13:59:12 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:59:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-irc 13:59:14 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:59:14 Zakim has joined #tt 13:59:16 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:59:16 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 1 minute 13:59:17 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:59:17 Date: 28 May 2015 13:59:59 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 14:00:06 +[Apple] 14:00:27 +nigel 14:01:21 Present: courtney, nigel 14:01:35 chair: nigel 14:01:42 scribe: nigel 14:01:46 +pal 14:01:52 zakim, Apple is courtney 14:01:52 +courtney; got it 14:01:52 + +1.720.897.aaaa 14:01:57 plh has joined #tt 14:01:58 Present+ pal 14:02:07 Present+ glenn 14:02:13 zakim, aaaa is glenn 14:02:13 +glenn; got it 14:03:06 Regrets: frans 14:03:08 atai2 has joined #tt 14:03:52 +Andreas 14:03:54 Present+ Andreas 14:04:32 Topic: This meeting 14:04:55 nigel: It's been a quiet couple of weeks. I'd like to discuss briefly the TTML2 Editorial Actions. AOB? 14:05:00 group: No AOB. 14:05:08 Topic: Action Items 14:05:13 pal has joined #tt 14:06:53 glenn: I've been doing a bit of work on Action-383 but have found no satisfactory conclusion to it yet. 14:06:55 action-383? 14:06:55 action-383 -- Glenn Adams to Missing XML declaration -- due 2015-04-30 -- OPEN 14:06:55 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/383 14:07:02 glenn: I'm still working on that one. 14:07:28 action-387? 14:07:28 action-387 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Collate list of potential implementors of imsc 1. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:07:28 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/387 14:07:51 pal: This is in progress. It's somewhat related to the plan for W3C to reach out to the implementors. 14:07:58 nigel: I think tmichel is back next week. 14:08:48 pal: Ok, I'll try to get this done and coordinate with tmichel. I want to avoid a lull after raising excitement levels with implementors. 14:09:47 action-396? 14:09:47 action-396 -- David Singer to Produce evidence of request for wide review for webvtt, for the archive -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:09:47 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/396 14:10:01 courtney: dsinger sent some emails this week to try to wrap this up - he's working on it. 14:10:34 Topic: Issues 14:10:45 glenn: I expect to file some new issues on TTML2 on the potential need for some additional features 14:11:02 ... related to handling corner cases with Ruby alignment. I don't have the data to create those yet. 14:11:24 ... Just to note the area that I'm looking at. There's a probable need for adding some additional support 14:11:42 ... for baseline alignment. Things get tricky with Ruby and textEmphasis handling baseline alignment 14:11:59 ... and generating even spacing for lineHeights whether there's Ruby present or not. That's the area 14:12:11 ... I'm referring to when I say we might need additional features. Both CSS and XSL-FO have similar 14:12:23 ... definitions of baseline properties that we can draw on for doing this. 14:12:44 ... The specific properties are three: "dominant" baseline which is used to express the dominant baseline 14:13:02 ... on the parent line area or on a child inline area. The next one is "alignment" baseline which is used to 14:13:18 ... express which baseline on the parent is to be used to align the child. The third is baseline shift or 14:13:36 ... baseline offset which is an additional movement of the baseline related to the other two. 14:13:57 ... Another thing I've been working on which is interesting is ipd and bpd on a span. It turns out I've 14:14:15 ... found a need for supporting struts, which are spans that have zero size in ipd or bpd. Right now we 14:14:29 ... effectively support them but don't say anything about them. Simply by supporting ipd and bpd on 14:14:45 ... span we support the semantics for struts but we don't talk about them anywhere. It turns out they 14:15:01 ... will probably be very useful for managing height of lines in horizontal writing modes and width in 14:15:04 ... vertical writing modes. 14:15:30 nigel: It sounds like a strut and a br are very similar things. 14:16:17 glenn: Not to me - br just inserts a hard line break. Does a br introduce any vertical space in a horizontal 14:16:55 ... writing mode? It does based on lineHeight, if it follows a previous br. The thing is that to alter the 14:17:10 ... height of a line without having any content in it, there's no way to do that today without using a strut. 14:17:26 ... You could alter all the lines on a p by changing the lineHeight property but you can't do it on a single 14:17:32 ... line. 14:17:50 ... We might also need to add to the condition system some new layout function expressions that 14:18:09 ... conditionalise application of styles based on layout states for example line-first, line-odd, line-even, 14:18:30 ... ruby-before, ruby-after etc. All these things have been coming out of work I've been doing with edge 14:18:34 ... cases on ruby recently. 14:19:06 nigel: I'm not aware of any other work on issues. 14:20:01 Topic: IMSC 1 CR2 14:20:17 pal: I think the next step is to work with thierry and others to get input from non-W3C members on this. 14:21:02 nigel: Is there anything specifically that you think would help from W3C? 14:21:18 pal: As we discussed in Las Vegas, this is a W3C spec but many of the implementors are not W3 members. 14:21:34 ... They may be a little concerned about sharing implementation results with W3C, putting myself in their shoes. 14:21:55 ... How will the results be used, why am I doing it, etc are not immediately obvious. Since the process 14:22:09 ... is contingent on those results we might be in a catch-22. My recollection of the conclusion from the 14:22:23 ... discussion in Vegas is it might make sense for W3C to reach out to those implementors and explain 14:22:33 ... why their input is valuable and how it would be used. 14:23:06 nigel: I'm fine with that - if there are implementors who have concerns then we should be understanding 14:23:12 ... those concerns and trying to address them. 14:24:05 andreas: Do we have the idea of a webinar or something similar to explain IMSC to get more attention and explain more? 14:24:22 pal: I think somehow tmichel or maybe plh implied that they had ideas on what to do. 14:24:41 andreas: I think many people are interested in that but maybe wouldn't join a bigger conference. 14:24:55 ... Half an hour or an hour to explain what's going on would be good. Mike Dolan once did this for 14:25:11 ... SMPTE-TT which was successful. If you can record it and make it available later then it would be very helpful. 14:25:24 pal: +1 Let me take a note of that for when I follow up with thierry. 14:25:35 ... At least it should be a possibility we cover. 14:26:16 Topic: TTML2 Editorial Actions 14:26:51 nigel: Has anyone looked at the ednotes spreadsheet and decided to volunteer? 14:26:59 pal: I've started looking at my one and have a question about it. 14:27:04 nigel: Me too for one of mine. 14:27:36 pal: I generated a sample image for §10.2.10 disparity and glenn, are you wedded to the example TTML? 14:27:48 ... For instance the value of the disparity and the fact that there's a single image? 14:28:04 glenn: Sure, go ahead and change the example or mock-up to what you think is appropriate. 14:28:12 ... You should have that flexibility. 14:28:25 pal: Thanks. Specifically, a disparity of 0.7% is too small to see, and needs to be increased, and also 14:28:39 ... I'm thinking to have 2 regions, one with zero disparity and the other with disparity so that you can 14:28:46 ... easily see the difference between the two renderings. 14:28:49 glenn: Thank you. 14:30:00 nigel: My one was on system model, §1.1 Figure 1. We know we want to change DFXP -> TTML. But 14:30:07 ... there are other things we might want to bring in. 14:30:21 nigel: The first question is should profiles be in the system model? 14:30:45 glenn: Interesting idea. The system model right now focuses on data flow and types of data. I would 14:30:59 ... almost suggest a different diagram. If you mix profiles then it might get too busy. I would suggest 14:32:27 ... experimenting and seeing what makes sense. 14:32:41 nigel: My next question is does it make sense to include transformation processors and presentation 14:32:54 ... processors in the system model, possibly relating the content and processor profiles in there. 14:33:56 glenn: I would say yes, and also including ISG generation as an option in the flow for transcoding. 14:34:18 ... We effectively have that informally in TTML1, though without a concrete representation. From a reader's 14:34:30 ... perspective, having an illustration somewhere that shows something about that process visually 14:35:12 ... would be useful. You could certainly add that into the system model. 14:35:27 nigel: I'm also wondering if we should explicitly name the flow from ISG into HTML/CSS to help folk 14:35:44 ... understand how TTML presentation fits into the web context. 14:35:47 glenn: Yes, exactly. 14:36:08 nigel: Okay well I'll attempt to do this and make it available for review. 14:37:28 nigel: Going back to the spreadsheet, has anyone had a hard time accessing it? 14:37:37 group: No (silently!) 14:38:59 nigel: Looking at the agenda, I think there's no more to cover this week, so we'll draw to a close. 14:39:21 ... Just to remind everyone I'm still looking for a chair for 18th and 25th June. 14:39:29 pal: I'm happy to be available on standby for that. 14:39:35 nigel: Thank you very much pierre! 14:39:59 nigel: Thanks everyone, meeting same time next week. [adjourns meeting] 14:40:01 -glenn 14:40:02 -courtney 14:40:03 -Andreas 14:40:05 -pal 14:40:09 -nigel 14:40:10 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 14:40:10 Attendees were nigel, pal, courtney, +1.720.897.aaaa, glenn, Andreas 14:40:17 rrsagent, make logs public 14:40:22 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:40:22 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-minutes.html nigel 14:44:24 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 14:44:26 rrsagent, generate minutes 14:44:26 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/28-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:38:08 Zakim has left #tt