16:16:41 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:16:41 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-ua-irc
16:16:43 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:16:43 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:16:45 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:16:45 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 44 minutes
16:16:46 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:16:46 <trackbot> Date: 14 May 2015
16:16:52 <allanj> chair: jim Allan
16:17:08 <allanj> scribe: allanj
16:17:33 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
16:17:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:01:26 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
17:01:33 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:03:15 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:03:30 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:04:05 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:08:49 <Kim> Kim has joined #ua
17:13:28 <jeanne> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5f383892ba07c62c662f101dfec8a13d
17:13:48 <jeanne> +1-617-324-0000 US Toll Number
17:14:00 <jeanne> 644 111 325
17:16:29 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
17:16:30 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
17:16:31 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
17:16:31 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeanne, Kim_Patch, Greg_Lowney
17:20:31 <allanj> present+
17:20:36 <Kim> present+kim
17:21:21 <Greg> present+ Greg_Lowney
17:23:15 <jeanne> present+ jeanne
17:23:30 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
17:23:30 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-ua-minutes.html jeanne
17:24:09 <allanj> present+JimAllan
17:25:16 <allanj> https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5f383892ba07c62c662f101dfec8a13d
17:25:41 <allanj> agenda+ Cynthia comments
17:25:43 <allanj> agenda+ implementations - not testing, just the settings/tools
17:37:13 <jeanne> https://photonarrations.wordpress.com/2015/04/21/short-image-descriptions-alt_text_bot-on-twitter/
17:41:23 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
17:41:23 <Zakim> agendum 1. "Cynthia comments" taken up [from allanj]
17:42:11 <allanj> topic: Comment 1 - ​Access to the DOM should not be required.
17:47:28 <allanj> ja: concerns about limiting access to DOM. In the past IBM was adamant about AT needing access to the DOM
17:48:22 <allanj> action: jimallan to write IBM and Freedom Scientific for more info - report back
17:48:22 <trackbot> Error finding 'jimallan'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
17:48:32 <allanj> action: allanj to write IBM and Freedom Scientific for more info - report back
17:48:32 <trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
17:56:45 <jeanne> No one will know that the ARIA is breaking the page, until somone explicitly uses it with accessibility.
17:58:08 <allanj> discussion of just in time loading of ARIA for accessibility. With out a call to the accessibility API the ARIA is not loaded etc.
18:00:43 <allanj> gl: if AT not allowed access to the DOM, then extensions can't get to it either
18:04:21 <allanj> Topic: Comment ​2.User Style Sheets should not be required to be exposed to the USER.
18:05:06 <allanj> ja: what is the alternative for users? Will there be an interface provided by the user agent to make the appropriate settings changes
18:05:47 <allanj> gl: they can include specific extensions that will allow access to the CSS and allow the user to modify the CSS to meet their needs
18:06:45 <allanj> gl: there needs to be some interface (extension or UA feature) to allow users to modify the presentation of content
18:08:36 <Greg> There is little functional difference between requiring that browsers expose this as an API (available to extensions) and exposing it directly to end users via built-in UI. In either case, for the browser to be sufficiently accessible, there must be UI that exposes the user style sheet functionality tot he user.
18:09:31 <Greg> If Microsoft is willing to accept requiring user style sheets at the developer level, they just have to make sure that at least one browser extension makes use of that and provides some UI for it.
18:09:39 <allanj> This is a Use Case. User needs to modify the presentation of the content. User Stylesheets is one mechanism. UA interface or extension to allow the manipulation of CSS to meet users needs.
18:10:32 <allanj> question? if CSS explicitly talks about user CSS and the !important to override author, why are browsers stripping it out.
18:11:06 <allanj> there is a need. and only poor mechanisms for users to change the presentation of content
18:14:22 <allanj> gl: stylish use User CSS? if they don't use them perhaps rewrite to allow a Stylish type functionality.
18:16:43 <allanj> gl: the current tool or functions in browsers are poor
18:16:58 <Greg> That is, possibly rewrite to focus on the end-user functionality rather than the specific mechanism.
18:18:02 <Greg> As in, the user can apply formatting (e.g. styles) to all web content, overriding author-provided formatting.
18:18:40 <allanj> ja: chrome has no user stylesheets, must use Stylish to override Author CSS
18:19:16 <allanj> gl: a good case for allowing user to turn off CSS, and override Author CSS
18:20:16 <allanj> js: focus should be making it easier to use, people NEED the functionality. User CSS is poor.
18:20:27 <allanj> ja: stylish is geeky
18:20:54 <allanj> gl: thats ok to need technical person to do this
18:21:23 <allanj> kp: need to be able to transfer CSS or settings between browsers etc.
18:23:00 <allanj> kp: it would be nice for users to be able to do this in an easy manner
18:24:58 <allanj> ja: change doc to a NOTE, or make the NOTE include Use Cases
18:25:46 <allanj> js: Use Case should be a separate NOTE.
18:25:59 <allanj> js: are we changing 1.7
18:27:20 <allanj> gl: change wording to meet functionality not specifically calling out user style sheets
18:27:40 <allanj> functionality needed:
18:28:16 <allanj> turn off CSS
18:28:26 <allanj> modifications are transportable
18:28:53 <allanj> some mechanism (user CSS is one mechanism)
18:33:09 <allanj> action: allanj with greg to rewrite 1.7 to be mechanism and not specifically user style sheets
18:33:09 <trackbot> Error finding 'allanj'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/tracker/users>.
18:33:23 <allanj> action: jallan with greg to rewrite 1.7 to be mechanism and not specifically user style sheets
18:33:24 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1085 - With greg to rewrite 1.7 to be mechanism and not specifically user style sheets [on Jim Allan - due 2015-05-21].
18:34:13 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:34:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-ua-minutes.html allanj
18:34:23 <allanj> zakim, please part
18:34:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #ua
18:35:47 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
18:35:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-ua-minutes.html allanj