07:27:25 RRSAgent has joined #social 07:27:25 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/05-social-irc 07:27:27 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:27:27 Zakim has joined #social 07:27:29 Zakim, this will be SOCL 07:27:29 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 07:27:30 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 07:27:30 Date: 05 May 2015 07:28:08 zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes? 07:28:10 sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again 07:29:54 tantek has joined #social 07:30:55 zakim, move 26631 here 07:30:55 I don't understand 'move 26631 here', sandro 07:31:05 zakim, move conference 26631 here 07:31:05 I don't understand 'move conference 26631 here', sandro 07:31:18 zakim, help 07:31:18 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 07:31:20 Some of the commands I know are: 07:31:20 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 07:31:20 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 07:31:21 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 07:31:21 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 07:31:21 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 07:31:21 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 07:31:21 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 07:31:21 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 07:31:22 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 07:31:22 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 07:31:22 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 07:31:23 list conferences - reports the active conferences 07:31:24 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 07:31:24 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 07:31:24 I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $ 07:31:30 parklize has joined #social 07:31:38 zakim, move conf1 to here 07:31:38 sandro, I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1". 07:31:45 zakim, this will be conf1 07:31:46 ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago 07:32:14 zakim, this will be Team_(socwg) 07:32:14 ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago 07:32:29 morning, ish 07:32:36 trackbot, start meeting 07:32:38 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:32:40 Zakim, this will be SOCL 07:32:40 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 07:32:41 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 07:32:41 Date: 05 May 2015 07:32:54 the "ish" is that it's 2:30am here, I'm barely awake 07:32:54 zakim, this will be Team_(socwg) 07:32:54 ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago 07:32:58 claudio has joined #social 07:33:59 zakim, who's on the phone? 07:33:59 Team_(socwg)07:29Z has not yet started, Arnaud 07:34:01 On IRC I see claudio, parklize, tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, akuckartz, KevinMarks, shepazu, cwebber2, kaepora, deiu, elf-pavlik, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro, 07:34:01 ... aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer 07:34:03 cwebber2, are you calling into Zakim? The conference code is 26631 today 07:34:16 sandro has changed the topic to: CODE IS 26631 TODAY Social WG: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg - Next meeting (Face 2 Face): https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04 - logs: http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/today 07:34:49 bblfish has joined #social 07:35:09 cwebber, are you calling in? 07:35:14 hi 07:36:05 good morning #social web WG! again, lurking today, in another meeting all day. 07:36:21 When the INRIA conference system answers the phone (in French) can you enter the conference code 23695487# ? 07:36:32 Zakim, call INRIA-bridge 07:36:32 ok, sandro; the call is being made 07:36:33 Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started 07:36:34 +INRIA 07:36:51 zakim, drop inria 07:36:51 INRIA is being disconnected 07:36:53 Team_(socwg)07:29Z has ended 07:36:53 Attendees were INRIA 07:36:54 Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started 07:37:00 Zakim, call INRIA-bridge 07:37:00 ok, sandro; the call is being made 07:37:02 +[IPcaller] 07:37:02 +INRIA 07:37:25 -[IPcaller] 07:37:35 bridges are connected 07:38:16 scribenick: aaronpk 07:38:19 Arnaud: I am 07:38:26 give me a minute 07:38:40 Arnaud: plan for today is to go through two more APIs, activitypump and SoLiD 07:39:01 rhiaro_ has joined #social 07:40:26 hey Arnaud it says 07:40:32 "the conference is restricted at this time" 07:40:39 Tsyesika: user posts a note 07:41:07 posting a note to the outbox, you submit a Post activity with an object of a Note, sent to "followers" 07:41:25 melvser1 has joined #social 07:41:36 the server returns the entire activity with the note back, and it's added the author and publish date, and the ID of the activity and the object 07:41:47 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/user-posts-a-note.md 07:42:10 Sandro: do you need the @type collection on the "to" object? Yes 07:42:37 ok, I can't dial in since the conference is restricted, so I'll just follow via text 07:43:11 cwebber2, what conference code did you use? 07:43:17 sandro: SOCL 07:43:23 Tsyesika: the API requires you to specify the type, we could see about removing the requirement 07:43:25 ah, sorry, but it's 26631 today 07:43:47 +??P0 07:43:49 ...to "to" is specifying the audience, not adding something to the collection, different from it being the target 07:44:14 Zakim, ??P0 is me 07:44:14 +cwebber2; got it 07:44:18 ...the server would lok at everyone you sent it to (the followers), and send it out to the inbox of everyone in the followers collection 07:44:29 cwebber2, can you hear Jessica? 07:44:40 yeah, it's a bit faint but I can follow 07:44:50 AnnB has joined #social 07:44:58 yeah, she's mostly facing the screen, which is facing away from you 07:45:02 ... there are two URLs involved here, the user's outbox "feed" and the "followers" 07:45:34 sandro: no worries, it's sufficient 07:45:35 Q: is this like access control? 07:45:53 akuckartz_ has joined #social 07:45:55 Tsyesika: kind of, it's audience targeting but if the account is private then it acts as access control 07:46:07 Arnaud: can you tell us about the backend of distributing to the followers? 07:46:29 Tsyesika: it iterates through all the followers asynchronously and sends the full activity object to the inbox of everyone 07:47:46 Arnaud: so there are two resources that got created, one for the note itself, and one for the acitvity 07:48:16 Tsyesika: for updating a note, you specify the same note object but there's a new activity ID 07:49:55 it's like email and collections are like email lists 07:50:01 sandro: if the following collection changes tomorrow, who has access to the previous notes? 07:50:20 Tsyesika: if I were to write the spec now, it would be available to the people who were in the collection at the time it was posted 07:51:29 sandro: so I could update the note and send the update to a different set of people? 07:51:35 Tsyesika: i don't think this is specified either 07:51:45 elf-pavlik: i'll make an issue for clarifying the ACL 07:51:59 Tsyesika: deletion, creating a deletion activity specifying the ID of the note 07:52:43 the_frey has joined #social 07:52:59 ... a shell of the note remains at the original URL, which includes the deleted date. i'm going to open an issue to remove the publish/update dates from the deleted note 07:53:07 shepazu_ has joined #social 07:54:03 ... the delete activity becomes activity 3 07:54:29 next story: following a person 07:54:48 what's the URL 07:54:59 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/following-a-person.md 07:55:00 https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/following-a-person.md 07:55:05 (To be more specific, the ACL issue is: how do the acls of a Note related to the recipient lists of the various activities which create/update that note) 07:55:57 fyi it's totally cutting in and out so if someone addresss me I won't hear it 07:57:42 wseltzer: might help 07:58:04 we're entering into a user story I wrote up last night without being able to coordinate with Tsyesika 07:58:20 and some of this behavior is different than the pump api 07:59:36 a bit I think 08:00:39 Arnaud: the first step was the act of following, the second was the distribution of adding an activity? 08:01:23 Tsyesika: Delano posts a "follow" activity to his server with an object of Beth 08:01:48 explicit side-effect in the spec 08:01:54 elf-pavlik: what side effects does this have? it's a delivery mechanism and also changing the collection 08:02:03 Tsyesika: it's an explicit effect 08:02:09 ... this is acitivtypump specific 08:02:36 claudio has joined #social 08:02:37 +q 08:02:51 ... the server needs to know the "inbox" endpoint for beth, so it can go discover the endpoints 08:02:54 ack cwebber 08:03:17 cwebber2: btw some of this has changed from the pump API to activitypump at the request of the group, including the jsonld embedded in the HTML 08:03:48 ... one of the options we discussde was whether we should embed jsonld into the html, but there are other options, we could embed microformats or rdfa into the document 08:04:01 ... so we have not actually made decisions on this 08:04:40 ... were previously using webfinger but the group decided not tu ose webfinger 08:04:47 Tsyesika: so this is still an open issue for doing the URL discovery 08:05:09 ... so now you can make a post to their inbox 08:06:20 AnnB has joined #social 08:06:23 aaronpk: can you clarify the "public" id in the "to" 08:06:44 Tsyesika: this is a special URL that means the public collection 08:07:28 well, and 08:07:57 the target stuff is still in the editor's draft has to: cc: bcc: 08:08:01 it hasn't dropped that yet 08:08:04 for activitystreams 2 08:08:11 but I think we're willing to move with the group 08:08:22 it doesn't seem like it's gelled yet, even in the document 08:08:34 Tsyesika: pump.io uses primary and secondary audiences extensively, so i'm skeptical of getting rid of them 08:08:53 elf-pavlik: what's the difference with using "to" and specifying a secondary audience, vs just using target 08:09:46 Tsyesika: having a "to" of the public URL is essentially saying it's not to anyone, it's to everyone 08:09:57 elf-pavlik: it's pubsubhubbub style 08:10:07 it's not polling 08:10:08 it's push 08:10:16 you *can* pull 08:10:58 elf-pavlik: so why use the "to: inbox" why not just "target: my outbox" 08:11:29 Tsyesika: mainly because this is how all audience targeting works to avoid a special case for this 08:12:10 elf-pavlik, public collections are a "special collection", there could be a different convention to have the stream 08:12:26 but the convention is currently deliver to collections or users 08:12:44 bblfish: so the problem is in this case, the "id" is not derefencable so the code needs to special-case this all the time 08:12:51 Tsyesika: that's true 08:13:12 ...okay now this is delano looking at his inbox, he sees the post made by beth of the image, and presumably more activities below 08:13:39 ... unfollowing someone, they make another acitivty to their outbox, delano unfollowing beth 08:13:50 .. the object is the person, send to beth and cc the public URL 08:14:03 wseltzer: btw the call quality is much better now 08:14:53 Tsyesika: there is a suggestion for using the "undo" activity with the object of the activity you want to undo 08:15:23 ... so in this case the user is removed from the followers collection 08:15:56 bblfish: in some ways there's a similarity between micropub, which is that this is also not restful 08:16:22 Tsyesika: we do specify an alternative way of doing this, you do a PUT to any object 08:16:35 ... and has a side effect of generating the update activity 08:16:38 we had PUT and DELETE and removed it on feedback 08:16:48 timbl has joined #social 08:16:52 ... in some reasearch evan did, most people were posting activities 08:17:02 ... but we do make allowances for that in the specification 08:17:06 evan looking into it was also partly prompted by tantek requesting possibly dropping it down to GET/POST only 08:18:47 Tsyesika: next story: https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/blob/master/userstories/reading-a-users-recent-posts.md 08:18:53 ... 1. finding more content from an author 08:19:32 eprodrom has joined #social 08:19:47 activitypump is the socialwg iteration of the pump api ;) 08:19:49 hey eprodrom ! 08:19:57 indeed 08:20:06 ... looking at the inbox. this is where activitypump diverges from pump.io 08:20:29 ... pumpio has a specific comment type, so when you're posting a reply you're posting a comment, which is like a note 08:20:46 hhalpin has joined #social 08:20:51 ... but in activitypump we don't have a comment type, you just post any object, and add an inReplyTo 08:21:12 What 08:21:26 That's not true 08:21:38 interesting about no explicit comment type! 08:21:42 zakim, who's on the phone? 08:21:42 On the phone I see INRIA, cwebber2 08:21:55 Arnaud: I thought we were starting at 9:30 this morning again 08:21:58 eprodrom: can you clarify what's not true? 08:22:03 evanpro - the Zakim code is: 26631 08:22:05 we did 08:22:08 pump.io API doesn't require a specific type 08:22:12 hhalpin: thanks 08:22:20 But OK 08:22:24 eprodrom: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/france/paris 08:22:27 10:22 08:22:29 bblfish has joined #social 08:22:29 9:30 was 1h ago 08:22:56 Ah great 08:22:58 My bad 08:22:59 Tsyesika: I apologize to evan if I made a mistake 08:23:07 ok, regardless ActivityPump does have quite a few differences - evanpro, you may want to list them. 08:23:28 In particular, re dependencies on the rest of the "Ostatus" stack 08:23:44 Really? 08:23:56 Tseysika invites eprodrom to clarify 08:24:07 Which, about the comment type? 08:24:12 and clarify at some point what you think is crucial to keep and what dependencies you could live without. For example, didn't Google stop producing webfinger? 08:24:27 Tsyesika: you can if you wish to a GET on the user's outbox to see the activities they've done which is what's in this example 08:24:29 eprodrom: what are you objecting to? 08:24:36 that's where you should comment :) 08:24:42 Will do 08:24:57 dang time zones! 08:25:25 ... those are the user stories we got done last night, hopefully that gives you an idea 08:25:28 Tsyesika++ 08:25:30 Arnaud: are there any more questions? 08:25:30 Tsyesika has 9 karma 08:25:44 ... it seems that access control is a big difference 08:25:45 +eprodrom 08:26:27 Arnaud: looks like IndieWeb doesn't have ACL - looking at ActivityPump approach 08:26:44 aaronpk: we experiment with with it and it may work similar to ActivityPump 08:26:57 aaronpk: sending private not has some experiments but we still work on it 08:27:17 elf-pavlik: public content seems focus so far in IndieWe 08:27:50 elf-pavlik: it's not using pubsubhubbub 08:27:56 it's push-style 08:27:59 hhalpin_ has joined #social 08:28:12 q+ 08:28:21 cwebber2: pubsubhubbub is push-style, not sure what you mean 08:28:35 (that was me saying that, not cwebber2 oops) 08:28:52 aaronpk, right, I meant that it's push-style *like* pubsubhubbub, but it isn't *using* pubsubhubbib, sorry 08:29:01 aaronpk, that was the clarification I meant 08:29:06 (cool thanks) 08:29:14 bblfish: can you describe posting a photo 08:29:30 Tsyesika: you submit the file with the image content type, you get back the image ID 08:29:38 ...then you can submit an activity with the photo object 08:29:45 https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Follow Tsyesika can you please put it on a screen? 08:29:53 q+ 08:30:00 ...i'm not thrilled about having several requests, I like how indieweb did it where you submit just one request with all the metadata you want 08:30:23 ... we don't have any provisions right now for specifying a title when uploading the photo right now, so you have to do it in multiple requests 08:30:34 q? 08:30:36 ack hhalpin_ 08:30:39 q+ re: sidefects 08:30:41 q? 08:30:52 hhalpin_: quick note on the ACL point, I thought we had some stories about access control, but maybe not ones that we all agreed on had it 08:31:07 ... so it would be great to get it working, but if we can't even get public working then we shouldn't do access control 08:31:19 ... So in terms of activiitypump, it's nice that it's the one that's closest that maps to AS2.0 08:31:42 ... if you're looking to converge with the indieweb aapproach, what is your take on the form encoding 08:31:53 Tsyesika: there's lots of nested stuff, but they get around it by posting stuff individualyand referencing it by ID 08:32:06 ... that'd work, but i'm not huge on making lots of requests 08:32:29 ... i'm not necessarily against form encoding, but JSON has its merits, and especially JSONLD given its extensibility 08:32:37 I have the answer, call on me 08:32:47 ack eprodrom 08:32:56 q? 08:32:58 eprodrom: it's entirely possible, we had a mechanism in pump.io to include the image in the json encoded upload 08:33:10 q+ 08:33:14 ... it's less popular because you have to do some encoding in the JSON upload, so people like the double post more often 08:33:24 I'm trying to map the "big" differences and see where we can get consensus on the larger whole. 08:33:30 ... i'd also point out that the double-post mechanism comes from the atompub protocol 08:33:45 q+ 08:34:20 eprodrom: there is a mechanism in pump.io that didn't make it into activitypump, to encode a binary object in JSON, so if it's needed we can pull it over 08:34:28 ... the other option is the double post mechanism 08:34:28 https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Follow 08:34:32 ack elf-pavlik 08:34:32 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss sidefects 08:36:23 elf-pavlik: it could be viewed in an RDF type graph as well that's probably true 08:36:24 but 08:36:30 what happens if you follow, unfollow, follow? 08:36:37 elf-pavlik: posting the as:follow activity has the side effect of adding the :follows edge 08:36:49 Arnaud, you may want to mention the IBM testing effort for ActivityStreams about now 08:37:12 elf-pavlik: is the point that we'd have to test the behaviour? 08:37:18 ...you could make an automated test 08:38:03 q? 08:38:36 Tsyesika: when you submit a folow activity, twot hings happne. the activity is federated to the audience, and the user is added to the followers collection 08:38:49 ... so in the future, when you post to the followers collection as the audience, it will also federate to the new person 08:39:03 What is difficult about testing the side-effects (i.e. input->outputs)? 08:39:04 eprodrom: i think elf's point is that we don't have all those side effects listed out under the follow activity 08:39:22 ... we should probably do that for each of these activities 08:39:29 +1 be clearer about the input/outputs but bugs will be worked out in test-suite 08:39:33 "The Follow activity is used to subscribe to the activities of another user. Once the user has followed a user, activities shared with the Follows of that user SHOULD be added to the actors's inbox." 08:40:00 http://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/#activities 08:40:11 data visualisation: https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/container/DirectContainer 08:40:14 ack bblfish 08:40:32 bblfish: LDP also doesn't know how to do multiple files in one go 08:41:06 multiple files is an interesting motivation for the file endpoint 08:41:14 I hadn't realized that bit 08:41:17 ... couldn't activithypump also use multipart uploads? 08:41:36 Arnaud: currently LDP1.0 spec doesn't talk abotu how to optimize this kind of operation, you have to deal with every resource independelty 08:41:45 .. there have been discussions about how to optimize the traffic 08:42:04 ... there was some ealier draft that allowed it, there were questions about the details, so we took it out, now it's on the wishlist 08:42:21 -eprodrom 08:42:21 ... we just discussed the priority items for LDP, it was selected to allow that for the read, but not for the write 08:42:35 ... it's not clear that the next version will allow to post multiple things inthe same operation 08:42:52 timbl: we could take input from here 08:43:00 timbl++ 08:43:01 LDP WishList http://www.w3.org/2012/ldp/wiki/LDPNext 08:43:03 Arnaud: people are welcome to express their opinion here whether that's a priority 08:43:03 timbl has 3 karma 08:43:09 +eprodrom 08:43:22 ack aaronpk 08:43:38 aaronpk: i want to talk about Harrys question about convergence of APIs 08:43:38 aaronpk: I wanted to talk about quesiton of converging apis 08:43:40 -eprodrom 08:43:49 ... Bigger difference than form encoding 08:43:50 yes @sandro but there is also the list of 6 items that are being proposed for LDP next charter. that is more important 08:44:15 ... In activitypump you're always creating an activity that references an object, but in micropub you only create an object and no explicity activity 08:44:17 + +1.514.525.aaaa 08:44:23 ... trying to make those match up is more than dealing with nested objects 08:44:28 aaronpk, I think you are right on that analysis 08:44:29 http://rhiaro.co.uk/2015/04/post-and-activity-types 08:44:43 - +1.514.525.aaaa 08:44:47 ... it would take something like making micropub create activities vs objects, or having the activitypump api create the activities as a side effect of the object, rather than explicitly creating activities 08:44:53 bblfish, sure, it's all up to there ACTUALLY being a sufficient community to do this. 08:44:57 harry: do developers find it easier to work with activities or objects directly? 08:45:07 aaronpk: from what I've seen creating objects directly has been extremely straightfoward 08:45:15 ... but i haven't talked to a lot of people who are creating activitystreams posts 08:45:18 q+ 08:45:18 q? 08:45:21 Tsyesika: a matter of personal preference 08:45:29 ... activities are subject verb object type things 08:45:37 ... like Tsyesika posts Image 08:45:37 +eprodrom 08:45:40 yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved stories, so that those who are do not see their story in the wishlist, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff 08:45:40 q+ re: shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP 08:45:42 ... activities very much how yo'd construct a sentence 08:45:49 timbl has joined #social 08:46:00 ... It's not too difficult for developers to work with activities. Just personal preference, one isn't easier or harder 08:46:03 oops 08:46:04 Hey, the conference bridge is a mess 08:46:13 Am I the only one who can't hear anything, cwebber2 ? 08:46:24 yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved LDP next desires, so that those who are do not see their desire in the LDP next, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff 08:46:25 eprodrom: it's been the hard the whole time, believe it or not it's better than it was ;\ 08:46:29 Arnaud: aaron's point is that the significat difference between the two approaches is activities are implied and maybe reconstructed if you need to, whereas here they're explicitly stated and created as independant resources 08:46:31 q? 08:46:32 Oh 08:46:36 ack eprodrom 08:46:38 Hi 08:46:49 Developers overwhelmingly prefer the activity style 08:46:54 eprodrom, we can't hear you 08:47:05 I know, because your phone is all messed up 08:47:15 eprodrom: they can hear fine though 08:47:17 we just can't hear them 08:47:18 We had about an OOM difference between object-style and activity-stle 08:47:19 ;) 08:47:27 (Sorry I'm late: I'd like to repeat my offer to have a "crypto Q&A session" today so I can help as the invited observer who works in crypto) 08:47:46 eprodrom: with pump.io we have an order of magnitude difference between people doing operations on activityies vs creating objects directly 08:47:59 kaepora++ 08:48:01 kaepora has 1 karma 08:48:17 I can't hear, have to wait for the scribe 08:48:20 eprodrom, the question was: 08:48:22 Is there a way to fix the phone there? 08:48:34 we can try hanging up and dialing again, I guess 08:48:40 we didn't know it was broken! 08:48:45 you're not hearing anything? 08:48:48 we need a cofee break to fix it. What is the problem you are experienceing @eprodrom ? 08:48:52 eprodrom, could you clarify, was it that you had an experience with an overwhelming number of developers having preference 08:48:56 sandro: i think you were saying you tried both approaches and people preferred one? 08:48:58 between activities and objects 08:49:07 let eprodrom respond before we do that dacne 08:49:10 Yes, from pump.io logs 08:49:12 you guys can't hear anything? 08:49:15 we didn't know 08:49:17 none of you can hear us? 08:49:19 I can barely hear 08:49:22 hmm 08:49:32 BETTER 08:49:34 YES 08:49:35 cwebber2, it was working earlier, right? did it stop at some point? 08:49:37 yes much better 08:49:42 sandro: it has been bad the whole time 08:49:50 sandro: but it was even worse earlier 08:49:57 we could always switch to talky.io 08:49:59 I agree it's not a connection 08:50:03 now it's much clearer 08:50:29 it's just a long room, so some people aren't near the speakerphone. 08:50:37 anyway, maybe eprodrom should be able to reply to that point before we do any connect/disconnect dance? 08:50:56 +q 08:50:58 q+ 08:51:29 -q 08:51:34 eprodrom: did you mean people use posting of activities more than PUT and DELETE on objects? 08:51:50 eprodrom: your turn to speak 08:51:56 are you muted? 08:52:00 Yes 08:52:01 One sec 08:52:08 eprodrom, can you please expaned a bit on what you meant 08:52:08 Let's just go to break, I'm sorry 08:52:19 pfefferle has joined #social 08:52:29 is there something you want us to do during the break? 08:52:40 whoooo 08:53:14 eprodrom: yeah we did a big log scan based on a question from tantek. we had about 10x more people using activities endpoints posting update and delete activities ranther than PUT and DELETE on objects 08:53:19 eprodrom: that was via Tsyesika btw 08:53:20 ack eprodrom 08:53:27 eprodrom: i'd like to talk about differences between activitypump and pump.io api 08:54:00 ... there's a notify method, pump.io uses a regular webhooks mechanism, the other is activitypump requires https IDs for objects and pump.io allows any ID for objects 08:54:14 ... the requiement for https IDs came in from activitypump 08:54:24 ... i'm not crazy about it 08:54:44 Tsyesika: there's an issue open about both things, most of those are things left from how oshepherd wanted it, and I just didn't change it 08:54:50 so maybe dropping those HTTP IDs might be possible. 08:55:03 ... i'm more than open to having less stringent requirement for IDs, I don't think requiring TLS on URIs is necessary 08:55:09 that would probably make people happier re convergence 08:55:25 q+ 08:55:33 people using activities endpoint over PUT on objects could be a preference for endpoints over restful, not necessarily activities over objects (cc Tsyesika, eprodrom, cwebber2) 08:55:38 ... for the most part we're open to change 08:55:53 ack elf-pavlik 08:55:53 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP 08:55:54 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#User_posts_a_file 08:56:05 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject 08:56:10 elf-pavlik: activitypump seems heavy on side effects, LDP seems light on side effects 08:56:19 ...the user posts a file is a great story to demonstrate side effects 08:56:27 ... if we all compare this story we can talk more about the side effects 08:56:33 Arnaud: i thinkwe can defer that discussion to later 08:56:41 q? 08:56:46 ... the plan is next to talk about the similar stories with SoLID, the rest of the day is about talking about how they compare 08:56:50 ack hhalpin 08:56:54 ack hhalpin_ 08:57:02 hhalpin_: we are at inria, the world top center for TLS and web security stuff... 08:57:19 ... i'm going to talk with the researchers here, if people wanted to do a brief security session, maybe people would be interested 08:57:24 hm, the dev pref for activities seen on pump could be because those are theire esamples 08:57:25 totally dropping out 08:57:31 +1 TLS session 08:57:56 the call, I mean :) 08:58:00 PUT rather than POST? 08:58:02 should we do a crypto or TLS session? 08:58:13 I'll ask Karthik what his schedule is, but Nadim could also do it. 08:58:14 Arnaud: let's take a break for now, 10-15 minutes then look at SoLiD 08:58:42 PUT is a pain to do; POST is a form, hence micropub 08:59:37 bye, cwebber2 ... if you're going 08:59:45 AnnB: oh I'm not leaving 08:59:49 Tsyesika: I just found out that SUBSCRIBE/NOTIFY is an existing model in WebDAV 08:59:51 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa142938%28v=exchg.65%29.aspx 08:59:53 I meant, the call was dropping in and out of my ability to hear :) 08:59:57 https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa143117%28v=exchg.65%29.aspx 09:00:06 ah yes .. they're rebooting phone I think 09:00:07 Tsyesika: also, great job! 09:00:14 yes indeed 09:00:17 eprodrom: thanks! sorry about the few mistakes i made >.< 09:00:19 yes, Tsyesika++ 09:00:20 Tsyesika, kick ass work :) 09:00:23 Tsyesika++ 09:00:25 Tsyesika has 10 karma 09:00:27 Tsyesika: yes, sorry about my outburst 09:00:39 With pump.io, the "comment" type isn't required for a response 09:00:48 thanks for clarifying 09:00:48 Any in-reply-to response will work 09:00:51 pretty mild, if that was an outburst! 09:00:57 :) 09:01:12 anyway, I knew Tsyesika was the right person to present on the subject 09:01:14 However, I think the Web UI will barf if it sees something besides a comment there 09:01:21 Yes, fantastic 09:01:23 Tsyesika: I think you did a clearer job of presenting on the spec than I would have! 09:01:38 Did you ever hear back from Owen Shephard? 09:01:39 ok, now that we're at a bredak 09:01:43 I can finally get coffee 09:01:45 finallyyyyyyy 09:01:47 eprodrom: *sticks nose in* 09:01:48 go for it! 09:01:53 HEY 09:01:55 ohai oshepherd :) 09:01:57 Also, misspelled 09:02:10 Your last name 09:02:18 Hooray that you are here oshepherd 09:02:31 I have been suuuuper busy 09:02:56 anyone on the phone 09:03:13 I commented a couple of weeks back on verb vs object orientation... My conclusion was that the only difference here between indieweb and ActivityStreams *in practice* was the "post"/"share" verbs which IMO are very contentless (and I'd actually prefer ActivityStreams without them, because in practice they're - specifically the post verb - a huge source of problems in pump.io 09:05:02 Specifically the problem is that you really want the audience attached to the object, but it ends up attached to the post 09:05:22 tantek has joined #social 09:05:59 Anyway, on the subject of mandatory TLS: I'll note that the both Google, Mozilla and I believe the W3C itself have announced an intent to deprecate HTTP (non-S) 09:06:13 Understood 09:06:27 I like a SHOULD but I'm less crazy about a MUST 09:06:39 I also like Webfinger 09:06:53 kaepora: https://www.tuxed.net/fkooman/blog/indiecert_nitrokey.html 09:06:58 But I understand that the requirement for dereferenceable URIs makes that more complex 09:07:07 I haven't had a chance to catch up with Tsyesika's changes, but I did keep Webfinger *just* for the use case of translating user@domain identities 09:07:12 (We have to drag in the Webfinger spec) 09:07:22 Oh, I think it's out now 09:07:31 -eprodrom 09:08:02 elf-pavlik: I find it funny that you talk about the update to the social graph as a "side effect" 09:08:14 It seems like the primary intent of posting a "follow" activity 09:08:35 Theres a whole lot of social platforms out there today using such identities - StatusNet, PumpIO, Diaspora, more traditional things like XMPP, even email. I don't think we can say "Sorry, you have to throw away all your user IDs" to them 09:08:58 I see your point 09:09:10 But I think there's something to be said for consistency too 09:09:19 (I prefer keeping the Webfinger ID, btw) 09:09:45 But I very much kept WebFinger use minimal - its' just "take an acct URI and translate it into the URI of an ActivityStreams profile document" - and if your IDs aren't in acct: form, you don't need to implement a server 09:11:38 All of which is to say 09:11:41 oshepherd++ 09:11:43 oshepherd has 3 karma 09:11:50 Tsyesika += 1,000,000 09:12:06 Actually I guess in Python that'd be 09:12:24 Tsyesika = Tsyesika + 1000000 09:12:29 Python has += 09:12:32 Oh 09:12:34 Great! 09:12:45 Doesn't have ++ though, unless my brain has gone fuzzy 09:12:59 I usually assume that if a particular syntax element is convenient Python prudishly disallows it 09:13:16 B-) 09:14:14 I spend most of my time coding in SystemVerilog these days which is the mother of not-at-all convinient 09:14:45 Gabriel_Lachmann has joined #social 09:15:31 (No, SystemVerilog, nobody wanted their function's member variables to default static. But that's enough ranting about SystemVerilog :-)) 09:15:39 Wow 09:15:44 OK, I will pipe down then 09:16:01 Tsyesika, it looks like AS2.0 doesn't even have a "comment" type 09:16:06 Which is probably good 09:16:20 I've never been a big fan 09:16:56 eprodrom: yeah we use "Note" type as an example of what i'd use a "comment" in pump.io for 09:16:57 It's basically just a "note" 09:17:09 scribenick: rhiaro 09:17:16 scribenick: rhiaro_ 09:17:41 Arnaud: we have all afternoon, if we don't get through before lunch we can go on after 09:17:52 ... can people on the phone hear? 09:17:54 I can hear 09:17:59 bblfish has joined #social 09:18:23 akuckartz has joined #social 09:19:14 oshepherd: i did want you to look at #15 and #19 on https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/issues 09:19:19 oshepherd: not now but sometime 09:19:37 +eprodrom 09:19:43 deiu: will start with most basic example, create edit and delete a note 09:19:56 ... then henry's going to go over two more complex examples, profile editing and access control stuff 09:20:11 ... So SoLiD uses LDP to create new resources and manage resources 09:20:23 https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/blob/master/README.md#brief-example-of-solid-in-action 09:20:24 ... This makes it really easy for people who are used to a restful way of doing things 09:20:41 ... compared to previous examples, we're not using an endpoint to post new data, but creating data inside a container that is used to store similar types of resources 09:20:43 ... in this case, a notes container 09:20:44 Tsyesika: Using the NOTIFY element is supremely elegant. It's also quite likely to be a supreme pain in the ass, so I'd say go ahead and replace it with POST. 09:20:53 ... So we can see here our examples use curl 09:21:03 ... just to give you an impression of how simple they are 09:21:18 q+ 09:21:33 q+ to ask about "slug" 09:21:41 ... What we're doing is sending a post request with slug header, and data containing actual note. Uses activitystreams terms to describe note 09:21:48 ... [and is turtle] 09:22:01 ... could be json-ld 09:22:03 Tsyesika, as for HTTPS, maybe table this one for later. By the time any spec becomes a REC, I expect Lets Encrypt should make TLS certs trivially available 09:22:10 Could you speak up, please, deiu ? 09:22:20 ... use AS2.0 vocab 09:22:28 sandro: we haven't implmeented anything that uses that 09:22:35 deiu: we don't have an app that consumes AS2.0 data 09:22:42 ... the point is to demonstrate how you create and modify data 09:22:50 timbl: you can do it with a client without the server knowing anything 09:23:05 deiu: What the server returns is a Location header which has the full URI of the new resource 09:23:22 ... Second step is to correct/complete the note that was sent before 09:23:28 ... Client needs to update existing resource with the new data 09:23:33 ... SoLiD has two ways of doing this 09:23:37 ... can do a PUT to replace whole resource 09:23:50 ... uses URI of new resource, that you get back in the Location header 09:23:50 oshepherd: might be good to write that on the issue just so evan can respond, i am not against lowering the requirements but i'm also not really bothered by it either but it seems evan is 09:24:03 ... Second way of doing is to send an HTTP PATCH with a SPARQL UPDATE 09:24:03 Yes 09:24:04 I am 09:24:14 ... in which you modify only the bit of information you want to change 09:24:21 phone people ... are you still having trouble hearing? 09:24:32 Yes, it's just fading in and out 09:24:35 ... We should probably add PATCH but it's not relevant to this group 09:24:41 I think the speaker needs to be louder or closer to the phone 09:24:50 he's as close as he can get 09:24:52 sandro: PATCH is subject to conneg. The one here is implemented, but there's a w3c rec for a different patch format 09:24:54 OK, thanks 09:24:55 http://www.w3.org/TR/ldpatch/ 09:24:56 deiu: we do support json patches 09:25:02 ... if you have json-ld file you could use that 09:25:21 ... final step is user decides to delete note 09:25:34 ... HTTP operation on the resource itself (DELETE) 09:25:52 q? 09:26:01 ack eprodrom 09:26:19 q+ re: request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid 09:26:46 eprodrom: social software often when you're posting a note, you would send it somewhere, like the inbox of followers or mentions inbox of person mentioned 09:26:50 ... I understand this wouldn't be possible? 09:27:08 ... So side effect wouldn't happen server side, has to happen client side 09:27:19 deiu: yes, everything happens in the client. Client is charged to send notification to someone's inbox 09:27:28 ... or you could have additional app-specific service which listens to changes on containers 09:27:42 ... then based on changes on containers like new resource created, could trigger app-specific processes 09:27:49 melvster: triggers websocket 09:27:51 eprodrom: that's interesting 09:27:59 ACTION: pelf create comparison of side effects approach in MicroPub, ActivityPump and SoLiD 09:28:00 Created ACTION-61 - Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12]. 09:28:13 ... twitter members have millions or tens of millions of follows, would not be scaleable to have client distribute note to millinos of inboxes 09:28:16 q+ 09:28:20 ... starts becoming difficult for client 09:28:30 ... and if two different clients do it differently you don't have a very consisten social experience 09:28:48 ... so if there is a way to have a consistant side effect that provides these sorts of features in ldp that would be interesting 09:29:04 q+ 09:29:09 ... access control too 09:29:13 deiu: we have access control 09:29:27 ... SoLiD does implement websockets 09:29:34 ... has a websocket interface for all it's resources 09:29:48 ... you could have a service which listens on a websocket which has subscribed to that container, which can process all the data that gets into the container 09:29:50 huh, that's interesting 09:29:54 timbl: which works for hundreds of thousands of people 09:30:18 eprodrom: if you come check yoru inbox in the morning and want to see all the stuff that happened since yesterday, has to be some kind of application process, or you can leave a websocket open all night 09:30:25 ... so websocket interesting for online updates, but not distirbution 09:30:33 deiu: distribution happens by a service, like a pubsub service 09:30:39 ... that listens to data and upates all its subscribers 09:30:43 Arnaud: more background on ldp 09:30:51 ACTION: pelf document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients 09:30:51 Created ACTION-62 - Document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12]. 09:31:08 ... there are different use cases. LDP spec defines generic protocol to create and update and find resources 09:31:17 ... but there are different types of servers that can implement LDP 09:31:27 ... there is what we refer to as (??) applications 09:31:32 ... no specific application semantic associated 09:31:34 q- 09:31:35 ... generic datastore 09:31:42 ... you send bits, they store, you ask and they return 09:31:45 ... never any side effects 09:31:50 ... Other peopel use LDP with very application specific servers 09:31:59 ... for example, IBM uses LDP in the context of application lifecycle management 09:32:06 ... LDP is a thin layer put on the top of legacy software 09:32:27 ... in this case when you create a resource using LDP you create something with very specific semantics, and has application specific side effects 09:32:45 ... possible to imagine in this case youc ould hasl have an application specifi cserver, with side effects like distribution and notifications and things like that 09:32:50 1? 09:32:51 ack aaronpk 09:32:51 aaronpk, you wanted to ask about "slug" 09:33:12 aaronpk: about slug - is that meant to be a unique slug per note, or a namespace where multiple things go? 09:33:16 rhiaro_: thanks for scribing so well 09:33:18 deiu: a hint on how you want URI to end up looking 09:33:25 ... was name, not namepsace 09:33:28 ... suggested name 09:33:33 ... server could ignore it 09:33:42 Arnaud: that's not specific to LDP, there's an RFC on slug 09:33:56 aaronpk: Ok. Other thing - you do or do not have implementations consuming the data? 09:34:04 deiu: I meant about activity streams vocab 09:34:16 ... we don't have an implementation that consumes AS 09:34:20 ... things created so far don't use AS 09:34:25 sandro: CIMBA uses SIOC 09:34:30 ack elf-pavlik 09:34:30 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid 09:34:36 action-61 09:34:36 action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN 09:34:36 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/61 09:34:38 elf-pavlik: for the side-effects I created action-61 09:34:48 ... I don't think it's enough to just have this in minutes 09:34:50 ... we should document on wiki 09:34:57 https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/18 09:35:04 ... Also I'm going to request on SoLiD repo that we can have a social web perspect 09:35:07 ... ive 09:35:15 ... eg. using json-ld first instead of turtle, etc 09:35:20 ... to make it easier for group 09:35:29 ... whoever wants to work on it with me, can help 09:35:45 q+ to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP 09:35:50 timbl: do you think making it a live switchabe document, switching example format between json-ld and turtle is good? Or document rewritten? 09:36:04 elf-pavlik: I think some things like with sparql updates, some peopel won't even want to go there 09:36:23 elf-pavlik: That's true 09:36:33 deiu: sparql and ldp patch or whatever else have been added as alternatives 09:36:38 ... in addition to LDP http requests 09:36:38 My eyes just skip over those options 09:36:42 ... we should work together 09:36:53 ack bblfish 09:36:53 elf-pavlik: make it clear we don't HAVE to use these 09:37:02 11:36 eprodrom My eyes just skip over those options 09:37:20 what do you mean, eprodrom, that your "eyes skip over those options"? 09:37:31 bblfish: it woudl be extremely useful for LDP or this group, to have some way for any resource to be able to say I want to subscribe to this resource so you can say you want to see any changes on a document. Could be really generic 09:37:36 q+ 09:37:40 ... would work like activitystreams, could poitn to another collection somewhere else 09:37:44 When there's a section of SoLiD like, "Or, you could do a SPARQL query like this..." 09:37:46 ... the resource itself on the server could post notification changes 09:37:47 AnnB: ^^^^ 09:37:53 ... we could solve the problem mentione don the phone 09:38:00 eprodrom: AnnB: same with me 09:38:18 Arnaud: there are discussions about this in LDPNext about being able to keep track of changes to resources and be notfied 09:38:26 ... you can have an optimal way of knowing what has changed 09:38:31 does that mean it's not useful to you, or it's not actually functioninng, or ...?? 09:38:33 ... instead of having to fetch the whole resource and figure it out 09:38:47 ... you can use patch format to tell you what has changed. Possible in future of LDP 09:38:57 ack sandro 09:38:57 sandro, you wanted to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP 09:39:13 AnnB: It's not useful to me, and mentioning it in the spec is less helpful 09:39:21 sandro: what would solve that is if webmention were standardise and LDP incorporate that 09:39:33 q+ 09:39:39 ... assumign you can have massive webmention servers. Offloads from client and puts in normal server infrastructure 09:39:43 ack claudio 09:39:56 PUT and PATCH are retro von Neumann worldviews 09:40:04 claudio: from my commercial point of view, most of the use cases are around personas rather than topics 09:40:08 POST is more general 09:40:11 +ben_thatmustbeme 09:40:21 ... but we have uses cases where it's important to people to stream content, to interact over topics instead of among each other 09:40:22 Zakim, mute me 09:40:22 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 09:40:25 so eprodrom, is that specific to rdf and sparql, or all of the linked data stuff? 09:40:36 ... If we have a streaming event like a movie, we are really interested in seeing what people are thinking about a topic 09:40:37 AnnB: it's actually more editorial about the document 09:40:55 aha, thanks 09:40:56 ... we are forseeing technologies for adapting streaming content to people's mood etc. So critical to happen realtime. I wonder if these technical solutions would cover it 09:41:02 There's one clear and simple way to get a task done, then a few other options that are less clear and less simple 09:41:04 movie's aren't streaming 09:41:09 ... As far as I understand most silos are consumer oriented. In twitter you can provide a topic and see how people react to that 09:41:20 ... We are using webRTC, there's a lot to do, to provide personalised video streams 09:41:24 ... so we need to knwo what people are thinking 09:41:27 sandro: hashtags? 09:41:29 altho I still don't truly understand the nuance of your comment 09:41:32 2-way is streaming; movies are downloads 09:41:34 claudio: yes but we dont' want to rely on twitter 09:41:47 ... intresting example with virtual product placement, or virtual notification of live streaming events 09:41:58 ... We are not sure we can model it with most of these decentralised solutions 09:42:15 claudio: there are two options 09:42:18 +q 09:42:21 hashtags are not bound to twitter 09:42:32 fyi, Claudio is from Telecom Italia 09:42:33 they span multiple models 09:42:33 sandro: out of scope for this group 09:42:35 ben_thatmustbeme: for me too 09:42:41 Arnaud: do we have user stories that get close to this? 09:42:49 ben_thatmustbeme: yeah the call quality is not good 09:42:50 bblfish: we have a bug database that is content oriented 09:42:54 ... or one for a product 09:43:12 ... interaction on an object not on a [person] community comes around the object 09:43:29 sandro: hashtags are harder, they don't have identifiers 09:43:43 timbl has joined #social 09:43:53 claudio: we are looking at things in Telecom Italia, in talks with netflix, they're using product placement for funding content 09:43:57 ... this could be done on the fly 09:44:06 ... adaptive advertisement 09:44:20 ... customise content basedon what people are saying in realtime 09:44:22 ... this is feasible 09:44:25 yeah we really need external mics for the phone because the people on the ends of the table are super hard to hear 09:44:33 ben_thatmustbeme, sorry 09:44:37 this is the user story I mentioned https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Product_issue_reports 09:44:42 ... we rely on twitter for now because we don't have an open decentralised solution for this 09:44:47 ... I understand may be out of socpe 09:45:06 ... topics could be in the future 09:45:13 q? 09:45:14 ben_thatmustbeme, sorry, it's my client default to use : 09:45:21 so I have to correct it constantly 09:45:23 -eprodrom 09:45:51 sandro: we had a hashtags user stories, was -1 because it's too hard 09:46:04 I figured the scribenick made it clear 09:46:05 (I called his attention to your comment, KevinMarks, about streaming vs download) 09:46:05 elf-pavlik: could observe if something is otu of scope and check if something might block it in the future and flag it 09:46:06 but I guess not 09:46:13 ... and we can do our best to take that into account 09:46:28 claudio: I wonder if takign it into accoutn could make it easier if we decide we want to handle it 09:46:31 I guess it doesn't, at least, when someone takes over for scribing 09:46:33 ... I understand standardising hashtags is not easy 09:46:34 +eprodrom 09:46:36 ... or impossible 09:46:40 ... but could be valuable 09:46:40 eprodrom_ has joined #social 09:47:00 q? 09:47:04 Aha 09:47:15 bblfish: a company taht did a bookmarking service, you could bookmark things and when you typed a word they would do a text analysis, then find dpbedia concepts and URIs that were related to concepts in the page 09:47:34 ... it looks to the user like a hashtag, but behind is the semantics of dpbedia and URIs 09:47:55 ... helps users avoid clashes 09:48:02 Are we still talking about the media monitoring? 09:48:13 timbl: there are some structured hashtags, some are totally random 09:48:17 ... it would be fun though 09:48:17 Could we maybe get back to the social API agenda? 09:48:29 autocomplete is fine, estatign the tag the user assigned isn't 09:48:41 Arnaud, are we on-topic? 09:48:47 elf-pavlik: could have hashtag.cc like prefix.cc 09:48:49 I'd like to talk about SoLiD 09:48:53 ack eprodrom 09:49:01 ALERT everyone's wifi passcodes are expiring 09:49:04 stay tuned 09:49:18 eprodrom: can we go back to talking about SoLiD 09:49:39 ... concerned that notifications like webmention might be useful, but in other ones there's a more complex effect in executing a social action 09:49:46 ... eg a follow action would update the actor's following list 09:50:01 ... and distribute follow action to serveral inboxes 09:50:07 ... so I'm not sure this is just about notification 09:50:13 ... there's a lot of updates that could happen 09:50:20 ... again, it's all entirely possible to do these using polling 09:50:38 ... you could poll every list of every social graph then add reverse pointers 09:50:43 ... but much easier to get collection of people 09:50:57 akuckartz has joined #social 09:51:16 ... if we use SoLiD we're goign to have to put a lot of burden on the client which is unfair to the client and likely to generate a lot of errors 09:51:24 ... or we're going to have to limit ourselves to very simple social interactions 09:51:29 q? 09:51:31 ack cwebber 09:51:31 bblfish: we have more examples 09:51:45 One could use (coincidentally) a distributed hash table for coordonating people interested in hashtags. The problem is a bit like the NNTP newsgroup distribution problem, as newsgroup names and hashtags are bothe basicallt arbitrary short strings. 09:51:58 action-61 09:51:58 action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN 09:51:58 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/61 09:52:09 eprodrom_ let's work on documenting it together? 09:52:15 cwebber2: I'm curious what happens in terms of how much link rot impacts this system, especially if you end up having commuincation with someone else and their whole site goes down? How does that affect yoru local record of your interaction with them? And also resolving information about that? 09:52:24 ... curious about what ends up happening when somebody else's server goes down 09:52:24 timbl, you could also have one or more aggregation servers 09:52:43 deiu: how is this specific to solid? will affect any decentralised service? 09:52:58 AnnB_ has joined #social 09:53:00 hashtags converge because language converges 09:53:01 cwebber2: if my mail server goes down you can't send me email. You still have access to all the email you have from me 09:53:06 ... and contact metadata 09:53:18 q? 09:53:20 ... I'm not making a comment, this is a real question 09:53:22 We do have hastags: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Search_content_with_hashtags 09:53:23 As Evan said: -1. I think search is probably difficult to do for this API. Maybe a separate API? --Evan Prodromou (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC) 09:53:28 q+ re: capturing ACTIONs 09:53:40 sandro: we don't address that yet, the answer is to use caching proxies or archiving services where I access your site through something that keeps a copie 09:53:47 ... we need that for performance reasons too 09:53:48 to put it another way, hashtags works precisely because they don't have namespaces; thus forcing convergence 09:53:55 deiu: in a decentralised system, there are two ways to shuffle information around 09:53:59 ... you base it on poll or push 09:54:06 ... either you push notifications to people directly to their own servers 09:54:17 ... or you wait for them to poll your feed/outbox of notifications and everyone gets theirs when they want 09:54:31 bblfish: interesting compatibility with AS2 09:54:42 ... you could have feed of activities which you fill in whenever an action happens on the LDP server 09:54:54 ... if a client misses a poll request they can go back to the feed and find all the changes 09:54:58 ... this might be where this is going 09:55:03 timbl: you can convert between the two 09:55:11 thx sandro, deiu 09:55:17 ... when you know the state of some resource you can accumulate the differences 09:55:32 ... if you have a series of update messages you can generate the results 09:55:51 Arnaud: eprodrom, isn't that true for all other solutions too? 09:56:00 ... if aaron's website is down I can't access any content? 09:56:00 I think you mean me, not eprodrom_ :) 09:56:04 ... same with pumpio and activitypump 09:56:13 ... Valid question, but why make it sound like it's specific to SoLiD? 09:56:20 ... sorry I meant cwebber2 09:56:44 cwebber2: curious because I imagine (??) sparql something .. 09:56:48 hhalpin has joined #social 09:56:51 ... you end up storing copies of communication 09:57:01 ... not sure if you do sparql queries across multiple sites 09:57:08 ... I just don't have experience with this type of infrastructure 09:57:11 Arnaud, in microformats its assumed that data is copied and stored, not constantly pulled 09:57:16 ... I think there are issues when a node goes down and someone can't access 09:57:17 q+ 09:57:21 q+ 09:57:28 An invited observer, Francesca Musiani, who is studying decentralized networking and internet governance as a sociologist at CNRS, has just joined us. 09:57:31 ... anyway, not tryign to challenge this, just to see if this is something that SoLiD has 09:57:36 ack elf-pavlik 09:57:36 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss capturing ACTIONs 09:57:39 q? 09:57:50 elf-pavlik: quick comment. I see need that we capture more actions and put thing son wiki page as we explore things 09:58:05 ... every meeting every week we stumble on the same things from different directions 09:58:14 ... every time there is a problem make an action or put it on the wiki 09:58:19 ... it gets lost in the minutes 09:58:26 ... indiewebcamp has a good approach, we can take inspiration from that 09:58:31 ack deiu 09:58:32 ... to build up common understanding of each implementation 09:58:43 deiu: can we make it an open issue? [caching] and think about it later? It affects every proposal 09:58:51 elf-pavlik: someone take action to document issue 09:58:54 sandro: or just raise issue 09:58:55 q? 09:58:58 deiu: please raise issue 09:59:11 ack eprodrom_ 09:59:41 eprodrom: I think the reason chris brought it up is that SoLiD is putting a lot of the burden onto the client to make sure that the state of the world is maintained 09:59:47 q+ 09:59:53 ... I know you're trying to concentrate on simple examples 09:59:56 issue: do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail? 09:59:56 Created ISSUE-39 - Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?. Please complete additional details at . 09:59:58 melvster has joined #social 10:00:01 ... but I'm more interested in ones that have more complex interactions like follow 10:00:02 Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84005&oldid=83430 10:00:16 q+ re: running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities ) 10:00:29 ... would generate a follow activity in my outbox, generate multiple follow activities in multiple inboxes, update my follows list and woudl update someone else's folllowers list 10:00:40 ... if any one of those fails, then the state of the world is out of sync 10:00:55 ... in pump.io each server is responsible for processing those actions Only one message is transmitted between servers 10:01:09 ... if evan on one server follows arnaud on another server the only notification that goes from one to the other is the activity noteification 10:01:19 ... the server doesn't try to write to arnaud's collection from even's server 10:01:28 q? 10:01:28 ... that means just re-sending an activity is much easier 10:01:40 ... server's responsibility, so much easier and more reliable 10:01:46 ... can do retries 10:01:52 ... not up the client 10:02:11 Arnaud: solid have more walkthroughs 10:02:23 ack deiu 10:02:42 deiu: SoLiD started as a general platform not social, but we are intereseted in managing notifications 10:02:48 q+ to answer eprodrom_ re consistency 10:02:53 ... We want any app to have a way to notify apps and other servers about changes 10:02:53 q? 10:02:56 q+ 10:02:57 ... So AS2 could help us do that 10:03:05 ... which means we would have to implement some of this logic in the server 10:03:08 That's great 10:03:09 sandro: different answer 10:03:12 ack sandro 10:03:12 sandro, you wanted to answer eprodrom_ re consistency 10:03:19 ... about 20 minutes ago henry mentioned idea of generic website 10:03:30 so move the side effect / notification stuff off to activitystreams, and the actual store of things on RDF / linked data? 10:03:34 ... we haven't implmemented this yet, this is speculative 10:03:39 is that what you mean deiu ? 10:04:01 ... If I follow someone we change the link to say I follow them, then there's data propagation that doesn't care about the semantics of what happened. All changes are all just data changes 10:04:11 ... haven't standardised that yet, but lots of ways to do it 10:04:22 timbl: could be something like thermometer has just taken new temperature reading 10:04:32 sandro: we want this to work for long tail of multi user appications, social is just 1% 10:04:47 ... doesn't necessarily mean anything to anyone in this group, but this is the background about why we're designing like this 10:04:53 ack elf-pavlik 10:04:54 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities ) 10:05:01 q= 10:05:08 Q+ 10:05:24 elf-pavlik: to give our collaboration more structure. We can't say easier/harder/worse/better - it's subjective. We should document possibilities and constraints so everyone knows the options 10:05:39 q? 10:05:40 ... We need clear way to talk about rendering, content editing, notifications, we need clear vocabulary for this 10:05:50 ... Because responsibilities can be handled elsewhere 10:06:03 ack AnnB 10:06:10 ... Don't make constraints based only on personal use cases, but document these constraints 10:06:18 AnnB: enterprise interest is more about workflow management 10:06:21 ... than social 10:06:45 ... seems that the linked data stuff which reflects more data changes, like some travel approval comes through or some supply chain change 10:07:00 ... in Boeing we transfer every ten minutes as much data as in the library of congress 10:07:03 q+ 10:07:07 ... so the general data stuff is important to me/Boeing 10:07:14 ? 10:07:17 sandro: the other proposals can handle data flowing as well 10:07:22 Are we done with SoLID stories? 10:07:31 hhalpin: I think I keep interrupting 10:07:31 Or can we move comparing SoLID to ActivityPump? 10:07:34 ack bblfish 10:07:38 Maybe we should let deiu finish 10:07:38 q- hhalpin 10:08:09 bblfish: there's no distinction between client and server. servers can speak to servers to make these updates too, could be in the background 10:08:14 ... then we rely on REST for getting and caching resources 10:08:23 ... all the infrastructure of the web is there for us 10:08:30 ... no duplication of data because all data is at the URI that names it 10:08:45 ... so what's missing is for updates to be sent when the content changes before the cache expirey date 10:09:04 ... to say please refresh cache. At architectural level that's what missing 10:09:06 cache includes browser cache, social backend cache etc. 10:09:09 to expand my point, we are interested in the "social" components, as well as the workflow management -- and we see relationship between the two 10:09:24 Arnaud: break for lunch, continue with user stories after lunch 10:09:33 hhalpin: some AC people have to leave at like 3? 10:09:38 sandro: at 5, when the meeting is over 10:09:43 AnnB: we're going straight from here 10:10:00 rhiaro_: actually the schedule stuff is very helpful 10:10:03 For those of us on the phone 10:10:10 Since it's mostly inaudible 10:10:26 rhiaro_: thanks 10:10:32 So breaking for lunch now? 10:10:32 hhalpin: who wants a TLS session after SoLiD 10:10:43 q? 10:10:45 Thank you 10:10:55 Sorry to be so needy :) 10:11:06 hhalpin: if people want to fit that in, we're in INRIA so we could have a TLS session 10:11:12 ... but it's out of scope for group 10:11:25 AnnB: let's not get distracted 10:11:57 Arnaud: we should go through our agenda 10:12:02 ... two more stories for SoLiD 10:12:05 ... general discussion 10:12:08 ... comparison 10:12:20 ... once we've seen three different proposals, see what the differences are 10:12:24 ... then there are demos 10:12:54 melvster has short demos, for more generic use cases. deiu has a specific demo 10:13:14 AnnB: TLS thing feels too much distraction 10:13:19 ... Didn't know it came up 10:13:45 Arnaud: proposal is that once we're done with agenda, those interested can have security discussion with INRIA 10:13:46 +1 TLS after AC participants leave 10:13:49 hey also 10:13:50 ... *now* breaking for lunch 10:13:55 rhiaro++ for great scribing :) 10:13:58 rhiaro has 74 karma 10:14:02 rhiaro++ 10:14:04 Thanks for scribing rhiaro_ 10:14:05 rhiaro has 75 karma 10:14:11 rhiaro++ 10:14:13 rhiaro is a karma accumulator 10:14:14 rhiaro has 76 karma 10:14:29 Lunch 1 hour 10:14:33 back at quarter past 10:14:34 -ben_thatmustbeme 10:15:30 -eprodrom 11:18:51 For anyone not physically present, we haven't made it back from lunch yet 11:19:19 rhiaro: ok thx 11:22:54 tantek has joined #social 11:25:26 rhiaro: thanks 11:25:44 I like that phrasing 11:25:52 It makes it sound like we're visitors from the spirit realm 11:30:45 +ben_thatmustbeme 11:30:55 Zkim, mute me 11:31:03 Zakim, mute me 11:31:03 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 11:33:30 Are we live again? 11:33:47 i hear nothing 11:33:53 i just jumped on to see 11:35:00 greetings - administrivia request: I'd like to cancel next week's telcon (and suggest adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f) 11:35:39 eprodrom, there is talking again 11:36:08 Arnaud, eprodrom, hhalpin ^^^ 11:37:22 hola 11:38:00 tantek: what's the rationale for that? 11:38:12 People are just drifting back in 11:38:15 most people not back yet 11:38:56 Arnaud: it's a request, and typical in many WGs. Allows for more time for post-f2f async follow-ups (which there tend to be more of) before the next telcon. 11:39:03 -cwebber2 11:39:19 I didn't hear anything, but I am redialing 11:39:28 could have been my connection 11:39:33 Also good to acknowledge that sometimes a f2f can be tiring and giving people a week to "recover" is good too. 11:39:35 I'm open to it but not in favor of making it a rule 11:39:48 I don't think it's a rule in any WG - more of a custom. 11:39:56 So I'm proposing it as a one-off for next week 11:40:27 then we can get feedback from WG members about were they ok with it, appreciated it, or would have preferred having a telcon. 11:40:37 +??P0 11:40:38 "adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f" sounded like making it a rule/policy 11:40:45 Zakim, ??P0 is me 11:40:45 +cwebber2; got it 11:40:47 I can hear again 11:41:03 Arnaud: the *and* was intended as a two part proposal 11:41:09 ok 11:41:28 I wanted to provide my longerterm intentions 11:42:16 ben_thatmustbeme: no? 11:42:26 s/:/,/ 11:42:31 arg 11:42:38 cwebber2 haha, :P 11:43:22 +eprodrom 11:43:39 (setq erc-pcomplete-nick-postfix ",") 11:43:41 there we go 11:43:45 Cool 11:44:26 It's almost worse to hear the telecon at this point 11:44:36 IMTS the audio 11:44:50 Mostly getting rough impressions 11:44:52 hm? How's the audio? There are multiple conversations in the room as we haven't started yet. 11:44:57 Ah, right 11:45:26 sandro, it's pretty bad right now 11:45:41 That's great 11:46:16 I'm sorry to be so demanding about the phone 11:46:18 I am still in a separate meeting and cannot call in. 11:46:29 It's a lot easier when someone is scribing 11:46:45 fyi: we had lunch at a restaurant nearby that was pretty crowded and it took longer to get served than we would have liked 11:47:02 people are still slowing coming back 11:47:06 eprodrom, someone needs to scribe the ambient smalltalk! ;) 11:47:13 No problem whatsoever 11:47:25 s/slowing/slowly/ 11:47:31 Arnaud: PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f. 11:47:39 +1 11:48:22 personally I think we still have issues on AS we could talk about on the telecon 11:48:53 we will continue to do so, and I think they could wait til the next telcon 11:48:53 I'm not against the telecon :) I just wouldn't mind the break! 11:49:04 cwebber2: agreed. We could use the break after a f2f. 11:49:18 scribe: sandro 11:49:23 scribenick: sandro 11:50:19 Before we start do we want to bring up tantek's proposal? 11:50:50 which is, in a few words? 11:50:51 I'd rather wait to see where we end up 11:51:06 sandro, PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f. 11:51:32 Arnaud, is that a -1 or a 0? 11:51:51 this is: later :) 11:51:54 tantek, I suggest we use it as an informal recap of the F2F, esp for people who didnt attend 11:51:55 tantek, i think thats a postpone vote 11:52:12 informal recap could be ok 11:52:20 Sorry to say, we're behind on our deliverables and I don't think it makes sense to take a week off 11:52:22 q? 11:52:30 https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/blob/master/UserStories/UserProfileManagement.md 11:52:33 I don't think that's a good use of sync time - recaps belong in summaries on a URL. 11:52:33 topic: solid walkthrough: profile management 11:52:38 I'm with evan 11:53:10 tantek, in my experience, these recaps are mostly discussion 11:53:13 eprodrom, we're only "behind" because the dates set were unreasonable and without explicit methodology as to *how* they were going to be met. 11:53:32 so such "we're behind" justification is a bit hollow 11:54:22 deiu: I'm showing my profile, using an app, which gathers the data from multiple sources, some of which are public and some are restricted-access. 11:54:34 tantek, but that's what people who run late always say 11:54:47 eprodrom: that's a tautology and false 11:55:07 I stated from the beginning that the proposed schedules were unrealistic and should be dropped. 11:55:20 Fair enough 11:55:29 deiu: I'm adding a phone number, and the apps asks which place I want to put it -- with different associated access control 11:55:42 I don't think such top-down schedules are a good way to run or motivate a working group 11:55:47 AnnB has joined #social 11:55:50 sorry 11:56:04 deiu: See how in the PUBLIC version of my profile, my phone numbers don't appear 11:56:10 melvster, are you running mIRC on windows95? ;) 11:56:19 deiu: that is, when I'm not logged in 11:56:25 q+ 11:56:29 misclick 11:56:45 No, you can't use a#b to scroll to a location in a JSON! I just checked! :P 11:57:02 deiu: the app pulls in the profile elements from different places 11:57:47 I do wish I could watch this presentation... I suppose such things are the risks you take when you attend remotely tho :) 11:57:55 kaepora++ 11:57:57 kaepora has 2 karma 11:58:12 cwebber2, you get what you pay for 11:58:15 deiu: (shows network trace, where some profiles give a 403 because he's not allowed access to those, with this identity) 11:58:29 q? 11:58:35 ack eprodrom 11:58:40 deiu: (as intended) 11:59:14 eprodrom: The user-profile --- you use schema.org, foaf, vcard, ... why didn't you use AS2.0? 11:59:25 deiu: This app is older than AS 2.0 11:59:50 I don't know if this is going to work, but it might... https://talky.io/socialwg 11:59:51 not older than vcard nor hCard :P 12:00:09 eprodrom: API surface? The client needs to pull a bunch of different data from different URLs 12:00:21 deiu: Yes 12:00:44 eprodrom: To document this API for a client developer, I'd need to document all these URLs? 12:00:52 deiu: No, it's just following links. 12:01:01 aaronpk, I thought they said yesterday that the port (?) we need for talky is blocked at the INRIA firewall 12:01:19 I'm on a VPN 12:01:24 deiu: The API is just doing GETs on URLs of the resources of interest, following links. HATEOAS 12:01:48 hhalpin has joined #social 12:01:51 tantek, it uses vcard 12:02:03 aha 12:02:04 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-18/line/1426710246277 12:02:12 the rdf vcard vocabulary, which I think is compatbile with hcard 12:02:19 http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-18/line/1426710400225 12:02:20 I get to a splash screen, and no further 12:02:24 vcard++ 12:02:26 vcard has 1 karma 12:02:40 timbl: Code can following multiple links, like the older version of the vocab and the newer version. So one could convert to AS2.0 gradually, with supporting the old vocabs, too. 12:02:52 pfefferle has joined #social 12:03:02 deiu: To build on that example, using tabulator 12:03:10 -eprodrom 12:03:13 evan did 12:03:16 but i can hear 12:03:34 eprodrom, you calling back? 12:03:37 Sorry, I'm off the phone, trying to work out talky.io stuff 12:03:45 eprodrom's still on talky at least ;) 12:04:11 It's actually much better than the phone bridge 12:04:23 really? 12:04:26 yeah it's not bad 12:04:36 cool beans 12:04:42 +??P2 12:04:50 kaepora: can you please share link to resource saying that you can't do fragment URIs in JSON? a#b ? 12:05:46 deiu: I'm using tabulator as a generic skin to render the RDF data in my profile as HTML so it can display in the browser 12:06:31 q+ re: note on 'server' and 'client' side rendering e.g. JSON-LD -> RDFa https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1 12:06:32 deiu: I can add additional data to my profile, using a vocabulary I make up, for "hometown" 12:06:48 aaronpk: I just disabled video for that reason 12:06:53 -ben_thatmustbeme 12:07:01 deiu: I just defined a new property, "hometown" 12:07:15 deiu: Now tabulator lets me set values for it 12:07:53 deiu: So *without programming* I was able to define a new profile property, and then apps allowed users to add it. 12:08:11 ben_thatmustbeme surprisingly so 12:08:12 that's great to learn 12:08:38 those who were remote at the last TPAC said same thing 12:08:50 elf-pavlik: something about templates 12:09:01 really surprising, since the audio is just coming through the webcam 12:09:02 eprodrom, may be more to do with microphone quality than anything 12:09:27 deiu: Lea Verou of CSS WG is doing a PhD (at MIT) on html page templates from data 12:09:28 also can compress the audio first, whereas phone doesn't 12:09:48 -cwebber2 12:09:52 ben_thatmustbeme it felt like there was some kind of bursting going on 12:10:42 eprodrom, yeah, the audio does sound more... muddled, its definitely not as clear but it doesn't cut in and out 12:11:03 yeah sorry the mic is pointed the opposite direction of the people so you can see the screen 12:11:07 tim: there are levels of customizablity, default form, styled form, js-controlled form, etc 12:11:07 q- 12:11:07 ack elf-pavlik 12:12:09 sorry I seem to be having connection issues on my LAN 12:13:06 cwebber2, is that you? 12:14:00 bblfish has joined #social 12:14:21 deiu: can you please link to more info on what you say happening at MIT in this gh-issue? https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch/issues/1 12:14:47 elf-pavlik: I just created a big JSON fle and tried it locally 12:15:04 elf-pavlik: I am sure you can replicate the results on your browser :-) 12:15:07 Who is scribing? 12:15:25 i believe sandro was supposed to be scribe 12:15:27 q? 12:15:32 topic: Henry does Solid walkthrough on Private SHaring 12:15:34 https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/blob/master/UserStories/PrivateSharing.md 12:16:06 bblfish: Using webid-tls for access control, in this example 12:16:31 cwebber2` has joined #social 12:16:50 bblfish: So assume Ian has a WebID (a URI that identifies as him) 12:17:10 bblfish: I GET Ian's "card" 12:17:26 bblfish: link "acl" (not registed with IANA) 12:17:56 cwebber2 has joined #social 12:18:07 .. goes through various headers, eg for CORS 12:18:25 issue including topic of rel="acl" registration https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues/10 12:18:36 .. in this example I used turtle instead of JSON-LD, just because it was a little easier for me 12:18:48 what's the talky url again? 12:18:56 https://talky.io/socialwg 12:19:04 .. shows Ian's certificate 12:19:14 thx ben_thatmustbeme 12:19:36 .. using cert.pem for curl demo (browser does this automatically) 12:20:22 elf-pavlik: don't make an issue of rel=acl registration - just go add it to the rel registry yourself per http://microformats.org/wiki/existing-rel-values 12:20:55 s/ik:/ik,/ 12:21:08 tantek: i see not problem with you having your interpretation on that, but please note that other people interpret it differently 12:21:19 bblfish: Link header to acl resource 12:21:22 .. we GET it 12:21:33 we GET it, man! 12:21:38 s/tek:/tek,/ 12:21:40 elf-pavlik: not an interpretation - just a suggestion to you to help you take a productive step forward 12:21:53 s/k:/k, 12:22:03 s/lik:/lik,/ 12:22:51 bblfish: do a PATCH to add the new bit of access control 12:23:20 .. so the client software just allowed jane access 12:23:44 .. send notice to Jane 12:23:55 +??P4 12:24:12 Zakim, ??P4 is me 12:24:12 +cwebber2; got it 12:24:35 ben_thatmustbeme: intentionally muted 12:24:49 s/:/,/ 12:24:53 I got 3 hours of sleep between prepping user story details and waking up for this 12:24:58 I don't want to appear on webcam ;p 12:24:58 .. do a GET on her profile 12:25:04 but i'm on SIP now anyway 12:25:29 yes, i know, but it looked like the camera was just covered, not muted in talky 12:26:01 .. In the example, I show a proposed extension to GET, to include a query, being discussed in HTTP WG 12:26:06 Thanks aaronpk 12:26:26 +ben_thatmustbeme 12:26:27 Query link header proposal: https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD#reading-data-using-sparql 12:26:33 Zakim, mute me 12:26:33 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 12:26:54 yeah, i was losing talky sadly 12:27:06 aaronpk, should I try hosting talky? 12:27:27 sandro: This is off topic --- we don't need queries to make this user story work 12:27:30 k 12:27:32 bblfish: okay 12:28:53 bblfish: We get back a "ping" endpoint 12:29:20 bblfish: and you POST to that endpoint. *or* or use webmention 12:29:24 I think it's jumping the gun to say this is definitely WebMention 12:30:20 bblfish: I haven't yet looked at how webmention works 12:31:23 bblfish: the resource you POST to with ping should have ACLs such that you can post (append) but not read, except maybe you can edit the things you created. 12:31:37 tommorris_ has joined #social 12:32:35 bblfish: shows diagram, explaining bits..... 12:32:58 diagram has some typos apparently 12:33:03 q+ 12:34:05 ack eprodrom 12:34:32 hhalpin_ has joined #social 12:35:10 eprodrom: I like this flow, it's a lot like activity pump, except the client is responsible for making that ping (where in AP it'd be the server). With fanout issues, it's probably better handled by server. 12:35:40 q+ re: running bots on server which do client logic ... 12:35:42 +1 just fixing a URI namespace for microformats 12:35:55 bblfish: Yeah, it could be the server, or some non-client-agent. Although if we want a dumb server, we need and intelligent client. 12:36:24 eprodrom: LDP as stupid as possible? (stupid is good here. not business intelligence.) 12:36:40 LDP doesn't do much by design 12:37:07 q? 12:37:08 At this point I would keep the URIs at microformats.org rather than w3.org 12:37:10 q+ 12:37:13 LDP + social stuff 12:37:19 sandro: as simple as possible, but no simpler 12:37:25 exaxctly 12:37:34 s/exaxctly/exactly 12:37:36 timbl: as long as the added features are application-independent 12:37:45 ack elf-pavlik 12:37:45 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running bots on server which do client logic ... 12:38:11 elf-pavlik: different elements have different responsibilityies... Could have a daemon which does stuff. 12:38:14 elf-pavlik++ (similar to Apache modules) 12:38:17 elf-pavlik has 24 karma 12:39:53 sandro: it's still black and white to me --- certain things are the responsibility of the client or not. 12:40:22 Arnaud: solid (right now) puts a lot of responsibility on the client 12:40:46 q+ 12:41:17 ack hhalpin_ 12:41:36 Aha! 12:42:08 hhalpin: the LDP model is interesting, similar to unhosted in some ways, dependent on access control and auth, maybe 12:42:34 Interesting 12:43:00 hhalpin: If you had a server, please store any file, it's a problem 12:43:14 I disagree with hhalpin_ 12:43:14 hhalpin mentioned https://unhosted.org/ and briefly compared it to LDP 12:43:36 sandro: that's exactly the same with ActivityPump and MicroPub. You still need some identity and auth mechanism. 12:44:08 hhalpin: I think we should talk about TLS later today 12:44:10 you're right 12:44:50 sandro: I think they could each use each other's auth system 12:45:14 aaronpk: I think the access control is really similar, and orthogonal to this spec 12:45:29 ack deiu 12:45:33 Arnaud: any more about solid per se, before we get to overall similarities and differences 12:45:50 deiu: SoLiD is relatively new 12:45:55 q+ 12:46:11 are melvster's demos related? (that we have not yet seen) 12:46:28 AnnB, maybe we can do those demos in the demo session 12:46:34 q- 12:46:58 sandro: The LDP parts of SoLiD are stable and have lots of implementations, the other bits are very much subject to change and improvement 12:47:24 topic: Comparison of Proposals 12:47:59 Arnaud: maybe self-criticism 12:48:21 akuckartz: Maybe instead -- say what's good about the others 12:48:42 for the minutes..."What a great idea" 12:48:43 if we can get everyone authenticating to each other, that would be a really big step forward 12:49:24 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Comparison 12:49:29 ben_thatmustbeme, we can do that in a different WG though 12:49:40 as it doesn't only apply to Social 12:50:44 scribenick: rhiaro_ 12:51:04 deiu, true, I don't mean for the WG to deal with that, the socialwg is specifically avoiding choosing auth mechanism. but if we can get working those developing in the group i think will find it quite useful 12:51:08 aaronpk: micropub is only for writing. Complete picture includes webmention, PuSH and microformats 12:51:22 ben_thatmustbeme, I agree 12:51:37 ... We have lots working reasonably well, where there are holes are getting into propagating information about state changes of objects deep in the tree of comment threads or eg. likes on comments 12:51:47 ... we haven't built that stuff yet 12:51:47 aaronpk I think also access to the social graph (who follows Aaron? Who does Aaron follow?) 12:51:50 ... which is why I'm not sure about it 12:51:57 ... we want to figure out a better solution for that 12:52:03 And CRUD on profiles 12:52:07 eprodrom: we do *self* criticism :) 12:52:11 ... the way AS handles that is entirely reasonable, with activities essentially being a changelog of everything that happens 12:52:24 ... you can sync systems using changelog 12:52:40 elf-pavlik thanks very much 12:52:42 ... the way I figured this out was going through the story and seeing the edge cases. Seeing at a point in the story there isn't a solid answer 12:52:52 ... whereas just glancing at the story when we were voting it looked like we could do all of it 12:52:55 ... So that was the big one. 12:53:03 eprodrom, thats a matter of publishing that information as a xfn page really. I plan to start doing that soon... following is easy, followers not so easy unless following notifies 12:53:14 ben_thatmustbeme yes 12:53:34 ... The whole formencoding and namespacing of command params with mp- in micropub works for all use cases I've encountered, but I can see where ther eare limitations, we just haven't hit them in practice yet 12:53:42 ... maybe it's better to find a solution where we don't have those limitations in the first place 12:54:14 Arnaud: any reactions? 12:54:15 rhiaro_++ 12:54:17 rhiaro_ has 77 karma 12:54:17 elf-pavlik am I allowed to respond now? 12:54:25 aaronpk, i would say i started to hit at least annoyances with it for tagging people in locations in a photo 12:54:38 rhiaro++ 12:54:40 rhiaro has 78 karma 12:54:42 eprodrom, ActivityPump time now so your turn -- Tsyesika speaks ATM 12:54:58 Tsyesika: one thing micropub talked about is ability to get source, eg. markdown rather than html 12:55:00 rhiaro_, loqi knows to ignore _ at the end of a name 12:55:00 elf-pavlik ah, maybe my sarcasm wasn't clear enough 12:55:05 ... I'd love to introduce ability to get that source 12:55:11 ben_thatmustbeme: locations of person tags wasn't part of the story so I didn't include an example, but yes that's true 12:55:21 elf-pavlik I don't like being told to shut up 12:55:26 ... So ActivityPump doesn't have that 12:55:31 Undersood 12:55:39 s/Undersood/Understood/ 12:55:46 ... Other thing is no ability to have multiple file uploads 12:55:51 ... And multiple steps to upload one file 12:55:55 ... [plus metadata] 12:56:13 ... One of the biggest problems I have as a developer for activitypump is that audience targeting is always on the activity rather than the object 12:56:28 ... but in reality when you're checking someone's ability to access an object when they dereference it, you really need the audience targeting on the object 12:56:40 ... it's more useful on the object than the activity. Youc an get around it with some caching, but it's not great 12:56:44 q+ 12:57:07 ... has been pointed out that there is duplication regarding post and share activities with objects, but not sure how to get around that without fundamentally changing activitystreams - which I'm not against, but might bring other problems 12:57:21 ... Plus discoverability hasn't been cemented yet 12:58:31 I think having a "source" field on notes and etc would be really nice 12:58:44 various people: helping ann with whiteboard 12:58:45 would make editing my posts a lot easier when using pump clients that use markdown 12:58:47 Arnaud: anyone? 12:58:53 ack eprodrom 12:59:21 eprodrom: as part of ActivityPump spec (Jessica did a great job), I would point out that in the federation aspect it calls for using the NOTIFY verb 12:59:29 ... I'd really rather see that as a webhook style description mechanism 12:59:40 Is there an HTTP NOTIFY verb? 12:59:42 +q 12:59:45 ... Second, it has a number of activity types that are called out for how they change the state of the world 13:00:02 ... There should be some finer detail on what exactly happens when you unfollow, when there's a like, etc 13:00:27 ... Finally, to go back through and review the user stories and make sure the examples that we have (supported by pumpio) 13:00:34 Arnaud: more interested in big gaps that need filling 13:00:45 ... every technology can have open issues, but right nown we're more interested in bigger story 13:00:47 ack cwebber2 13:00:50 bblfish, only if you squint 13:00:53 ack cwebber 13:00:58 cwebber2: I agree with evan and jessica 13:01:02 bblfish: https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa142938%28v=exchg.65%29.aspx 13:01:09 ... One thing I admire about micropub is having a wide variety of implementations 13:01:11 That's the only reference I can find 13:01:15 oshepherd probably has more info 13:01:34 ... we have a good variety of implementations of clients, but for servers there are only pump.io and mediagoblin, mediagoblin only implements half the pump spec 13:01:44 ... with activitypump I'd like to see a spec that people *can* implement on the server side 13:02:01 cwebber2++ 13:02:04 cwebber2 has 29 karma 13:02:06 -q 13:02:10 q- 13:02:13 Tsyesika: to follow on, at lunch we [rhiaro, aaronpk, arnaud] talked about how the indieweb community have split their specs up, and it feels easier to implement 13:02:18 aaronpk: it lets you make incremental progress 13:02:26 http://indiewebcamp.com/IndieMark 13:02:37 Tsyesika: with activitypump it's like you're either compliant with the spec or not, adn it's a lot of work to get that done 13:03:09 ... someone coming along wanting to make their site activitypump compliant would have a much harder time than getting started with indieweb 13:03:19 ... I don't have it on my personal site 13:03:25 hhalpin: can you explain why? 13:03:33 I don't think it's a "personal site" kind of API 13:03:38 It's a "social network engine" API 13:03:50 Tsyesika: it's one big spec and it can takek time to implement it all, and it's changing a lot. It's a big investment to do it all at once, then change it 13:04:00 eprodrom, you're saying my personal website can't participate in a social network? 13:04:27 arnaud: something fundamental that makes it impossible to do it this way in activitypump? 13:04:31 Tsyesika: no, we can break it down 13:04:40 it has to be able to, a personal site is a network of 1 13:04:41 ... also NOTIFY is probably going to be dropped 13:04:42 aaronpk, nope 13:05:02 bblfish: don't want to hear sandro speak, don't need to push him to be negative about SoLiD. It means more if I'm negative, as a big defender 13:05:15 eprodrom, well, I think maybe with sufficient library'ification of activitypump 13:05:23 ... Implementing is very important, that's where indieweb community is great 13:05:24 we can hit a lot more of the "easy to implement" side of things 13:05:29 cwebber2, right 13:05:29 ... SoLiD have to learn to create communities too 13:05:32 eprodrom: i agree it's more oreiented to social network software and being a platform and such but also i think it's useful to be able to implement parts of the spec 13:05:52 Tsyesika, sure, but I'd have a hard time dividing it into pieces 13:05:52 ... Also AS and pump work is interesting, seems like there can be a mapping to solid 13:06:05 activitypump is not quite SSL in difficulty to implement, but similarly, having some good libraries like that can make things much nicer 13:06:08 Also, I think the kind of person who'd be implementing would be doing it for e.g. Diaspora 13:06:17 cwebber2, but you also have to make it really easy for other people to create libraries because you're not gonna want ot write libraries in every language 13:06:25 aaronpk, I agree 13:06:32 q+ to bash SoLiD a bit 13:06:41 eprodrom: i agree, it'd be tricky, i'm not sure how i'd do it to be honest but it's something i like from the indieweb and it's maybe a good idea to look into if here is anything we could do 13:06:53 but yes we want this to work for the diasporas, facebooks, etc. of the world 13:06:54 aaronpk, I think that the activitypump spec is quite implementable as a library, but it also requires that we put more code into it 13:07:00 ... LDP is harder to implement 13:07:25 ... Once the server is done, it's done for everybody 13:07:30 aaronpk, another thing is until MediaGoblin implemented the pump api, nobody else had done that work. I think we should see if we can share our experieences to make it clearer to implement 13:07:32 ... on the client side there's lots of JS and rdf libraries needed 13:07:47 ... it's more theoretical infrastructure 13:07:48 cwebber2, eprodrom, Tsyesika, I would be interested to see what activitypump would look like broken out into small implementable steps, like what if someone could just create their inbox but wait to implement an outbox 13:08:01 I'm interested in seeing what that would look like! 13:08:03 i'm not sure how it'd look but i think it'd be good to look into 13:08:07 aaronpk ^^ 13:08:30 ... Could do work on notifications that people want in social communities 13:08:36 Yeah, so, there are ~5 endpoints defined in the activity pump doc 13:08:51 Maybe more if you count CRUD on user profiles and created objects 13:08:57 That feels pretty minimal 13:09:11 ... To give more responsibility to the server 13:09:17 ... Let server act as a client 13:09:31 eprodrom, also I'd say that a lot of the work Tsyesika is spending time on is changing the database to support migrations 13:09:37 ack deiu 13:09:37 deiu, you wanted to bash SoLiD a bit 13:09:37 and I'm not sure how you can get around that complication 13:09:39 er 13:09:40 eprodrom, i would feel better about that if it has been demonstrated that it's pretty mininal 13:09:41 to support federation 13:09:45 cwebber2: sure which isn't nesseserly anything to do with specs tho 13:09:50 it's just legancy infrastructure 13:09:52 yeah 13:09:53 however! 13:09:55 deiu: SoLiD by definition is very generic 13:09:57 we *can* make it easier 13:09:57 Migrating from one server to another? 13:10:01 by sharing information on how we got there 13:10:02 That's such a hard problem 13:10:04 eprodrom, no, not that 13:10:06 ... it has a different view of what social means to indieweb and activitypump 13:10:11 ... especially in terms of notifications 13:10:14 eprodrom, migrations as in "sql schema migrations" 13:10:16 eprodrom: moving a database from a design not intended for federation 13:10:18 Right 13:10:19 upgrading the table structure 13:10:19 to a database which is 13:10:22 ... it's less focused on this definition of social, it's a bit difficult to implement the same user stories 13:10:37 ... This translates in a lot of clientside javascript 13:10:48 ... as opposed to indieweb where a lot of logic happens in the server 13:10:54 ... pages clients see are less heavy 13:11:01 ... for SoLiD there are bandwidth requirements you have to meet in the client 13:11:08 ... there's also this high-percieved learning curve 13:11:24 ... develoeprs are used to implementing apis, whereas we have a different way of managing data 13:11:32 eprodrom: i'm going to try and find some to implement a spec complient version of activitypump and i'll see what the pain points are 13:11:33 ... I think that's the biggest difference 13:11:46 ... I think it's a perceived learning curve, it's not that big a deal 13:11:50 eprodrom, anyway, I think some documents showing how to plan your database from day 1 (the easiest route!) or how to upgrade an existing system will help other developers with adoption 13:11:53 Tsyesika maybe we could work on it together 13:11:59 yes 13:12:02 Tsyesika I want to try a new Go project 13:12:09 arnaud: this touches the point about whether you post the activity and the server creates the post or vice versa 13:12:17 Or if you have another language you'd like to try 13:12:20 ... an activity or object centric view of the world 13:12:22 eprodrom, let's write it in guile ;) 13:12:23 deiu: we have a data view of the world 13:12:25 just to clarify i said you can use CRUD on existing objects nt to create new objects 13:12:27 arnaud: more generic 13:12:29 cwebber2 cool here 13:12:34 *not 13:12:44 deiu: on the plus side, if tomorrow there's going to be a completely different working group with different use cases, we might be able to help them as well 13:12:48 arnaud: it's more flexible in that respect 13:12:57 eprodrom: sure i don't have any Go experiance 13:13:03 Tsyesika me either 13:13:08 eprodrom, Tsyesika is also learning scheme 13:13:13 Oh, cool 13:13:14 well 13:13:17 bblfish: I think we've got a set of communities that represent a learning curve that come to a full blow generalisable version of SoLiD (?) 13:13:19 We could do it in Scheme 13:13:19 now we can make a truly ivory tower version of federation ;) 13:13:22 i've played with it on the side :) 13:13:27 ... we're all doign prety much the same thing 13:13:33 "learning" is maybe too stronger word 13:13:41 eprodrom, one of our Solid servers is written in Go 13:13:45 ... requirements seem to be on one end of the spectrum, minimal technology, to the other side with maximal generality 13:13:49 deiu, cool 13:13:57 ... we can all learn from each other 13:14:07 I think this has bee a good exercise, sandro ! 13:14:08 q+ 13:14:08 AnnB: tim or sandro? or melster? 13:14:12 eprodrom, I wonder if you could fork it to add the pump API 13:14:14 s/melster/melvster 13:14:27 deiu, it would be an interesting exercise 13:14:30 q? 13:14:31 melvster: I was a semantic web skeptic 13:14:38 ... perceived learning curve as andrei mentioned 13:15:00 ... spent a year looking at it, adn by the end realised I could have learned it in less time, it's conceptually quite simple 13:15:09 AnnB: Negative comment on solid? 13:15:20 Tsyesika, cwebber2, how about building an activitypump api and launch on your own websites? :) 13:15:22 q+ re: to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility 13:15:23 melvster: compared to indieweb for example or ostatus, activitypump ecosystems, it's not as far advanced in terms of community 13:15:31 q- re: 13:15:35 ... it's not as far advanced in terms of developers or users 13:15:36 it's early 13:15:36 q+ to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility 13:15:44 aaronpk, that's really a great idea 13:15:46 aaronpk, yes I'd like to do that 13:15:54 But I'd like to have a proof-of-concept first 13:16:01 i fully intend to use whatever i make on my website 13:16:03 ... It's hard to document, hard to get across that it's simpler than the percieved learning curve 13:16:03 ack akuckartz 13:16:07 eprodrom, something I've thought of 13:16:10 i/we 13:16:11 Tsyesika, also 13:16:19 maybe making something like a "Disqus" for activitypump 13:16:27 I got interested in this when I realized the endpoints can point off-server 13:16:33 heh 13:16:34 so static publishing people can have a federation panel still 13:16:49 Yeah that's pretty cool 13:17:16 akuckartz: you have to get in and understand what linked data is about. I'm pretty sure ibm, boeing, would be abel to do that. People who don't have those resources - is it possible to modify or restrict the proposal for SoLiD so that the implementation curve is reduced? 13:17:25 ... with the purpose of making it easy for others 13:17:29 Why? 13:17:31 q+ to suggest we rename SoLiD 13:17:35 I mean, why would I have to do that? 13:17:39 q+ 13:17:39 ... who never dealt with semantic web, to adopt spec 13:17:53 cwebber2, eprodrom, thats exactly what tantek was talking about last F2F with the desire to always support static sites 13:17:57 If I understand JSON-LD, why do I have to do my Semantic Web meditation training 13:17:59 ? 13:18:10 ben_thatmustbeme, yes, it took me a while to understand what that meant 13:18:10 ack elf-pavlik 13:18:10 elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility 13:18:15 imho, you don't eprodrom 13:18:15 q+ 13:18:21 ben_thatmustbeme, but when I got it I got kind of excited about how to do it with activitypump 13:18:21 sandro, I don't think so either 13:18:24 hence my post about it to the list 13:18:27 elf-pavlik: I'd like to propose discussion about evolution of APIs, especially breaking changes 13:18:38 ... power of web by showing opening an old webpage in a modern browser 13:18:44 q+ tim 13:18:53 timbl has joined #social 13:19:03 melvster_ has joined #social 13:19:05 ... could analyse apis this way, how they could be broken by certain design choices 13:19:08 ... how to avoid this in future 13:19:15 q- 13:19:37 ack deiu 13:19:37 deiu, you wanted to suggest we rename SoLiD 13:19:43 deiu: maybe SoLiD was not the right name for this spec 13:20:04 ... We should remove the parts of the spec that aren't relevant to the workign group from the spec 13:20:14 ... we started writing the spec with a state of mind in which we wanted to document the whole thing that we were doing 13:20:17 ... that's too much at this point, for this group 13:20:22 ack hhalpin_ 13:20:30 hhalpin: when we were writing the charter we knew we were going to have something liek this problem 13:20:38 deiu has 5 karma 13:20:40 ... most of the world using json based apis 13:20:45 ... this could change next year, I find it unlikely 13:21:09 ... the microformat html based approach has advantages, but we didnt' write this in the charter because most people want to ship around json not html 13:21:15 ... and we want to be open to enterprise use cases 13:21:22 ... we thought we'd have more enterprise membership to the group 13:21:30 ... but that's changed, we have a much more open sourced, hacker based community 13:21:39 ... on that basis, I could see revisiting json as charter requirement 13:22:04 ... in terms of rdf communities, the amount of people using json and html vs json-ld is smaller 13:22:09 ... using RDF is powerful for people who want it 13:22:17 ... I'd be concerned if we did an rdf *only* spec 13:22:27 ... json-ld was trying to fix that 13:22:46 ... I wasn't thinking about html microformats case when writing the charter 13:22:57 ... microformats2 does have json version, we could massage something there 13:23:06 ... I'm hoping json-ld plus parsing html could bridge these communities 13:23:20 ... the goal of any decentralised social web should be to bridge, we don't want three decentralised silos 13:23:25 q? 13:23:42 ... ideally we don't want three different standards, we want one standard that allows the different networks and different communities to do what they want with rich communication 13:23:49 ... I'm hoping URI extensibility will help with this 13:23:56 q+ to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding 13:24:00 ... Charter isn't written in stone, but when I was writing it this is what I was seeing 13:24:03 _1 13:24:06 +1 I mean 13:24:07 ... there are a number of high level things that are the same 13:24:11 ack tim 13:24:18 q+ 13:24:22 timbl: Feeling of deja vu 13:24:29 ... back in the xml days... json is the new xml 13:24:37 ... the xml and rdf communities were born at about the same time 13:24:41 Poor rhiaro_ 13:24:47 ... everyoen was commiteed to xml, and rdf should be as xml like as possible 13:24:50 ... that was a massive mistake 13:24:50 rhiaro++ 13:24:53 rhiaro has 79 karma 13:24:54 ... rdf is simpler than xml 13:25:02 ... by trying to make an xml syntax it was horrible 13:25:06 ... should have used turtle originally 13:25:06 Actually timbl is being pretty slow-paced right now 13:25:13 ... a few companies have had similar experience 13:25:23 ... a guy said he wasted three years looking at rdf through xml glasses 13:25:34 ... so json is just a shoe-in for xml 13:25:52 ... incentive because it's used in javascript 13:26:04 ... you can't address things within a json document 13:26:07 ... something about blank nodes 13:26:19 q- hhalpin 13:26:23 ... json is interesting, and helping people get from one to the other is interesting, but potentially counterproductive, I'm torn 13:26:29 ... try A/B 13:26:46 ... take one set of developers and give them a json world, and another set who forget json and think about core rdf model 13:26:52 ... think about that, send turtle across the wire 13:27:01 ... and you'll find yourself empowered because yoru life is simpler 13:27:07 ... can merge data streams by concatenating files 13:27:21 ... you can build any application on LDP without the store having to know anything about it 13:27:25 ... they are different philosophies 13:27:35 ... we're desinging new stuff 13:27:44 ... the number of people using json at the moment is in some ways totally irrelevant 13:27:53 ... there is ane xcited turtle community 13:28:02 q+ 13:28:05 ... we should provide something that does not require json 13:28:09 ... and allow turtle directly 13:28:48 arnaud: I can see there are differences that could be easily accommodated between different approaches, and combined 13:28:56 ... like content negotiation, format of data can be accommodated 13:29:02 ... solutions that support several different formats 13:29:08 ... some differences are harder to accommodate 13:29:14 ... some that use a single entry points, some more restful 13:29:21 ... this is harder, you go one way or the other 13:29:47 ... aaron and jessica acknowleged some of the other stuff can be used to learn from 13:29:53 ... there are poitns of convergance we can identify 13:30:03 ack sandro 13:30:03 sandro, you wanted to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding 13:30:31 q+ 13:30:37 sandro: I think having an implicit (or explicit) json-ld context, basically we can get form encoding and microformats to be json-ld 13:30:43 ... they're really close 13:30:49 My hope is that JSON-LD could basically, with some auto-conversion on server or client side, could be the lingua franca. 13:30:54 ... then we're down to vocabulary mapping question 13:31:02 ... they're different vocabularies 13:31:03 Vocabulary mapping can be worked out, they are not super-different 13:31:11 ... hoping one community could switch 13:31:17 ... no idea what politics of that are 13:31:18 There seems general consensus around a HTTP REST model. 13:31:36 getting those vocabulary difference documented would be a good step on that 13:31:37 ... Big thing about static sites being different wrt being restulf 13:31:51 ... but you could say a static site is like restful funnelled through one endpoint 13:32:00 ... if you don't do that, you can go through individual URIs 13:32:07 ... discover of that could be painful, but may be worth while 13:32:26 ... Also, seems like ActivityStreams is sending across changes in an application specific way 13:32:32 ... in the end SoLiD don't have a way to do this 13:32:49 ... but we've talked about it having an application non-specific ways to send changes 13:32:52 ... like a diff stream 13:33:00 ... don't care what kind of data, just want changes to any kind of data 13:33:06 ... my inclination is towards the generic one 13:33:23 ... curious, people who work on ActivityStreams can they consider giving up on terms like Like 13:33:33 ?? 13:33:34 ... why do you want to explicitly like something rather than just say you changed some data 13:33:40 ben_thatmustbeme, yes all of us 13:33:45 Since we're publishing it as a spec 13:34:17 ack eprodrom 13:34:19 arnaud: more powerful, but harder to get there 13:34:34 eprodrom, I'll take a stab at AS for our apps 13:34:57 eprodrom, you mean all pump.io group? indieweb has not yet really found AS2.0 to be useful, as the different philosophy of everything is a post. but I'm thinking it makes a lot more sense in the notifications sense 13:35:02 eprodrom: addressing harry's point. If you look at these three systems, if you take something like solid and remove webid requirement, add specific containers that are related to each user (folllowing, followers, favourites, ..) and you require some server side behaviour, you've got activitypump 13:35:24 ... if you favour activitystreams as main vocab and favour json-ld serialization 13:35:26 ... they are very close 13:35:32 ... the outlier is micropub 13:35:49 ... micropub is going to survive regardless 13:36:02 ... but we could do something like activitypump informed by SoLiD design 13:36:21 ... and suggest micropub as a social api for (??) 13:36:23 eprodrom, didn't mean to interrupt you, was just finishing my thought. 13:36:25 ... we canc ome out with two specs 13:36:29 arnaud: I think evan jumped the gun 13:36:32 q? 13:36:54 eprodrom: I'd rather not describe our group as three different camps 13:36:54 q+ to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets 13:36:56 ... in competition 13:36:59 q? 13:37:00 ... we have to ship something 13:37:15 ... I'm not sure a competitive framework it he one we should be working 13:37:19 I'm not so sure micropub is all that fundermentally different, after talking to aaronpk more these two days and looking at amy's work it looks like there could be some resolve a lot of our "differences" 13:37:29 Right -- we all have pretty much the SAME GOAL 13:37:59 ... whatever group decides, I'll hold my nose and get it done, but won't necessarily like it 13:38:08 ack hhalpin 13:38:11 Tsyesika, i'm very interested to hear your thoughts on that. 13:38:22 hhalpin: we weren't hoping on staying competitive 13:38:37 ... that was to force peopel to compare each other to find commanalities and differences 13:38:41 ... we're at the point where we can solve some of them 13:38:58 ... we're clearly seeing some convergance 13:39:11 ... hoping json-ld can be converted into mf or turtle 13:39:13 theoretically if we did switch micropub to json instead of form encoded, likely as some other version of MP, how much would that change usability by the other communities? 13:39:25 ... the devil is in the detail of vocabulary alignments, link headers etc 13:39:38 ??? 13:39:43 ... In terms of what evan said about indieweb, worth noting that indiewb has the most grassroots developer adoption 13:39:45 hhalpin_: can you justify that? 13:39:57 s/_:/_,/ 13:40:06 ... One of the critques when we started this group is that w3c has tendancy to be overly complicated and drive away developers 13:40:07 AnnB has joined #social 13:40:10 We have hundreds of thousands of users on pump.io 13:40:11 ... So how can we simplify what everyone is doing 13:40:16 ack melvster_ 13:40:32 melvster: we had this group a few years ago run by RMS called GNU consensus 13:40:35 I count well less that 100 using indieweb 13:40:40 ... idea was to get social web componants to talk to each other 13:40:52 ben_thatmustbeme in response, no, I mean the social web wg 13:40:57 ... tried to condense to 'hello world' use case, but it failed because no social web groups would talk to any others 13:41:05 ... now we've seen we've all solved similar use cases 13:41:14 ... can we get all groups to focus on a minimal use case to talk to each other 13:41:26 eprodrom, be what about number of implementations? I think that's IWC's claim. 13:41:30 hhaplin: we already have use cases 13:41:37 melvster: for test suite 13:41:42 aaronpk: that was the goal of creating SWAT0 13:41:48 sandro, yes, and if we go by whether a spec has odd or even number of characters in it, I think SoLiD wins there 13:41:57 hhaplin: ideal situation we have api and common data format and we use that for common use cases 13:42:00 melvster: can we test it? 13:42:02 hhalpin: yes we will 13:42:11 arnaud: part of the process is creating a test suite and showing interop 13:42:20 melvster: by the next f2f? 13:42:31 sandro, although I think we might have more pump.io clients than there are implementations of the indieweb stuff 13:42:34 sandro, https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/wiki/Clients 13:42:37 bblfish: we should implement these stories 13:42:54 Really? 13:43:04 hhalpin: goal of standardisation workgroup is to produce a standard, not to have a nice time and learn from each other 13:43:20 ... if we produce a standard we fail, or produce a standard with low adoption or contradictory standards, also fail 13:43:34 ack elf-pavlik 13:43:34 elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets 13:43:35 arnaud: we're nowhere near there yet 13:43:48 elf-pavlik: we haven't moved much on querying or accessing data 13:43:56 ... evan mentioned with indieweb you can't get social graph and relationships 13:44:09 ... from the resulting data, we can derive requirements of api 13:44:17 ... with linked data, by following your nose you do it in the same way 13:44:21 Is there a Zakim or tally room? 13:44:22 ... could be some interesting ways of approach resulting dataset 13:44:28 It can work, we have seen this with WebCrypto where we got every browser implementing the same crypto API despite underlying differences (NextGen Crypto API, NSS, ec.) 13:44:31 ... then find some common ground 13:44:43 arnaud: break until the hour 13:45:03 -INRIA 13:45:04 eprodrom, huh? perhaps i should rephrase, how many have actually implemented and are publishing an AS2.0 stream 13:45:24 ben_thatmustbeme, to what point? 13:45:26 ben_thatmustbeme, the spec isn't even out yet 13:45:32 That it doesn't matter because it's not implemented? 13:45:38 We're publishing it. It's our job to ship it. 13:45:44 zakim, who's on the phone? 13:45:44 On the phone I see ??P2, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted) 13:45:54 bblfish has joined #social 13:46:02 I sould assume we will be implement AS2.0 13:46:06 It's ridiculous that we'd turn up our nose at the spec that we are producing and saying it's not good enough because it's not implemented. 13:46:08 if we don't, we should not ship it as a spec 13:46:15 Or we should fix it 13:46:17 However, it's still quite early 13:46:32 eprodrom, indieweb philosophy is to work out an implementation that works, then spec around it. I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying implment it too 13:46:33 I think we will have a problem if in a year from now there aren't AS2.0 implementations 13:46:49 ben_thatmustbeme, right, I understand that. 13:46:51 before the spec is done, because you will never have a spec finished unless you start implementing 13:46:59 ben_thatmustbeme, I totally agree 13:47:00 Re the indieweb approach, I tend to agree 13:47:38 On the other hand, I don't like to implement things multiple times 13:47:43 i was just trying to see who is publishing as2.0 streams NOW, as they can better make statements about where it is and isn't useful 13:48:05 I especially don't like to put my users through a lot of incompatibility pain 13:48:30 "Sorry, I implemented an intermediate version of the spec, now all your feeds are broken." 13:48:30 eprodrom, doesn't mean it has to be on a large system, but you still need some sort of system to test it 13:48:36 ben_thatmustbeme, I agree 13:49:11 direct question, do you have a published intermediate version of an AS2.0 stream? that I can right now try to consume 13:49:20 No I do not 13:49:30 But there are test versions in the test repo 13:49:36 Which might be good for you to start with 13:50:09 okay, so If i start playing with implementations, I'm not looking at anything else. So I may end up with a lot of suggestions for changes on the MF2 version of it 13:50:44 sandro, blunt question 13:51:05 Is SoLiD just CrossCloud rebranded? 13:51:10 The name slipped earlier 13:51:27 I don't think that's a bad thing but I'm kind of confused by the whole 'keep it general for all kinds of apps' thing 13:51:48 I reallllly think CrossCloud is a great idea 13:52:17 +[IPcaller] 13:52:52 general question that i asked and i didn't see any response... if I wrote a MP client that posted with json data instead of form encoded, would that be more interesting to compatibility building? what would still be lacking? argue points better or worse, etc 13:53:27 zakim, call inria-bridge 13:53:27 ok, Arnaud; the call is being made 13:53:29 +Inria 13:53:42 Neat 13:53:56 I'm OK 13:53:59 Just a lot of beeps 13:54:01 -[IPcaller] 13:54:10 we had to reconnect the bridges 13:54:14 we're on a break 13:54:17 ben_thatmustbeme: We are still having a break. 13:54:23 Yes 13:54:27 Arnaud, yes 13:54:29 ok 13:54:34 thanks 13:54:35 Thank you 14:09:04 eprodrom: i'll try and get these issues worked through and then we should work on a basic implementation 14:09:34 makes no sense with all those open issues 14:09:50 bblfish has joined #social 14:10:35 q? 14:11:01 I'm interested in collaborating on a basic implementation, and am flexible on what language 14:11:08 as long as not php ;) 14:11:16 i'm flexable on language too 14:11:25 but it looks like the issues on it atm will cause a big chnge 14:11:27 *change 14:11:44 if eprodrom wants to try out go it's all good for me 14:11:46 did we get a scribe yet? 14:12:16 Tsyesika: let's see how the conversation goes today 14:12:26 Topic: next meetnig 14:12:40 okay 14:12:57 Arnaud: advantages of continuing next week is that we should keep the momentum 14:12:58 Agreed 14:13:02 whiteboard photo: http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/whiteboard-20150505-161246.jpg 14:13:04 scribenick: bblfish 14:13:17 Nice handwriting 14:13:43 Arnaud: we could have a debriefing meeting next week 14:14:02 Arnaud: anyone objects to not canceling next meeting? 14:14:10 Resolve: Continue next week 14:14:20 RESOLUTION: Continue next week 14:14:45 aaronpk++ 14:14:47 aaronpk has 796 karma 14:15:01 q+ to talk about authentication in the APIs 14:15:02 Thanks for the whiteboard photo 14:15:09 Arnaud: severaly way we could imagine resolving the differences. We should discuss the strategy 14:15:10 1+ 14:15:11 q+ 14:15:27 Arnaud: we could just continue resolving issues 14:15:45 q+ to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories 14:15:50 better photo: http://aaronparecki.com/uploads/whiteboard-20150505-161540.jpg 14:16:03 Arnaud: or we could just bite the bullet and go from there. 14:16:17 AnnB has joined #social 14:16:17 ack aaronpk 14:16:17 aaronpk, you wanted to talk about authentication in the APIs 14:16:19 q+ 14:17:02 aaronpk: differences between our API and jessica, we could arrive at a compromise and explore that possibility. WE need to look at this more. We now can see how things are similar and different 14:17:49 aaronpk: also we could make a point about authentication: it appears that all three APIs use verifiers with tokens, we could leave the way to get the token out of the API, and leave that for the next API. 14:18:31 http://self-issued.info/docs/draft-ietf-oauth-v2-bearer.html ? 14:18:35 hhalpin has joined #social 14:18:37 q+ 14:19:25 rhiaro++ 14:19:27 rhiaro has 80 karma 14:19:55 aaronpk: I was surprised to see a lot of convergence 14:20:01 commonground++ 14:20:02 commonground has 1 karma 14:20:03 ack bblfish 14:20:09 that's the reason to have F2F meetings! 14:20:24 note, sandro just indicate he sees common ground between SoLiD and micropub 14:20:29 so that's the full triangle :D 14:20:30 bblfish: to common ground seams to be notion of container and posting to containers 14:20:35 people work stuff out more easily when actually in person ... not to mention with pizza, sushi, wine, beer ... 14:20:52 triangles are the strongest foundation 14:20:53 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Comparison#Endpoint 14:21:06 bblfish: also some use POST everything 14:21:13 ... maybe some mapping would allow finding common ground 14:21:34 convergence++ 14:21:36 convergence has 1 karma 14:22:07 ... i see common understanding that thanks to JSON-LD we can think in RDF level and still people can use it as plain JSON 14:22:48 ... one can consider AS2.0 as cristalization of RDF (rel to article bblfish wrote year ago) 14:23:01 https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/entry/crystalizing_rdf 14:23:19 bblfish: we should automatically find a way to produce it on LDP servers 14:23:34 full_triangle++ 14:23:36 full_triangle has 1 karma 14:23:55 ... i can with my tools in very generic way and at the same time people who don't want to use those tools (yet) they can still interoperate 14:24:02 ack elf-pavlik 14:24:02 elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories 14:24:30 I mentioned RDF: crystalisation here: https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/entry/crystalizing_rdf 14:25:09 ack eprodrom 14:25:19 elf-pavlik: we should write implementations of the top uses cases and get feedback by doing that. 14:25:56 evanpro: i feel like we're stretching the amount of time we're getting out of this community to begin with, the idea that we'd write multiple implmenenations for hte contiually iterating different standards, and spend time evallutaing them and figuring it out... 14:26:04 evanpro: i'd rather put that time towards a single standard 14:26:08 +1' 14:26:11 ... rather than splitting that time among multiple standards 14:26:22 ... i'm not sure this convergence is going to get easier 14:26:33 ok 14:26:43 ... i feel like we've already put off this decision once, we need to start coming down to what the social apis are going to be if expect to ship it by the end of the year 14:27:01 ... i'm sure that our friends here on w3c staff are optimistic about having our charter renewed 14:27:03 Isn't that a bit premature? 14:27:12 ... i'm not sure i have the mental capacity to continue doing this if we never actually come out with results 14:27:24 evanpro: we need to bite the bullet fast, or else the charter can be completed 14:27:35 Don't we have 20 months left? 14:27:39 ... my feeling is there is some urgancy, we probably need to make some tough decisions 14:27:39 s/can/cannot/ 14:27:51 Arnaud: we are not expiring at the end of this year, at the end of 2016 14:28:00 Thanks for the correction 14:28:00 ... i agree we don't want to waste time, but it's also not as critical as you just described 14:28:02 Yes, 2016 14:28:03 http://www.w3.org/2013/socialweb/social-wg-charter 14:28:13 ... to have a recommendation by the end of next year, we better have a solid proposal by the end of this year 14:28:25 ... there's still a lot of work 14:28:36 .... i agree by the end of this year we'd beter have a good idea of what this looks like 14:28:37 q? 14:28:37 q? 14:28:43 ack hhalpin 14:28:49 q+ to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation 14:29:13 hhalpin: next steps: from each of the three communities, we should choose an author from each comunity 14:29:20 ... to help filter to an editor a draft editor 14:29:28 ... or two editors, who is neutral, not in any of the camps 14:29:36 ... to try to push a converged document out 14:29:39 ack elf-pavlik 14:29:39 elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation 14:29:41 @hhalpin wants to operationalise what evan said. Next step: from the three communities we should choose an author from each community one or two draft editors, to push a draft document out to see if we can get consensus 14:30:09 elf-pavlik: it seems that some of the candidates addressed federation 14:30:22 @elf-pavlik the federation may be part of the API so it may not be that much work 14:30:24 hhalpin: we probably won't be able to include federation 14:30:32 Arnaud: or maybe we'll have it beacuse it's built in 14:31:20 @hhalpin one author: the author writes a lot of the text, and the editors does ? 14:31:53 hhalpin: you need at least one neutral person who doesn't really care to help balance out arguments that arise 14:32:08 AnnB: the reason i'm asking is after dec 11 i'm free, and i'm a good editor 14:32:28 Arnaud: to get back to the point, the proponents seem to be in agreement to give people a bit more time to choose a starting point, to experiment a bit further 14:32:34 JSON-LD has the author/editor distinction - http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/ 14:32:37 q+ 14:32:46 ... i'm in favor of doing this , because i rather we start with a more constricted approach rather than saying so and so is winning 14:32:47 I will not have time before I leave Boeing ... but can probably help edit after I leave 14:32:49 Or just all editors, but we need at least one neutral person in case there are severe disagreements 14:32:57 Also, we need to see what the implementation commits are 14:33:07 ... there is value in holding off for a little more 14:33:12 q+ 14:33:16 q+ 14:33:19 ack akuckartz 14:33:20 q+ 14:33:32 @Arnaud prefer to work towards a more constructive approach, so there is value to holding off a little bit more. Agree that it is unrealistic to have everybody make three implementations. 14:33:33 akuckartz: would it be possible to start with writing what is accepted as common ground? 14:33:45 @akuckartz would it help to work out what the common ground is ? 14:33:55 q+ to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F 14:33:59 pfefferle has joined #social 14:34:25 I have to go... headed to the ER 14:34:26 elf-pavlik: do any of these proposals not do that? 14:34:34 Or is that just a point of commonality? 14:34:34 how about rhiaro? :) 14:34:39 AnnB: what about making an outline? fill in the bits that are known now 14:34:41 these kids don't want to stay in her 14:34:43 rhiaro_++ 14:34:45 rhiaro_ has 81 karma 14:34:57 akuckartz: maybe start with a wiki page and collect the common ground 14:35:00 +1 rhiaro if she would like to take on this challenge 14:35:02 ack sandro 14:35:27 sandro: i dont think the editors need to be neutral, they just need to be enthusiastic about whatever happens 14:35:49 @sandro: don't think that the editors need to be neurtal, but they need to be enthusiastic about what happens. They have to do what the working group decides 14:35:56 ben_thatmustbeme WOW! Go do that! 14:36:05 yeah, so I'm off 14:36:14 ben_thatmustbeme, wow, good luck! 14:36:16 ben_thatmustbeme It's gonna be great!!!! 14:36:18 q+ 14:36:30 ... how do we handle syntaxes. 14:36:51 HTTP REST(ish), common vocabulary (re microformats and ActivityVocab), and fix the HTTP headers so they are common 14:37:07 ack aaronpk 14:37:20 @Arnaud if there are issues that can be expressed independently of the implementation, that can be addressed 14:37:38 concrete steps with deadlines++ 14:37:40 could we have a prototypes deadline? 14:37:46 yes 14:38:21 +??P7 14:38:26 @aaronpk to avoid the issue of endless postponing lets have some deadlines 14:38:35 Zakim, ??P7 is me 14:38:35 +bret; got it 14:38:38 Zakim, mute me 14:38:38 bret should now be muted 14:39:04 ack eprodrom 14:39:10 q? 14:39:35 evanpro: what i'd like to get an idea of is what we think would be some changes in the state of the WG now that would show us that we're movign forward 14:39:36 +q 14:39:42 eprodrom: what would be some changes to the state of the working group that would show us moving forward. 14:39:53 ...? 14:40:02 .. concerned about jessica not having time to keep editing the AP doc 14:40:14 .. or the solid people drop out because there's a new version of java it can't run on 14:40:14 java? 14:40:26 ... what are the changes that happen that we get going further? 14:40:27 .. i'm more cocerned about what are the change that happen that make us sure we're going further 14:40:29 q+ 14:40:52 .. i'm not sure there's a clear positive way forward, is it that we create a SoLiD/actvitypump/micropub spec? 14:41:09 .. is it we find something that's the olowest common demoninator (which right now HTTP) 14:41:19 .. what will the change be next time we sit down in japan 14:41:21 .. I don't know that there is a clear way forward? Is that we create a spec with the lowest common denominator which I think is HTTP at present. How do we see the way forward? 14:41:26 q+ 14:41:29 .. the only change i see that is likely is that we lose members and lose interest 14:41:32 q- 14:41:38 Arnaud: maybe we have different perceptions 14:41:38 .. the only change I see is likely is that we loose members and move forward 14:41:45 .. because you're missing out on being at the meetingand at lunch 14:41:54 .. my feeling is there's a lot of common ground and recognizing this and seing ways of converging 14:41:55 q+ to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator 14:41:56 It's come through that people care a *lot* this last couple of days 14:42:08 Hopefully we're past worrying about falling apart now! 14:42:20 Generate 3 specs and let the best spec win? ;) 14:42:24 .. we can use every week to say how's that going 14:42:25 setting a deadline on that checkpoint is a good idea 14:42:33 @bret bad idea ... 14:42:35 .. it's a bit pessmiistec right now to say we're going to waste time and lose members 14:42:41 ack elf-pavlik 14:42:41 elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F 14:42:42 q? 14:42:51 elf-pavlik: i'll try to experiment with different workflows to work between telecons 14:42:57 .. i see github and irc very practical 14:43:03 https://github.com/w3c-social/social-arch 14:43:14 .. also for writing the document, trying to capture following the nose idea 14:43:32 -bret 14:43:42 ack lost connection :( 14:43:52 aww, cheer up 14:43:56 ack hhalpin 14:43:57 Arnaud: we're quickly running out of time 14:44:01 -ben_thatmustbeme 14:44:11 hhalpin: one way to focus the group would be to not raise as many issues, because issues take a lot of time to reseolve 14:44:20 +1 on that 14:44:22 ... especailly RDF issues, which take a lot of time and are of limited relevance to everyone 14:44:28 .. allow the editor to have discretion 14:44:38 .. if people are really upset about that, let'sd do it on an issue-by-issue basis 14:45:01 .. second thing is in terms of authentication, we need to have a generic, i think the bearer token comment was en point 14:45:11 .. the w3c will liekly be starting a web authentication working group in the fall 14:45:18 .. the work is pretty baked already, around fido 14:45:23 .. we need to keep that out of scope 14:45:41 .. in terms of next steps, i'm happy to have aaron and jessica work and maybe someone from SoLiD 14:45:46 ack cwebber 14:45:47 .. but two or three people need to take responsibiltiy for converging 14:46:07 cwebber2: i think having aaron and jessica and osmone from solid try to find what the common ground is is a great idea 14:46:11 +??P5 14:46:21 Zakim, ??P5 is me 14:46:21 +bret; got it 14:46:37 Zakim, mute me 14:46:37 bret should now be muted 14:46:40 .. it seems like a lot of progress happened in this f2f whereas the last one the message was implementations win but we were going to end up rubber stamping somehing we already had 14:46:47 I agree with cwebber2 14:47:03 .. maybe after these converstaions happen, we can start to establish what are the prototype implementation goals 14:47:29 .. i do agree we should be moving into implementation phase pretty soon 14:47:35 ack bblfish 14:47:49 bblfish: i think these 3 groups are woring in different layers, so it's quite easy to get them to agree if we understand the different layers 14:48:08 .. as i was saying earlier, the container stuff is a container, what i'm seeing from activitystreams is a certain vocab which has certain side effects 14:48:16 .. it's kind of a specialized convtainer which does special things 14:48:29 .. turns out most of it has been already written 14:48:38 container ~= endpoint? https://github.com/w3c-social/social-glossary 14:49:00 .. i disagree with harry about the rdf vocab, if we can think about the modeling correctly, we'll be able to narrow down much more quickly 14:49:16 ack deiu 14:49:16 deiu, you wanted to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator 14:49:36 deiu: we're talking about the smallest common denominator, but we haven't really decided how to model basic things 14:49:39 .. like users and identities 14:49:47 .. so how to we get to see and browse each other's social graph 14:50:12 What about AS 2.0 vocabulary? 14:50:17 Arnaud: it'd be useful as a first step to list capabilities and features that we want to have 14:50:27 .. it would go along the lines of having an outline of what we want the spec to cover 14:50:45 .. we've seen through the deep dives we made there's a certain operation we expect to be able to have 14:50:50 a question is, how will that be different from user stories? 14:50:52 .. what are the basic blogs we need ot have for this api 14:51:00 .. not getting into the details of what the blocks look like 14:51:00 will this be a shared technical requirements requirements? 14:51:01 s/blogs/blocks/ 14:51:03 q? 14:51:05 q+ 14:51:11 B-) 14:51:18 .. one of the features of the indieweb is the modular approach 14:51:19 q+ 14:51:27 .. we don't start building a big spec, we define little specs with different modules 14:51:34 .. wecan experiment and argue over those different blocks 14:51:40 ack deiu 14:51:43 q? 14:52:01 deiu: classifying all these items would also allow us to see whether some of them are relevant or not 14:52:07 .. which means we might be able to remove some of the work ahead of us 14:52:18 q+ to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections) 14:52:26 ack eprodrom 14:52:57 eprodrom: two questions. the idea that we're trying to define the basica building blcoks, isn't that what the user stories were for? 14:53:07 q+ 14:53:13 .. if there's really a lot of question about syntax/strucre, do we need to stop our effort on AS2.0? 14:53:15 syntax is JSON-LD with pre or post-processing 14:53:20 q+ to mention that implementing the user stories requires establishing boundaries 14:53:23 .. my understanding was we were going to publish AS2.0 as the social data syntax 14:53:28 issue-15 14:53:28 unless there are serious objections 14:53:28 issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- closed 14:53:28 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15 14:53:31 .. if we are not in agreement, do we abandon that effortt? 14:53:41 In terms of the vocabulary, we just need to map those replications 14:53:46 I agree with Evan that both we have AS 2.0 anyway, and also wondering what the difference this would be from user stories 14:53:52 I really don't want to go through a user stories thing again 14:54:09 q? 14:54:11 .. seems like we need to move the AS2 effort forward, and if we're questioning that, we need to steb back and re-evaluate 14:54:22 AS2 isn't set in stone right? even if it's not right yet, we can change it to make it better 14:54:27 rather than starting over 14:54:31 Arnaud: the user stories don't define functional blocks 14:54:36 .. they inform you as to what they might be 14:55:03 .. with regard to the social API, i don't think anyone has been arguiing to drop AS2.0 14:55:13 .. so if we throw that out, we'd be that much closer to the situation harry was describing 14:55:25 PROPOSAL: All specs put forward by the group require AS 2.0 :) 14:55:31 .. but in fact, we've even heard that aaron, who makes no use of AS2 today said he'd have a use for it 14:55:35 .. so let's not be too dramatic about this 14:55:54 q- 14:55:56 ack elf-pavlik 14:55:56 elf-pavlik, you wanted to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections) 14:56:07 elf-pavlik: we didn't get to talk abotu extensibility today 14:56:10 .. solid is super extensible 14:56:15 elf-pavlik, INCORRECT 14:56:17 .. activitypump defines some actions but isn't extensible 14:56:23 That's not true at all! 14:56:36 .. indieweb has some vocab dilemmas, what do i do if i get terms i don't know how to render 14:56:47 +1 extensibility 14:56:47 ack bblfish 14:56:50 -1 discussing it endlessly 14:57:06 We have URI-based extensibility which should work with ActivityPump as is 14:57:08 "8.2 Activities The core of any [ActivityStreams] based protocol is activities within. Users post activities to their outbox, from which they are distributed to recipients' inboxes. ActivityPump places no restrictions on the activities which may be distributed; however, it defines certain activities with special behaviors" 14:57:10 bblfish: if we can reuse as much existing technology, ontologies, then we can get out a whole bunch of problems 14:57:11 implementation++ 14:57:12 elf-pavlik ^^^ 14:57:13 implementation has 2 karma 14:57:15 .. i was just loking at schema.org 14:57:16 Micropub has mp- 14:57:17 so... 14:57:21 .. then i understood what they were doing 14:57:26 we have URI based extensibility and the ActivityVocabulary 14:57:34 .. so maybe we can get to the core, specify the key integration points and reduce our workload 14:57:36 just see what points there are schema.org+microformat overlap with ActivityVocabulary 14:57:41 eprodrom, it'd be good if you could give us a walkthrough of that. How does an enterprise do travel-authroization (the example that came up yesterday) over activitypump? 14:57:42 Arnaud: i'd like to close the meeting 14:57:44 Not superhard. 14:57:45 .. i think we made good progress 14:58:02 .. if nothing else, sharing a lot more understanding, which is critical to being able to converge 14:58:04 sandro, sure, I'd love to 14:58:07 .. so i hope we can buildon that and continue 14:58:18 .. i would like people to seriously consider if they are up to being an editor or not 14:58:28 .. we don't want people to volunteer unless they are 100% committed 14:58:36 .. if you get in the way it's not going to help 14:58:52 .. it's not just editing the document, it's keeping track of the resolution... 14:59:00 .. answering public comments 14:59:09 .. i'm not trying to discourage people , just want to make sure they know what it takes 14:59:16 jasnell does a lot of work 14:59:21 MEETING ADJOURNED 14:59:25 Arnaud++ 14:59:27 Arnaud has 16 karma 14:59:47 elf-pavlik yes? 14:59:55 What? 15:00:11 What are you trying to say? 15:00:55 -??P2 15:00:57 eprodrom, we all had amazing meeting here and see a lot of potential to move forward 15:01:22 i have impression that remotely you might miss some context and i get impression of you grumpy side 15:01:31 -bret 15:01:45 -cwebber2 15:20:55 sandro: https://rawgit.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/master/activitystreams2-context.jsonld 15:30:37 melvster1 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/107 15:35:10 -Inria 15:35:11 Team_(socwg)07:29Z has ended 15:35:11 Attendees were [IPcaller], INRIA, cwebber2, eprodrom, +1.514.525.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme, bret 15:56:33 akuckartz has joined #social 16:16:54 tantek has joined #social 16:23:41 bblfish has joined #social 16:28:29 jaywink has joined #social 16:39:22 pfefferle has joined #social 16:49:40 ben_thatmustbeme do you get form-encoded response from GET /micropub?q=syndicate-to ? 16:49:59 http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub#Querying 16:50:01 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84010&oldid=83991 16:50:11 tantek ^ 17:01:16 I made it to the airport! 17:02:04 Zakim has left #social 17:07:00 Congrats Tsyesika :) 17:07:13 bblfish has joined #social 17:08:41 :) 17:09:02 rhiaro: i had the normal rifling through my luggage 17:09:05 i think i'm getting use to it 17:10:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84011&oldid=84010 17:17:10 KevinMarks has joined #social 17:32:07 oh cool looks like evan has started implementing https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump-server 17:49:42 Tsyesika: fast! :) 17:49:48 guess i have to learn Go 17:50:07 xD 17:50:10 just thinking the same thing 17:50:15 their hash map looks weird 17:50:29 defining a map inside a ma 17:50:30 oh well, I kind of wanted to learn it anyway! 17:50:31 *map 19:22:15 bblfish has joined #social 20:12:19 bblfish has joined #social 20:16:07 bblfish has joined #social 21:18:24 melvster has joined #social 21:50:03 Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=84012&oldid=84011 21:50:27 bblfish has joined #social 22:07:33 Tsyesika,https://github.com/google/cayley 22:08:46 sadly not JSON-LD lib for Go yet :( http://json-ld.org/ 23:00:10 bblfish has joined #social 23:45:39 LCyrin has joined #social 23:51:22 elf-pavlik: yes https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=syndicate-to 23:51:43 same for mp-action 23:51:45 https://ben.thatmustbe.me/micropub?q=actions