14:53:12 RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y 14:53:12 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-mobile-a11y-irc 14:53:14 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:53:14 Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y 14:53:16 Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF 14:53:16 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:17 Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference 14:53:17 Date: 07 May 2015 14:53:29 chair: Kathleen_Wahlbin 14:55:26 agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015May/0001.html 14:55:38 agenda+ Perceivable Best Practices 14:55:39 agenda+ WebEx Information 14:55:41 agenda+ Next steps – next meeting Thursday, May 14 14:58:17 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started 14:58:21 Kathy has joined #mobile-a11y 14:58:24 +Kathy_Wahlbin 14:59:06 +Kim_Patch 14:59:31 invite rrsagent 14:59:41 rrsagent, make log world 14:59:48 meeting: Mobile A11Y TF 14:59:56 chair: Kathy 15:00:05 regrets + Henny 15:01:27 jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y 15:01:37 +Jeanne 15:01:53 marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y 15:02:51 +jon_avila 15:03:21 jon_avila has joined #mobile-a11y 15:03:43 +Kenny 15:03:54 +Marc_Johlic 15:05:24 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Perceivable_Techniques 15:06:00 Kathy: Perceivable techniques and WebEx today 15:07:20 Kathy: last week we talked about smaller screen size, this week zoom/modification and linear layout 15:07:44 Kathy: we've incorporated the techniques that we had in the techniques list from a while back as well as things from the note as well as other things that have come up in conversation 15:08:15 Kathy: go through each one of those, should they be best practice or technique, then identify anything else within zoom or magnification that's important to add 15:08:35 zakim, take up item 1 15:08:35 agendum 1. "Perceivable Best Practices" taken up [from Kim] 15:09:10 Kathy: what are your thoughts on ensuring that the menu can be zoomed to 200% – is that a technique we should have in here, is it more of a situational best practice? 15:09:29 Marc: is 200% measurable or testable on mobile? 15:10:21 Kathy: in a responsive design you can lock the viewport size into maximum scale of 2.0 with 200% so you can look at the viewport settings, which is the next one down. So within the viewport we got a way of testing because it's the maximum you can get it to. I don't know if we have a way of measuring on an app though other than ball parking 15:10:56 Jon: physically measure, if you look at accessibility zoom or pinch zoom – accessibility zoom has a slider that you can actually do 200% 15:11:48 Kathy: there's three different levels – the OS magnification that you can set, we've also got browser functions, and then we've got pinch Zoom all based on the viewport settings 15:12:44 Jon: font page hard to tell us something is 18.5 or 14 so you can match 15:13:07 Kathy: would screen size come into play or pixel size or is 200% same across devices 15:13:52 Kathy: WCAG guideline is 200% 15:14:51 Kathy: Greg comments of things we should be thinking about especially in terms of large text. I'm going through those now. Maybe he has some ideas. There was discussion back and forth – breakpoints, dots per inch 15:15:22 Kathy: sizes overall going to be a challenge with everything we are doing on mobile because there's not a good way to benchmark it 15:15:55 Kathy: getting back to Jon's comment about Jim Thatcher's page, that was easy to set up. Drawing the lines to see what's 200%, that might be a good way 15:17:37 Marc: the menu one – that wouldn't work 15:17:39 Jon: event.scale property on pinch function, does DOM keep track, but does app follow that we don't know for sure 15:17:54 Jon: if you go into a larger text there's a slider, and well that doesn't show magnification level it does show you different examples of text 15:18:40 Jon: so you could compare them but that's it 15:18:41 Jon: in Firefox there are plug-ins 15:18:51 Jon: I didn't find a lot for mobile browsers, but maybe that's changing 15:19:11 Kathy: is it something we can write or have one of the groups write and then reference in a guideline if we can come up with something 15:19:29 Jon: if you look at the actual sufficient technique it has that same challenge 15:20:00 Kathy: any insight on the WCAG discussions that went around that? 15:20:27 Kathy: as far as writing a best practice or technique is it important to have one that calls out a menu specifically 15:21:18 Jeanne: more important to be able to go higher than 200% – 200% on the phone as much at all. For some webpages especially ones that are not responsive design you have to go 1000% 15:22:07 Jon: we could put a statement in their we're not saying that by going to 200% your making content accessible, using because that's WCAG, but we are not saying that means that it's going to be accessible to people with low vision. Same with contrast 15:22:34 Jon: we don't want to imply that this is somehow a number that makes it accessible. It's more of a threshold that we have to realistically say once you get to too big you have a very small number of characters or words that appear on the screen so for that reason we don't test above that 15:23:24 Kathy: maybe we change that – note explicitly stating what you and Jeanne just said. I think it's much more beyond the menu. I see problems where only part of the screen magnifies 15:24:03 Kathy: what everybody be okay with just stating that we need to have zoom to 200% and a note saying magnification would likely be beneficial to those with low vision 15:25:02 Jon: when it talks about menus it says when you increase the font size menus may look odd to users. I think the concern is that sometimes- on a normal page you might scroll but menus might be fixed size container, may be pushed off screen or disappear 15:25:14 Kathy: we need to add notes into our page reflecting that 15:26:54 Kathy: keep it as is but address the navigation that is specific to mobile 15:27:41 Kathy: maybe we should say to at least 200% instead of 200% 15:27:54 Menus in particular may present unique challenges when content is magnified to 200%. This may occur because menus often appear vertically and accessing menu items that scroll out of the viewable area may be truncated and/or may present challenges such as menus may disappear when the user scrolls the viewable area. 15:29:37 Kathy: what about supporting the characteristic properties the platform, zoom, larger font, captions, also darkened colors. A lot coming that work on apps but not necessarily on the webside. Thoughts? 15:29:56 Marc: no issues with this one – for including 15:30:09 Kathy: to what extent should we talk about the characteristic properties. 15:30:32 Marc: has to be open-ended because of the differences among devices 15:31:03 Jon: as a developer you're creating for android, but different hardware 15:31:47 Kathy: on android there's a large variety of settings. IOS it's more version numbers 15:32:42 Jeanne: approach it to say write your code so that if the manufacturer exposes it that is taken first, then have your own setting as a backup if you can't get it from the manufacturer, the platform. And then finally if there's a known bug in the platform don't code around it so you don't break it for other situations– well maybe that one should be separate because that's a separate issue 15:33:37 Kathy: thinking about the actual implementation if we look at mobile web we are thinking about with the browser is doing too. UAAG – something about honoring OS settings? 15:33:48 Jeanne: yes – by section 15:33:54 Jeanne: If the platform exposes the settings, use them. Otherwise, provide an appropriate default setting. 15:34:34 Kathy: what are specific challenges we are seeing around this in terms of text size, larger font, zoom things. What are things we are finding on the mobile website that would be impacted by setting characteristic properties or something that would prevent this from working 15:35:59 Jon: on Safari, font face, but other information I don't know if developer has control over, but as long as you meet contrast requirements. Provide an option for improved contrast beyond what may be available. That gets down to user preference. Is there a current WCAG technique for user preference 15:36:05 Kathy: there's also user preference within the browsers 15:37:01 Jeanne: I would think this is more applicable to apps than to websites. Websites are at the mercy of does the browser pick up the OS settings – I suppose some APIs that could do it but mostly. But for apps is a different story 15:37:19 Kathy: except if you use the Apple system font you get the larger font size in Safari because then dynamic text takes effect 15:37:49 Jon: in CSS 15:38:50 Jon: I would be fine just limiting it to software. As far as captions I don't know if a webpage would be able to get to a user's caption preferences in OS? Automatically if you use a default video player? If you use the default video player and it does bring over the caption preferences for a webpage we have a strong case to say as a developer you need to provide more options 15:39:22 Jon: I'll test that and get back to the group 15:39:44 Kathy: Kevin Earl may have some more information that we can get directly where he has done testing 15:40:12 Kathy: summing up – more applicable to apps and media players 15:40:58 Topic: Provide a way for users to change the font size 15:41:25 Jon: Silverlight text elements – you something similar 15:42:17 Topic: ensure snap scrolling does not prevent access to content resize of text 15:42:58 Kathy: very specific case – anything to add or others that are similar? 15:44:01 Jon: I noticed this – once I zoomed in when I moved around a thought I was scrolling the page so is difficult to access the truncated content 15:44:40 Jon: it's my understanding that the idea in general would be problematic 15:45:10 Topic: ensure fixed position content does not prevent access to content when text is resized 15:45:29 Kathy: straightforward – any comment? Is there anything that's not in this list? 15:45:36 Topic: contrast 15:47:31 Kathy: is there anything else we need to consider as far as contrast on mobile? Could make a note that it would be beneficial for some users to be higher than 4.51, but shouldn't require higher 15:49:38 Kathy: WCAG requirement is 1.2 times default, so were not doing anything different here. 15:49:39 Jon: does not say in actual standards, it's in the guidance, and that's not normative 15:52:05 Jon: G114, G145 all in understanding document 15:52:22 Kathy: I do think it would be helpful if we had some tools to reference but I don't know many tools that are out there 15:52:41 Kathy: on the tool they were developing is this something that they would consider scanning for? 15:52:56 Jeanne: something they were looking at don't know how much detail they were going into 15:53:38 Jon: iOS HTML 5, videos always seem to open up to the platform player 15:54:21 Marc: on this contrast one just having that default text size – is there a stated default text size on the IOS 15:54:37 Jon: it's based on the default size for the page 15:55:50 Zakim, take up item 2 15:55:50 agendum 2. "WebEx Information" taken up [from Kim] 15:59:22 Jeanne: the email has the link for the call. You can have it call you or you can connect to the meeting with your computer or you can dial in directly. I'll put the phone number in the meeting agenda. If you are calling in you call in and put in your code 15:59:44 Jeanne: when I was running test last week if the host wasn't there you couldn't get in 16:02:08 Jeanne: background – for 20 years MIT has hosted the zakim bridge. They've switched over. They've offered us the use of their WebEx system. We will lose some features – see who's on call, raise your hand from your phone, but if you are you are using IRC you can use the queue there. WebEx has some good tricks – screen sharing, although not accessibly. It allows video. We are not... 16:02:09 ...running the... 16:02:11 ...latest version. MIT has promised they will upgrade to a new version that is supposed to be more accessible but have not done it yet. 16:03:26 Jeanne: what it does well video, slides, clarity is good, voice over IP. You can have it call you doesn't matter where in the world, no restriction on being called by the system. 16:03:43 https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m53b1b60a6036509754cc27dae8b39a88 16:03:58 646 316 248 16:04:07 +1-617-324-0000 US Toll Number 16:05:53 Jeanne: set it up to start next week. Key thing is when you login and it downloads the little app – it does it every time. Large audio button, click, options use computer, call me 16:07:13 Kathy: we will try to use this next week, we expect there will be problems getting in, but we will work with everybody on trying to get this set up 16:09:10 Jeanne: we Zakim as a backup if you can't get in on WebEx - still using chat. Type present+ 16:09:12 Kathy: we will send out instructions to get this to work next week 16:10:23 Jeanne: we have until the end of June to work out the kinks. 16:10:33 -Jeanne 16:10:37 -jon_avila 16:10:38 -Kim_Patch 16:10:38 -Kathy_Wahlbin 16:10:39 -Marc_Johlic 16:10:39 -Kenny 16:10:41 WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended 16:10:41 Attendees were Kathy_Wahlbin, Kim_Patch, Jeanne, jon_avila, Kenny, Marc_Johlic 16:12:13 rrsagent, make minutes 16:12:13 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/07-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kim 16:18:28 rrsagent, bye 16:18:28 I see no action items