18:42:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:42:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-irc
18:42:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:42:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:42:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:42:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
18:42:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:42:59 <trackbot> Date: 19 May 2015
18:44:02 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:44:15 <clown> present+ Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:44:20 <clown> agenda: this
18:44:27 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests.
18:44:34 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1542: (Joanie) Verify the commit for mozilla bug 1013584 and report the atk role to Joseph.
18:44:41 <clown> agneda+ ISSUE-635: (Joseph) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup.
18:44:54 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-635: (Joseph) AAPI mappings for role rowgroup.
18:45:01 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1544: (Cynthia) Document rowgroup mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia
18:45:09 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1546: (David) Make sure the rowgroup mapping for MSAA/IA2 is accurate.
18:45:17 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1547: (Rich) Update test test cases involving rowgroup to ensure they are included within a grid container and to ensure that the expected result matches the new mappings.
18:45:24 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1620: (Cynthia) Propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder.
18:45:31 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1623: (Joseph) Confirm with James Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue.
18:45:37 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1621: (Joseph) Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec.
18:45:43 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1585: (Cynthia) Add to the section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of uia.
18:45:49 <clown> agenda+ Action/issue triage (https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23)
18:45:56 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:00:14 <joanie> present+ Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:02:33 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:03:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> found it
19:03:23 <clown> rich: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?iso=20150519T15&p1=250&ah=1
19:05:02 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:05:43 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:06:25 <bgaraventa1979> present+Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:57 <bgaraventa1979> present+ Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:18 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:07:18 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests." taken up [from clown]
19:07:24 <richardschwerdtfeger> present + Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:07:28 <clown> action-1533?
19:07:28 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN
19:07:28 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
19:07:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> present+ Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:08:31 <clown> scribenick:
19:08:37 <clown> scribenick: clown
19:09:04 <clown> JD: I postponed and updated the action to the beginning of June.
19:09:27 <clown> JD:  I came up with a quick-and-dirty pyatspi script, it does the job.
19:09:37 <clown> JD:  In Selenium.
19:09:47 <clown> JD:  I can attempt to port it to JavaScript.
19:11:03 <clown> JD:  I put a note about this in the action.
19:11:17 <clown> JD:  It does a tree dive to get the element ID.
19:11:24 <clown> JD:  I suspect all the platforms expose that.
19:11:45 <clown> JD:  The tree dive is on the a11 tree.
19:11:55 <clown> s/a11 tree/a11y tree/
19:12:37 <clown> RS:  Can we see the code?
19:12:47 <clown> JS:  How about a pastebin?
19:16:02 <clown> <discussion of the code>
19:16:10 <clown> RS:  Does it do the API mapping test?
19:16:28 <clown> JD:  Look at the assertion at line 93, 94, 95.
19:17:54 <clown> JS:  It is using the pyatspi library to get info straight out of AT-SPI
19:18:16 <clown> JD:  Each language would have to implement things like getName(), getDescription(), and so on.
19:18:54 <clown> JD:  For example, one could do something similar for IA2.
19:19:21 <clown> CS:  That's what my dev was doing.  It wasn't that hard.
19:19:39 <clown> RS:  It would be good if the ERT group to do this.
19:20:03 <clown> JD:  I put this in WebDriver as a proof of concept.
19:20:18 <clown> action-1533?
19:20:18 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-06-02 -- OPEN
19:20:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
19:21:10 <clown> CS:  My goal was to somehow get these concepts into webdriver.
19:21:50 <clown> RS:  I'm not sure there are enough resources in the webdriver group.
19:22:27 <clown> RS:  Although, I don't really care how it gets done.  Let whomever can do it, go ahead.
19:22:46 <clown> CS:  I need to talk to someone about how to contribute.
19:22:59 <clown> CS:  But, this kind of a11y testing is just testing.
19:23:31 <clown> RS:  Eventually, I would like a cross platform API for all of this.
19:24:02 <clown> JD:  I just wanted to mention that we don't need a test harness as W3C already has that.
19:24:08 <clown> JD:  We just need some glue code.
19:24:14 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:24:22 <joanie> RS: We have to write the test cases.
19:24:51 <joanie> RS: Jon has coding skills and students who could work on this.
19:25:12 <joanie> RS: But if ERT could work on automating our tests, let them go do it.
19:25:22 <joanie> RS: And when they have issues, they could report them to us.
19:25:46 <joanie> RS: I would rather us not have to stop, create all the tests, we don't want to do manual testing, etc.
19:26:00 <joanie> RS: Why not leverage these folks and then contribute the result to WebDriver.
19:26:09 <joanie> CS: Maybe. But the code is pretty small.
19:26:19 <joanie> CS: The harness code is easy.
19:26:32 <joanie> CS: Translating the test cases into the syntax is easy, but time consuming.
19:26:39 <joanie> CS: Do we need ERT for that?
19:26:58 <joanie> CS: The other piece is commands for accessibility APIs. That's a bit more work.
19:27:19 <joanie> CS: What Joanie just did and what my dev did, and some students writing test cases, is what I think we should do.
19:27:36 <joanie> RS: We potentially could do that, but some group needs to do the work.
19:27:45 <joanie> CS: Jon's students did IE testing.
19:27:54 <joanie> CS: And I want to keep the number of groups small.
19:28:24 <joanie> RS: I wrote a draft charter for this group. Their job would be to create the automated testing and unified accessibility API testing.
19:28:54 <joanie> CS: I don't know if we need a group to do this.
19:29:33 <joanie> RS: I've been told WebDriver isn't far off the ground.
19:29:47 <joanie> CS: Do we expect to start these tests next week?
19:29:55 <joanie> RS: No. Probably August should be fine.
19:30:02 <joanie> CS: I was looking at doing this late in the summer.
19:30:21 <joanie> CS: Someone needs to port the existing ARIA tests and port them. Also create new tests for 1.1.
19:30:33 <joanie> CS: It's a lot of typing, but not that hard.
19:30:57 <joanie> CS: The 1.0 ARIA files already existed. So it's just the additional features and any changes in 1.1.
19:31:09 <joanie> CS: The bulk of the work is porting.
19:32:01 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:34:35 <clown> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/25
19:34:42 <joanie> CS: It sounds like a have a practical way forward. I'll look at the Microsoft work going into WebDriver.
19:34:54 <joanie> CS: Joanie can look at IA2 and ATSPI2
19:35:09 <joanie> JS: The URL above is the ARIA 1.1 test plan.
19:35:21 <joanie> JS: So is this an issue?
19:35:45 <clown> issue:  Automated testing using WebDriver for ARIA 1.1
19:35:45 <trackbot> Created ISSUE-710 - Automated testing using webdriver for aria 1.1.  Please complete additional details at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710/edit>.
19:36:34 <janina> janina has joined #aapi
19:36:59 <clown> issue-710?
19:37:00 <trackbot> issue-710 -- Automated testing using WebDr8ver for ARIA 1.1 -- open
19:37:00 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710
19:37:18 <clown> issue-710?
19:37:18 <trackbot> issue-710 -- Automated testing using WebDriver for ARIA 1.1 -- open
19:37:18 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/710
19:38:33 <clown> action:  Joanie hooked up ATK/AT-SPI to webDriver
19:38:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1637 - Hooked up atk/at-spi to webdriver [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-05-26].
19:38:49 <clown> action-1637?
19:38:49 <trackbot> action-1637 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Hooked up atk/at-spi to webdriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:38:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1637
19:39:45 <clown> action:  Cynthia to take the concept of a11y testiing in WebDriver to the WebDriver group.
19:39:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1638 - Take the concept of a11y testiing in webdriver to the webdriver group. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-05-26].
19:39:49 <clown> action-1638?
19:39:49 <trackbot> action-1638 -- Cynthia Shelly to Take the concept of a11y testiing in webdriver to the webdriver group. -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:39:49 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1638
19:41:11 <clown> action:  Cynthia to implement WebDriver a11y testing for UIA
19:41:11 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1639 - Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-05-26].
19:41:19 <clown> action-1639?
19:41:19 <trackbot> action-1639 -- Cynthia Shelly to Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:41:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1639
19:43:01 <clown> trackbot, associate action-1639 with issue-710
19:43:01 <trackbot> action-1639 (Implement webdriver a11y testing for uia) associated with issue-710.
19:49:33 <clown> action:  Rich to send a note to James Craig about test automation with WebDriver
19:49:34 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1640 - Send a note to james craig about test automation with webdriver [on Richard Schwerdtfeger - due 2015-05-26].
19:49:39 <clown> action-1640?
19:49:39 <trackbot> action-1640 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Send a note to james craig about test automation with webdriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:49:39 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1640
19:50:19 <clown> action-1640?
19:50:19 <trackbot> action-1640 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Send a note to James Craig about test automation with WebDriver -- due 2015-05-26 -- OPEN
19:50:19 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1640
19:54:11 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 9
19:54:11 <Zakim> agendum 9. "ACTION-1621: (Joseph) Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec." taken up [from clown]
19:54:22 <clown> action-1621?
19:54:22 <trackbot> action-1621 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec. -- due 2015-05-19 -- OPEN
19:54:22 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1621
19:54:44 <joanie> CS: The new browser Edge is for UIA; not UIA Express.
19:55:17 <joanie> CS: IE 11 will continue to ship for the foreseeable future as a backwards-compatibility browser and will still be UIA Express.
19:55:42 <joanie> RS: So ARIA 1.1 might not be available in IE 11.
19:56:00 <joanie> CS: IE 11 will remain the way it is now.
19:56:51 <joanie> RS: Content injection using CSS, typically the only way you can get at that is via an API mapping.
19:57:07 <joanie> RS: So ATs will be accessing content via the DOM.
19:57:37 <joanie> RS: So we have a non-interoperable situation, some is only available via APIs and other only available via the DOM.
19:57:47 <joanie> CS: Only on that platform, but yes.
19:58:00 <joanie> RS: And we don't know when everyone will migrate to Edge.
19:58:17 <joanie> CS: If they upgrade to Windows 10, they'll have both.
19:58:34 <joanie> s/both/both IE and Edge/
19:58:47 <clown> proposed resolution -  Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1.
19:59:32 <joanie> CS: I think that makes sense, but there may be places where what's in the document doesn't align with what has been implemented in IE.
19:59:41 <joanie> CS: But the column will stay there.
19:59:58 <clown> resolution:  Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:00:14 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:00:51 <clown> RESOLUTION:  Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:00:55 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:00:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:02:25 <joanie> s/RESOLUTION:/RESOLVED:/
20:02:30 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:02:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:03:25 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:03:25 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:03:45 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:03:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:04:45 <joanie> RESOLVED: Leave the UIA Express mappings in the Core-AAM as they are for ARIA 1.1, with potential bug fixes.
20:04:48 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:04:48 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/19-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:06:01 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:06:35 <clown> trackbot, close action-1621
20:06:35 <trackbot> Closed action-1621.
20:07:04 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop