14:18:38 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:18:38 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-mobile-a11y-irc 14:18:40 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:18:40 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:18:42 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:18:42 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 42 minutes 14:18:43 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:18:43 Date: 14 May 2015 14:19:40 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 14:19:57 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015May/0007.html 14:34:04 agenda+ Perceivable Best Practices - nonlinear and screen layout 14:34:05 agenda+ Understandable/Robust best practices 14:34:07 agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, April 21 14:48:17 regrets+ Alan_Smith, Detlev_Fischer 14:54:10 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 14:54:31 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 14:57:21 WebEx link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m523c9f623a4979f4952a9bb93531b909 14:58:14 password for webex: matf 15:01:32 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:35 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:54 WebEx link: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m523c9f623a4979f4952a9bb93531b909 15:04:22 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started 15:04:29 + +1.408.425.aaaa 15:05:00 - +1.408.425.aaaa 15:05:01 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended 15:05:01 Attendees were +1.408.425.aaaa 15:05:25 Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y 15:05:25 Shebanek has joined #mobile-a11y 15:06:02 I am only in on irc, password for webex did not work and I cannot call from Italy 15:06:18 it needs to be all lower case 15:06:45 Kim's email had password as 6283 15:12:10 present+ jeanne 15:12:12 present+ Kathy 15:12:24 present+ 15:12:24 present+ shebanek 15:12:28 present+ jon_avila 15:12:35 zakim, list attendees 15:12:35 sorry, jon_avila, I don't know what conference this is 15:12:41 present+Kim 15:12:42 ok, I'll try. Thanks 15:12:48 present+ marcjohlic 15:12:50 present + 15:12:58 zakim, this is Mobile 15:12:59 sorry, jeanne, I do not see a conference named 'Mobile' in progress or scheduled at this time 15:13:08 zakim, this is MATF 15:13:08 jeanne, I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be MATF". 15:13:21 zakim, list attendees 15:13:21 sorry, jon_avila, I don't know what conference this is 15:13:38 zakim, this will be MATF 15:13:38 ok, jon_avila; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start 13 minutes ago 15:13:40 rrsagent, make minutes 15:13:40 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne 15:13:55 Working on ipad mini and windows 8 tablet from italy 15:13:56 zakim, list attendees 15:13:56 sorry, jon_avila, I don't know what conference this is 15:13:58 rrsagent, make logs public 15:14:04 zakim, this will be MATF 15:14:04 ok, jon_avila; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start 14 minutes ago 15:14:20 present+Alan 15:14:52 present- aaaa 15:15:34 present- +1.408.425.aaaa 15:15:35 I wish there was a way to stop Cisco from flashing 15:15:38 rrsagent, make minutes 15:15:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne 15:16:31 present+ Kenny 15:16:52 zakim, list attendees 15:16:52 sorry, jon_avila, I don't know what conference this is 15:17:01 zakim, this is MATF 15:17:01 jon_avila, I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be MATF". 15:17:18 zakim, this will be MATF 15:17:18 ok, jon_avila; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start 17 minutes ago 15:19:29 zakim, list 15:19:29 I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM, WAI_WCAG()10:00AM, Team_JEFF(CHAMPION)11:00AM active 15:19:32 also scheduled at this time are SW_HCLS()11:00AM, XML_QueryWG(XSLT)11:00AM, I18N_WG()10:00AM, XML_XSLWG()11:30AM, SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM, UW_DAP()10:00AM, WAI_MATF()11:00AM 15:23:33 http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Perceivable_Techniques 15:24:04 zakim, take up item 1 15:24:04 agendum 1. "Perceivable Best Practices - nonlinear and screen layout" taken up [from Kim] 15:25:25 Kathy: best practices, advisory or sufficient – what issue should we have listed pertaining to nonlinear screen layout 15:25:36 Kathy: is there anything more we need or is this more of a best practice 15:25:59 Marc: would focus order or meaningful sequence come into play 15:26:30 Kathy: this is where you have a whole page coming in from the side – it could have a focus order 15:27:08 Marc: if you swipe from the side and it covers only a quarter of the screen like a menu wouldn't change focus 15:27:42 Jeanne: along the lines of ignoring the Dom we should have an extensive conversation about this everywhere in the accessibility field. 15:28:40 Jeanne: ignore Dom and use accessibility APIs instead but accessibility APIs don't always provide all information. 15:29:10 Jeanne: if browsers ignore Dom there are huge implications 15:30:01 Jeanne: ignoring the Dom can increase speed of browser 15:31:54 Jeanne: there's a proposal to PF called WAPA that talks about this. Not going to download ARIA information unless they get the query from an API I don't know how much aria is used outside assistive technology, but if it does… I don't know how much this will affect things, but we need to think about these issues 15:32:57 Jon: there are a lot of other things that can rely on those things that aren't necessarily accessibility – headings. I'm also concerned about just in time loading of accessibility features. 15:33:40 Jeanne: maybe that's something we can say here pretty simply. Anything working outside the DOM has to be properly communicated to the accessibility API. I don't want to write that technique but I know people who we can go to who do 15:34:33 Jeanne: highly recommend talking to colleagues who are in PF with these issues. If they have looked at this issue and have said it's not a problem we need to know the reasoning 15:35:39 Anything working outside the DOM must communicate it to the accessibilityAPI 15:36:25 Jon: looking things up – if you use speech recognition and you want to use your voice to programmatically affect an element it's not a two-way street 15:36:57 Jon: one of the things that is proposed is the assistive technology should be able to communicate back to platforms which includes browsers to get a set of the actions that are available to control and to be able to perform those actions that are available from the assistive technology 15:38:22 Jon: the concept is good because it provides assistive technology another way to get access to the information. What concerns me is if we solely rely on that and not the Dom you going to block a bunch of technology that can't access the API. It really depends on if there's fall back support provided in the Dom. I think it's good but there could be consequences that are negative 15:38:27 https://github.com/cyns/wapa 15:39:48 Kathy: we will leave that for now we can come back and review that again 15:40:12 Kathy: the other thing that we had in our list from before and this came from the BBC guidelines 15:40:41 DId we already discuss the need for signalling to the user that there is information that can be pulled from the side. 15:40:44 Kathy: M19 15:41:49 Jeanne: back to nonlinear – we need to signal users that there is something available 15:42:27 Kathy: I think it's important to have the correct affordances 15:42:51 Jeanne: also focus 15:44:05 Marc: focus order 15:44:35 Alan: question about nonlinear – is that a side menu coming into the screen 15:45:18 Jeanne: the use case I was thinking of is swiping into an article, how do you know 15:45:43 so you don't lose your location on the main page 15:46:00 Jeanne: I think we have a lot in nonlinear 15:47:17 Alan: do we have a list - focus, reading order, should something come in and take focus over the reading order that's hidden 15:49:11 Mike: on the nonlinear case it seems like at least two cases – when something slides in from half the screen that the user doesn't initiate an ad or something. The other thing is when something happens and when the user intends to go to that spot 15:49:37 Kathy: what's an example of where we would do that programmatically. I think that would fail WCAG right from the start – changing action not from the user focus but automatically 15:50:21 Mike: example, notification on the screen. Or I tap on a hamburger and something slides over half the screen but I intended to do that. Sometimes something happens, sometimes user causes it to happen in both cases it can be outside the DOM 15:50:39 Jeanne: useful to have these as use cases – browsers really want clear use cases for accessibility problems 15:51:38 Mike:here's another example I think we do this in Yahoo mail so I wont suggest whether it's good or bad. If you take an action and a message pops up about that action the message will pop up and become part of the swipe order on that screen – it's something the user initiated but it's not necessarily happening instantly it's happening sometime later 15:51:55 Mike: another example is pop up banner ads that you don't want to take focus to, but that's just the way the website works 15:52:33 Jon: that last case would be a failure of 2.2.2. The first example sounds like a non-modal pop-up. I think they are working on that for aria 1.1 15:54:51 Kim: if a speech user doesn't realize the focus is going to change, they can get in trouble because they're issuing a command that goes to the wrong place. You can issue a stacked command and if the focus changes in the middle of command execution half the command can execute at a different focus point 15:55:14 Kathy: the last one in this list is metadata 15:55:57 Kathy: is this a technique that we should also include. Is this something that is specific to mobile – I don't think it is but would like to get your thoughts 15:56:52 Jon: could this be advisory? There are some meta-techniquesu under 1.1, says future technique, others audio only future technique 15:57:11 Kathy: we could add these in his advisory technique – is this something people think we should tackle? This is really relevant to what the BBC is doing. 15:57:32 Kathy: it does have some benefit for mobile because you could get an alternative version. Can you actually switch the sun mobile – the alternate version of webpages? 15:57:57 Marc: I'm over you can switch to the desktop version 15:58:19 Jon: on the mobile browser generally it's not very apparent 15:58:46 Kathy: maybe if it's not something that's readily implemented within the browsers lower priority item because it would be advisory right now 15:59:08 Jeanne: we should look at this in UAAG 15:59:36 action: jeanne to research the use of metadata in UAAG as related to the M19 technique 15:59:37 Created ACTION-30 - Research the use of metadata in uaag as related to the m19 technique [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2015-05-21]. 16:01:07 Kathy: next week will get started on looking at feedback and questions from WCAG,, then take a look at understandable, then take a look at this as a whole to see if there are any other techniques that we want to do. We will also start talking about assignments. Some of them we already have in draft format that we can start passing over to the WCAG working group. 16:01:53 rrsagent, make minutes 16:01:53 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/14-mobile-a11y-minutes.html jeanne