 14:40:17 glenn: I'd like to confirm with pal whether it would be useful or necessary to add feature designators 14:40:34 ... to support IMSC semantics. We might want to codify restrictions defined in IMSC to allow us more 14:40:40 ... easily to support IMSC 2. 14:40:48 pal: Sure, let me add that to my to-do list. 14:41:15 glenn: For IMSC 2 rather than IMSC 1, imagining you back-port restrictions from IMSC 1 into IMSC 2. 14:41:19 pal: Got it! 14:41:40 nigel: At some point we'll also want to generate tests for those features. 14:41:58 Topic: AOB 14:42:14 nigel: First up, TPAC 2015 schedule. 14:42:30 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-tt/2015May/0030.html 14:43:43 nigel: We've had confirmation that we'll meet on Thursday and Friday. Can I just check that this won't 14:43:49 ... cause any difficulties? 14:43:58 pal: Not for me 14:44:00 glenn: Fine for me 14:44:33 nigel: The next point is the request re pruning of content elements 14:45:17 nigel: In ยง9.3.2 of TTML1: http://www.w3.org/TR/ttml1/#semantics-region-layout-step-1 14:46:42 nigel: The question is, if a div references one region and a p another, is everything pruned, and if so, 14:46:45 ... is that what we want? 14:47:00 glenn: Obviously that's not what we want. Similar to my comments before about walking up the tree, 14:47:13 ... we shouldn't be pruning that content. I've given that some thought and implemented something, 14:47:35 ... so I'll deal with it at the same time as the other issue we talked about. There's no question in my 14:48:10 ... mind about what is desired. The language will need to be fixed. 14:48:27 nigel: I don't think we should change the algorithm, but we should at least add a 'watch out for this' note. 14:48:53 glenn: We can change what we want if there's a mistake. I think there's a convincing case that the 14:49:06 ... language that went into TTML1 was not intended and what was written was an error. So I don't think 14:49:20 ... there's any problem with that. For completeness we would need to move to a future 3rd edition. 14:51:24 nigel: Okay, thanks, let's look at the proposed changes when they're available. 14:51:35 nigel: Next AOB is /TR Style Sheets 14:53:42 nigel: If the Editors could respond to my email listing the survey questions then I will fill in the WBS 14:53:47 ... with our collected answers. 14:53:52 ... I'll prompt Silvia separately. 14:54:13 nigel: The last item is progress on the HTMLCue proposal. 14:55:12 i/n/pal: My only feedback to the survey is IMSC 1 uses respec.js so that's pretty much it. There should be no impact on IMSC 1 if respec.js is updated with new templates. 14:55:52 nigel: Andreas responded by email that he has no update and will push it more in the next 2 weeks. 14:57:15 nigel: The only other thing to note is that next week we will use Webex for audio instead of Zakim, 14:57:22 ... and still use IRC in the same way as now. 14:57:36 tmichel: One thing is that to build the Present list into the minutes there's no connection between 14:57:56 ... Webex and the agent therefore a best practice is to write present+ [name] on IRC when joining the 14:58:12 ... call, to allow the agent to build the Present list. 14:59:11 nigel: Oh, I've been doing that manually as scribe for ages, but happy for anyone else to do it. 14:59:38 tmichel: If you call through a telephone or a computer you need to install a new module, and through 14:59:56 ... the UI you can see the participants who have joined through Webex. If you just dial in then you get a 15:00:14 ... meaningless name label, which isn't useful for the minutes. And it's impossible to paste the list into 15:00:33 ... IRC. But at least you can mute/unmute directly on the tool and others can see your mute state. 15:00:50 -pal 15:01:17 -nigel 15:01:20 -tmichel 15:01:21 -glenn 15:01:23 -Frans 15:01:24 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 15:01:24 Attendees were pal, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, tmichel, nigel, +41.22.717.aabb, Frans 15:01:44 nigel: In that case, let's sign off with a fond farewell to zakim. Meet again same time next week. [adjourns meeting] 15:01:48 rrsagent, make logs public 15:01:53 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:01:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:05:31 s/nigel, already set up on zakim/ 15:12:15 s/and a p another/and one of its descendant p elements another 15:13:05 s/change the algorithm/change the algorithm in TTML1 15:14:18 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:14:18 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:15:42 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:15:42 rrsagent, generate minutes 15:15:42 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/04-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:59:19 nigel has joined #tt 16:49:31 Zakim has left #tt