14:47:55 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:47:55 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-irc 14:47:57 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:47:57 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:47:59 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:47:59 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 13 minutes 14:48:00 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:48:00 Date: 21 May 2015 14:48:23 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 14:48:44 Agenda+ Best Practices - understandable 14:48:45 Agenda+ Feedback from WCAG 14:48:47 Agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, April 28 14:52:28 Regrets: Alan, David_McDonald, Henny_Swan, Mike_Shebanek 15:00:04 Jan has joined #mobile-a11y 15:00:59 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:07 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started 15:01:14 +Jeanne 15:02:19 -Jeanne 15:02:20 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended 15:02:20 Attendees were Jeanne 15:03:47 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:06:15 scribe: jeanne 15:14:01 [discussion of WebEx issues and WebEx Captcha 15:14:24 Topic: Technique assignments 15:14:49 Kathy: We are setting up a chart with the proposed techniques on them 15:15:10 ... we asked WCAG WG for feedback on the proposed Operable techniques 15:15:42 ... we need to set up concise wording for Perceivable and Understandable 15:16:06 ... they were sent to WCAG with insufficient context and numbering that was confusing the WCAG WG members 15:17:13 ... that has delayed the WCAG response 15:19:32 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/WCAG_Feedback 15:24:19 Topic: Understandable Technique 15:24:40 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Understandable_Techniques 15:25:00 Kathy: I want to get the list of Technques that we want to create related to Understandable in the Mobile Accessibility Note 15:25:22 ... some of these are already tied to existing WCAG items 15:25:30 ... we could alter some existing ones 15:25:53 ... or we can propose new Techniques for mobile for Understandable 15:26:06 zakim take up item 1 15:26:09 ... Consistent layout - portrait or landscape 15:26:44 Jan: We want to see the same layout for portrait and landscape? 15:26:52 zakim, take up next 15:26:52 agendum 1. "Best Practices - understandable" taken up [from Kim] 15:27:06 Kathy: consistency 15:27:06 Kathy: You have to have consistency across pages, 15:27:23 Jan: so all pages should have similar layout 15:27:33 Jan: All of the pages across your site when displayed in portrait should have consistency? 15:27:46 Kathy: but you don't have to have consistency between a portrait or landscape mode for example 15:27:57 okay 15:28:12 s/okay// 15:28:58 Jan: So are we waiving the requirement between consistent groups as long as it is consistent within the group? 15:29:28 Jon: That is consistent with current interpretation because the user initiates a change from portrait to landscape. 15:30:09 ... I think that would best go in an Understanding document about portrait vs landscape 15:30:24 Kathy: agrees 15:30:50 Here's the relevant tech: http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20150226/G61 15:31:09 Jan: It could be included as a note in the existing Technique -- including info on changing landscape and portrait. 15:33:28 Positioning Page Elements before the Scroll 15:34:42 Jeanne: I would prefer to drop this because scrolling has become a direction of modern web design, rather than including all important elements cluttering the initial load. Unless it is a huge accessibility issue, I would prefer not to use it. 15:35:25 Jan: I agree, the ubiquitous hamberger control is always above the fold. 15:36:05 Kim: I don't use voice control on the phone. It is important to see the important elements above the scroll in desktop 15:36:23 ... we aren't there with controlling a mobile phone with speech, so I don't have a strong opinion 15:36:30 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 15:37:24 ... if the gap between putting words on the screen and voice control on mobile closes, then it may be an issue. I would prefer not to lock this down. 15:38:22 Jon: I think it belongs more in Operable. 15:38:58 Jeanne: I see long term problems of increasing clutter in above the scroll, where designers are trying to de-clutter the initial load 15:39:07 Kim: It seems more perscriptive 15:39:18 Kathy: SHould we put this under Navigation? 15:39:41 Jon: Would this help us meet a success criteria under Operable? I don't see it. 15:39:59 Kathy: Maybe we leave it in the Note and not have any Best PRactices or Techniques. 15:40:37 http://w3c.github.io/Mobile-A11y-TF-Note/#positioning-important-page-elements-before-the-page-scroll 15:42:10 Jeanne: Maybe we should add a sentence to say that excessive clutter is detrimental to users, so if there are many important objects, make it clear that there is more information if the user scrolls down. 15:43:17 Kathy: If you know where something is on the screen, it is easy to get to it. As soon as you start scrolling, you lose certainty to where things are, rather than at some random scroll point. 15:43:41 ... there is greater usability and understanding with the initial loading screen. 15:44:31 Jan: I think we can just say it. I don't think it rises to the level of Technique or Best Practice. 15:44:47 Kathy: There isn't research to back this. It is just an observation. 15:45:11 Jan: Clutter doesn't come under WCAG. 15:45:28 Kathy: Maybe it doesn't belong in the Note 15:46:05 Jan: Maybe it goes with navigation and consistency of control because it is hard to find things when there is a lot of clutter in the page. 15:47:10 Jeanne: Maybe we should contact the Cognitive Accessibility Task Force and see if they have identified information that should be in this section. 15:47:42 Kathy: would someone volunteer to take an action item to contact Cognative Accessibility TF? 15:49:23 Jon: I was looking under Predictability, and this could be a good location for it. 15:50:09 ... if we contact CogoTF, we can ask this 15:51:08 action: Jon to reach out to Cognative Accessibility Task Force and ask for their input on Understandable section of Note and specifically on positioning important elements above the scroll. 15:51:09 Created ACTION-31 - Reach out to cognative accessibility task force and ask for their input on understandable section of note and specifically on positioning important elements above the scroll. [on Jonathan Avila - due 2015-05-28]. 15:51:28 Grouping Operable Elements 15:52:26 Kim: It is important that they follow the standard keyboard shortcutes, but that probably belongs with Keyboard section 15:52:53 Provide clear indication that elements are actionable 15:53:06 Kathy: We have Techniques for this. 15:54:49 Jan: Often there is no need for this. If people use the standard elements, there is not a problem. If you break it, you have to fix it. 15:55:39 Kathy: C15, G165 using default focus indicator 15:55:47 ... G195 15:56:13 ... G149 15:57:16 Jon: There are aimed at visible focus. What we are saying is that if you are using a touchscreen, you don't know if it is actionable. So we are taking it a step further. 15:57:33 Jeanne: agrees 15:58:14 Jan: we have to make sure we don't ask people to have to customize. When iOS changed to the flat format, it caused problems, but that is iOS' problem to solve, not everyone elses. 15:58:29 Kathy: Do we have something in UAAG. 15:58:40 Jan: Yes, from the web perspective 15:59:15 Kathy: On mobile, often we have no idea that objects are actionable. We have a problem of knowing what is actionable, and how to interact with it. 15:59:34 Jan: If it is a custom object, then you need to provide affordances 16:00:00 ... I don't wnat to see losing the consistency that platforms provide in order to provide affordances 16:00:32 Kathy: Button shapes are a good example of how you can change that in the OS and have it change the application. 16:00:43 ... do we want a technique for Custom Controls? 16:01:28 * have to jump off to another call 16:01:29 Jan: I think so. It is parallel with WCAG 4.1.2 - name, role, value. You can make your own, but it is on you to make it accessible. 16:01:59 Jan: The affordances are on you. 16:02:18 Kathy: Let's pick this up on the next call. It goes with the next section as well. Custom controls. 16:02:28 rrsagent, make minutes 16:02:28 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne 16:02:43 rrsagent, make logs public 16:03:14 present+ Jan, Kathy, Kim, Jon 16:03:19 rrsagent, make minutes 16:03:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/21-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne 17:21:01 jeanne has left #mobile-a11y