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19:00:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/27-webperf-irc
19:00:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
19:00:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be web-per
19:00:41 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see RWC_web-per()3:00PM already started
19:00:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Performance Working Group Teleconference
19:00:42 <trackbot> Date: 27 May 2015
19:00:59 <Zakim> +Plh
19:01:09 <plh> zakim, drop plh
19:01:09 <Zakim> Plh is being disconnected
19:01:10 <Zakim> -Plh
19:01:12 <Zakim> +Plh
19:01:55 <plh> zakim, ??p1 is Ilya
19:01:55 <Zakim> +Ilya; got it
19:02:40 <Zakim> + +33.1.56.69.aaaa
19:02:57 <yoav> Zakim, aaaa is yoav
19:02:57 <Zakim> +yoav; got it
19:03:27 <plh> agenda?
19:04:51 <plh> Item 8 will be done by email
19:05:00 <plh> zaki, drop agendum 8
19:05:04 <plh> zakim, drop agendum 8
19:05:04 <Zakim> agendum 8, Clarify "zero time" in Workers, dropped
19:05:14 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
19:05:14 <Zakim> agendum 1. "attribute filtering" taken up [from plh]
19:06:00 <plh> Present+ Justin
19:06:31 <plh> Justin: using a filter object, we filter the entries. by people want to use a generic object
19:06:43 <plh> ... but it doesn't mean all properties are relevant
19:06:53 <plh> ... so we try to specifiy the property are important
19:07:09 <plh> s/ty are/ties that are/
19:07:25 <plh> ... so people will make mistake, like passing a window object
19:07:31 <plh> ... bad things can happen
19:08:05 <plh> ... when we define a dictionary, we define a specific set of properties
19:08:34 <plh> ... we would then allow the user to use the returned array and use filter() on it
19:08:46 <plh> ... counter proposal is performance
19:09:01 <plh> ... we don't know any perf issue in IE
19:09:11 <plh> s/proposal/argument/
19:09:54 <plh> Todd: in perf observers, we use lazy evaluation. we don't marshall it unless it's needed
19:10:52 <plh> Justin: WebIDL doesn't support generic property bag. we would have to define the algorithm to access the properties of the object.
19:11:15 <plh> Ilya: the only question was interop with User Timing
19:11:40 <plh> ... some request to extend User Timing with arbitrary attributes
19:12:02 <plh> ... if we go down that path, we'll have custom attributes
19:12:17 <plh> ... would be nice for users to filter those
19:12:44 <plh> ... if we namespace them however, the user would have to filter manually
19:13:19 <plh> Justin: we could have a filter object to be strongly type, with custom keys and values as DOMString
19:17:20 <plh> Plh: only DOMString for values?
19:17:32 <plh> Justin: yes, the convertion should work fine
19:18:51 <plh> Ilya: sounds like we're ok with typed dictionary, with current defined attributes of all entry types
19:19:22 <plh> ... for the sequence, won't add it yet but we could extend with .keys/.values in the future if needed
19:19:37 <plh> ... I'll update the pull request
19:19:57 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
19:19:57 <Zakim> agendum 2. "setImmediate usage" taken up [from plh]
19:20:10 <plh> Todd: we're got telemetry for setImmediate
19:20:18 <plh> ... 4% for navigation in the past 2 weeks
19:20:33 <plh> ... higher that we expected in fact
19:20:38 <plh> ... so clearly it's used
19:21:42 <plh> Ilya: should we take it to the list?
19:21:52 <plh> Todd: ok, will follow up there
19:21:59 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
19:21:59 <Zakim> agendum 3. "frame timing + :visited" taken up [from plh]
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19:25:26 <plh> Plh: [3 path forward]
19:25:34 <plh> Justin: people timing differences
19:25:51 <plh> ... if we filter out, they may still be able to detect
19:26:23 <plh> Todd: 2 timing info: render and composite
19:27:34 <plh> Justin: you can imagine forcing complex style and determine timing information
19:27:45 <plh> .., like transition state change
19:29:07 <plh> Yoav: so this applies to new links added to the page anyway
19:29:36 <plh> Ilya: if you try to apply complex style to generate timing attack, we'll filter those out
19:29:52 <plh> Justin: we can provide a list of our filtered properties
19:30:09 <plh> ... anything that change shapes will be suppressed
19:30:25 <plh> ... dotted borders, etc.
19:30:45 <plh> ... will have to go back to check
19:31:23 <plh> Todd: would be helpful to mention that
19:31:43 <plh> Ilya: so IE does not update the link if href changes
19:31:59 <plh> ... did it cause any dev feedback?
19:32:19 <plh> Justin: depending on our you recycle the DOM, you'll get the update
19:33:08 <plh> ... for visited links, we do not render visited and then we go back and rerender them
19:33:39 <plh> ... we can provide more details
19:35:54 <plh> ... if you always rerender the links, you can put 10,000 of them and measure the difference
19:37:11 <plh> Ilya: one solution was to disable link painting if frame timing is enabled, but it was ruled out because FT should desactive other features
19:39:34 <plh> Justin: [on the use cases for :visited] it doesn't seem unreasonnable that, when the page is live, the painting based on user history is disabled
19:41:29 <plh> .. if you click on a link, we'll set the visited flag on the click action
19:42:36 <plh> Ilya: so, depending on the DOM update path, you take the history into account?
19:43:23 <plh> Justin: the only thing that would update the link state would be user update interaction
19:44:00 <plh> ... we're already disabling those state in private mode
19:45:42 <plh> Todd: we'll follow up in the github issue
19:47:21 <plh> zakim, move to next agendum
19:47:21 <Zakim> agendum 4. "is domLoading useful?" taken up [from plh]
19:47:51 <plh> Todd: domLoading is internal to implementation
19:47:59 <plh> ... you don't learn much from this value
19:48:12 <plh> ... I would proposing to get rid of it
19:48:24 <plh> ... but Ilya indicated that it will cause some pain
19:48:37 <plh> ... so proposal is to update the spec with a Note
19:48:49 <plh> ... ie deprecate via spec
19:49:14 <plh> Ilya: that's the minimum pain. doesn't solve the issue but it will be documented
19:49:38 <plh> Yoav: I'm ok with spec update but should we add console messages as well?
19:50:01 <plh> Ilya: might be difficult because you're getting a bag of values
19:50:53 <Zakim> + +1.310.310.aabb
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19:52:01 <plh> Ilya: we should add the note in the spec and the UA is free to add the console warning
19:52:09 <plh> plh: I'll propose a note
19:52:34 <plh> Todd: in Edge, it will be the same as responseStart
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19:53:53 <plh> Ilya: I'm curious how it will impact developers
19:54:02 <plh> ... we should announce the change in Edge on the list
19:54:17 <plh> ... see if people scream on the list, and revisit depending on feedback
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19:54:46 <plh> agenda?
19:55:14 <plh> zakim, take up agendum 6
19:55:14 <Zakim> agendum 6. "preconnect - shipping the non-contentious parts" taken up [from plh]
19:55:33 <plh> Yoav: currently, we'
19:56:07 <plh> ... maybe we shouldn't block shipping preconnect for non-anonymous connection
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19:57:19 <plh> Ilya: preconnect is a hint. as such, you're not guaranteed anything, ie not breaking contracts
19:57:34 <plh> ... my concern is creating unnecessary confusion
19:57:52 <plh> ... like if a dev uses for webfont, it won't work and folks will be confused
19:58:17 <plh> ... firefox has plan to ship preconnect without cross origin in 39
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19:58:28 <plh> ... I pinged them and waiting for a reply
19:58:45 <plh> ... so confusion and perception issue on my side
19:58:53 <plh> Yoav: I think we can mitigate it
19:59:09 <plh> ... by making is clear it doesn't work for fonts
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20:00:05 <plh> Ilya: how long do we need to resolve the privacy link-ability question?
20:00:34 <yoav> yoav has joined #webperf
20:00:34 <plh> ... I'll nodge Ryan and see if we can get something up
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20:03:25 <plh> Ilya: for v1, we could land prefetch, and have a separate issue for preconnect
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20:04:48 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
20:04:50 <Zakim> -yoav
20:04:50 <Zakim> - +1.310.310.aabb
20:04:51 <Zakim> -Plh
20:04:53 <Zakim> -Ilya
20:04:55 <Zakim> RWC_web-per()3:00PM has ended
20:04:55 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Plh, Ilya, +33.1.56.69.aaaa, yoav, +1.310.310.aabb
20:04:57 <plh> rrsagent, generate minutes
20:04:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/27-webperf-minutes.html plh
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