12:54:27 RRSAgent has joined #dpub 12:54:27 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-irc 12:54:34 rrsagent, set log public 12:54:57 meeting: DPUB IG F2F, 2015-06-26 12:54:59 mgylling has joined #dpub 12:55:01 Zakim has joined #dpub 12:55:08 Chair: Tzviya, Markus 12:55:14 Karen has joined #dpub 12:55:19 dauwhe has joined #dpub 12:55:25 Agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details 12:55:34 ivan has changed the topic to: agenda: https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details 12:55:48 rrsagent, draft minutes 12:55:48 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan 12:56:10 tzviya has joined #dpub 13:06:42 present+ Karen 13:06:47 present+ Brady 13:06:58 present+ Bill_Kasdorf 13:07:13 present+ Clappiere 13:07:19 present+ dkaplan 13:07:30 present+ patrickKeating 13:07:44 present+ georgeKerscher 13:08:19 present+ PatrickJohnston 13:08:35 present+ RalphSwick 13:08:50 present+ Dave_Cramer 13:09:07 present+ MarkusGylling 13:09:10 clapierre has joined #DPUB 13:09:26 present+ IvanHerman 13:09:38 present+ RickJohnson 13:09:45 present+ TzviyaSiegman 13:09:49 HeatherF has joined #dpub 13:09:57 present+ HeatherFlanagan 13:10:07 zakim, who is here? 13:10:07 sorry, tzviya, I don't know what conference this is 13:10:09 On IRC I see HeatherF, clapierre, tzviya, dauwhe, Karen, Zakim, mgylling, RRSAgent, ivan, liam, iank, plinss, astearns, mihnea_____, rego, dkaplan3_, trackbot 13:11:25 present+ nickRuffilo 13:12:30 brady_duga has joined #dpub 13:12:41 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub 13:13:02 Scribenick: Karen 13:13:15 Topic: Packaging for the Web 13:13:30 Tzviya: There are a lot of slides, we are looking for feedback from you today 13:13:38 …You have heard us talk a lot about packaging 13:13:41 …what is it? 13:13:50 [slide 2] 13:14:05 [Tzviya reads definition] 13:14:45 [pause for AV adjustment] 13:15:23 …packaging mechanisms offer efficiencies and improved user interface 13:15:35 …I put together basic criteria and would like feedback 13:15:48 q+ 13:16:03 Deb: You did not include video 13:16:24 Tzviya: yes, that's right 13:16:54 Ivan: Nobody on phone for the time being 13:16:56 s/video/streamability 13:16:57 s/video/streamability/ 13:17:04 Ralph has joined #dpub 13:17:12 [slide 3] 13:17:29 …these are the requirements I put together and curious to know if I left anything out 13:17:47 q- 13:17:49 Deborah mentioned streamability which I used to think was part of it, but not 13:17:51 q+ 13:18:02 Nick: How does a package feel about being incomplete 13:18:13 …should it be complete to be considered; someone extracts someone from EPUB 13:18:18 …so open file, and not there 13:18:24 q+ 13:18:25 Bill: set of minimum requirements? 13:18:30 Tzviya: Scope statement? 13:18:35 Nick: yes, basic file points to OPF 13:18:49 …declared it should be within this package so then it's not complete 13:19:04 Tzviya: either a manifest or @ being missins 13:19:19 Nick: anything required by reader system or has been defined by those required files; two tiers 13:19:28 Tzviya: What is the purpose of having an incomplete package? 13:19:42 …perhaps not having a complete book, but I have defined my table of contents 13:19:53 …i don't see much value, but maybe someone has another perspective 13:20:01 q? 13:20:03 Ralph: what UA does is up to the agent 13:20:14 ack dauwhe 13:20:14 ack Dave 13:20:21 philm has joined #dpub 13:20:22 Dave: one and two look more important than 3 and 4 13:20:27 phil_m has joined #dpub 13:20:41 Brady: are these a basic criteria for what you laid out in your defnition? 13:20:43 q+ 13:20:49 …Is is fundamentally required? 13:21:06 Brady: which parts require access to components without transversing the entire package 13:21:14 ack mgylling 13:21:27 Markus: This is not a complete list of functional requirements 13:21:41 …to Nick's question about completeness is Nick's question about digital signatures 13:21:50 …We have listed that in OCF functionality 13:22:01 …ability of package to have static location to find a digital signature 13:22:05 …and encryption 13:22:12 …those could also qualify as critieria 13:22:19 ack dkaplan3_ 13:22:23 …At end of day, we need a complete list of functional requirements 13:22:34 Tzviya: yes, and if someone wants to help putting this together 13:22:47 Brady: depends upon…not sure who we are writing this new package for 13:22:52 …what do we need to do with packaging 13:22:56 ack Deborah 13:23:07 Deborah: I would like to speak to 3 and 4 not being fundamental 13:23:19 …if the list is 'let's see what a package is' then I'm ok; 13:23:30 …but if we are looking to create a list of requirements 13:23:49 …why can't we say a packaging format is like old school writing to a tape archive 13:24:05 …But it's 2015, so we should write a complete list of functional requirements and make them good ones 13:24:10 q? 13:24:15 -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides 13:24:25 Tzviya: We are pretty comfortable with these requirements 13:24:32 patrick_keating has joined #dpub 13:24:42 i|Tzviya: There are a lot of slides, |-> http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html Tzviya's Packaging slides| 13:24:45 …But if we write packaging spec differently, the packaging writes it in 13:25:03 …talking about books, not so much; not books, becomes more of an issue 13:25:14 …So we should put together a list of functional requirements 13:25:19 …We have zip and derivatives 13:25:25 …Multipart MIME and similar 13:25:38 …and Databasing which we are not looking at today [slide4] 13:25:43 [slide 5] 13:25:46 ...Zip 13:26:03 …Thought we might look at Zip and see whether this works; what it does and does not meet 13:26:06 …and EPUB1 on radar 13:26:20 …Going back to what Zip actually is; and thank you, Brady for pointing me in right direction 13:26:26 …Zip is pretty stable 13:26:38 [reads from slide] 13:26:51 Brady: If Zip is local, you can jump to where you want to be 13:26:59 …but if streaming you have to wait for the last chunk 13:27:05 …you cannot do anything until you get it 13:27:17 …If you have it local, you can jump and it tells you where to go 13:27:23 Tzviya: if you have file online 13:27:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph 13:27:35 Brady: If you want to display contents of Zip before it downloads 13:27:42 …and you don't want to wait, you cannot 13:27:52 …have to wait until chapter 50 is downloaded before you can read chapter one 13:27:57 …if you have downloaded, you are fine 13:28:04 s/…/.../G 13:28:15 …but there is issue of waiting if not already downloaded 13:28:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph 13:28:21 Tzviya: Spec is from the '90s 13:28:32 …talks about splitting files on floppy disks 13:28:43 …has very little attention to metadata in the spec 13:28:43 NickRuffilo has joined #dpub 13:28:48 q+ 13:28:51 …it is possible to include more but it requires changes 13:28:55 ack Nick 13:29:05 Nick: I know zip is great at compressing text 13:29:20 …but for files out of hand, is there room for compression 13:29:32 …is Zip the right package, or is that a nice benefit to reduce disk size 13:29:32 q+ 13:29:36 Tzviya: I have not yet addressed 13:29:51 …outside of Zip, packaging allows any type of compression 13:30:00 Nick: I am not fully functional in Tar 13:30:06 ack Heather 13:30:16 Heather: I was thinking about compression and wondering about compression format 13:30:32 …several things could come into this and wonder if they would be separate or part of the packaging itself 13:30:53 …Compression is one thing that would make things tidier with space 13:31:03 …expectations with DRM 13:31:57 present+ DeborahKaplan 13:32:09 Markus: As all of you know, EPUB uses Zip; has defined OCF spec on top of Zip 13:32:14 …which adds specialized features 13:32:21 ..which were deemed as necessary 13:32:25 …there is a file on the wiki 13:32:30 …which lists the things 13:32:34 https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/OCF_Functionality 13:32:36 present+ DianneKennedy 13:32:42 …that OCF does on top of Zip 13:32:42 present+ JulieMorris 13:32:54 …The thinking is that when we create this list for the future of packaging for publications 13:33:02 …we should be able to harvest some things from OCF 13:33:11 …does not mean we need to recreate all the things OCF does 13:33:18 …but owe it to ask what is relevant 13:33:28 …OCF does add a certain amount of predicatbility for entry files 13:33:41 …hooks for digital signatures and encryption information 13:33:45 …two things that are needed 13:34:04 …Then as Brady said, we don't use the built-in zip things 13:34:07 …don't know origins of that 13:34:10 …that is where we are 13:34:15 q+ 13:34:22 Tzviya: All of these things are important and there needs to be a place for them to live 13:34:29 ack clapierre 13:34:29 …need to have a home for them 13:34:55 Charles: metadata for us inside the zip container…discoverability means you have to download everything 13:35:02 Tzviya: We should outline criteria 13:35:07 pbelfanti has joined #dpub 13:35:07 …and what we can do with packaging on the web 13:35:15 …EPUB is a customization of Zip 13:35:31 …we are all fairly familiar with it 13:35:38 [slide 6] 13:35:50 …Robust metadata 13:36:14 …whether this meets criteria we have outlined, do we think robust metadata? 13:36:18 Bill: I vote yes 13:36:28 Tzviya: does robust metadata meet the criteria for a package 13:36:38 …I would say yes, but, it's not exposed; it's in the package 13:36:45 …the way EPUB is now, it is not using the language of the web 13:37:00 Bill: the latter is relevant; former is…an access issue 13:37:04 Brady: does offline great 13:37:11 …maybe two entires; online and offline 13:37:17 Bill: it's not because we are saying it's both 13:37:24 Nick: The unzipped EPUB does wonderful on the web 13:37:35 …does fine with a little code; it's that package part 13:37:43 Tzviya: The package is the problem not the stuff inside of it 13:37:45 Nick: exactly 13:38:00 Brady: you had choices on slide: zip, MIME, another option is None 13:38:05 …do we need a package file? 13:38:15 …I understand the cases; you are giving me a file 13:38:21 …and FTP-ing it 13:38:29 …but for a web app, I don't care 13:38:38 Ivan: this question comes up the same way in some of the working groups 13:38:41 q+ 13:38:44 q+ 13:38:45 ..if we say at the moment, the information I got 13:38:54 q+ 13:38:56 …that digital publishing is one of the use cases that the WebApp community looks at 13:38:59 …and they need packaging 13:39:00 q+ 13:39:02 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph 13:39:04 q+ 13:39:10 …and if we say, 'no we don't' the situation should change 13:39:12 ack Nick 13:39:16 ack NickRuffilo 13:39:19 q+ 13:39:29 Nick: one of the huge values of package lets you define a constraint and put a hash value 13:39:35 …on web you cannot forget security 13:39:37 …on the web 13:39:46 …someone will add or remove items that should not be there 13:39:55 …packaging could give us the opportunity to check things 13:39:59 …huge value for that 13:40:05 q? 13:40:06 Brady: I don't believe you gave us the criteria 13:40:11 …we already said random access 13:40:14 ack Dave 13:40:19 ack dauwhe 13:40:37 Dave: I read NYTimes web site; it's not packaged discretely 13:40:42 …don't we have web mechanisms 13:41:00 ack clapierre 13:41:02 …publishers probably like packaging; we can also wrap DRM; but is that required to do what we do 13:41:10 Charles: I was going to bring up security issue as well 13:41:14 ack Bill_Kasdorf 13:41:16 …to know that something has not been changed is huge 13:41:19 ack Bill 13:41:32 Bill: not sure if we are talking packaging on the web, EPUB or EPUB/Web 13:41:45 …intriguing to say it's what's in the package; agnostic 13:41:54 …as soon as you get stuff out of package, it's fine online 13:42:13 …why is there only one way to put it into a package? 13:42:18 q+ 13:42:20 Tzviya: Then use HTML 13:42:27 Bill: packaging offline, or web online 13:42:28 q+ 13:42:31 q+ 13:42:36 …is it really in a package online? 13:42:50 Tzviya: We are used to package being in a box; maybe it's just a special URL 13:42:57 ack dkaplan3_ 13:42:58 Bill: and you can put it in a zip 13:43:07 Deborah: balance some aspirational and pragmatic 13:43:16 …my job is to take things publishers give me and put them on the web 13:43:25 …if we say just use whatever packaging format works 13:43:28 …it's too hard 13:43:34 q+ 13:43:37 …publishing industry is not as tech savvy 13:43:43 …we run EPUB check and single packaging 13:43:49 …not DRM or signature 13:44:00 …but a few things for containers; but don't say just give me some stuff 13:44:05 …industry will collapse 13:44:16 …we are not as an industry good enough to say just give me some HTML 13:44:20 …So I would really like... 13:44:27 ack patrick_keating 13:44:28 Tzviya: We are in the abstract 13:44:33 q- 13:44:50 Patrick: the zip package is not just a container, but also tied to what you are showing 13:44:52 …good to show pages 13:44:59 …but if trying to make an offline reader with DRM 13:45:10 …the package is tightly integrated to features and how to do well 13:45:14 …cannot just leave it wide open 13:45:22 …you cannot make a reading system that will do it well 13:45:31 …Looking at manifest of XML of the open container 13:45:37 …and it's encrypted this or that way 13:45:41 …file size is in the zip container 13:46:00 …you have to make predictability around retrieving assets, that is essential information 13:46:01 ack pbelfanti 13:46:04 ack Paul 13:46:14 Paul: Just raise kinds of points people have been speaking to 13:46:18 …what is the purpose of the package 13:46:41 q+ 13:46:42 …security has been mentioned; defining what is there for consistency in reading systems 13:46:43 ack clapierre 13:46:51 …if not through a packaging system, what are the alternatives? 13:47:00 Charles: If you have all the components with security tags 13:47:13 present+ PaulBelfanti, JohannesWilm 13:47:15 ack NickRuffilo 13:47:16 …for each file, then you know the manifest, if correct, you can check those without a package having security 13:47:20 Nick: back to practical a bit 13:47:28 …Amazon decided it did not like EPUB spec 13:47:33 …they made that decision 13:47:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph 13:47:39 …there is a new spec that no one else can do 13:47:48 …some publishers run it through the moby generation 13:47:53 …it outputs the format you want 13:48:01 …that is acceptable to many publishers 13:48:10 …also question of are we making business decisions 13:48:21 …if you make this web page with root metadata and then let retailers decide 13:48:25 …not saying it's the grand ideal 13:48:35 …but it's what certain retailers will do; they will ignore your spec 13:48:39 ack Bill_Kasdorf 13:48:44 …then content producers will do what they want 13:48:59 Tzviya: we cannot talk about business requirements to that extent 13:49:03 …in a discussion like this 13:49:09 …cannot let this cloud our judgment 13:49:11 ack Bill 13:49:19 Bill: Reminder that in the EPUB we have a package file 13:49:22 …not what we are talking about 13:49:28 …in the package we are talking about 13:49:36 Tzviya: we have a lot more to talk about 13:49:43 [slide 7] 13:49:57 …Allows for the inclusion of non-ASCII content in messages 13:50:01 [reads slide] 13:50:48 [slide 8] http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#8 13:51:02 …This was 1999; world was not ready for it 13:51:10 …We have read through this and talked about it 13:51:21 …it offered offine and online support; access to components 13:51:25 …refresh new componenets 13:51:35 …use information offered on a standard web site 13:51:47 …we were pretty much there on how to access and update the information 13:51:50 …maybe try it again 13:51:58 Bill: party like it's 1999? 13:52:08 Tzviya: Good job, Brady. Ten years too early! 13:52:14 …moving to packaging on the web 13:52:19 [slide 9] 13:52:35 http://w3c.github.io/dpub/PackageDPUBF2F/index.html?full#9 13:52:44 …hope everyone read the specs and Ivan's notes 13:52:49 [reads slide] 13:53:33 …that is a really long specification in one slide 13:53:46 …Ivan had written some notes to summarize this and we have discussed this several ties 13:53:52 s/times 13:54:01 …I would like to talk about what we would like to see to meet our requiremetns 13:54:16 …I started a Google doc to talk about our functional requirements 13:54:26 https://docs.google.com/document/d/17OC8AXCwzwP1Hl754_vL5nJZBlhZ0vBDcsSStOJ5OeY/edit?usp=sharing 13:54:46 ..So, tell me some functional requirements 13:54:56 present+ LiisaMcCloy-Kelley 13:55:01 Ivan: I am not sure if everyone is aware of the situation about this and why we need to discuss this 13:55:08 …Brady and I already had a discussion on this 13:55:12 [Liisa arrives] 13:55:19 …I chatted with Dan Appelquist within W3C who works on this 13:55:27 ..This packaging document came about not for digital publishing 13:55:31 q? 13:55:34 …digital publishing came in as a use case 13:55:42 …but more about web apps being distributed easily on the web 13:55:50 …this is being done in the WebApps WG 13:55:57 …a document was produced by Jenni Tennison 13:56:03 …at the moment it is stalled 13:56:09 …because of fundamental question 13:56:17 …of whether web or browser community needs such a specification 13:56:26 …What I must admit that I did not understand a few months ago 13:56:30 …put more time into it 13:56:38 …and got a level of understanding 13:56:47 …there is a parallel effort going on 13:56:57 …with Web Workers and Web @ 13:57:03 …getting a lot of attention in the browser world 13:57:15 …some predict this will fundamentally change how browsers work 13:57:36 …Browsers will have ability to locally store content offline 13:57:40 …and higher level browser user 13:57:57 …refer to some references, the browser will have the possibility to go back to the cache 13:58:15 …this cache and mechanism around it is running in true parallel way to the browser and it does not slow things dowen 13:58:18 s/down 13:58:18 q+ 13:58:25 q+ 13:58:34 …There are voices that say...packaing 13:58:39 …everyone can be happy 13:58:51 q+ 13:58:53 …there is the question if a web packaging or not is necessary 13:58:59 ..where it hits these kinds of issues 13:59:11 …This is the moment when this community says yeah or ney 13:59:27 …what Deborah said, there is a whole industry that lives and dies with packaging 13:59:35 …some may say we don't care; you define it 13:59:38 …that can also happen 13:59:43 …this is all completely open 13:59:50 q? 13:59:51 …but why it's important for us to put a stake in the ground 13:59:55 …and what Brady asked Yves 14:00:10 …we have what we have; the EPUB package for reason of packaging, so don't mess with that 14:00:13 q+ 14:00:19 …point where we have to make a stand 14:00:21 ack Brady 14:00:22 ack br 14:00:40 Brady: I think the packaging for webapps and service workers alternative 14:00:45 …reasonable consideration 14:00:55 …no one writes a webapp for an unrelated service 14:01:05 …It's not that we don't have a client that doesn't know about the server 14:01:19 …if you have a client that does not know, you need a defined mechanism…to know what data looks like 14:01:33 …Web service workers lets you know on the fly…like give me resources for chapter 12 14:01:40 …give me the right data at the right tie 14:01:41 q- 14:01:43 s/time 14:01:55 …Give us…a blog of data so you can do something meaningful 14:02:05 q+ 14:02:05 s/blog/blob 14:02:06 …works well for publishers who know how to make a book work 14:02:22 …not a link to the first chapter only; that would be a mess; but it's a packaged file for the whole book 14:02:25 q+ to talk about non-books 14:02:26 …and zip works well for that 14:02:32 …is there a use case for a defined format 14:02:38 …that works in the web app case 14:02:50 …I have ereader clients and services 14:03:01 …Use Apple reader with someone else's services 14:03:06 …we need to define in that case 14:03:21 …but if talking about individual person creating both sides of this, then service workers works in that case 14:03:29 …service worker does that 14:03:47 …if it works for web apps, it works for books, unless client and server are provided by different people 14:03:49 q? 14:03:54 …then we can do it offline and online 14:03:57 q+ 14:04:03 …for the web case, service workers solves our problem just as well 14:04:14 ack bi 14:04:15 q+ 14:04:15 …and we should probably go the way the rest of the web is going 14:04:16 ack Bill_Kasdorf 14:04:17 ack Bill 14:04:30 Bill: that is the timing question I was going to ask 14:04:35 …Packaging question has stalled 14:04:43 …service workers …has traction 14:04:47 …there is a timing issue here 14:05:07 …it could be if the need for this is a publication issue, not a web issue, then maybe EPUB needs a packaging spec 14:05:12 present+ Dianne Kennedy 14:05:25 Dianne Kennedy: representing magazine publishing 14:05:41 …they want single content to distribute to channels of content 14:05:46 …like videos 14:05:57 …we desperately need a packaged format, but more like the EPUB case 14:05:59 ack Nick 14:05:59 ack ni 14:06:01 ack NickRuffilo 14:06:11 NicK: thinking about it, no matter how you have it, there is always a package 14:06:18 …directory has a table 14:06:31 …no matter what, question becomes what is the best package 14:06:38 …hearing a package is more useful offline 14:06:52 …but HTML you still need to define files that are offline or live and define what to be replaced 14:07:03 …Twitter chat; just offline and don't show this 14:07:09 …Question is what is the best package for this 14:07:15 ack tzviya 14:07:15 tzviya, you wanted to talk about non-books 14:07:15 ack tzv 14:07:18 ..rescinding my earlier comment, no need for no package 14:07:29 Tzviya: we have a few minutes left 14:07:34 …We have to keep non-books in mind 14:07:45 …non-books, journals also annotations are very much in this model 14:07:56 …is that annotation part of this package or not? 14:08:01 …We just need to be aware of that 14:08:24 …we don't have time to list the functional requirements today, but next Monday, please come prepared to list your requirements 14:08:31 Markus: This session runs 14:09:02 ack iv 14:09:03 George: Learning management systems and universities creating content fit into more of authoring environment that the package needs to fulfill as well 14:09:04 ack Ivan 14:09:09 Ivan: To answer what Bill asked 14:09:22 …yes, there is traction around web workers and service workers 14:09:37 ..Around Chrome and Firefox, it's either alive by default or you set some flag 14:09:42 …and it's already there 14:09:53 …Nobody knows what Safari does; don't know what MS does 14:10:01 …core spec comes from Google 14:10:06 …Firefox has figured it out 14:10:22 …not a question of whether but when web workers and service workers will be part of browsers 14:10:35 …On the packaging part there has been reason here why we need packaging 14:10:40 …as a half-way metadata person 14:10:53 …the need for clear identification for that stuff is important 14:11:00 …I need a URI for something 14:11:06 …we don't have that pointer 14:11:15 …that is an abstract reason why we need packaging 14:11:25 …It may come back this evening for the chartering discussion 14:11:41 …The general browser world may say they don't need a packaging standard 14:11:47 …But we may have to do it ourselves 14:11:55 …and decide whether IDPF or W3C 14:12:01 Markus: Will not be browser native 14:12:04 Ivan: Correct 14:12:08 …understanding service workers 14:12:16 …if web packaging standard is defined 14:12:23 …and if service worker is properly defined 14:12:29 status of Service Worker in browsers: https://jakearchibald.github.io/isserviceworkerready/ 14:12:34 …then implementing package by a service worker is a doable job 14:12:50 …not sure we would lose so much by it being done by a third party 14:12:59 …Brady, you may have another opinion 14:13:00 ack pa 14:13:02 ack Patrick 14:13:06 ack patrick_keating 14:13:22 Patrick: Following lead of caching, portability becomes important 14:13:47 …I cannot send cached web page to a friend…or to a credit card with a book 14:13:53 …EPUB, a book is a thing, not a place 14:14:09 …part where we get books with URLs and URIs, it's nice that people think about books as a thing 14:14:14 q+ 14:14:15 q? 14:14:17 @: You mean in JS 14:14:29 …you need a standard…based on JS, all wanting to read the same packaging file 14:14:34 s/@/Johannes/ 14:14:39 q+ to ask if we will talk about streaming 14:14:41 …You are saying you can do the whole thing in JS 14:14:47 …JS could read spec 14:14:54 …and use service workers to access these things 14:15:02 s/streaming/streamability 14:15:03 …For that you would not need a standard for just one JS 14:15:11 …but if you have several and want them to read the same type of tile 14:15:15 s/file 14:15:22 …so does there need to be several? 14:15:42 ack Brady: Only important if multiple clients talking to multiple servers 14:15:59 Ivan: Distributing to many readers 14:16:10 Tzviya: but not just about distribution 14:16:20 ack br 14:16:21 Liisa: We are not always online all the time 14:16:25 ack Brady 14:16:33 Brady: interesting point about portability 14:16:35 present+ Johannes 14:16:36 q+ 14:16:42 …caching is performancing saving step 14:16:46 present+ Liisa Mccloy-Kelley 14:16:54 …as a user I may want to download book or collection of journals 14:16:59 present+ Julie Morris 14:17:07 …and know I have downloaded it to my hard drive and know I can read it on another device 14:17:18 Markus: that fundamental principal needs to call that out 14:17:19 q+ 14:17:22 two naive ideas: Could a local zip package be something a service worker could access and fill the cache with? And/or could there be a simple local server with a single purpose of serving local package contents? 14:17:31 Markus: We need to explain the network independent artifact 14:17:37 …not bound to a browser cache 14:17:43 …an entity that stands on its own 14:17:49 …something I need to explain to people 14:18:02 ack dkaplan3_ 14:18:02 dkaplan3_, you wanted to ask if we will talk about streaming 14:18:02 …we need a good little essay somewhere on the wiki that we can point people to 14:18:16 ack NickRuffilo 14:18:16 Deborah: I wonder if we are going to have the streamability conversation? 14:18:19 ack Nick 14:18:30 Nick: The concept of a URI as an identifier scares me 14:18:39 …I just had some domains expire 14:18:48 …I still have the data 14:19:00 Ivan: URIs and URLs are not the same 14:19:11 Nick: But having a package and an identifier pointing to it 14:19:17 ack Karen 14:19:22 …having a package makes the contents inside it easier 14:19:41 Karen: we're also seeing many other devices 14:19:49 ... e.g. devices in vehicles 14:19:52 ... televisions 14:20:01 ack Ralph 14:20:01 Ralph, you wanted to expand on Markus' comment on artifacts 14:20:25 Ralph: other files 14:20:30 …and what this entity is 14:20:45 …important that we describe the collection of things we are licensing 14:20:53 …this set of things has this license, this signature 14:21:05 …know it's different from that; and whether transportable in one communication or not 14:21:08 …those are separate 14:21:15 …Markus made a good point 14:21:26 …and we can come back to question of how we transport this 14:21:30 Liisa; one other note 14:21:37 …one of short-comings of packaging format is the size 14:21:41 …you cannot zip more than 2 gig 14:21:53 …as we talk about learning objects, long text and collections of things 14:21:58 …it is becoming a problem 14:22:04 …2 gigs is a zip restriction 14:22:15 …certain retailers won't let you get beyond 700 megs 14:22:16 s/... televisions/... televisions and other devices that provide a reading experience 14:22:23 Tzviya: A valid point 14:22:29 Markus: It's a requirement 14:22:34 …a 32 bit problem? 14:22:42 Brady: I thought it was 64 14:22:51 Tzviya: We don't need to assess it today 14:22:55 ….Streamabilty 14:23:08 …I also had streamability as one of my top criteria 14:23:13 …but conclusion I reached 14:23:37 q+ 14:23:43 …is that it's not nec streamability is the requirement but the ability to refresh a component, like chapt. 12 14:23:46 Bill: question 14:23:55 ack Bill_Kasdorf 14:23:55 …an important variant is adding a component 14:24:01 q+ 14:24:03 Tzviya; yes, additions, deletions or updates 14:24:08 …that is the conclusion I came to 14:24:18 …streaming does not seem as important if you have random access 14:24:36 Brady: I don't want to have to stream chapter 20 and not redo all the streaming 14:24:44 Deborah: do you want random access? 14:24:49 Brady: streaming all the way to the end 14:24:55 Deborah: we containerize 14:25:21 Nick: not look at it as a large file; 1 gig vido 14:25:24 video 14:25:31 Brady: Depends upon who you are 14:25:35 …I can easily stream video 14:25:47 …but I can imagine a company that does not want to do streaming video 14:25:50 q+ 14:25:54 q+ 14:25:57 Tzviya: I don't think streaming video should be part of packaging 14:25:58 ack Ralph 14:26:00 ack Ralph 14:26:04 Ralph: there are two different things 14:26:14 …a question of whether I can randomly access; a communications question 14:26:15 Rick_Johnson has joined #dpub 14:26:27 …even a big video file lets me start at frame number five 14:26:49 …but that is different from another streamability question; do I need to wait for the last octet before I can stream the first oen 14:26:59 q+ 14:27:00 …that is important to movies, and also important to eBooks 14:27:09 …streamability connotes those two things and some others 14:27:17 Brady: that is a good point about a large chapter 14:27:24 …you cannot start it until you download it 14:27:27 ack ivan 14:27:32 …today you cannot do it with a large chapter 14:27:43 Ivan: We are also talking about a format for scientific articles 14:27:48 …now and in future in a packaged format 14:27:53 Julie has joined #dpub 14:27:54 …will include experimental data 14:27:58 …huge pieces of data 14:28:03 Bill: and will include videos 14:28:08 Ivan: that, too 14:28:16 …and loads of people will make it more optimal 14:28:26 …huge CSV files, which are part of the scientific output for the article 14:28:33 …then streaming becomes important 14:28:49 …Those big pieces of data are what the researcher will play with once he or she understands the paper 14:28:53 q? 14:28:54 ack Deborah 14:28:55 q+ 14:28:58 ack dkaplan3_ 14:29:06 Deborah: Let's say we are talking abut widgets 14:29:20 …you can get random access to sections of package; sections pointed out in metadata 14:29:22 s/before I can stream the first oen/before I can start rendering the first chapter in my request 14:29:25 …line 49 or minute 73 14:29:29 …then you are in a section 14:29:40 …can you see beginning of section if the widgets are huge 14:29:44 …i think we are saying yes 14:29:47 q? 14:29:49 …but it's going to take a while 14:29:55 Ralph: as a reader I want that 14:29:56 ack clapierre 14:29:59 Rick: the market expects it 14:30:13 Charles: with steamability, video is one thing, but audio books 14:30:18 ack NickRuffilo 14:30:22 …and closed captioning and sign language we need to consider 14:30:24 ack Nick 14:30:31 Nick: does it have to be either or 14:30:36 …can it be spec in the manifest 14:30:48 …do I allow reading system to open before download is complete 14:30:57 …some say it has to be downloaded from start to finish 14:31:04 …some reading systems may want to cater 14:31:10 Ivan; but we said that zip cannot do that 14:31:14 …you have to take the whole thing 14:31:19 …that is the problem 14:31:19 q+ 14:31:24 Nick: If we have random access 14:31:29 …then from that point it's not an issue 14:31:37 Brady: zip can random access if you have the file local 14:31:42 …from streaming perspective 14:31:47 ack Rick 14:31:49 ack Rick_Johnson 14:31:54 Rick: it's not the reading system, it's the content author 14:31:59 …do I let you read it or go online 14:32:01 ack Ralph 14:32:01 Ralph, you wanted to respond to Nick 14:32:05 ack Ralph 14:32:10 Ralph: in following on from Rick 14:32:27 …while the author may have choices, we should provide advice to authors 14:32:34 …a way to put those resources in the right order 14:32:45 …so you get the critical things you need to put in the right order 14:32:51 …This was a good discussion 14:33:02 …Next week we need to communicate a functional requirements document 14:33:07 …and communicate this back to the TAG 14:33:12 HeatherF has joined #dpub 14:33:17 …our next step is to put together the functional requiremetns 14:33:21 …so this is homework 14:33:28 …Some of us will need to put together a formal note 14:33:45 …with our thoughts from where packaging goes from a digital publishing perspective 14:33:52 Markus: Please introduce yourself 14:33:56 Nick Ruffilio 14:34:00 …I work for AerBook 14:34:08 …a start-up that allows anyone to create a store 14:34:30 Johannes Wilhelm; for Vivliostyle 14:34:34 …we are working in JS space 14:34:39 Julie Morris, BISG 14:34:54 …non-profit trade association doing standards and research operating on behalf of publishing 14:35:03 Liisa McCloy Kelley, Penguin Random House 14:35:09 Dianne Kennedy, IDEAlliance 14:35:19 …we focus on everything from print and postal distribution 14:35:26 …to the distribution of periodical content 14:35:41 …not only in print but across wide platforms, magazines and associated advertising 14:35:55 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:35:55 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen 14:39:03 patrick_johnston has joined #dpub 14:42:16 magyarblip has joined #dpub 14:46:36 magyarblip has joined #dpub 14:47:30 magyarblip has joined #dpub 14:48:15 https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers 14:49:14 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 14:49:23 s/Johannes Wilhelm/Johannes WIlm 14:50:31 Topic: Identifiers 14:50:37 scribenick: NickRuffilo 14:50:58 Markus: "The next section is identifiers - we have until 12" 14:51:05 HeatherF has joined #dpub 14:51:44 ...: "This is another of the core problem areas that we see moving into the future. Identification and linking today in the digital publishig landscape is "totaly broken" to "almost working" 14:51:58 patrick_keating has joined #dpub 14:51:59 Julie has joined #dpub 14:52:12 ..."In terms of simulating digital publishing in how the web works, in this area we have lots of work to do in here. Bill will be telling us which items we are tackling first." 14:52:44 Bill: "My assigned agenda is to talk about fragment identifier requirements. To put it in context, a couple months ago, we realized we had IDs for publication, and IDs for fragments" 14:53:01 ...: "IDs for the publication are a 'losing battle' so lets start with IDs of fragments." 14:53:31 ...: "In the context of this group, the "thing" is a publication. Obviously we have to have a way of identifying that we have a thing. IDs are a proxy for metadata. " 14:54:08 ...: "What we are talking about today is how we identify the things that are in that thing. Not just the descrete components but the things within those components. Not just the DOM but also a video and time-based locations. In an SVG a shape-based location." 14:54:30 rrsagent, draft minutes 14:54:30 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan 14:54:41 ...: "A discussion on the list recently is people have to break out of their paradigms. People have been defining co-ordinates for referencing images, but not all images are rectangular and scaling can be an issue." 14:54:56 ...: "A location that has markup in a textual document isn't the only thing we need to identify." 14:55:33 ...: "There is also a confusion on the assumption that there is that markup that an identifier points to a LOCATION - but it's possible to point to a fragment, which has a beginning and end point, so it's not a location as it is two locations." 14:55:57 ...: "A fragment isn't always a point identifier..." 14:56:21 magyarblip has joined #dpub 14:56:47 q+ 14:56:56 ...: "The task we started on was fragment identifiers. THere were many contributions on the wiki. ideally our task at hand is to dicuss the requirements for the fragment identifiers. Another item on our agenda is to look at two of the candidate identifiers." 14:56:57 https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Requirements 14:57:11 ...: "On the wiki we identified a bunch of candidate fragment identifiers that are out there." 14:57:55 ...: "So in terms of the requirements themselves, the starting point really is this set of 5 that IVAN contributed a month ago when we were actively reviewing these candidate specs, CFi that is part of the epub spec, the media fragments that are part of the web." 14:59:21 ...: "1) Must be able to point to a thing 2) be able to follow a path 3) a way to reuse externally defined specifications - not just 1 way to point to a fragment. How you point to an HTML document isn't always how you point to an SVG or video. 4) Fragments should have conceptual equivalents to URIs so that they are addressable on the web. 5) Base 14:59:22 d on technologies that are widely deployed on the web. 15:00:38 ...: "Probably a month before that Tzviya had contributed a list of 'requirements' that she 'didn't make up' from the hypothesis wiki. A list of conceptual requirements. Simple, built with eye towards future, implementable now, web-content is 'unstable' anchors can never be known for certain so fall-backs, how to fail gracefully, " 15:00:50 ...: "Hypothes.is is an annotations service." 15:01:23 ...: "Not expensive to compute. Function well for diversity of content and formats. Allow you to see if a given anchor will give excessive bandwidth." 15:03:11 ...: "Persistent citability. Point-in-time citability - at what point in time were you referring to this thing. (versioning). Reproducability - whether it can be shared. Analog for dpub is that it doesn't modify the resource."" 15:04:44 ...: "Simple plain english: should it enable addressing arbitrary locations within a textual document, not just nodes in a document. Enable discontinuous fragments to be associated in a document." 15:05:08 ...: "Potentially a fragment ID that identifies a collection of fragments" 15:05:32 ...: "ability to mark from 2 locations - start and end." 15:06:15 ack iv 15:06:43 ivan: "Several things. I'll repeat some of what you said, just with more emphasis. Whatever we do, we should have somewhere a big poster "DO NOT REINVENT THE WHEEL"" 15:07:23 ...: "For various media types, the community has/is defining all types of identifier types. We want to use all of them and avoid redefining these where there is already a fragment ID. The number of IDs is probably stageringly high." 15:07:52 q+ 15:08:16 ...: "The reason I was clearly influenced in those 5 points by the packaging document is that very clearly they make a consicous attempt to do just that - reinventing the wheel. it is something we need to keep in mind. What they do is, a fragment within a package has two sides. You ahve to indentify things that are package specific." 15:09:12 ...: "One you have that you have to say - this is the fragment I used and this is the media type. For the rest, it says "go check out the identifier for more info" There may be more items - such as the discontinued things - where there are not already fragment identifiers - but the fundamental principals is that - in things such as SVG, is that t 15:09:12 here are already identifiers for them." 15:09:23 Bill: "People will also USE the existing IDs." 15:10:07 q+ 15:10:24 Ivan: "If I look at it through the packaging lens, or the fragment pointing directly to a URI." 15:11:14 ...: "The user should not see a difference that things will not look differently to the reader if on the web or not. If I make cross-reference within the package, and it's within the package, then it all works out. If I do annotation to chapter 1 as an outsider, then I'm not exactly sure how we would take that, Somehow we should address - and I 15:11:14 don't know how." 15:12:01 Bill: "I have a correlary to add to that. An item in that chapter may point to the SVG. IN an epub, you can get to the SVG from the manifest, but in HTML you need to get to the image directly. And you'll use a different syntax for identifying the SVG than a text-component of an HTML file." 15:12:58 Ivan: "The 3rd thing is the timing issue. I don't know how widespread it is, but there is a specification out there 'momento' that is done by some guys which tries to give a general way of how you refer to a document on the web with timestamps on it. For that to work, servers have to be able to respond to that." 15:13:22 q? 15:13:34 ...: "Servers are usually not prepared to handle versioning. There is work out there, so let's not try to put on our plate more that we can chew. The whole timing issue - because I'm scared of it - i'd rather put it out of scope for now." 15:13:57 Bill: "What do we mean by requirements? Defining the issues or just the issues we wish to address." 15:14:06 ack Ralph 15:14:18 ...: "So we're not attempting to address ALL possible issues, but just ones we can actually solve." 15:15:05 Ralph: "It would be helpful for this group to determine what has already been created out there. What have our systems implemented?" 15:15:36 ...: "What I liked about the hypothesis set is that it's looking for stuff people have tried to implement. I would encourage us to bring into the discussion, what has actually been built." 15:15:39 q? 15:16:25 Bill: "There are sectors of the publishing community where there are mechanisms for time-based identifiers. There is now a standardized way of determining version of record. In that world, those people would like to be able to use that." 15:16:31 q+ 15:17:16 ...: "There are sectors where time-based aren't just a nice-to-have but a need-to-have. We are agnostic as to the existing specifications but the requirement is that we enable them to be used if they exist." 15:17:16 ack tzviya 15:17:19 ack tzviya 15:17:57 Tzviya: "Timestamp isn't about versions. Version requirements aren't tied to a timestamp, it's tied to a versioning. " 15:18:17 Bill: "We can't make magazines do it the way scholarly publishing does it." 15:19:00 ack mgylling 15:19:06 Tzviya: "Right now, if you start searching for fragment identifiers, you'll get TOO many options. There are lot of dated versions that are on their way out that we want to make sure we ignore. We want to look forward and look at the emerging IDs and flag the opportunistic ones." 15:19:26 "In the magazine world, there's the concept of an expiration date." 15:19:33 ack mgylling 15:20:33 Markus: "Tzviya said what I wanted to say - we need to understand how to go forward without it being a completely academic exercise. There's an enormous amount of ID baggage out there. There's no point of listing those. From a pragmatic perspective we need to understand which are the core requirements that we need to fulfill." 15:21:29 ...: "for example, the ID of a range of text - the fact that you can't do that with a standard URL is really wierd. It's probably because when you're reading a site about kitten,s, you don't need to, but it's a problem that we may have to invent. There's probably a dozen specifications out there suggesting a way to do this, but they may all be ol 15:21:29 d/deprecated. " 15:21:57 ...: "Somehow we need to have a 'must have' 'should have' and 'nice to have' categorization, so we don't over-populate the must-haves. Start with the fundamentals." 15:22:27 ...: "Just like with packaging - we need a very clear, well-organized document that lets us know what we really need to do."" 15:23:20 Bill: "Devil in the details. One thing we were going to look at is CFI. CFI lets you traverse to points in the text, but we're bumping into an issue of "how do you count characters?" At the last molecule, it becomes extremely difficult." 15:23:59 Ivan: "We want to pare the list down into what are the true requirements." 15:24:01 q? 15:24:04 ack NickRuffilo 15:24:09 Nick: I wanted to point out 15:24:12 …not sure if EPUB thing 15:24:21 …but Amazon and iBooks support a versioning system 15:24:24 ..already built int 15:24:35 Bill: "That's what I wanted to do. Go through the document and fix things." 15:25:03 Bill: "When it comes to the epub spec, to be agnostic, you need to be able to identify into all different specs and then go within the package." 15:25:34 ...: "With epub - if you want to specify a term, and it's an ONIX term, you should be able to identify the identifier as well as the identity itself 15:25:59 ...: "If you're in the SVG, is it obvious that the identifier is specific for SVG." 15:26:22 Markus: "In an ideal world, the MIME type would be used to explain how to utilize the identifier." 15:26:49 bill: "If there was some link to the cross-mark or cross-ref ..." 15:26:51 q+ 15:27:40 bill: "rather than saying any possible scheme can be put into the identifiers issues, the ones that are implied by the mimetype are the ones that we need to focus on?" 15:27:59 q? 15:28:05 patrick_keating has joined #dpub 15:28:17 Markus: "we should have a view of what identifiers are in use that we can leverage." 15:28:36 ack Ralph 15:28:37 ack Ralph 15:28:49 q+ Liisa 15:30:15 Ralph: "Again, lets distinguish between the identifiers and the mechanisms for using it. It came up previous, an open-ended problem is an issue because it makes it hard for a reading system to figure it out. Does the container give me enough information that I need to write a renderer for that particular container?" 15:31:05 ...: "At least the container provides me enough information to figure out what to do with it." 15:31:13 ack Nick 15:31:13 ack NickRuffilo 15:31:13 ack NickR 15:31:20 ack Liisa 15:31:26 ack liisa 15:32:54 Lisa: "One of the things i think is fundamental - the authors VS externally - any random user calling something a fragment. There is a bit of worry in that any random user does not know anything of what is inside the document itself. They maybe can place markers, highlight something, but what they are not necessarily going to get is the relations 15:32:54 hips of something within. The image has copyright and credit that need to be attributed to that image. We don't have good ways to move that with a potential fragment." 15:33:08 q? 15:33:39 Bill: "All of that is very important, but for this initiative - the goal is "how to identify the fragment" Once you ID it, then you can build systems to identify the fragment." 15:34:08 bill: "we're focus on how to identify. It is both internal and external identifier." 15:34:59 q+ 15:35:01 Ivan: "The point you noted has an issue with an identifier and the metadata linked to all of it. A fragment composed of discontiguous things." 15:35:09 ack clapierre 15:35:33 Charles: "How big can a fragment be?" 15:36:02 bill: "fundamentally we're saying that there is a publication that some of which can be." 15:36:40 "How big can the identifier can be? How big can the identified content be?" 15:36:54 present+ MiaLipner 15:36:55 bill: "our task isn't what you can do with a fragment, but what you can do with it." 15:36:57 q+ 15:37:00 [Mia arrives on the phone] 15:37:03 ack NickRuffilo 15:37:29 Nick: without a package it's difficult to have a multi-page fragment 15:37:47 q? 15:37:48 ... e.g. you can't specify simply start and end page since there are pages in the middle 15:38:14 Bill: perhaps there is a fundamental requirement that a fragment identifies contiguous data\ 15:38:34 Liisa: [some requirements would] assume a liner reading order 15:38:42 Nick: "Does a fragment need to be contiguous" 15:38:45 s/liner/linear 15:39:18 Bill: "I assume people are familiar with CFI. When he developed that list of 5 requirements, he said: 'lets take a look at these 2 potential specs, and lets see how well they fit these requirements." 15:40:10 -> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Task_Forces/identifiers#Proposed_Strategy Proposed Strategy 15:40:15 Bill: "CFI has a way to identify the things within the package." 15:40:28 ...: "Has the ability to step-through to find it's item." 15:41:30 ...: "As far is Ivan knows, it cannot identify down to the character." 15:41:54 q? 15:42:06 Ivan: "My point for that is that it's intimately defined on EPUB and xml and the current format of the manifest." 15:42:44 Bill: "Getting to Markus's earlier point. If you have an epub, and you want to find a location within a textual item, CFI is a good solution. Could it suffice - no - it doesn't meet enough of our requirements." 15:43:41 ...: "PFRag - cannot traverse the document? Maybe - if you use the fragment identifier appropriate to the mimetype, it lets you get inside the document." 15:44:24 ...: "Should have a way to externally define fragment id sections. Hands off the task of further fragment to another ID scheme that is appropriate to the MIMEtype" 15:44:40 Markus: "What's the end-point we want to get to?" 15:44:58 Bill: "I wanted to see if these 2 candidate specs let us get to where we want to?" 15:45:37 q+ 15:46:05 Markus: "I keep ending up saying "it really doesn't matter" What we really need is the fundamental pointing mechanisms. If we select PFRag, it won't really matter as they won't be able to use the fragments." 15:46:57 ...: "Define requirements, look for gaps, and find the identifiers that fit already based on mimetypes... We have to begin with the actual functional means. All else is an exercise for later." 15:47:18 q? 15:47:27 ack Rick_Johnson 15:47:28 Bill: "This gets to the 2 most important with hypothesis today. We can't build it based off the future spec, but we better not be building something that we expect to be built today that doesn't work. 15:48:01 Rick: "One of the things we love about CFI is that if you assert an ID on an XML, if the CFI isn't valid - is that covered in this?" 15:48:17 Tzviya: "It's part of the fail gracefully" 15:48:24 Markus: "Please explain" 15:49:12 Rick: "If you have an ID attached to an XML. Editor comes in, creates a new version is created, but the CFI can still re-resolve the ID, despite it's new location." 15:49:41 q+ 15:49:53 Markus: "Does that sound like marching orders - to list the fundamental requirements. We have to attack the fundamental requirements. The syntax is secondary." 15:50:00 q? 15:50:03 ack iv 15:50:39 Ivan: "For me personally, the issue isn't the identifier, it's the duality of identification - whether part of the package is "part of the package" or it's on the web as an HTML file. It's what worries me the most. If I'm in chapter 1 in a book, which is package. The book has an identifier..." 15:51:38 ...: "Both CFI or the package identifier would identify chapter 1 is a very specific mechanism - starts with the package, goes to chap 1. If the same book, part of the web - then the natural way of identifying the part is HTML. So now there are two different ways to get to the same package. That worries me the most. How do we manage the duality 15:51:38 of offline VS offline?" 15:52:29 ...: "compared to that, the rest of the items is important, but minor. And I'm not sure what's the best way of doing that. How the various cross-references within the book... What happens if I make an annotation of a book/chapter while on the web, then go into offline mode?" 15:52:31 q? 15:52:36 q+ 15:53:09 Bill: "Starting with the fragment identifier sounded like a good idea, but it's so dependent on the package and it's ID, that we can't focus on it." 15:53:23 Ivan: "In one of the states, the way it's done is relied on a fragment ID. " 15:53:31 Bill: "wouldn't you want it to use the same mechanism?" 15:53:50 Ivan: "We have to be careful of terminology, it's on the web, it's a "url" and not a fragment ID." 15:54:21 ...: "If it's on the web, and it gets to chapter 2 - it has a fragment id. What i'm looking for now is a fragment ID." 15:55:34 Ivan: "we're disagreeing on terminology. When I say "fragment" i'm using the specification term - which is in the URL spec. To the outside world - to the web world - if the chapter is on the web, I do no use a 'fragment'" 15:55:46 Ivan: "It's identification is not after the hash-mark." 15:55:47 URL spec: http://www.w3.org/Addressing/URL/url-spec.txt 15:56:14 URL WHAT WG: https://url.spec.whatwg.org/ 15:56:15 Ivan: "I don't know how to use this whole thing and rectify." 15:56:18 ack Nick 15:56:27 ack Nick 15:56:39 Nick: what is wrong with having the identifier live in the fragment 15:56:59 …like my URL…and the fragment identifier goes into the package and does the appropriate things 15:57:08 …is there a reason why we cannot use it? 15:58:22 Ivan: fragments never hit the server on HTTP - so that's what prevent us. " 15:58:24 ack Ralph 15:58:24 Ralph, you wanted to mention absolute and relative identifiers 15:58:30 q+ Liisa 16:00:16 Ivan: "Think of a scientific publication that has several parts - which has 1 fixed identifier (package). How would you address the 2nd part of this research object. " 16:00:25 Ralph: "Relative is pertinent" 16:00:46 Alternate words for "fragment" http://www.thesaurus.com/browse/fragment?s=t 16:00:50 ack Liisa 16:01:50 Lisa: "POinting to an annotation is very difficult, especially since what is on the web is different than the local" 16:02:15 Bill: "Would it be useful to - probably Ivan and Rob..." 16:02:41 Ivan: "The annotation working group works only with things that are strictly on the web. The problem I'm discussing is beyond their concern." 16:02:52 action Bill_kasdorf Create Fragment ID Functional Requirements with must have/should have/may have 16:02:52 Created ACTION-50 - Create fragment id functional requirements with must have/should have/may have [on Bill Kasdorf - due 2015-06-02]. 16:03:27 q? 16:04:55 s/Relative is pertinent/I'm thinking that the concept of relative identifiers and absolute identifiers is relevant here and it would help to have some use cases to know the problem Ivan is describing/ 16:09:56
16:18:44 Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub 16:26:58 HeatherF has joined #dpub 16:36:37 NickRuffilo has joined #dpub 16:42:29 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 16:55:14 tzviya has joined #dpub 16:59:38 dauwhe has joined #dpub 17:00:03 philm has joined #dpub 17:00:04 phil_m has joined #dpub 17:00:57 Topic: Pagination, Styling 17:01:07 rrsagent, draft minutes 17:01:07 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan 17:01:18 chair: mgylling 17:02:06 markus: the amount of pain and money that publishers put into styling and pagination is astronomical 17:02:15 http://www.w3.org/TR/dpub-latinreq/ 17:02:22 ...dave has been working on pagination and latinreq 17:02:30 Ivan: "We've had a brave night sent in - dave kramer - working exclusively on pagination. Describing various aspects of things you can't do with CSS today. Dave's work has been multi-faceted." 17:02:41 sorry - Markus not ivan 17:02:42 -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/ Editors' draft 17:02:55 s/Ivan/Markus 17:03:20 scribenick: tzviya 17:03:49 s/night/knight 17:03:51 patrick_keating has joined #dpub 17:03:58 markus: what are candidates for pagination, what are next steps? 17:03:59 [Alan Stearns arrives] 17:04:04 present+ AlanStearns 17:04:47 ivan: let's clarify what the requirements of the IG are 17:05:11 dauwhe: my hope is to better understand current confusion 17:05:23 ...there are technical and political issues 17:06:16 ...on specification level, if paginating a document, you are slicing it into pieces that CSS WG calls fragments 17:06:34 ...the CSS WG is interested in approaching things at fundamental level 17:06:50 ...there is little understanding of how CSS works behind the scenes 17:07:34 ...Many CSSers are signatories of extensible web manifesto and enabling developers to use the building blocks of web themselves 17:08:13 ...provide primitives and allow developers to create the polyfills 17:08:22 ...thus evolved project Houdini 17:08:49 https://wiki.css-houdini.org/ 17:08:53 ...Houdini TF is joined task force of TAG and CSS WG to explain the magic of CSS 17:09:54 ...goal is to expose the technical functionlality of rendering engines 17:10:08 ...one of goals is exploring the CSS Box model 17:10:59 ...As authors we do not have access to the calculations that go into the "magic" of calculating what a "page" is 17:11:22 ...How do we create measurements to get to a location on a page? Create APIs to access pages? etc 17:11:36 ...This is necessary for pages, regions, multi-call 17:11:51 ...Anything we come up with needs to work with all of these. 17:11:52 s/multi-call/multicol/ 17:12:34 Dauwhe: there is a section about overflow as well 17:13:02 brady: essentially 2 specs - what is a page and how to hande the content 17:13:50 Dauwhe: less clear what will happen on Houdini side 17:14:05 ...Houdini will have a F2F in Paris in August 17:14:06 q+ 17:14:45 ...If we need to polyfill pagination, what primitives would make that easier? 17:15:04 ack iv 17:16:27 column balancing is a multicol-only feature as well 17:16:35 Johannes: everything has to world in all fragmentation aspects - one correction is that multi-column spans applies ONLY to columns 17:16:42 q? 17:17:33 ivan: my understanding is that Houdini is the solution to solve pagination, but fragmentation and overflow seems to be happening in parallel? 17:18:15 dauwhe: yes. we are approaching from 2 angles. We must build the primitives and we also need define regions, etc 17:19:19 Johannes: my understanding is that interest in print from browsers, etc is lacking, but implementations based on regions etc may be used for columns 17:19:35 printing in Safari used to be based on multicol as well 17:19:35 q+ 17:19:52 q+ 17:19:54 ...which is of interest for browsers (meaning that page is not of interest to borwser, but columns, regions are) 17:19:56 ack br 17:20:24 brady: these feel like 2 completely separate things, not 2 approaches to the same things 17:20:49 q+ 17:20:49 Julie has joined #dpub 17:20:59 ...one is old method of write a spec and see if it works, Houdini is a radical change to way CSS is developed 17:21:17 ...and it might get more traction 17:21:40 ...not convinced that we will get page breaks if we just write a spec 17:21:42 ack astearns 17:21:45 ack al 17:22:31 alan: agree with Brady. Houdini is more likely to come up with useful ways of pagination, but it is only half of bridge. 17:22:58 ...the low level APIs will be informed by the low-level realities that Houdini will expose 17:24:12 q? 17:24:16 ack ivan 17:24:27 Brady: intent will be to expose pagination spec that exists (not write on their own), hope to have declaritive specs that don't get in the way 17:24:46 http://dev.w3.org/houdini/box-tree-api/ 17:25:19 ivan: I agree with Brady. I am quite concerned with time involved. Pagination is one aspect of Houdini, which could take years. 17:25:25 s/low level APIS will be/high level APIs will be/ 17:25:53 ivan: is Houdini going fast enough for this industry? 17:26:41 Dauwhe: I am more optimistic about Houdini because the people working on it are the people building the browsers. If they are working on it, it seems likely to ship 17:27:07 ...there is not a lot of activity on list, but it seems like a lot of research is happening 17:27:17 q+ 17:28:10 ...we have questions, and they might have answers. Perhaps we need better communication 17:28:39 Ivan: is there a way to influence the path of Houdini? 17:29:10 Deborah: What are we trying to communicate to them? 17:30:23 Ralph: would it be useful for this TF to ask Houdini to demo how primitives paginate 17:30:26 ...? 17:31:04 q+ 17:31:09 Dauwhe: It would be helpful to ask Peter Linss to show us what he means 17:31:28 q+ to invite PL to a meeting 17:32:38 Johannes: It would be useful to know if we needed to create a pagination polyfill atop a Houdini polyfill 17:33:06 dauwhe: would also need to know which of DPUB use cases are met by Houdini polyfills 17:33:26 ...and compare Johannes and Readium experiences 17:33:30 ack Ni 17:33:49 https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements 17:33:59 Nick: do we have a requirements doc for Pagination? 17:34:26 Dauwhe: see Brady's list of pagination requirements 17:34:58 Nick: It would be great to get line by line annotation from Houdini to see what is supported 17:35:45 ...EPUB has mention of page requirements 17:35:58 brady: this stuff is covered in latinreq 17:36:06 q+ 17:36:51 ack astearns 17:36:55 ack ast 17:37:32 alan: the part of Houdini that will address is the custom layout. We talk about box-tree, but that is a stepping stone to get to custom layout 17:37:42 ...there are other stepping stones as well 17:37:56 ...I echo Ivan's concern about how long this will take 17:38:16 ...I believe we need to continue working on existing and future polyfills for pagination 17:38:33 q- 17:39:00 ...because I would like to evaluate polyfills vs Houdini because I want to be able to say about Houdini, here is how we can make it easier 17:39:12 ack tzviya 17:39:12 tzviya, you wanted to invite PL to a meeting 17:39:33 q+ 17:39:49 Tzviya: seems it might be good to invite someone from Houdini to talk with us 17:39:52 ...If Houdini does not make it easier, then we've done it wrong 17:40:03 scribe: mgylling 17:40:35 Tzviya: as Nick was saying we have LatinReq and Brady’s doc, but we need an itemized list of requirements, if anything missing we fill that in 17:41:32 … then Dave, Alan and Johannes sitting down with members of Houdini to determine what they are working on now; that could be a taskforce meeting or whatever. To find out where we are and where we need to go, ask how we can help 17:42:04 ack ivan 17:42:24 Ivan: to reinforce what you said Tzviya, feedback I got made me worried, the message was that there are no dpub related issues in CSS WG, makes me sense that that group is not conscious that pagination is a central problem 17:42:33 … we will clone dave 17:42:51 … I am sure the CSS WG answer will be that we need to provide the resources 17:43:05 q+ 17:43:30 Brady: does it make sense to attend Houdini meetings without being in CSS WG 17:44:34 Johannes: its not only a matter that print hasnt been worked on, they are prioritizing what goes into browser. When you tell them I want something equivalent to a Latex rendering engine in the browser, they say no. 17:44:56 … need to focus on features that are not print specific 17:44:56 q+ to prioritize use cases before talking to PL 17:45:10 Dave: what matters is what the browsers implement 17:45:13 ack d 17:45:17 some of the same APIs needed for pagination are also needed for handling basic overflow, which browsers are much more interested in 17:45:20 ack tz 17:45:22 ack tzv 17:45:22 tzviya, you wanted to prioritize use cases before talking to PL 17:45:43 Tzviya: we talked about putting together use cases, we will need to prioritize. 17:46:08 q? 17:47:10 Dave: whats next? Talking to Houdini. 17:48:03 q+ 17:48:04 … we will describe the importance of pagination, ask if they need functional requirements, ask what primitives might be needed. 17:48:45 Ivan: do you think its worth planning to have someone on their group in some weeks? Dave: we can try. Ivan: there is a sense of urgency here 17:49:11 Dave: if we can start this conversation well before August so we can have something down on the ground at the F2F 17:49:47 Ivan: easy for me to say, but really all the publishers around this table should try to find people to join the Houdini WG 17:50:05 … they will push back any new work because they dont have the manpower 17:51:03 action: Dave to email PLinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion 17:51:03 Created ACTION-51 - Email plinns to start the pagination-in-houdini discussion [on Dave Cramer - due 2015-06-02]. 17:51:24 ack karen 17:51:58 Karen: understand that CSS has a lot of things on its plate, is there also someone on TAG that should be involved (beyond Peter) 17:52:10 Peter and David are the TAG members most engaged with Houdini 17:52:48 (but they're both CSS members as well) 17:53:30 -> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-houdini/ Houdini mail archives 17:53:50 q? 17:55:51 q+ 17:56:36 Liisa: the lack of pagination cost ereader developers 17:56:45 liisa: it is very difficult for publishers to work in existing world because there is limited hyphenation, widow/orphan control 17:56:45 ... but it also costs publishers hugely 17:57:27 ... I have to explain repeatedly that we do not have as much control over the layout as the editors demand 17:57:47 ...i can add page-break information, but the information may be lost because different systems interpret in different ways 17:58:25 nick: there is also processing cost 17:59:11 liisa: every browser engine has to figure out on its own how to intepret things like widows and orphans 18:00:39 paul: take the conversation away from tradtional books and magazines. look at modular content 18:00:55 q+ 18:01:21 ...there has to be rich support for standard formats. if we stay framed in ink on paper, etc, we will miss an opportunity 18:01:40 q? 18:01:55 Ivan: we have to spell this out in real detail for browsers. We must draft in real detail what the problems are 18:01:57 ack ni 18:01:59 ack Nic 18:02:25 http://www.clickhole.com/blogpost/time-i-spent-commercial-whaling-ship-totally-chang-768 18:02:28 http://usabilitynews.org/the-impact-of-paging-vs-scrolling-on-reading-online-text-passages/ 18:02:41 nick: studies about benefits of scrolling vs. page swiping 18:02:52 q? 18:02:53 http://www.nngroup.com/articles/infinite-scrolling/ 18:03:52 http://ux.stackexchange.com/questions/33406/infinite-scroll-vs-pagination-in-e-commerce-websites 18:03:58 Topic: Accessibility 18:04:03 scribenick: NickRuffilo 18:04:09 present+ Robin Seaman 18:04:20 Title: Accessibility 18:04:28 https://github.com/w3c/dpub-accessibility/blob/gh-pages/Agenda-20150526-dpub~a11y-bisg-collaboration.md 18:04:56 present+ CristinaM 18:05:01 "We all agree that accessibility is important. Let's talk about collaboration between DPUB and BISG" 18:05:17 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:05:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html ivan 18:05:20 ...: "What format should the collaboration should take, what should be the goals of it." 18:05:40 ...: "DPUB accessibility, BISG accessibility, then what form the collab will take. " 18:05:51 Robin: "I'm robin from Benetech, and chair of BISG." 18:06:19 We have a few cross-over BISG/DPUB groups 18:07:08 Charles: "What we've been doing is looking at the W3C WIPEG techniques and seeing what is relevant to DPUB. Most of everything was relavent." 18:07:24 s/WIPEG/WCAG 18:07:38 ...: "We wanted to see what was missing from WCAG that dpub needed and we found about a dozen of topics that were missing." 18:08:13 ...: "These will be apendicies for our notes. What are the best practices, etc. Our next steps are to create this note and fill it out from our info that's existing or what can be enhanced on from WCAG" 18:08:18 q+ 18:08:28 ...: "Note is at a W3C level." 18:09:14 ...: "we're just about finished all the specifics, so it's hard to say whats missing at this point, but we've come up with a few of the more important issues, and now we'll focus on the note, hopefully done before end of year." 18:09:29 ack iv 18:09:54 Ivan: "From practical level/relationship level, it might be better if we first publish a draft - which isn't final - then we go to WCAG with that draft and discuss it with them." 18:10:11 Ivan: "I know they were involved with that, so they aren't in the dark..." 18:10:20 Heather: "Yes, we were going to do that." 18:10:49 s/Heather/Deborah 18:10:50 Ivan: "Gene should be involved, as we had the discussion with her." 18:10:58 Deborah: "We've had discussions with her." 18:11:14 Michael Cooper as well 18:11:17 for WCAG 18:11:48 s/Gene/Jeanne [Spellman] 18:12:00 q+ 18:12:04 Robin: "We're attempting to demystify accessibility. For high-level execs. We're clarifying some of the high-level legal documents" 18:13:13 ...: "What you need to know to create an accessible file. George is helping with that. Hopefully the work George is doing with the baseline document will give people some baseline. We have phenominal participation. It brings together lots of interest groups, distributors, etc. We all find it a rousing meeting. Lots gets discussed. We talk ab 18:13:13 out how we collaborate with people who are doing what we're doing." 18:14:09 ...: "There are so many people who have accessibility initiatives. Tons of documents, lots of stuff going on, so thats why we need specific standards, policies, etc. " 18:14:37 WIPO's ABC http://www.accessiblebooksconsortium.org/portal/en/index.html 18:15:35 ...:" Top tips will be a critical component of the quick-start guide. There was an accessibility panel. To warm everyone up, we gave people a 10-tips document to summarize some of the best practices. It caught fire, AAP, epub3 group... It's grown to 14 tips, but we mainly stick to the top 10." 18:15:53 ...: "we're taking that spirit into the quick start guide to make accessibility accesibility." 18:16:18 q? 18:17:15 Heather: "We got into writing the guide. We gathered a list of existing resources. We discussed with George as well. But all of this will be included in the guide. The question is - how do we work with other organizations who are working on this already. A very basic way we can jump into collaboration is to keep those updates going. It makes 18:17:15 sense to include whatever finalized W3C specs/resources in the guide. We're hoping to publish september. " 18:17:28 q+ 18:17:33 sorry - the above wasn't heather - i'm name impared 18:17:38 q+ 18:17:41 heather: "Do you intend for this to be global? 18:17:45 q- later 18:17:50 ack hea 18:17:54 Robin: "We'll be doing things global" 18:18:00 q+ 18:18:07 ack Bi 18:18:21 ???: "We are going to focus on the US first, since there are alot of global differences, but we do want to think globally" 18:18:42 s/???/Julie 18:19:17 Bill: "what do i need to be aware of, and what do I need to know to do it. It's not telling you how to do it. It points you to resources on how to do it. It doesn't provide you with technical stuff that W3C is providing, it's providing the high-level things for business and points to implementation. It's a complimentary resource." 18:19:20 ack iv 18:20:18 Ivan: "To compliment what you said, There is a separate group at W3C - the education and outreach group - for accessibility. They do try to collect and write things about accessibility, with the caveat that there are differences for WCAG for websites and publications, so there may be a bunch of overlaps." 18:20:36 ...: "Contact Sean Henry to find out what they're doing and avoid overlaps." 18:20:52 ack ka 18:21:15 Karen: "Sharon Rouche from Mobility is the chair of that group and excited to see accessibility in verticals." 18:21:29 Gene: "George - give quick pitch of the doc:" 18:21:31 http://www.knowbility.org 18:21:39 s/Gene/Deborah 18:21:44 s/mobility/knowbility 18:22:14 George: "Publishers have said 'tell me what I have to do to make my document successful'. Even with top-tips, you don't know how far you have to go to make your document accessible. It's becoming more important as we get closer to the americus treaty being announced." 18:22:56 philm has joined #dpub 18:22:58 phil_m has joined #dpub 18:23:11 ...: "I've talked to a person who says: 'it's best if the industry defines the base line for accessibility than the government.' You can't have BISG or other groups declaring a baseline for anti-trust. Hopefully we can drive, but not own, a document that is the baseline for accessibility." 18:24:14 ...: "There will be a difference between trade and education, and I would believe that eduPub would be clear about meeting requirements. It would be an informal agreement. As tools and reading systems improve and features become feasible/practical/usable I'm hoping we can move things up at that time. We want to make sure that MathML gets moved u 18:24:14 p in that baseline. Support within reading systems is important for that now." 18:24:54 Gene: "Unless charles protests, I'm going to skip dpub IG taskforce next steps are. I think that if you want to have say in what's next - attend our weekly friday meetings. Or talk to us on the mailing list. Doesn't need to be now." 18:24:58 -> http://www.w3.org/WAI/EO/ Home page for the Accessibility Education and Outreach WG 18:26:06 ...: "What we can get out of collaboration: One goal we're hoping from this meeting is everyone from the BISG accessibility and DPUB group will know what their next thing to do is. One proposal is that our group can be a good liason between BISG and W3C. " 18:27:01 q? 18:27:07 ...: "If we say 'hey, a bunch of publishers should know about X, Y, and Z, we tell the BISG, and vice-versa. One prospective goal is: each person from BISG says 'i'm going to come up with at least 1 accessibility standard that I know as a whole the publishing industry doesn't know about or understand." 18:27:25 q+ to talk about collab with WAI 18:27:37 q- 18:27:52 ...: "Then W3C can say: 'yeah, there are things we need to do about this.' A year from now or 6 months from now we can review the recommendations and figure out what worked and what did not." 18:28:01 s/Gene: "Unless/Deborah: "/ 18:28:08 q+ 18:28:54 DIAGRAM -- http://diagramcenter.org/standards-and-practices/content-model.html 18:29:01 George: "the BISG accessibility group is fairly new. There's ABC and the DAISY that is putting together materials. We just need to consolidate and make sure everyone is saying the same things " 18:29:27 q+ to ask about working with WAI 18:29:28 ...: "Having a hub that can at least point people in the right direction. That is hopefully something that will evolve out of all these activities." 18:29:31 ack Bi 18:30:14 q+ 18:30:30 Bill: "Something I'm hearing that resonates is that it wasn't a matter of finding the documentation the W3C had was bad, just that it's written for a technical audience - not very readable by business people. Also found quite a bit of documents that people simply were unaware of." 18:30:35 ack tzv 18:30:35 tzviya, you wanted to ask about working with WAI 18:30:36 ...: "For example, a primer." 18:31:32 Tzviya: "I've been attending the accessibility task force. It's eye opening. We actually sat down and picked an idea that we wanted to bring up with authors. The W3C does actually have an education outreach for accessibility." 18:31:52 ack dk 18:31:53 ...: "Then our taskforce can be a liason taskforce." 18:32:50 q+ 18:32:51 Deborah: "The two things: the thing about W3C documentation - it is very great for what it is, and there are starting to be tutorials, but the fact that nearly every organization has a group that has to boil down WCAG, there is clearly a gap. That's the value of having a W3C group. But it's worth a try." 18:32:57 ack iv 18:33:32 Ivan: "Seriously, this kind of bridging is important. I don't know the details of the document that the group produced. I have read them, but a long time ago. This must be done." 18:34:16 Deborah: "I'll give the examples we came up with: The authoring tools guidelines 'assist authors with accessible templates' the success criteria get into the metadata to define if a document is accessibility." 18:34:53 q+ 18:35:00 ...: "No one knows that atag existing. on the WAI mailing list, there was a long conversation 'but we can't do it, it doesn't belong in WCAG' and they didn't think of using atag." 18:35:08 q- 18:35:50 ...: "Another example: The ability to do basic text formatting that you can personally identify what item elements you can allow to change to allow for text formatting." 18:36:15 q? 18:36:32 Bill: "Question for Julie - I want to know about ALL of those. Although SOME of them are for publishers, some are for reading systems. Is that within the scope of the start guide?" 18:36:35 q+ 18:36:59 Julie: "That's a good question - possibly an opportunity" 18:37:18 ack iv 18:38:23 Ivan: "The history of WCAG VS the other CAGs is important to realize - and you reflext it here. WCAG has been extremely successful in places like the EU, where it's gone into legislative power because it went to the largest constiuency around - those who produce webpages. So the other two CAGs are much less in the limelight." 18:38:39 ...: "The fact that a bunch of other users aren't aware of this document isn't just true for publishing." 18:38:44 s/reflext/reflect 18:38:52 Deborah: "It's something we might be in the position to help with." 18:39:20 q+ 18:39:33 Ivan: "At least for the authoring tool - there was a naive believe that no one would author HTML is notepad... And we all see where that left us!" 18:39:41 ack bi 18:40:20 Bill: "One aspect of George's doc and the quick-start is 'who can do this for you' so there are resources out there that can handle things for you. Organizations like benetech, etc." 18:40:29 George: "This is all sync with epubtest as well" 18:40:47 Deborah: "Next steps: I would LOVE it if everyone at this table went home knowing what they're doing next." 18:41:06 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Ralph 18:41:15 ...: "are we all happy with the 'liason' role?" 18:41:47 q+ 18:42:06 q+ 18:42:23 q+ 18:42:28 Robin: "I am on the ABC task force, so I can be a join there." 18:42:52 q+ 18:42:53 Bill: "Deborah, you were saying the Dpub is W3C way of communicating., but BISG is a way to talk to publishing." 18:43:34 ack de 18:43:40 ack dk 18:44:28 s/ABC/AAP/ 18:44:58 BISG is the high-level items, the technical is referred elsewhere 18:45:22 Julie: "Perhaps there is a group, within BISG that would be good to have a discussion on gap analysis" 18:45:45 ack ni 18:46:03 Nick: "Where will things live" 18:46:22 ack iv 18:46:49 Ivan: "Minor practical details. W3C is obsessed with everything being archived. If you can use an e-mail list or something else archived, that would be very useful." 18:46:54 ack ju 18:47:41 Deborah: We wil continue talking and plan communications around the summit. And we'll be consulting on the documents 18:48:02 Break 18:48:05 rrsagent, draft minutes 18:48:05 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen 18:52:16 HeatherF has joined #dpub 19:06:15 scribenick: dauwhe 19:06:33 Topic: education and outreach 19:06:35 Topic: Education & Outreach 19:07:01 patrick_keating has joined #dpub 19:07:06 Nick: I have lots of slides but will go through them quickly 19:07:11 ... then discussion! 19:07:25 ... we've had an awesome time so far... let's solve world hunger! 19:07:31 ... this is epubweb buzz 19:07:40 ... communication, education, and messaging. 19:07:43 ... this is PR 19:07:47 ... 3 audiences: 19:07:51 ... digipub 19:08:02 ... 2. prospective tech members 19:08:08 ... 3. prospective business members 19:08:14 ... each requires a specific voice 19:08:29 ... goal is to keep them separate 19:08:34 ... focusing on internal members 19:08:42 ... focus on value of membership 19:08:48 ... remind on why they're members 19:08:56 ... promote more active membership 19:09:04 ... positive reinforcement for good behaviour 19:09:10 philm has joined #dpub 19:09:12 phil_m has joined #dpub 19:09:13 ... for potential members 19:09:22 ... explaining how contribution is possible 19:09:48 ... to encourage implementation 19:09:59 present+ Jeff Jaffe 19:10:09 ... letting new app developers learn about a11y, for example 19:10:17 ... for prospective business members 19:10:24 ... explain how standards organizations work 19:10:25 [Jeff Jaffe arrives] 19:10:28 ... it's a black hole 19:10:33 ... explaining how a standard works 19:10:48 ... explaining how the industry can help shape standards 19:11:01 ... how it ultimately comes from a human need 19:11:05 jeff has joined #dpub 19:11:16 ... pagination is not a human need ;) 19:11:22 ... these are business requirements 19:11:37 ... first step: what w3c does 19:11:42 ... documentation, tutorials 19:11:49 ... second step is more niche 19:11:55 ... conveying message of what is DPUB 19:12:01 ... how do those standards work 19:12:11 ... constant buzz is the goal 19:12:29 ... the biggest issue is that w3c should be as visible as bandaids 19:12:30 q+ to talk about our gh repo of slides 19:12:36 ... should constantly be out there 19:12:42 ... press releases 19:12:48 ... if we can do one action item per month 19:12:55 ... then you'll be aware 19:13:07 ... within a years time most publishers will be aware 19:13:24 ... press releases, articles and editorials 19:13:41 ... there are only a few journals in publishing 19:13:50 ... i'd like to build a relationship with them 19:14:01 ... what's going on with a11y, for example 19:14:11 ... dbw, publishing perspectives... 19:14:18 ... creating bonds so we can get our message out 19:14:23 q? 19:14:27 ... blog posts, webinars, web-based presentations 19:14:38 ... taking conference slides and putting them up in a central location 19:14:44 ... so they can easily be found 19:14:48 ... like TED 19:15:10 ... human readable documentation and guidelines 19:15:21 ... there's a business audience and there's the tech audience 19:15:36 ... to start, build a set of executive summaries for the business user 19:15:42 ... why it's important to their business 19:16:00 ... guidelines on how to build an executive summary 19:16:18 ... creating a social media presence 19:16:22 ... LinkedIn 19:16:39 ... automatically post to various social media destinations 19:16:44 qq? 19:16:47 q? 19:16:50 ... any one in group should be able to contribute 19:16:55 ... avoiding bottlenecks 19:17:35 ... relationship building with media outlets 19:17:37 q+ 19:17:44 ... human-readable documentation 19:17:49 Julie has joined #dpub 19:17:51 ... high-level conceptual documents 19:17:57 ... i.e. executive summaries 19:18:05 ... guidelines for technical users 19:18:07 ack tzv 19:18:07 tzviya, you wanted to talk about our gh repo of slides 19:18:09 ... that's it! 19:18:12 tzviya: thanks nick! 19:18:20 ... I'll add a few links 19:18:25 ... we all want to do this stuff 19:18:27 https://github.com/w3c/dpub 19:18:40 ... the short minutes, for example, came out of a request for executive summaries 19:18:50 ... here's a repo of our slides 19:19:01 ivan: and ADD TO IT!!!!! 19:19:07 http://www.w3.org/blog/dpub/ 19:19:07 tzviya: we have a blog 19:19:16 ... that's where the short minutes go 19:19:23 ... add to it. write for it! 19:19:32 ... if you write for it, tweet about it! 19:19:45 ... exec summary is a good idea 19:19:56 ... just did that for *CAG documents 19:20:03 ivan: I do that too 19:20:03 present+ jeff 19:20:29 Nick: build everything with w3c in mind, so it can all become a broader thing 19:20:43 tzviya: important to have an audience in mind; Karen has been hard at work on that 19:20:52 ... having this be a group effort is important 19:21:23 Nick: having all of these resources on how to write these things--make it easy for people 19:21:43 q? 19:21:46 ack dk 19:21:53 dkaplan3_: do we have a blog? I didn't know 19:22:03 ... do we clear it with someone if we want to post 19:22:13 ivan: if you're in the IG you have write permission 19:22:22 dkaplan3_: do you want us to ask permission? 19:22:34 Karen: maybe for light editiorial touch 19:22:36 [Liam Quin joins by phone] 19:22:46 ... I have communication role at w3c 19:22:57 ... we can do light editing and advice 19:23:08 dkaplan3_: my second question. There's lots of us here 19:23:28 Present+ Liam 19:23:29 ... at my workplace, we want to get 1/2 posts/month, can divide up amongst lots of people 19:23:40 ... could queue up posts 19:23:43 q+ 19:23:52 ... we could do 15 dpub posts in september 19:24:07 Nick: personally, I've started a timeline for the next year 19:24:16 ... when i'd like certain events to occur 19:24:42 ... what is that one action item per month, then we can find owners 19:24:50 ... we don't have a blog strategy 19:25:06 ... if you want to write something, write it. 19:25:24 q+ 19:25:35 ... but might be complicated with things that should be published by (digital) journal 19:25:47 ack iv 19:25:54 tzviya: company blog posts could be reposted 19:25:57 ivan: blog is fine 19:26:02 ... people have to know it's there 19:26:26 ... I'm more excited about regular entry to DBW or something like taht 19:26:30 s/taht/that/ 19:26:41 ... that's what I would emphasize 19:26:53 pbelfanti has joined #dpub 19:26:55 ... once they find us there, then they might come to the blog 19:27:07 Nick: I'm assuming we have no mailing list, no buzz 19:27:17 ... first goal is to work with DBW on webinar 19:27:19 +q 19:27:32 ... we could get a pretty good showing with w3c name 19:27:46 ... I have connections with most of the journals 19:27:53 ... we could do something regularly 19:27:58 ... we're a name of authority 19:28:02 q+ 19:28:07 ack je 19:28:10 ivan: with limited time and energy, we should focus there 19:28:26 jeff: you're asking for content, and a community to read the content 19:28:32 ... we must have a huge mailing list 19:28:43 ... we could let them know we're starting to have a discussion 19:28:53 ... for content, I'll volunteer to do the June blog 19:29:06 Nick: can I do as press outreach 19:29:24 ... if it's Jeff, we can even do something like Forbes 19:29:39 Jeff: for Forbes, I'll need help :) 19:29:49 ... we did a nice thing for American Banker 19:30:05 Karen: we've had volunteers for helping with webinars 19:30:14 tzviya: markus and I have lots of presos 19:30:22 ivan: our presos are very technical 19:30:38 Nick: i could write business explanation of technical presentation 19:30:45 ack pbel 19:30:45 tzviya: I've done that too 19:31:16 pbelfanti: it's important to acknowledge participants/contributors 19:31:38 ... if that acknowledgment is public, it helps with their managers, etc. 19:31:51 Nick: that might be a good thing for the blog 19:32:07 ivan: when I do meeting overviews, I chose a style of not mentioning names 19:32:16 ... maybe I should mention names 19:32:25 tzviya: let's try 19:32:29 ack he 19:32:47 HeatherF: Who is we? The W3C? DPUB? 19:33:03 Nick: We've been switching a lot. It's mostly DPUB 19:33:09 ... the royal we is W3C 19:33:39 George: Benetech has just put in a grant to DOE, that will focus on DPUB 19:33:43 ... that would be good blog post 19:33:57 tzviya: we have an assignment for june 19:34:06 ... we'll put together a plan 19:34:22 ... and Nick will write for something like Publishing Perspectives 19:34:53 [switching presenters] 19:34:55 action Nick create plan for DPUB PR 19:34:55 Error finding 'Nick'. You can review and register nicknames at . 19:35:23 action nruffilo create plan DPUB PR 19:35:23 Created ACTION-52 - Create plan dpub pr [on Nicholas Ruffilo - due 2015-06-02]. 19:35:47 Topic: rechartering 19:35:47 Scribenick: Karen 19:36:01 scribenick: dauwhe 19:36:07 chair: mgylling 19:36:08 mgylling: expires in september 19:36:20 ... we've been working on new charter proposal 19:36:28 ... Ivan will show a first draft 19:36:44 ... we anticipate modifications 19:36:56 ... focus on how it differs from our current charter 19:37:13 -> http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html DRAFT Charter for next DPUB IG 19:37:16 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html 19:37:17 ivan: the current charter was written we didn't have a clear idea of where we were going 19:37:21 ... so it's very general 19:37:50 ... this charter does two new things 19:37:57 ... 1. It puts epubweb into the picture 19:38:14 ... tries to describe work in terms of epubweb 19:38:29 ... would look at all the technical issues 19:38:42 ... the doc includes extract from white paper 19:38:54 ... the important thing is that the group should look at the technical issues 19:39:02 ... perhaps beyond the white paper 19:39:19 ... in doing so it's OK for the group to do technical specification work, but not a standard 19:39:25 NickRuffilo has joined #dpub 19:39:51 ... in the course of the work, the group has to identify those tech features that need standardization and are not covered by existing working groups 19:40:12 ... so we ask w3c to set up a new working group to do that feature 19:40:20 ... sortof like the annotation wg 19:40:31 ... although that also had a CG 19:40:41 ... additional thing 19:40:58 ... this group would act as meeting point between rest of w3c and what happens in IDPF on epub 3.1 19:41:11 ... lots of things in draft charter that are related to w3c standards 19:41:29 ... it's for two years 19:41:40 ... that's the sense of it 19:41:45 ... anything else, ralph? 19:41:50 Ralph: I want to hear discussion 19:41:56 ivan: mechanics 19:42:04 q+ 19:42:11 ... according to our rules and traditions, we will issue advance notice to AC members, not a formal vote 19:42:22 ... might go out this week 19:42:30 ... then depends how much work has to be done on this charter 19:42:35 q- 19:42:42 ... then we can send out charter for formal vote around the end of june 19:42:48 q+ 19:42:51 ... we might even be recharter before old one runs out 19:43:00 q+ 19:43:02 ... but we could also extend old charter if necessary 19:43:06 tzviya: question 19:43:18 ... we put lots of epubweb language here 19:43:19 q? 19:43:23 ... very tied to epub/idpf 19:43:26 q+ george 19:43:42 ... IDPF is responsible for specs 19:43:55 ... w3c is working on foundational stuff 19:44:06 ... are we vision holders? Is that what we're supposed to do? 19:44:25 ivan: if there are specific technical issues, we'll address on case-by-case basis 19:44:33 ... whether it should be at idpf or w3c 19:44:43 ... for example, web packaging 19:44:57 +q 19:45:01 ... the webapps group may decide packaging isnt interesting 19:45:09 ... then we might take it up at DPUB 19:45:24 ... or there may be some things where natural home is idpf 19:45:28 ack jeff 19:45:50 jeff: perspective in w3c team 19:46:06 ... later are two sections, deliverables and timeline, both of which are tbd 19:46:16 ... when it goes for formal approval, those things are important 19:46:34 ... Ivan would want your input on what the deliverables and timelines are 19:46:55 ... to tzviya's point, if the deliverable is a vision of a future and timeline is 2025, that won't fly 19:47:08 ... so we should have some of those conversations now 19:47:28 ... a deliverable should be "we expect to analyze manifests"... or something like that 19:47:36 ... or we'll have a task force to do xyz 19:47:55 ivan: can i add one thing 19:48:09 ... one major difference between WG and IG 19:48:24 ... that difference is enforced strictly 19:48:30 ... WG is much more stringent 19:48:39 ... in IG it's less stringent 19:49:01 ack cla 19:49:01 ... I could not write charter for EPUBWEB WG because I don't know the deliverables 19:49:05 clapierre: a couple things 19:49:11 ... one: I assume we stay as IG 19:49:21 ... two: is there a chance it will be rejected 19:49:22 q+ 19:49:48 ivan: we have 400 members, some of whom might object 19:50:12 Scribenick: Karen 19:50:19 Ivan: Maybe it's a good idea to emphasize this point 19:50:23 …that it's continuation of the work 19:50:42 …but if there are items…the DPub area; the Accessibility notes that have begun will be continued and finalized in the new one 19:50:48 ack George 19:50:48 ack george 19:50:52 George: question answered 19:50:53 ack pbel 19:51:04 Paul: Back to Tzviya's point on the vision 19:51:11 …will this group be a steering committee? 19:51:25 …Do we make it so…does action happen or does it go to a group and they say they are not interested 19:51:30 …how much authority do we have? 19:51:36 …Do we spin up a new group for example? 19:51:42 Ivan: I have to ask my bosses 19:51:53 Jeff: If there is a topic that you would like to persuade and existing WG to do 19:51:57 …like CSS or WebApps 19:52:03 q+ 19:52:03 …it's always a negotiation. 19:52:09 …They get more demands than what they can do 19:52:27 …if this steering committee determines that a WG is needed to own a new piece of technical turf 19:52:35 …assuming that is sensible, you can spin up your own WG 19:52:42 …you would need to have the technical expertise to do it 19:53:08 Paul: if this group articulates well what the requirements are to create this EPUB/Web format and the deliverables to be in place for it to work 19:53:19 …what happens to those requirements 19:53:25 Jeff: Let's take an example 19:53:48 …Three years ago the Web and TV IG folks determined that media streaming needed to be done in HTML5 19:53:53 …so they brought that to that group 19:54:03 q? 19:54:06 …Also saw second screen was important and they started a Community Group 19:54:15 …that then spun up into a Working Group 19:54:19 …so many options are possible 19:54:26 George: Did they put people into that WG? 19:54:36 Jeff: yes, they did and helped bring new people 19:54:48 Ivan: This IG should be active in setting up the charter of a new Working Group 19:54:55 …a WG is much more accountable to what is in the charter 19:55:09 q+ to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV 19:55:09 …They don't have possibility to say it sounded like a good idea…otherwise group is out 19:55:20 …This charter has a major influence on new WGs through your vote 19:55:25 ..and you have the power to call it 19:55:27 ack dkap 19:55:37 Deborah: more of a comment on this specific draft 19:55:43 …On Accessibility TF discussions 19:55:47 …Does DigPub mean EPUB? 19:55:54 …Go back and read the EPUB docs? 19:55:57 …no it did not 19:56:08 …But now it looks like we're saying Digital Publishing needs EPUB 19:56:13 Tzviya: Need a new name 19:56:19 s/needs/means/ 19:56:32 Ivan: if you look at the white paper, we go out of our way to say it goes beyond electronic books 19:56:51 Deborah: Are we going to say our focus will be on EPUB/Web to exclusion of other digital publishing technologies 19:57:00 …that other things won't use what we are calling EPUB/Web 19:57:04 Tzviya: We cannot do that 19:57:12 Ivan; we need more than brownie points for a good name 19:57:24 Deborah: not just question of EPUB/Web, but what DigPub cares about 19:57:37 …Do we care about Time.com and what they put up on HTML; is that Digital Publishing 19:57:45 ..We went into the weeds in the Accessibility Group 19:57:50 Jeff: If you look at what's up there 19:57:54 …is our vision for EPUB/Web 19:58:01 …first visual of the charter is all EPUB/Web 19:58:13 …which is what Deborah is saying; should not be the exclusive topic 19:58:21 Ivan: Yes, I take the point and should not try to solve it 19:58:26 Dave: the mission and the percents 19:58:32 q? 19:58:36 Ivan: many brownie points for new name 19:58:41 ack Nick 19:59:16 Nick: It sounds like we have…this group is straddling between W3C creating amazing specs for this ideal wonderful product and we have IDPF creating a very specific format 19:59:23 …to suffice needs of industry to do publishing 19:59:29 …and doing good job to keep the communication going 19:59:32 …Not sure of timeline 19:59:40 …what about communications of liaison and gap analysis 19:59:46 …determine where EPUB is lacking in W3C 19:59:50 …and where W3C is lacking in EPUB 19:59:52 …and from that 19:59:59 …if we cannot convince CSS to do pagination 20:00:06 …then maybe a WG on pagination is necessary 20:00:10 …but determine that it's a gap 20:00:11 q+ 20:00:16 …is that a direction to head in? 20:00:20 Ivan: I'm a bit afraid 20:00:26 …the way you formulated it 20:00:34 …sounds like putting EPUB and the rest of W3C 20:00:44 ..as an opposite to one another; not what you meant, but the way it sounds 20:00:53 …it's more a matter of using more the term 20:01:02 …portable documents, a more neutral term 20:01:06 …not like EPUB everywhere 20:01:15 ..to get the whole of publishing into the picture 20:01:24 …not this is what is missing from EPUB 20:01:30 Markus: I understand your approach 20:01:37 ..but note the items we have called out 20:01:47 …the incongruencies for EPUB/Web 20:01:52 …the gap analysis you are talking about 20:02:00 …is instead the list of items that need work 20:02:04 …i hope we are good on that list 20:02:10 …We may remove or add some from the list 20:02:17 …but we have some clear directions 20:02:18 q? 20:02:23 ack Ralph 20:02:26 Ralph: I deferred to Nick 20:02:32 …Paul asked what influence this group has 20:02:36 …under this or some other charter 20:02:53 …The influence we have is related to the previous discussions about BISG and Accessibility 20:03:10 …and Nick's discussion on the broader community to make sure their needs are addressed in the specifications 20:03:25 …So part of this group is to 'lobby' requirements say with CSS 20:03:39 …and we may not see their reaction being suitable 20:03:49 …More consistent theme, the more likely our requirements will get the priority 20:04:00 …Deborah asked another question that I wanted to hear more discussion 20:04:07 …this charter is focused on an important item 20:04:13 …[EPUB/Web vision] 20:04:18 …and while we work on that vision with IDPF 20:04:24 …Does it make sense to do that all in one place 20:04:30 …or until we have right set of names 20:04:38 …is there an EPUB/Web IG and the rest of digital publishing 20:04:46 …there are a lot of important things to do 20:04:53 …Do we bulk up this charter for EPUB/Web 20:05:01 …or do we do as Deborah and I both read 20:05:13 q+ 20:05:15 …and it's about one specific item but acknowledge that there are many other things to do 20:05:23 …Don't have a strong feeling, but likely the chairs would 20:05:37 Markus: First observation is that we have severe resource constraints 20:05:48 …taking on everything that digital publishing could want makes me cringe 20:05:53 …We should take a few steps at a time 20:06:09 …which steps are right for now is another question 20:06:25 …But an over-ambitious charter that does not reflect our partiicpation ability today 20:06:37 Ralph: if we don't say we want to do those things, people may not come either 20:06:49 Tzviya: We want to keep this vision in mind as we work on digital publishing 20:06:52 …having a separate WG 20:07:00 ..we don't get other members other than those who are already here 20:07:08 …approach that Markus and I were taking is as a guiding principle 20:07:24 …maybe we need to take a closer look at what we can accomplish over next few months 20:07:35 ..and we could couch that in terms of EPUB/Web as the vision and less of the deliverable 20:07:38 q+ 20:07:39 q? 20:07:45 …I was going to add 20:07:45 ack tzv 20:07:45 tzviya, you wanted to address how we are taking the same approach in DPUB as TV 20:07:57 …Jeff mentioned the comparison to what Web TV group did 20:08:11 …Dave is working in CSS, Tzviya and @ have been working in P&F 20:08:16 …spending time in the WG meetings 20:08:23 …yes, there is a resource limitation...recruit 20:08:25 …We do same thing 20:08:35 …ARIA draft we are working on should have a first public working group soon 20:08:37 …it works 20:08:38 ack cla 20:08:42 Charles: quick question 20:08:54 …with EPUB/Web naming; is it EPUB or Web or both? 20:09:00 Tzviya: We'll call it Houdini book 20:09:03 q? 20:09:08 ack dkap 20:09:13 Deborah: Also about the naming issue 20:09:18 …when we talk about our focus as a group 20:09:25 …i wonder if I made a misjudgment 20:09:37 …I assumed that because it's called EPUB/Web it's being driven by IDPF 20:09:43 …or by W3C? 20:09:55 Ivan: Markus and I have been writing down ideas 20:10:12 Deborah: To extent it will exist as a thing, will it be driven from W3C and the DigPub IG? 20:10:22 Ivan: I would like to be able to say that neither in the sense that 20:10:31 …this is something that is driven by the two organizations in cooperation 20:10:39 …how that is done admiistratively is a different issue 20:10:46 …i think the vision is something that came out of 20:10:52 …a joint discussion of two parties 20:10:59 …one from IDPF and one from W3C 20:11:02 …that is how I look at it 20:11:11 …it's owned by both and not exclusively owned by two 20:11:23 Deborah: that does imply more participation from DPub and EPUB3 20:11:26 …which is a standard 20:11:35 BillM q+ 20:11:35 q? 20:11:46 …I'm trying to understand the level of focus for EPUB /Web 20:11:49 q+ 20:11:49 q+ BillM 20:12:02 …something to contribute to , or something that won't happen unless we put energy into it 20:12:16 Ivan: part of that blue stuff has to be removed; clarify understanding 20:12:27 …Difference of what is there today; publishing on web or on Bluefire 20:12:33 …these kinds of differences should disappear 20:12:39 …all the rest is additional stuff 20:12:52 …because we are bringingtogether two different worlds 20:13:02 …it's clear these two organizations are working together 20:13:06 …this is how the name came about 20:13:17 …i don't think either organization exclusively owns this 20:13:25 Markus: I don't know either 20:13:47 …the eventual nature of the WG that would take this into an implementable reality is not... 20:13:53 …there is no ambition to start that WG 20:14:02 …but that list of building blocks that are necessary don't exist yet 20:14:09 …They would need to wait for the building blocks 20:14:12 q? 20:14:22 ..IG needs to do plumbing with other WGs within W3C to get something implementable 20:14:42 Bill: EPUB/Web is a constellation of specs to become more interoperable 20:14:49 Bill: Say a couple words about it 20:14:52 ack BillM 20:14:59 …part of what you are asking is a branding and marketing question, not a spec question 20:15:13 …whether it will be called EPUB or XYZ will depend upon the vector we go on 20:15:21 …if EPUB1 succeeds on the building block specs 20:15:30 …there will be more desire to call it EPUB 20:15:45 …but if it takes a radical invention that takes it further from EPUB, then we'll call it something else 20:15:56 …IDPF would prefer something that stays with EPUB and not undermine our current work 20:16:10 …but we are happy to encompass the possibility that the branding and technology will evolve 20:16:14 …not sure if that is any clearer 20:16:16 q? 20:16:20 ack Nick 20:16:22 q+ Liisa 20:16:24 Nick: Two names to toss out there 20:16:35 …the packaged content group or published content group 20:16:48 …difference between a free blog and a $9.99 ebook is the package 20:16:56 …we have seen the package sell because it provides value 20:17:04 …things happen in the packaged content provides value 20:17:18 …it's an attempt to distill what's done in the print world 20:17:27 …and dertermine the value of packaged content in the spec 20:17:33 …it gets rid of the EPUB/Web 20:17:38 …and thinks about the value of the content 20:17:46 …packaged content and published content 20:17:58 Ralph: brainstorming for now 20:18:03 Ivan: only worry I have 20:18:09 …I understand what you say 20:18:15 …is not having any reference to the web may mislead 20:18:25 …I would modify it a bit by saying packaged web content 20:18:32 Nick: doesn't web mean online? 20:18:40 Bill: think Open Web Platform 20:18:45 Dave: sound too much like Apps 20:18:50 Ivan; A bit like WebApps 20:19:01 …I understand what you say and the importance of packaging we discussed earlier today 20:19:02 q? 20:19:07 Nick: something to think about 20:19:08 ack pbel 20:19:25 Paul: to the point about what organization governs it or how the orgs work together 20:19:38 …a lot will depend upon how the existing specs exist or don't and how they evolve 20:19:44 ..EDUPUB specs combine together 20:19:49 …it's the alliance and an umbrella 20:19:58 …if we continue to leverage existing specs, we create new specs 20:20:02 …and who drives that 20:20:19 q+ 20:20:21 …it will get more complicated, but deal with it when we get there 20:20:26 Nick: lots of products out there 20:20:36 …when you brand it more broadly, you allow for more future things 20:20:44 …EPUB has done a great job for an online container 20:20:49 ack Liisa 20:20:52 Paul: agree with that, but need something that is sexier sounding 20:20:59 Liisa: I want to go back to Deborah's question 20:21:05 …Today the clear example we talked about today 20:21:14 …If we need to solve pagination, widows and orphans 20:21:21 …those things likely have a place in a WG within W3C 20:21:25 …we have worked at IDPF 20:21:39 …knowing they were unsolved problems and we did not address them 20:21:41 dkaplan3 has joined #dpub 20:21:43 …We leaned on HTML and CSs 20:21:47 …and when they solve it they solve 20:22:01 …it. But now this group has the opportunity to raise the issue and try to solve it 20:22:07 …it makes it better for the Web and for EPUB 20:22:11 acl patri 20:22:14 ack patri 20:22:20 Patrick: maybe one word of caution on 'what's in a name' thing 20:22:29 …I hope that people don't get spec fatigue if we name it something else 20:22:35 …We have had EPUB2 that was pretty successful 20:22:40 …EPUB3 which was a lot of work 20:22:56 …but where is the traction in the authoring tools and consumer understanding 20:23:00 …I understand the ideas here 20:23:05 …and the discussions with other WGs 20:23:18 …but at some point, I cannot keep up with what you were doing two years ago 20:23:21 …maybe EPUB4.0 20:23:30 Ivan: We did have EPUB in our discussion in the past 20:23:36 …fear we had is if we call it EPUB4 20:23:43 q+ 20:23:43 …the people working on EPUB3 will run away 20:23:50 Patrick: that is valid 20:23:54 q- 20:23:57 Ivan: We called it EPUB Next 20:24:05 Patrick: that's how you will kill it 20:24:09 ..maybe the lack of a name 20:24:15 Tzviya: Valdemordt 20:24:15 q? 20:24:33 Dave: EPUB Zero 20:24:38 Markus: So what are next steps for the charter? 20:24:45 Ivan: This will go out as an advance notice 20:24:53 …saying this is a draft under discussions 20:25:02 …So we'll have some discussions this Friday 20:25:05 …and in coming weeks 20:25:07 …we will make changes 20:25:11 …it is on GitHub 20:25:16 http://w3c.github.io/dpub-charter/index.html 20:25:20 …so I would very much like if you submit comments or pull requests 20:25:30 …to make our iife easier in the coming weeks 20:25:35 …When we feel it is mature enough 20:25:45 post issues to https://github.com/w3c/dpub-charter/issues 20:25:45 …Formally speaking we then give it to W3C managment (w3M) 20:25:55 …and if they say yes, it goes out to W3C membership 20:25:59 …four weeks at the minimum 20:26:06 …but in summer we may give it six weeks 20:26:11 …Then we look at the responses 20:26:16 ..there are always comments coming 20:26:21 …We take the comments into account 20:26:31 …If there are formal objections, then we have to deal with it 20:26:44 Ralph: The current charter ends Sept 20:26:49 …hope we want to continue meeting 20:26:59 …We want to have a new charter we are comfortable with by July 1 20:27:05 …so sharpen the pencils 20:27:14 q? 20:27:16 Markus: Any more questions 20:27:26 Brady: Japan does fall outside of our charter 20:27:32 …it is cutting plane reservations short 20:27:41 Tzviya: We are on the preliminary agenda 20:27:43 q+ 20:27:52 Ivan: If we can get charter done by end of June 20:28:09 …then I do not expect W3M objecting to extend the current charter until procedure ends 20:28:10 ack jeff 20:28:11 ack Jeff 20:28:20 Jeff: for all the comments that Ivan made to explain the process 20:28:28 …I am not aware of anyone who objects to this activity 20:28:46 …correct, we may have surprises, but unlikely to have objections from a planning perspective 20:28:53 …sufficient apathy should be a guideline 20:29:19 …at least 5 percent of membership should join 20:29:28 …If everyone remembers to vote and wants to continue 20:29:37 …unless we put something surprising acidic in the charter 20:29:52 rrsagent, draft minutes 20:29:52 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen 20:29:59 Markus: with 15 seconds to go... 20:30:06 …WebEx on Monday 20:30:12 …We thank you all for coming today 20:30:23 Tzviya: and thank Phil for hosting us today 20:30:26 [Applause] 20:30:34 …and thank Nick for the peanut butter treat 20:30:39 [Meeting Adjourns] 20:30:46 rrsagent, draft minutes 20:30:46 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/26-dpub-minutes.html Karen 20:42:14 johanneswilm has joined #dpub 20:46:57 philm has joined #dpub 20:46:59 phil_m has joined #dpub 20:51:53 HeatherF has joined #dpub