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14:07:31 <ivan> rrsagent, set log public
14:07:53 <ivan> Meeting: Digital Publishing IG Telco
14:08:09 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
14:09:42 <ivan> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015May/0044.html
14:10:14 <ivan> Date: 2015-05-01
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14:58:15 <dauwhe> Really interesting discussion of packaging in the public-web-perf ML. One highlight: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-web-perf/2015Jan/0041.html
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15:00:38 <tmichel> The audio is really bad. can't understand anything ...
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15:01:22 <ivan> Present: ivan_Herman
15:01:38 <tmichel> +Thierry Michel
15:01:40 <ivan> Present+ Dave_Cramer
15:01:51 <ivan> Present+ Jeff_Xu
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15:02:08 <ivan> Present+ Charles
15:02:09 <ivan> Present Laura_Dawson
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15:02:19 <ivan> Present+ Michael_Miller
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15:02:29 <ivan> Present_ Phil_Madans
15:02:37 <ivan> Pressent+ Phil_Madans
15:02:40 <tzviya> present+ TzviyaSiegman
15:03:03 <tzviya> for call in information, see http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/WebEx
15:03:13 <brady_duga> present+ duga
15:03:19 <ivan> Pressent+ Bert
15:03:24 <ivan> Present+ Bert
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15:03:35 <astearns> present+ astearns
15:03:50 <ivan> Present+ bjdmeest
15:04:11 <ivan> Present+ kwkbtr
15:04:19 <HeatherF> YOu can see who is making noise on WebEx by looking at the "Speaking" bar in the top right
15:04:41 <dauwhe> scribenick: dauwhe
15:04:45 <tzviya> chair: tzviya
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15:04:57 <HeatherF> Also, if the host mutes a person, that person cannot unmute themselves. They'll need to ask via chat.
15:05:03 <dauwhe> all: gnashing of teeth around audio issues
15:05:30 <dauwhe> tzviya: first we will approve minutes
15:05:33 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/05/17-dpub-minutes.html
15:05:36 <dauwhe> ... minutes from last phone call
15:05:40 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
15:05:48 <dauwhe> [crickets]
15:05:57 <dauwhe> ... minutes are approved
15:06:11 <dauwhe> ... thanks to Ivan for summarizing F2F and doing tons of other work
15:06:21 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html
15:06:28 <dauwhe> ... any comments on F2F minutes?
15:06:32 <dauwhe> [crickets]
15:06:49 <HeatherF> Yay for scribes!
15:06:50 <dauwhe> ... we will stipulate that all have read the minutes.
15:06:55 <dauwhe> ... minutes are approved.
15:07:33 <dauwhe> ... next item is recap of F2F, so let's take a look at Ivan's summary
15:07:55 <HeatherF> https://gist.github.com/anonymous/6d1eb70a7eb2ba2a067e
15:07:56 <ivan> sumary fo f2f: http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/2015/05/30/dpub-ig-face-to-face-2015-05-26/?pk_campaign=feed&pk_kwd=dpub-ig-face-to-face-2015-05-26
15:08:14 <dauwhe> ... we had an excellent F2F
15:08:28 <dauwhe> ... we have lots of work ahead
15:08:33 <dauwhe> ... [1] Packaging
15:08:47 <dauwhe> ... we need to define core requirements, and decide if we need packaging
15:09:03 <dauwhe> ... [2] identifiers, and laying out requirements
15:09:23 <dauwhe> ... [3] pagination, and relationship to CSSWG and Houdini. Dave will be talking to CSSWG
15:09:37 <dauwhe> ... [4] a11y. Defining goals of task force, working on docs
15:10:01 <dauwhe> ... serving as liason with other publishing groups like BISG
15:10:11 <dauwhe> ... [5] Education outreach
15:10:19 <dauwhe> ... people don't know what we do now
15:10:31 <dauwhe> ... we have blog, slides, etc
15:10:38 <dauwhe> ... [6] rechartering
15:10:39 <tzviya> q?
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15:10:45 <dauwhe> ... and the future of this group over next two years
15:10:50 <dauwhe> ... any comments?
15:10:54 <dauwhe> [crickets]
15:11:02 <Karen_> q+
15:11:06 <tzviya> ack K
15:11:07 <laudrain> q+
15:11:09 <ivan> ack Karen_
15:11:28 <dauwhe> Karen_: thanks to IDPF board members for attending, and Diane Kennedy from IDEAliance
15:11:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: it was good to have a diverse group
15:11:50 <tzviya> ack la
15:12:03 <dauwhe> laudrain: reading the summary, i was wondering about education
15:12:10 <dauwhe> ... did you speak about edupub?
15:12:33 <dauwhe> tzviya: we talked about educating the publishing community, not about edupub as a topic
15:12:54 <dauwhe> ... Ivan, Markus, and Ralph discussed rechartering on Friday
15:13:01 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-charter/issues
15:13:04 <dauwhe> ivan: I collected the various items on what we decided
15:13:13 <dauwhe> ... and put up as series of issues on github
15:13:16 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/dpub-charter/labels/DPUB%20IG%20comments
15:13:38 <dauwhe> ... 1 issue is to make it clear taht the new group is not completely new
15:13:46 <dauwhe> ... we must follow up on work already started
15:13:51 <dauwhe> s/taht/that/
15:14:20 <dauwhe> ... the other thing is possible misunderstanding on epubweb story
15:14:38 <dauwhe> ... and there were conflicting misunderstandings
15:15:05 <dauwhe> ... some voices seemed to understand this is a profile of epub like edupub is a profile of epub; this is not true
15:15:27 <dauwhe> ... others were afraid that it's throwing epub 3.01 out of the window; this is not true
15:15:57 <dauwhe> ... this is also not restricted to books, also includes journals and magazines; this is true :)
15:16:07 <dauwhe> ... what is a possible alternative name for epubweb?
15:16:21 <dauwhe> ... we did not find a consensus, as all possible names have downsides
15:16:34 <dauwhe> ... and we could easily descend into css-style bikeshedding
15:16:52 <dauwhe> ... we could call the whole thing EPUB+WEB
15:17:02 <dauwhe> ... (emphasis on "+")
15:17:12 <dauwhe> ... may be temporary, but I don't have anything better
15:17:19 <dauwhe> ... there are stylistic issues
15:17:38 <dauwhe> ... Heather pointed us to an IETF draft on packaging
15:18:08 <dauwhe> ... it's not an alternative to w3c spec, but rather having a top-level name for package, then package/epub etc
15:18:24 <HeatherF> http://datatracker.ietf.org/wg/arcmedia/charter/
15:18:37 <dauwhe> ... this shows that whole issue of packaging is interesting, and lots of people are thinking of it
15:18:53 <dauwhe> ... that's what happened on the charter
15:19:13 <dauwhe> ... I'm busy changing the charter, you can see it on new branch on github
15:19:36 <dauwhe> ... the biggest problem is the deliverables and milestones
15:19:48 <dauwhe> ... i hope a new draft will be available on Tuesday or Wednesday
15:19:54 <tzviya> q?
15:19:59 <dauwhe> ... and I really really really really really really want comments
15:20:20 <dauwhe> ... tzviya, did I forget anything?
15:20:47 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'd cut down on number of issues, and focus on big ones, like packaging, identifiers, pagination
15:21:04 <dauwhe> ... not everything we work on will be in charter, as they fall under bigger issues
15:21:20 <dauwhe> ... we'll have milestones and even deadlines
15:21:38 <ivan> https://rawgit.com/w3c/dpub-charter/post-f2f/index.html current draft
15:21:39 <dauwhe> ivan: this is the current draft
15:21:59 <dauwhe> ivan: Does HeatherL have any comment on IETF work?
15:22:13 <pkra> take the red pill.
15:22:19 <tzviya> s/HeatherL/HeatherF
15:22:21 <dauwhe> HeatherF: the arcmedia group is still mostly getting started, a good time to get engaged
15:22:36 <dauwhe> ... the next ietf meeting is July in Prague; most work is done on mailing lists
15:22:42 <dauwhe> ivan: will you be there?
15:22:45 <dauwhe> HeatherF: Yes
15:22:53 <tzviya> q?
15:22:53 <dauwhe> ivan: that will be interesting!
15:23:21 <dauwhe> tzviya: I wanted to stress is that this the point where we decide what we're doing for the next two years
15:23:28 <dauwhe> ... this is the soul-searching moment
15:23:40 <dauwhe> ... speak now!
15:23:46 <dauwhe> ... or else.
15:24:00 <dauwhe> [mysterious beep]
15:24:02 <HeatherF> I haven't had a chance to review the latest text, but I have it on my list for this week.
15:24:31 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements#Functional_Requirements_for_Packaging_Spec
15:24:43 <dauwhe> tzviya: We need to start to put together functional requirements for various things
15:25:04 <dauwhe> ... I wrote up some functional requirements for packaging, dauwhe added a few comments
15:26:01 <dauwhe> ... [reading from requirements]
15:26:26 <dauwhe> ivan: I don't understand "multiple methods of navigation"
15:26:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: in addition to trad toc, we need a list of tables, etc
15:26:55 <dauwhe> ... might not be part of packaging, or something you build out of ARIA
15:27:25 <HeatherF> q+
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15:27:57 <ivan> q+
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15:29:49 <tzviya> q?
15:29:53 <tzviya> ack he
15:30:08 <brady_duga> q+
15:30:18 <dauwhe> HeatherF: with regards to no file size limitations, I thought we decided the operating systems may be the problem
15:30:30 <dauwhe> ... so I'm not sure if we can do anything
15:30:50 <ivan> ack brady_duga
15:30:53 <dauwhe> brady_duga: at the end of the day it's nice to say there's no file size limits
15:31:07 <dauwhe> ... i've seen 600k CSS files, but we handle it slowly
15:31:22 <dauwhe> ... we can't handle arbitrarily large content, in practice there will be limits
15:31:37 <dauwhe> ... in terms of zip, reading systems must support zip 64
15:31:52 <dauwhe> ... if you give me a book larger than zip64 limit, I refuse to process
15:32:01 <dauwhe> ... so I don't thing there's a serious limit in epub today
15:32:11 <dauwhe> tzviya: how would you modify the file size comment
15:32:29 <dauwhe> brady_duga: saying there's no limit is impossible because physics
15:32:41 <dauwhe> ... a really huge limit is fine
15:32:56 <tzviya> q?
15:32:58 <dauwhe> ... any limit we set today will be meaningless in five years
15:33:04 <dauwhe> tzviya: does that work for you
15:33:18 <dauwhe> HeatherF: I'm sad we can't just say, "Don't be stupid!"
15:33:30 <Jeff_Xu> q+
15:33:38 <tzviya> ack iv
15:33:39 <HeatherF> :-)
15:33:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: anything else, brady?
15:33:46 <dauwhe> ivan: there's a minor thing
15:33:57 <dauwhe> ... maybe we want to add possibility of heirarchy
15:34:05 <dauwhe> ... you already do this in edupub
15:34:16 <dauwhe> tzviya: I'll add this
15:34:22 <dauwhe> ivan: the other thing is more complicated
15:34:30 <ivan> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html
15:34:37 <dauwhe> ... I sent an email a few hours ago, early in the U.S. morning
15:34:54 <dauwhe> ... we have a separate issue in fragmentation, but the problem is interrelated
15:35:12 <dauwhe> ... [fragment IDs, unrelated to layout]
15:35:22 <dauwhe> ... problem is with online vs offline
15:35:40 <tzviya> email discussion: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jun/0001.html
15:35:53 <dauwhe> ... if there's no packaging, some of these issues disappear, says brady_duga
15:36:02 <dauwhe> ... so first question is, do we need a package at all?
15:36:09 <dauwhe> ... we had part of that question last week
15:36:21 <dauwhe> ... we had some consensus about needing a package
15:36:32 <tzviya> q?
15:36:37 <dauwhe> ... we need differentiation between publication as package and on web
15:36:41 <dauwhe> ... there are deep issues here
15:36:56 <dauwhe> tzviya: I've been in meetings all morning, but haven't read the email chain
15:37:04 <dauwhe> ... I think it needs to be a long discussion
15:37:12 <dauwhe> ... for purpose of requirements
15:37:15 <brady_duga> q+
15:37:24 <dauwhe> ... a package is necessary; I tried to capture it in first item
15:37:34 <dauwhe> ... I can break that into two items
15:38:00 <dauwhe> [uncomfortable silence]
15:38:02 <tzviya> ack jeff
15:38:12 <dauwhe> Jeff_Xu: First time for me at this meeting
15:38:20 <dauwhe> ... I have question about file size limitation
15:38:31 <dauwhe> ... even if OS can allow large package
15:38:50 <dauwhe> ... how to download package efficiently, is that in the scope of our requirements
15:39:18 <dauwhe> tzviya: I don't think we want to talk about specific component size limits
15:39:22 <dauwhe> ... things like change over time
15:39:30 <dauwhe> s/like/like that/
15:39:43 <dauwhe> ... if we say a video can only be 1g today
15:39:50 <dauwhe> ... in a few years the limit may be higher
15:40:04 <dauwhe> ... we're all in agreement that file size should not be specified
15:40:18 <dauwhe> Jeff_Xu: even with size limitations now, can be changed in future
15:40:37 <tzviya> ack br
15:40:37 <dauwhe> ... do we want to provide protocol to download large packaage separately
15:40:47 <dauwhe> brady_duga: I'm on queue for different reasons
15:41:27 <dauwhe> tzviya: if anyone has opinions on what we should be telling systems about downloading then please stand up
15:41:39 <dauwhe> brady_duga: other than best practices docs, there's not anything we tell people today
15:41:50 <dauwhe> Jeff_Xu: maybe it's not in scope
15:42:10 <dauwhe> ... when we download audio book or comic book it's really large
15:42:16 <dauwhe> ... can be really slow
15:42:35 <dauwhe> ... or maybe some other group should talk about this
15:42:45 <dauwhe> brady_duga: this is covered by streamable and random access
15:42:52 <dauwhe> Jeff_Xu: yes
15:42:54 <dauwhe> tzviya: OK
15:43:11 <dauwhe> brady_duga: do we need a packaging format? in some sense the answer is yes
15:43:17 <dauwhe> ... we have one today
15:43:27 <dauwhe> ... the question is, other than for portablility
15:43:52 <dauwhe> ... do I need a package if I'm not transferrring between people
15:44:01 <ivan> q+
15:44:12 <dauwhe> ... if I'm a reading system, I don't think we need a packaging format
15:44:29 <dauwhe> ... we don't need random access if we're just transferring things betweeen people
15:44:52 <dauwhe> ... but the reading system does need to support random access, but that could happen with expanded files
15:45:15 <dauwhe> ... my real comment is, do we need a packaging format for anything other than transferring between entities?
15:45:34 <tzviya> ack iv
15:45:39 <dauwhe> tzviya: more important for identity? So I can point to something in ten years. Maybe it's about archiving
15:46:04 <dauwhe> ivan: the whole idea, conceptually, of this epub+web story, is that the two cases you refer to
15:46:12 <dauwhe> ... I have book downloaded vs I have book on web
15:46:24 <dauwhe> ... there should be no difference between these two situations
15:46:40 <dauwhe> ... if book is completely online, then I agree for that purpose you don't need packaging
15:46:50 <dauwhe> ... in the sense of a zip or tar on a disk
15:47:14 <dauwhe> ... distinguish between physical packaging and logical entitiy
15:47:32 <dauwhe> ... the logical entity is a colleciton of files which together make a publication
15:47:40 <dauwhe> ... a "virtual package"
15:47:45 <dauwhe> ... we need to have a URI
15:47:53 <dauwhe> ... the discussion I started is around that
15:48:12 <dauwhe> ... I would like to see a URI for the package, and for each of the constituents, whether the package is virtual or not
15:48:13 <tzviya> q?
15:48:17 <dauwhe> ... and I"m not sure what that is
15:48:29 <dauwhe> ... how that translates into the requirements, I'm not sure
15:48:45 <dauwhe> brady_duga: the idea of this uri that's the same for server vs download, not sure how that works
15:48:56 <dauwhe> ... are you envisioning the uris are the same?
15:49:01 <tzviya> s/I"m/I'm
15:49:03 <dauwhe> ivan: the identification will be the same
15:49:19 <dauwhe> brady_duga: in one case I have authority in my url, in one I don't
15:49:29 <dauwhe> ivan: [crickets] :)
15:49:35 <dauwhe> ... not sure what is possible
15:50:06 <dauwhe> ... if one chapter refers to another, it should not be a problem with relative URIs
15:50:22 <dauwhe> ... if I use annotations, and I want them to work online and offline, not sure how to solve that
15:50:29 <dauwhe> ... what URI do I use for annotation?
15:50:45 <dauwhe> brady_duga: your first example is not in requirements
15:50:56 <dauwhe> ... on the 2nd case, I don't know how you solve that either
15:51:13 <dauwhe> tzviya: let's make that a requirement, even though I tried not to make the impossible a requirement
15:51:33 <dauwhe> brady_duga: this is already handled by OCF, require everything to be relative URLs
15:52:01 <dauwhe> [discussion of exact language of new requirement]
15:52:14 <brady_duga> Sorry, my call dropped
15:52:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: links remain stable whether publication is online or offline
15:52:33 <dauwhe> ... this seems more of an identifier requirement
15:52:40 <dauwhe> ... but they are linked
15:52:43 <TimCole> q+
15:52:50 <tzviya> ack Tim
15:52:56 <dauwhe> TimCole: it's part of the annotation problem
15:53:08 <dauwhe> ... do we envision that a package can be served at multiple places
15:53:22 <dauwhe> ... get chapter 1 from server A, get chapter 2 from server B
15:53:32 <dauwhe> ... in which case the relative URIs get very complex
15:53:44 <dauwhe> tzviya: I did add this as functional requirement
15:53:48 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements#Functional_Requirements_for_Packaging_Spec
15:54:00 <dauwhe> ... it's good there's a heated discussion
15:54:05 <dauwhe> ... please take a look at the doc
15:54:17 <dauwhe> ... the goal is to get a list together in the next few weeks
15:54:40 <dauwhe> q+
15:54:44 <tzviya> ack da
15:55:39 <dauwhe> dauwhe: will post interesting links from public-web-perf mailing list on their review of packaging
15:55:51 <dauwhe> tzviya: anything for next week?
15:56:13 <dauwhe> ... might be education or outreach or identifiers
15:56:18 <dauwhe> ???: I think identifiers
15:56:23 <dauwhe> tzviya: we have four minutes
15:56:27 <dauwhe> ... any last comments?
15:56:28 <ivan> s/???/Heather/
15:56:35 <dauwhe> [explosions]
15:56:41 <dauwhe> tzviya: thanks everyone
15:56:46 <dauwhe> [beeping]
15:56:51 <HeatherF> *LOL*
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15:57:03 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
15:57:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/06/01-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
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