14:10:35 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
14:10:35 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-wai-wcag-irc
14:10:37 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:10:37 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #wai-wcag
14:10:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
14:10:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 50 minutes
14:10:40 <trackbot> Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
14:10:40 <trackbot> Date: 26 May 2015
14:10:56 <Kenny> zakim, agenda?
14:10:56 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
14:11:08 <Kenny> agenda+  Charter survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/
14:11:25 <Kenny> agenda+  Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted
14:16:24 <Kenny> regrets+ Jonathan_Avila
14:53:58 <laura> laura has joined #wai-wcag
14:54:21 <Makoto> Makoto has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:15 <AWK> AWK has joined #wai-wcag
14:58:31 <AWK> Zakim, agenda?
14:58:31 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
14:58:32 <Zakim> 1. Charter survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/ [from Kenny]
14:58:32 <Zakim> 2. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
14:58:53 <AWK> Chair: AWK
14:59:46 <Joshue108> Joshue108 has joined #wai-wcag
15:00:39 <AWK> Present+ AWK, Joshue, Michael Gower, Makoto, Laura, MichaelC
15:00:56 <AWK> Present+ Louis_Cheng
15:01:11 <Joshue108> zakim, agenda?
15:01:11 <Zakim> I see 2 items remaining on the agenda:
15:01:12 <Zakim> 1. Charter survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/ [from Kenny]
15:01:12 <Zakim> 2. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
15:01:27 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
15:01:34 <Zakim> + +1.313.390.aaaa
15:02:00 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
15:03:11 <Zakim> - +1.313.390.aaaa
15:03:13 <Zakim> WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended
15:03:13 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.313.390.aaaa
15:04:02 <Louis_Cheng> Louis_Cheng has joined #wai-wcag
15:05:07 <AWK> Regrets+ Jon_Avila
15:06:28 <Loretta> Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
15:07:00 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List
15:07:10 <Joshue108> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:07:10 <Zakim> apparently WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has ended, Joshue108
15:07:13 <Zakim> On IRC I see Loretta, Louis_Cheng, marcjohlic, Joshue108, AWK, Makoto, laura, Zakim, RRSAgent, MichaelC, yatil, Kenny, trackbot
15:08:40 <Loretta> I never received the original agenda email
15:09:30 <Joshue108> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/
15:11:01 <AWK> Scribe: Mike_Elledge
15:11:14 <Mike_Elledge> Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag
15:11:17 <AWK> Scribe: Mike_Elledge
15:11:34 <yatil> present+ EricE, Mike_Elledge
15:11:58 <Joshue108> present+ Joshue108
15:12:20 <Loretta> present+ Loretta
15:12:24 <Kenny> present+ Kenny
15:12:32 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Snce vakim doesn't keep track need to have everyone type "present+".
15:12:36 <marcjohlic> present+ marcjohlic
15:12:41 <yatil> s/vakim/zakim/
15:12:46 <Makoto> present+ Makoto_Ueki
15:12:49 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Thank you.
15:12:52 <Joshue108> s/Snce vakim/Since zakim
15:13:27 <Mike_Elledge> AK: present+<space>your name
15:14:02 <Joshue108> http://irc.w3.org
15:14:04 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Or can go to IRC: irc.w3.org<http://irc.w3.org>  port: 6665 channel #wai-wcag
15:15:03 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Did anyone get agenda Friday morning?
15:15:11 <Mike_Elledge> <crickets>
15:15:17 <dmacdona> dmacdona has joined #wai-wcag
15:15:24 <dmacdona> test
15:15:35 <yatil> s/test/
15:16:00 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Apparently some people didn't recieve it, including archive. Not sure what to do about it.
15:16:08 <AWK> Zakim, take up item 1
15:16:08 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Charter survey: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/" taken up [from Kenny]
15:16:17 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Ppl on call should look at items.
15:16:17 <AWK> REsults: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/wcagcharter20150526/results
15:17:02 <AWK> Charter: http://www.w3.org/2015/04/draft-wcag-charter
15:17:15 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Focus is draft charter. Talked last week then Judy. Great if ppl could look at it. Now in IRC.
15:17:25 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html MichaelC
15:18:41 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Changes are clarifications under scope, and 1 and  2 under scope. Extensions. Clarifications to language so clearer. Important that none of the changes say group must do anything. Just clarification about what group and extensiosn could do.
15:19:35 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Ensure extensions are optional. Some concerns that extension would become part of WCAG 2.0. Instead, they are additional and optional. If ppl just wanted to conform to WCAG 2.0, can do that.
15:19:59 <dmacdona> q+
15:20:05 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Paying attention to extension is optional. Corps or gov'ts can say their rules also include extensions.
15:20:21 <Joshue108> ack dav
15:20:22 <Mike_Elledge> AK: But not required to.
15:20:26 <Joshue108> ack dma
15:20:41 <Joshue108> s/extensiosn/extension
15:21:03 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Like what we're trying to. Confusion over optional and advisory. Perhaps say "Will not affect WCAG performance."
15:21:18 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Does "normative" help confusion?
15:21:36 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Nervous that no one does anything with advisory.
15:22:14 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Think it's fine. Gives room to do what we need to do while guarding against unintended consequents.  Want to define immediate work that needs to be done.
15:22:29 <Mike_Elledge> DM: So long as we understand.
15:22:43 <Joshue108> q?
15:22:45 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Won't be the go-to doc for ppl using WCAG.
15:22:51 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Other questions?
15:23:49 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Extensions do not effect any current WCAG 2 claim. Addresses concern that extension would change conformance of WCAG 2.
15:24:48 <Mike_Elledge> AK: What does that mean wrt WCAG 2. May have to review SC, level (A, AA, AAA), but won't affect WCAG 2 conformance.
15:25:01 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Questions, comments?
15:26:43 <Mike_Elledge> AK:  Deliverables section. 2. Describes how techniques will be managed. Worth noting that nothing is required by WCAG WG.
15:26:52 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Questions?
15:27:32 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Anything else?
15:27:44 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Not that I can think of.
15:27:54 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Just ask that we give our approval.
15:28:19 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Any object to approving draft working group charter?
15:28:45 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Question about milestones.
15:29:39 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Nothing at this point on low vision. Can't really set a delivery date since just started. Mobile is April 2018. Wary about adding anything that is beyond data of charger.
15:29:47 <Joshue108> q?
15:29:52 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Doesn't mean that we can't update it.
15:30:15 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Could be others; this doesn't restrict us.
15:30:27 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Objections to approving charter.
15:30:41 <Mike_Elledge> Resolution: draft charter approved by working group.
15:31:18 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Somewhere Judy is sighing a huge sigh of relief...
15:31:25 <AWK> Zakim, close this item
15:31:25 <Zakim> agendum 1 closed
15:31:27 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Or waiting another shoe to drop!
15:31:27 <Zakim> I see 1 item remaining on the agenda:
15:31:27 <Zakim> 2. Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted [from Kenny]
15:31:52 <AWK> Zakim, take up next item
15:31:52 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Reviewing Post-WCAG 2 issues: https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted" taken up [from Kenny]
15:32:06 <Joshue108> q?
15:32:58 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #wai-wcag
15:33:06 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Thanks for everyone who has looked at wiki page. See where we are on it wrt different extensions.
15:33:42 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Lewis?
15:34:11 <Mike_Elledge> LC: Wasn't clear. Wanted to look into it more. Other sources?
15:34:19 <Mike_Elledge> AK: We'll come back to that one.
15:34:46 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Looks like 32 is new one. Pretty good shape.
15:35:05 <Mike_Elledge> AK: David, Kathy (3, 4, 5). Will look at those?
15:35:33 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Will put on list again. Similar to 8 (Louis' item).
15:36:08 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
15:36:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
15:36:12 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Post WCAG wiki had user agent and user support to improve HTML, but no more detail than that. What did we mean?
15:36:31 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Could you describe again.
15:36:39 <jamesn> present+ James_Nurthen
15:36:59 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Improve keyboard experience for html. Is it not specific enough to address? Or what we meant?
15:37:20 <Mike_Elledge> MC: More of a user agent implementation issue. Don't see how it is a WG issue.
15:37:40 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Sounds like getting aria to do things.
15:38:38 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Should be able to navigate using controls. How the user agent implements. If user agents don't provide keyboard support then user won't be able to use, but not a WCAG issue.
15:38:52 <Mike_Elledge> MC: It's really a UAG issue and browser developers.
15:39:04 <Mike_Elledge> JO: A WCAG next or WAI 2020 issue.
15:39:56 <Mike_Elledge> AK: In agreement as well. What do we put, then?
15:40:02 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Where did it come from?
15:40:24 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Post wCAG wiki page.
15:40:33 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Where to add a challenge.
15:41:21 <Mike_Elledge> JO: IS it a call to action? Cld be interesting for Louis to look at areas where KB a11y is falling down, where implementations have been extended (to address them).
15:41:56 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Don't want to send you on a wild goose chase. If you see a clear path to things we could due would be helpful.
15:42:07 <Mike_Elledge> LC:  Will do.
15:42:24 <Mike_Elledge> AK: David want to talk about next one.
15:43:27 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Will read. 2007 Any AT supported meta-data. Hoping that meta-data would become more prevalent. But nothing has been done. Don't think we should take into extension.  Reason for not in 2007 still holds true.
15:43:32 <Joshue108> q?
15:43:38 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Do you have a specific example?
15:43:48 <laura> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-comments-wcag20/2007Nov/0120.html
15:44:06 <Mike_Elledge> DM: There's link there. Comment still true.
15:44:20 <Joshue108> q+
15:44:50 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Nothing I've seen at conferences. We're more of a vetting organization, than creators of technology.
15:45:00 <Mike_Elledge> MC: W3C has both roles.
15:45:15 <Mike_Elledge> DM: But don't think it's a role for our working group.
15:45:45 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Wld argue that WG has authority to push accessibility guidelines. More vetters than pushers, but not a requirement.
15:46:10 <Mike_Elledge> AK: What was being asked for?
15:46:56 <Joshue108> ack me
15:46:57 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Remember that metadata was a big thing, but not sure what was being addressed. Thinks like character encoding, or machine readable conformance claim; stuff that would go in head of page.
15:47:35 <Mike_Elledge> MC: If about RDF could be within or outside of page. "Page is suitable, or conforms to WCAG" but no standard formats for that.
15:48:09 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Someone asked if Google could search for accessible sites? Nothing there now. What was being talking about.
15:49:04 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Maybe shouldn't be too quick to dismiss. May have to do with specific user needs, GPII, user interface that knows your requirements right away. Again, something that hasn't had a killer app in past ten years.
15:49:04 <dmacdona> q+
15:49:21 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Not sure how a mechanism would address it, but still important.
15:49:43 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Need more info from cognitive group to see if something they're talking about.
15:50:05 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Maybe add cognitive to category or change category to cogntive.
15:50:27 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Gut says it would extend WCAG.
15:50:47 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Adding not modifying requirement.
15:51:15 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Not thinking of metadata terms, but plug-in.
15:51:59 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Metadata can mean many things. Discussion needs to go on with experts to see how to fill gaps. May have same conversation in 10 years.
15:52:29 <Mike_Elledge> DM:  Should connect Lydia and Loretta. Both into RDF.
15:53:10 <Mike_Elledge> AK: If we get through list let's send as a group of items that would like input from cognitive group.
15:53:17 <Joshue108> s/Lydia and Loretta/Liddy & Lisa
15:53:34 <Joshue108> q?
15:53:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Identified items as cognitive.
15:54:24 <Mike_Elledge> AK: #6. How to navigate through page without tabbing through all controls. Is this a WCAG thing or user agent?
15:54:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Kenny?
15:55:28 <Mike_Elledge> K: Yes. I htink that WCAG 2 cover tihs discussion, 2.4...
15:56:16 <Mike_Elledge> AK: We have section where keyboard controls not being used, so an author implementation. Do we need to provide standards for that?
15:56:42 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Does that tie into browser extensions, using headings for navigation?
15:57:23 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Yes. But seems like heading seems like a browser thing, but controls user agents don't have capabiltiy.
15:58:02 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Seems like it's a patchwork based on what user has. Should WCAG be defining the strategies?
15:58:51 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Currently say have control through user interface, but don't get into how it's done. Doesn't sound like a success criteria.
15:59:07 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Maybe add a new technique (like Paypal).
15:59:33 <Mike_Elledge> AK: How to mark these so we know we've looked at them.
15:59:49 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Another column to show they've been discussed?
16:00:04 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Unfortunately adding a column is a nightmare.
16:00:52 <Mike_Elledge> MC: Can create an add-on into browser to allow WYIWYG editing in comment field. Extensions to wiki platform, but not added by W3C. Browser add-on only path we can take.
16:01:28 <Mike_Elledge> AK: We'll check into it. Say somewhere clearly that Row 6 seems to call out for additional techniques, rather than chantes to wCAG itself.
16:01:41 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Row 7 as well, keyboard standards for access.
16:01:42 <dmacdona> just tested skipto http://paypal.github.io/skipto/ it skips to a section of the page well but no way to return to it. Backspace doesn't bring focus back there...
16:01:42 <Joshue108> +1
16:01:57 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Row 8, passing on.
16:02:31 <Mike_Elledge> Ak: Row 9, tag type sources. Low vision, dyslexia. Seems to fit with UAG. My gut as well.
16:02:59 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Not something that author can control. Author could offer complicated style sheet, but really seems UAG.
16:03:41 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Wayne Dick has this on his list for desired improvements to low vision viewing.
16:03:50 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Wants user to say font style?
16:04:37 <Mike_Elledge> AK: A variety of display alternatives. Fonts, line spacing, text size. Having control over the presentation. Challenging for WCAG since we're technology independant. Not always HTML.
16:04:59 <Mike_Elledge> AK: But can say user agent should be able to make these changes. Challenge is they don't.
16:05:14 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Next is line spacing.
16:05:18 <laura> David: http://paypal.github.io/skipto/#a-nameaccess-keysaccess-keysa
16:06:23 <Mike_Elledge> K: I think item 9 and 10 are similar.
16:06:55 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Have to add a status column to wiki. But those are more user agent focus.
16:08:24 <Mike_Elledge> AK: 11. Enlargement to link type sources. Started with comment from Wayne. Simplest to adopt text from 1.4.2 from UAG. Users don't get good solution if not paid attention to.
16:08:35 <AWK> http://www.w3.org/TR/UAAG20/#sc_142
16:08:40 <Joshue108> q?
16:09:40 <Mike_Elledge> AK: If a low-vision extension (see link above), which says user can control may presentation elements. Would definitely be an extension and wouldn't affect fallback. But lots of questions how achievable it would be by authors.
16:09:49 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Thoughts?
16:10:01 <Mike_Elledge> Laura: I think you covered it.
16:11:16 <Mike_Elledge> AK: #12. New content from user. Page changes up or down the page. Do we need to address that information needs to not just be available, but to make users aware of new content. Definitely be an extension.
16:11:32 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Would not impact fallback to WCAG 2.0.
16:12:45 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Need group's comments to address this. A first cut to making experience better.
16:12:51 <Joshue108> ack dmac
16:12:57 <dmacdona> take me ooff
16:13:22 <Mike_Elledge> JO: DK how this extends to WCAG. Seems to  fall under existing SC (2.2). Addressed by current canon.
16:14:55 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Paragraph, button, paragraph, button, or short sentence with "Read More".  Tends to be clear enough. What if instead something else changes. Add to cart, changes from 0 to 1. If don't get feedback that it's changed does it violate WCAG.
16:15:18 <Mike_Elledge> ? Isnt' same as someone else using the cart?
16:15:57 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Booking a flight to LAX, can see on screen that it's changed. Doesn't screen reader need to know as well.
16:16:38 <Mike_Elledge> ? When it's below the page have to be careful to alret changes could be annoying.
16:17:47 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: New content outside of the current viewport: above a problem. But not below.  Who wants to be notified about things changing below screen. Conflicts with progressive disclosure.
16:18:00 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Does WCAG not already address this.
16:18:06 <dmacdona> great term! progressive disclosure. Let's formalize that.
16:18:43 <dmacdona> q+
16:18:44 <Mike_Elledge> ? change in state should be announced by screen reader. Make distinction between content that is announced (like accordian) or that is truly new.
16:18:52 <Mike_Elledge> q+
16:19:09 <Mike_Elledge> JO: If content covered by 1.4.2.
16:19:38 <Mike_Elledge> MJ: Not sure--how do we know that it will be announced.
16:19:59 <AWK> Ack dav
16:20:00 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Is this already dealt with.
16:21:11 <AWK> Ack mike
16:21:11 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Like Progressive Disclosure as term. When talk to developers they will sometimes have the info appear behind current focus. Seems an important distinction.
16:21:16 <jamesn> this is what aria-controls is for :)
16:22:36 <Joshue108> +1 to mike
16:23:19 <Mike_Elledge> ME: How much info to give user. Do we need to provide feedback if person is expecting change? I would err on side of too much info.
16:23:53 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Whether it's voiced out or not is a separate question.
16:24:24 <Mike_Elledge> JO: I think the crux is that it's outside of current viewport. Whether it is depends on whether you have screen enlarger, for example.
16:24:42 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Don't know how you could check that.
16:25:09 <Mike_Elledge> AK: #13. Current and emerging technology about CAPTCHA.
16:26:03 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Don't see it going away, but there are a variety of techniques.  Could say something more. Affects cognitive, for example, may be more difficult depending on user.
16:26:18 <Mike_Elledge> Laura: Not accessible to some users.
16:26:42 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Was confused whether on that platform.
16:27:01 <Mike_Elledge> Laura: Under Google domain it works. But not otherwise.
16:27:12 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Haven't seen this test.
16:27:34 <dmacdona> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Captcha_Alternatives_and_thoughts
16:27:40 <Mike_Elledge> ? Only seen good things mentioned about Google captcha.
16:27:46 <laura> Sina Bahram’s test http://sndup.net/d/8g2w/
16:28:28 <Mike_Elledge> JO: Important, but have to be more specific. Don't want to be so challenging that hurts some users, but have to be sufficient to be effective.
16:29:15 <Mike_Elledge> ? Instead of using POUR, using an anonymizing service. Techniques to make sure you're not a hacker are the same as those that anonymize.
16:29:40 <Mike_Elledge> DM: Have to specify conditions where you get that result and where you don't.
16:30:04 <Joshue108> s/POUR/TOR
16:30:14 <Mike_Elledge> DM: It's an mp3 download where SB shows how it works on his keyboard.
16:30:40 <Mike_Elledge> AK: If were to add would not affect fallback or conflict with existing.
16:30:41 <laura> Sina Bahram argues the CAPTCHA in general is a flawed premise.
16:30:53 <Mike_Elledge> AK: Finished with #13. Enough for today.
16:31:31 <Mike_Elledge> AK: If you have signed up for anything in second section will have to review. So please get to it.
16:31:35 <laura> bye
16:33:00 <Mike_Elledge> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:33:00 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html Mike_Elledge
16:35:08 <Mike_Elledge> trackbot, end meeting
16:35:08 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
16:35:08 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
16:35:16 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
16:35:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-wai-wcag-minutes.html trackbot
16:35:17 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
16:35:17 <RRSAgent> I see no action items