IRC log of social on 2015-05-05

Timestamps are in UTC.

07:27:25 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #social
07:27:25 [RRSAgent]
logging to
07:27:27 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:27:27 [Zakim]
Zakim has joined #social
07:27:29 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
07:27:29 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:27:30 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
07:27:30 [trackbot]
Date: 05 May 2015
07:28:08 [sandro]
zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes?
07:28:10 [Zakim]
sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again
07:29:54 [tantek]
tantek has joined #social
07:30:55 [sandro]
zakim, move 26631 here
07:30:55 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'move 26631 here', sandro
07:31:05 [sandro]
zakim, move conference 26631 here
07:31:05 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'move conference 26631 here', sandro
07:31:18 [sandro]
zakim, help
07:31:18 [Zakim]
Please refer to for more detailed help.
07:31:20 [Zakim]
Some of the commands I know are:
07:31:20 [Zakim]
xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx
07:31:20 [Zakim]
if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted
07:31:21 [Zakim]
xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx
07:31:21 [Zakim]
I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx
07:31:21 [Zakim]
xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group
07:31:21 [Zakim]
xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx
07:31:21 [Zakim]
who's here? - lists the participants on the phone
07:31:21 [Zakim]
who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted
07:31:22 [Zakim]
mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#)
07:31:22 [Zakim]
unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61#
07:31:22 [Zakim]
is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present
07:31:23 [Zakim]
list conferences - reports the active conferences
07:31:24 [Zakim]
this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx
07:31:24 [Zakim]
excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel
07:31:24 [Zakim]
I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $
07:31:30 [parklize]
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07:31:38 [sandro]
zakim, move conf1 to here
07:31:38 [Zakim]
sandro, I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z in the schedule but not yet started. Perhaps you mean "this will be conf1".
07:31:45 [sandro]
zakim, this will be conf1
07:31:46 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 2 minutes ago
07:32:14 [sandro]
zakim, this will be Team_(socwg)
07:32:14 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
07:32:29 [cwebber2]
morning, ish
07:32:36 [Arnaud]
trackbot, start meeting
07:32:38 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
07:32:40 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be SOCL
07:32:40 [Zakim]
I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
07:32:41 [trackbot]
Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
07:32:41 [trackbot]
Date: 05 May 2015
07:32:54 [cwebber2]
the "ish" is that it's 2:30am here, I'm barely awake
07:32:54 [sandro]
zakim, this will be Team_(socwg)
07:32:54 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; I see Team_(socwg)07:29Z scheduled to start 3 minutes ago
07:32:58 [claudio]
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07:33:59 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
07:33:59 [Zakim]
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has not yet started, Arnaud
07:34:01 [Zakim]
On IRC I see claudio, parklize, tantek, Zakim, RRSAgent, Arnaud, akuckartz, KevinMarks, shepazu, cwebber2, kaepora, deiu, elf-pavlik, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro,
07:34:01 [Zakim]
... aaronpk, kylewm, Tsyesika, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer
07:34:03 [sandro]
cwebber2, are you calling into Zakim? The conference code is 26631 today
07:34:16 [sandro]
sandro has changed the topic to: CODE IS 26631 TODAY Social WG: - Next meeting (Face 2 Face): - logs:
07:34:49 [bblfish]
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07:35:09 [Arnaud]
cwebber, are you calling in?
07:35:14 [bblfish]
07:36:05 [tantek]
good morning #social web WG! again, lurking today, in another meeting all day.
07:36:21 [sandro]
When the INRIA conference system answers the phone (in French) can you enter the conference code 23695487# ?
07:36:32 [sandro]
Zakim, call INRIA-bridge
07:36:32 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; the call is being made
07:36:33 [Zakim]
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started
07:36:34 [Zakim]
07:36:51 [sandro]
zakim, drop inria
07:36:51 [Zakim]
INRIA is being disconnected
07:36:53 [Zakim]
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has ended
07:36:53 [Zakim]
Attendees were INRIA
07:36:54 [Zakim]
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has now started
07:37:00 [sandro]
Zakim, call INRIA-bridge
07:37:00 [Zakim]
ok, sandro; the call is being made
07:37:02 [Zakim]
07:37:02 [Zakim]
07:37:25 [Zakim]
07:37:35 [Arnaud]
bridges are connected
07:38:16 [aaronpk]
scribenick: aaronpk
07:38:19 [cwebber2]
Arnaud: I am
07:38:26 [cwebber2]
give me a minute
07:38:40 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: plan for today is to go through two more APIs, activitypump and SoLiD
07:39:01 [rhiaro_]
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07:40:26 [cwebber2]
hey Arnaud it says
07:40:32 [cwebber2]
"the conference is restricted at this time"
07:40:39 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: user posts a note
07:41:07 [aaronpk]
posting a note to the outbox, you submit a Post activity with an object of a Note, sent to "followers"
07:41:25 [melvser1]
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07:41:36 [aaronpk]
the server returns the entire activity with the note back, and it's added the author and publish date, and the ID of the activity and the object
07:41:47 [aaronpk]
07:42:10 [aaronpk]
Sandro: do you need the @type collection on the "to" object? Yes
07:42:37 [cwebber2]
ok, I can't dial in since the conference is restricted, so I'll just follow via text
07:43:11 [sandro]
cwebber2, what conference code did you use?
07:43:17 [cwebber2]
sandro: SOCL
07:43:23 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: the API requires you to specify the type, we could see about removing the requirement
07:43:25 [sandro]
ah, sorry, but it's 26631 today
07:43:47 [Zakim]
07:43:49 [aaronpk] "to" is specifying the audience, not adding something to the collection, different from it being the target
07:44:14 [cwebber2]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
07:44:14 [Zakim]
+cwebber2; got it
07:44:18 [aaronpk]
...the server would lok at everyone you sent it to (the followers), and send it out to the inbox of everyone in the followers collection
07:44:29 [sandro]
cwebber2, can you hear Jessica?
07:44:40 [cwebber2]
yeah, it's a bit faint but I can follow
07:44:50 [AnnB]
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07:44:58 [sandro]
yeah, she's mostly facing the screen, which is facing away from you
07:45:02 [aaronpk]
... there are two URLs involved here, the user's outbox "feed" and the "followers"
07:45:34 [cwebber2]
sandro: no worries, it's sufficient
07:45:35 [aaronpk]
Q: is this like access control?
07:45:53 [akuckartz_]
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07:45:55 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: kind of, it's audience targeting but if the account is private then it acts as access control
07:46:07 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: can you tell us about the backend of distributing to the followers?
07:46:29 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: it iterates through all the followers asynchronously and sends the full activity object to the inbox of everyone
07:47:46 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: so there are two resources that got created, one for the note itself, and one for the acitvity
07:48:16 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: for updating a note, you specify the same note object but there's a new activity ID
07:49:55 [cwebber2]
it's like email and collections are like email lists
07:50:01 [aaronpk]
sandro: if the following collection changes tomorrow, who has access to the previous notes?
07:50:20 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: if I were to write the spec now, it would be available to the people who were in the collection at the time it was posted
07:51:29 [aaronpk]
sandro: so I could update the note and send the update to a different set of people?
07:51:35 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: i don't think this is specified either
07:51:45 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: i'll make an issue for clarifying the ACL
07:51:59 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: deletion, creating a deletion activity specifying the ID of the note
07:52:43 [the_frey]
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07:52:59 [aaronpk]
... a shell of the note remains at the original URL, which includes the deleted date. i'm going to open an issue to remove the publish/update dates from the deleted note
07:53:07 [shepazu_]
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07:54:03 [aaronpk]
... the delete activity becomes activity 3
07:54:29 [aaronpk]
next story: following a person
07:54:48 [bblfish]
what's the URL
07:54:59 [aaronpk]
07:55:00 [bblfish]
07:55:05 [sandro]
(To be more specific, the ACL issue is: how do the acls of a Note related to the recipient lists of the various activities which create/update that note)
07:55:57 [cwebber2]
fyi it's totally cutting in and out so if someone addresss me I won't hear it
07:57:42 [cwebber2]
wseltzer: might help
07:58:04 [cwebber2]
we're entering into a user story I wrote up last night without being able to coordinate with Tsyesika
07:58:20 [cwebber2]
and some of this behavior is different than the pump api
07:59:36 [cwebber2]
a bit I think
08:00:39 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: the first step was the act of following, the second was the distribution of adding an activity?
08:01:23 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: Delano posts a "follow" activity to his server with an object of Beth
08:01:48 [cwebber2]
explicit side-effect in the spec
08:01:54 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: what side effects does this have? it's a delivery mechanism and also changing the collection
08:02:03 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: it's an explicit effect
08:02:09 [aaronpk]
... this is acitivtypump specific
08:02:36 [claudio]
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08:02:37 [cwebber2]
08:02:51 [aaronpk]
... the server needs to know the "inbox" endpoint for beth, so it can go discover the endpoints
08:02:54 [Arnaud]
ack cwebber
08:03:17 [aaronpk]
cwebber2: btw some of this has changed from the pump API to activitypump at the request of the group, including the jsonld embedded in the HTML
08:03:48 [aaronpk]
... one of the options we discussde was whether we should embed jsonld into the html, but there are other options, we could embed microformats or rdfa into the document
08:04:01 [aaronpk]
... so we have not actually made decisions on this
08:04:40 [aaronpk]
... were previously using webfinger but the group decided not tu ose webfinger
08:04:47 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: so this is still an open issue for doing the URL discovery
08:05:09 [aaronpk]
... so now you can make a post to their inbox
08:06:20 [AnnB]
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08:06:23 [aaronpk]
aaronpk: can you clarify the "public" id in the "to"
08:06:44 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: this is a special URL that means the public collection
08:07:28 [cwebber2]
well, and
08:07:57 [cwebber2]
the target stuff is still in the editor's draft has to: cc: bcc:
08:08:01 [cwebber2]
it hasn't dropped that yet
08:08:04 [cwebber2]
for activitystreams 2
08:08:11 [cwebber2]
but I think we're willing to move with the group
08:08:22 [cwebber2]
it doesn't seem like it's gelled yet, even in the document
08:08:34 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: uses primary and secondary audiences extensively, so i'm skeptical of getting rid of them
08:08:53 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: what's the difference with using "to" and specifying a secondary audience, vs just using target
08:09:46 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: having a "to" of the public URL is essentially saying it's not to anyone, it's to everyone
08:09:57 [cwebber2]
elf-pavlik: it's pubsubhubbub style
08:10:07 [cwebber2]
it's not polling
08:10:08 [cwebber2]
it's push
08:10:16 [cwebber2]
you *can* pull
08:10:58 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: so why use the "to: inbox" why not just "target: my outbox"
08:11:29 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: mainly because this is how all audience targeting works to avoid a special case for this
08:12:10 [cwebber2]
elf-pavlik, public collections are a "special collection", there could be a different convention to have the stream
08:12:26 [cwebber2]
but the convention is currently deliver to collections or users
08:12:44 [aaronpk]
bblfish: so the problem is in this case, the "id" is not derefencable so the code needs to special-case this all the time
08:12:51 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: that's true
08:13:12 [aaronpk]
...okay now this is delano looking at his inbox, he sees the post made by beth of the image, and presumably more activities below
08:13:39 [aaronpk]
... unfollowing someone, they make another acitivty to their outbox, delano unfollowing beth
08:13:50 [aaronpk]
.. the object is the person, send to beth and cc the public URL
08:14:03 [cwebber2]
wseltzer: btw the call quality is much better now
08:14:53 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: there is a suggestion for using the "undo" activity with the object of the activity you want to undo
08:15:23 [aaronpk]
... so in this case the user is removed from the followers collection
08:15:56 [aaronpk]
bblfish: in some ways there's a similarity between micropub, which is that this is also not restful
08:16:22 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: we do specify an alternative way of doing this, you do a PUT to any object
08:16:35 [aaronpk]
... and has a side effect of generating the update activity
08:16:38 [cwebber2]
we had PUT and DELETE and removed it on feedback
08:16:48 [timbl]
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08:16:52 [aaronpk]
... in some reasearch evan did, most people were posting activities
08:17:02 [aaronpk]
... but we do make allowances for that in the specification
08:17:06 [cwebber2]
evan looking into it was also partly prompted by tantek requesting possibly dropping it down to GET/POST only
08:18:47 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: next story:
08:18:53 [aaronpk]
... 1. finding more content from an author
08:19:32 [eprodrom]
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08:19:47 [cwebber2]
activitypump is the socialwg iteration of the pump api ;)
08:19:49 [cwebber2]
hey eprodrom !
08:19:57 [eprodrom]
08:20:06 [aaronpk]
... looking at the inbox. this is where activitypump diverges from
08:20:29 [aaronpk]
... pumpio has a specific comment type, so when you're posting a reply you're posting a comment, which is like a note
08:20:46 [hhalpin]
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08:20:51 [aaronpk]
... but in activitypump we don't have a comment type, you just post any object, and add an inReplyTo
08:21:12 [eprodrom]
08:21:26 [eprodrom]
That's not true
08:21:38 [tantek]
interesting about no explicit comment type!
08:21:42 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
08:21:42 [Zakim]
On the phone I see INRIA, cwebber2
08:21:55 [eprodrom]
Arnaud: I thought we were starting at 9:30 this morning again
08:21:58 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: can you clarify what's not true?
08:22:03 [hhalpin]
evanpro - the Zakim code is: 26631
08:22:05 [Arnaud]
we did
08:22:08 [eprodrom] API doesn't require a specific type
08:22:12 [eprodrom]
hhalpin: thanks
08:22:20 [eprodrom]
But OK
08:22:24 [cwebber2]
08:22:27 [cwebber2]
08:22:29 [bblfish]
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08:22:29 [Arnaud]
9:30 was 1h ago
08:22:56 [eprodrom]
Ah great
08:22:58 [eprodrom]
My bad
08:22:59 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: I apologize to evan if I made a mistake
08:23:07 [hhalpin]
ok, regardless ActivityPump does have quite a few differences - evanpro, you may want to list them.
08:23:28 [hhalpin]
In particular, re dependencies on the rest of the "Ostatus" stack
08:23:44 [eprodrom]
08:23:56 [AnnB]
Tseysika invites eprodrom to clarify
08:24:07 [eprodrom]
Which, about the comment type?
08:24:12 [hhalpin]
and clarify at some point what you think is crucial to keep and what dependencies you could live without. For example, didn't Google stop producing webfinger?
08:24:27 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: you can if you wish to a GET on the user's outbox to see the activities they've done which is what's in this example
08:24:29 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: what are you objecting to?
08:24:36 [cwebber2]
that's where you should comment :)
08:24:42 [eprodrom]
Will do
08:24:57 [AnnB]
dang time zones!
08:25:25 [aaronpk]
... those are the user stories we got done last night, hopefully that gives you an idea
08:25:28 [cwebber2]
08:25:30 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: are there any more questions?
08:25:30 [Loqi]
Tsyesika has 9 karma
08:25:44 [aaronpk]
... it seems that access control is a big difference
08:25:45 [Zakim]
08:26:27 [elf-pavlik]
Arnaud: looks like IndieWeb doesn't have ACL - looking at ActivityPump approach
08:26:44 [elf-pavlik]
aaronpk: we experiment with with it and it may work similar to ActivityPump
08:26:57 [elf-pavlik]
aaronpk: sending private not has some experiments but we still work on it
08:27:17 [elf-pavlik]
elf-pavlik: public content seems focus so far in IndieWe
08:27:50 [cwebber2]
elf-pavlik: it's not using pubsubhubbub
08:27:56 [cwebber2]
it's push-style
08:27:59 [hhalpin_]
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08:28:12 [hhalpin_]
08:28:21 [aaronpk]
cwebber2: pubsubhubbub is push-style, not sure what you mean
08:28:35 [aaronpk]
(that was me saying that, not cwebber2 oops)
08:28:52 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, right, I meant that it's push-style *like* pubsubhubbub, but it isn't *using* pubsubhubbib, sorry
08:29:01 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, that was the clarification I meant
08:29:06 [aaronpk]
(cool thanks)
08:29:14 [aaronpk]
bblfish: can you describe posting a photo
08:29:30 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: you submit the file with the image content type, you get back the image ID
08:29:38 [aaronpk]
...then you can submit an activity with the photo object
08:29:45 [elf-pavlik] Tsyesika can you please put it on a screen?
08:29:53 [eprodrom]
08:30:00 [aaronpk]
...i'm not thrilled about having several requests, I like how indieweb did it where you submit just one request with all the metadata you want
08:30:23 [aaronpk]
... we don't have any provisions right now for specifying a title when uploading the photo right now, so you have to do it in multiple requests
08:30:34 [elf-pavlik]
08:30:36 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin_
08:30:39 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: sidefects
08:30:41 [bblfish]
08:30:52 [aaronpk]
hhalpin_: quick note on the ACL point, I thought we had some stories about access control, but maybe not ones that we all agreed on had it
08:31:07 [aaronpk]
... so it would be great to get it working, but if we can't even get public working then we shouldn't do access control
08:31:19 [aaronpk]
... So in terms of activiitypump, it's nice that it's the one that's closest that maps to AS2.0
08:31:42 [aaronpk]
... if you're looking to converge with the indieweb aapproach, what is your take on the form encoding
08:31:53 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: there's lots of nested stuff, but they get around it by posting stuff individualyand referencing it by ID
08:32:06 [aaronpk]
... that'd work, but i'm not huge on making lots of requests
08:32:29 [aaronpk]
... i'm not necessarily against form encoding, but JSON has its merits, and especially JSONLD given its extensibility
08:32:37 [eprodrom]
I have the answer, call on me
08:32:47 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
08:32:56 [bblfish]
08:32:58 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: it's entirely possible, we had a mechanism in to include the image in the json encoded upload
08:33:10 [bblfish]
08:33:14 [aaronpk]
... it's less popular because you have to do some encoding in the JSON upload, so people like the double post more often
08:33:24 [hhalpin_]
I'm trying to map the "big" differences and see where we can get consensus on the larger whole.
08:33:30 [aaronpk]
... i'd also point out that the double-post mechanism comes from the atompub protocol
08:33:45 [aaronpk]
08:34:20 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: there is a mechanism in that didn't make it into activitypump, to encode a binary object in JSON, so if it's needed we can pull it over
08:34:28 [aaronpk]
... the other option is the double post mechanism
08:34:28 [elf-pavlik]
08:34:32 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
08:34:32 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss sidefects
08:36:23 [cwebber2]
elf-pavlik: it could be viewed in an RDF type graph as well that's probably true
08:36:24 [cwebber2]
08:36:30 [cwebber2]
what happens if you follow, unfollow, follow?
08:36:37 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: posting the as:follow activity has the side effect of adding the :follows edge
08:36:49 [hhalpin_]
Arnaud, you may want to mention the IBM testing effort for ActivityStreams about now
08:37:12 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik: is the point that we'd have to test the behaviour?
08:37:18 [aaronpk] could make an automated test
08:38:03 [eprodrom]
08:38:36 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: when you submit a folow activity, twot hings happne. the activity is federated to the audience, and the user is added to the followers collection
08:38:49 [aaronpk]
... so in the future, when you post to the followers collection as the audience, it will also federate to the new person
08:39:03 [hhalpin_]
What is difficult about testing the side-effects (i.e. input->outputs)?
08:39:04 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: i think elf's point is that we don't have all those side effects listed out under the follow activity
08:39:22 [aaronpk]
... we should probably do that for each of these activities
08:39:29 [hhalpin_]
+1 be clearer about the input/outputs but bugs will be worked out in test-suite
08:39:33 [eprodrom]
"The Follow activity is used to subscribe to the activities of another user. Once the user has followed a user, activities shared with the Follows of that user SHOULD be added to the actors's inbox."
08:40:00 [cwebber2]
08:40:11 [elf-pavlik]
data visualisation:
08:40:14 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
08:40:32 [aaronpk]
bblfish: LDP also doesn't know how to do multiple files in one go
08:41:06 [cwebber2]
multiple files is an interesting motivation for the file endpoint
08:41:14 [cwebber2]
I hadn't realized that bit
08:41:17 [aaronpk]
... couldn't activithypump also use multipart uploads?
08:41:36 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: currently LDP1.0 spec doesn't talk abotu how to optimize this kind of operation, you have to deal with every resource independelty
08:41:45 [aaronpk]
.. there have been discussions about how to optimize the traffic
08:42:04 [aaronpk]
... there was some ealier draft that allowed it, there were questions about the details, so we took it out, now it's on the wishlist
08:42:21 [Zakim]
08:42:21 [aaronpk]
... we just discussed the priority items for LDP, it was selected to allow that for the read, but not for the write
08:42:35 [aaronpk]
... it's not clear that the next version will allow to post multiple things inthe same operation
08:42:52 [aaronpk]
timbl: we could take input from here
08:43:00 [elf-pavlik]
08:43:01 [sandro]
LDP WishList
08:43:03 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: people are welcome to express their opinion here whether that's a priority
08:43:03 [Loqi]
timbl has 3 karma
08:43:09 [Zakim]
08:43:22 [Arnaud]
ack aaronpk
08:43:38 [elf-pavlik]
aaronpk: i want to talk about Harrys question about convergence of APIs
08:43:38 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: I wanted to talk about quesiton of converging apis
08:43:40 [Zakim]
08:43:49 [rhiaro_]
... Bigger difference than form encoding
08:43:50 [bblfish]
yes @sandro but there is also the list of 6 items that are being proposed for LDP next charter. that is more important
08:44:15 [rhiaro_]
... In activitypump you're always creating an activity that references an object, but in micropub you only create an object and no explicity activity
08:44:17 [Zakim]
+ +1.514.525.aaaa
08:44:23 [rhiaro_]
... trying to make those match up is more than dealing with nested objects
08:44:28 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, I think you are right on that analysis
08:44:29 [elf-pavlik]
08:44:43 [Zakim]
- +1.514.525.aaaa
08:44:47 [rhiaro_]
... it would take something like making micropub create activities vs objects, or having the activitypump api create the activities as a side effect of the object, rather than explicitly creating activities
08:44:53 [sandro]
bblfish, sure, it's all up to there ACTUALLY being a sufficient community to do this.
08:44:57 [rhiaro_]
harry: do developers find it easier to work with activities or objects directly?
08:45:07 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: from what I've seen creating objects directly has been extremely straightfoward
08:45:15 [rhiaro_]
... but i haven't talked to a lot of people who are creating activitystreams posts
08:45:18 [eprodrom]
08:45:18 [elf-pavlik]
08:45:21 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: a matter of personal preference
08:45:29 [rhiaro_]
... activities are subject verb object type things
08:45:37 [rhiaro_]
... like Tsyesika posts Image
08:45:37 [Zakim]
08:45:40 [bblfish]
yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved stories, so that those who are do not see their story in the wishlist, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff
08:45:40 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP
08:45:42 [rhiaro_]
... activities very much how yo'd construct a sentence
08:45:49 [timbl]
timbl has joined #social
08:46:00 [rhiaro_]
... It's not too difficult for developers to work with activities. Just personal preference, one isn't easier or harder
08:46:03 [bblfish]
08:46:04 [eprodrom]
Hey, the conference bridge is a mess
08:46:13 [eprodrom]
Am I the only one who can't hear anything, cwebber2 ?
08:46:24 [bblfish]
yes, indeed but there should be a list of approved LDP next desires, so that those who are do not see their desire in the LDP next, can at least drum up support :-) Ie. we need a diff
08:46:25 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: it's been the hard the whole time, believe it or not it's better than it was ;\
08:46:29 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: aaron's point is that the significat difference between the two approaches is activities are implied and maybe reconstructed if you need to, whereas here they're explicitly stated and created as independant resources
08:46:31 [bblfish]
08:46:32 [eprodrom]
08:46:36 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
08:46:38 [eprodrom]
08:46:49 [eprodrom]
Developers overwhelmingly prefer the activity style
08:46:54 [elf-pavlik]
eprodrom, we can't hear you
08:47:05 [eprodrom]
I know, because your phone is all messed up
08:47:15 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: they can hear fine though
08:47:17 [cwebber2]
we just can't hear them
08:47:18 [eprodrom]
We had about an OOM difference between object-style and activity-stle
08:47:19 [cwebber2]
08:47:27 [kaepora]
(Sorry I'm late: I'd like to repeat my offer to have a "crypto Q&A session" today so I can help as the invited observer who works in crypto)
08:47:46 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: with we have an order of magnitude difference between people doing operations on activityies vs creating objects directly
08:47:59 [akuckartz]
08:48:01 [Loqi]
kaepora has 1 karma
08:48:17 [eprodrom]
I can't hear, have to wait for the scribe
08:48:20 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, the question was:
08:48:22 [eprodrom]
Is there a way to fix the phone there?
08:48:34 [sandro]
we can try hanging up and dialing again, I guess
08:48:40 [Arnaud]
we didn't know it was broken!
08:48:45 [sandro]
you're not hearing anything?
08:48:48 [bblfish]
we need a cofee break to fix it. What is the problem you are experienceing @eprodrom ?
08:48:52 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, could you clarify, was it that you had an experience with an overwhelming number of developers having preference
08:48:56 [aaronpk]
sandro: i think you were saying you tried both approaches and people preferred one?
08:48:58 [cwebber2]
between activities and objects
08:49:07 [cwebber2]
let eprodrom respond before we do that dacne
08:49:10 [eprodrom]
Yes, from logs
08:49:12 [AnnB]
you guys can't hear anything?
08:49:15 [AnnB]
we didn't know
08:49:17 [Arnaud]
none of you can hear us?
08:49:19 [eprodrom]
I can barely hear
08:49:22 [AnnB]
08:49:32 [eprodrom]
08:49:34 [eprodrom]
08:49:35 [sandro]
cwebber2, it was working earlier, right? did it stop at some point?
08:49:37 [cwebber2]
yes much better
08:49:42 [cwebber2]
sandro: it has been bad the whole time
08:49:50 [cwebber2]
sandro: but it was even worse earlier
08:49:57 [hhalpin_]
we could always switch to
08:49:59 [cwebber2]
I agree it's not a connection
08:50:03 [cwebber2]
now it's much clearer
08:50:29 [sandro]
it's just a long room, so some people aren't near the speakerphone.
08:50:37 [cwebber2]
anyway, maybe eprodrom should be able to reply to that point before we do any connect/disconnect dance?
08:50:56 [cwebber2]
08:50:58 [eprodrom]
08:51:29 [cwebber2]
08:51:34 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: did you mean people use posting of activities more than PUT and DELETE on objects?
08:51:50 [cwebber2]
eprodrom: your turn to speak
08:51:56 [cwebber2]
are you muted?
08:52:00 [eprodrom]
08:52:01 [eprodrom]
One sec
08:52:08 [Arnaud]
eprodrom, can you please expaned a bit on what you meant
08:52:08 [eprodrom]
Let's just go to break, I'm sorry
08:52:19 [pfefferle]
pfefferle has joined #social
08:52:29 [sandro]
is there something you want us to do during the break?
08:52:40 [cwebber2]
08:53:14 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: yeah we did a big log scan based on a question from tantek. we had about 10x more people using activities endpoints posting update and delete activities ranther than PUT and DELETE on objects
08:53:19 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: that was via Tsyesika btw
08:53:20 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
08:53:27 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: i'd like to talk about differences between activitypump and api
08:54:00 [aaronpk]
... there's a notify method, uses a regular webhooks mechanism, the other is activitypump requires https IDs for objects and allows any ID for objects
08:54:14 [aaronpk]
... the requiement for https IDs came in from activitypump
08:54:24 [aaronpk]
... i'm not crazy about it
08:54:44 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika: there's an issue open about both things, most of those are things left from how oshepherd wanted it, and I just didn't change it
08:54:50 [hhalpin_]
so maybe dropping those HTTP IDs might be possible.
08:55:03 [aaronpk]
... i'm more than open to having less stringent requirement for IDs, I don't think requiring TLS on URIs is necessary
08:55:09 [hhalpin_]
that would probably make people happier re convergence
08:55:25 [hhalpin_]
08:55:33 [rhiaro_]
people using activities endpoint over PUT on objects could be a preference for endpoints over restful, not necessarily activities over objects (cc Tsyesika, eprodrom, cwebber2)
08:55:38 [aaronpk]
... for the most part we're open to change
08:55:53 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
08:55:53 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss shortly lon side effects in MicroPub, ActivityPump and LDP
08:55:54 [elf-pavlik]
08:56:05 [elf-pavlik]
08:56:10 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: activitypump seems heavy on side effects, LDP seems light on side effects
08:56:19 [aaronpk]
...the user posts a file is a great story to demonstrate side effects
08:56:27 [aaronpk]
... if we all compare this story we can talk more about the side effects
08:56:33 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: i thinkwe can defer that discussion to later
08:56:41 [hhalpin_]
08:56:46 [aaronpk]
... the plan is next to talk about the similar stories with SoLID, the rest of the day is about talking about how they compare
08:56:50 [hhalpin_]
ack hhalpin
08:56:54 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin_
08:57:02 [aaronpk]
hhalpin_: we are at inria, the world top center for TLS and web security stuff...
08:57:19 [aaronpk]
... i'm going to talk with the researchers here, if people wanted to do a brief security session, maybe people would be interested
08:57:24 [KevinMarks]
hm, the dev pref for activities seen on pump could be because those are theire esamples
08:57:25 [cwebber2]
totally dropping out
08:57:31 [elf-pavlik]
+1 TLS session
08:57:56 [cwebber2]
the call, I mean :)
08:58:00 [KevinMarks]
PUT rather than POST?
08:58:02 [hhalpin_]
should we do a crypto or TLS session?
08:58:13 [hhalpin_]
I'll ask Karthik what his schedule is, but Nadim could also do it.
08:58:14 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: let's take a break for now, 10-15 minutes then look at SoLiD
08:58:42 [KevinMarks]
PUT is a pain to do; POST is a form, hence micropub
08:59:37 [AnnB]
bye, cwebber2 ... if you're going
08:59:45 [cwebber2]
AnnB: oh I'm not leaving
08:59:49 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika: I just found out that SUBSCRIBE/NOTIFY is an existing model in WebDAV
08:59:51 [eprodrom]
08:59:53 [cwebber2]
I meant, the call was dropping in and out of my ability to hear :)
08:59:57 [eprodrom]
09:00:06 [AnnB]
ah yes .. they're rebooting phone I think
09:00:07 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika: also, great job!
09:00:14 [cwebber2]
yes indeed
09:00:17 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: thanks! sorry about the few mistakes i made >.<
09:00:19 [AnnB]
yes, Tsyesika++
09:00:20 [cwebber2]
Tsyesika, kick ass work :)
09:00:23 [cwebber2]
09:00:25 [Loqi]
Tsyesika has 10 karma
09:00:27 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika: yes, sorry about my outburst
09:00:39 [eprodrom]
With, the "comment" type isn't required for a response
09:00:48 [Tsyesika]
thanks for clarifying
09:00:48 [eprodrom]
Any in-reply-to response will work
09:00:51 [AnnB]
pretty mild, if that was an outburst!
09:00:57 [cwebber2]
09:01:12 [cwebber2]
anyway, I knew Tsyesika was the right person to present on the subject
09:01:14 [eprodrom]
However, I think the Web UI will barf if it sees something besides a comment there
09:01:21 [eprodrom]
Yes, fantastic
09:01:23 [cwebber2]
Tsyesika: I think you did a clearer job of presenting on the spec than I would have!
09:01:38 [eprodrom]
Did you ever hear back from Owen Shephard?
09:01:39 [cwebber2]
ok, now that we're at a bredak
09:01:43 [cwebber2]
I can finally get coffee
09:01:45 [cwebber2]
09:01:47 [oshepherd]
eprodrom: *sticks nose in*
09:01:48 [AnnB]
go for it!
09:01:53 [eprodrom]
09:01:55 [cwebber2]
ohai oshepherd :)
09:01:57 [eprodrom]
Also, misspelled
09:02:10 [eprodrom]
Your last name
09:02:18 [eprodrom]
Hooray that you are here oshepherd
09:02:31 [oshepherd]
I have been suuuuper busy
09:02:56 [sandro]
anyone on the phone
09:03:13 [oshepherd]
I commented a couple of weeks back on verb vs object orientation... My conclusion was that the only difference here between indieweb and ActivityStreams *in practice* was the "post"/"share" verbs which IMO are very contentless (and I'd actually prefer ActivityStreams without them, because in practice they're - specifically the post verb - a huge source of problems in
09:05:02 [oshepherd]
Specifically the problem is that you really want the audience attached to the object, but it ends up attached to the post
09:05:22 [tantek]
tantek has joined #social
09:05:59 [oshepherd]
Anyway, on the subject of mandatory TLS: I'll note that the both Google, Mozilla and I believe the W3C itself have announced an intent to deprecate HTTP (non-S)
09:06:13 [eprodrom]
09:06:27 [eprodrom]
I like a SHOULD but I'm less crazy about a MUST
09:06:39 [eprodrom]
I also like Webfinger
09:06:53 [elf-pavlik]
09:06:58 [eprodrom]
But I understand that the requirement for dereferenceable URIs makes that more complex
09:07:07 [oshepherd]
I haven't had a chance to catch up with Tsyesika's changes, but I did keep Webfinger *just* for the use case of translating user@domain identities
09:07:12 [eprodrom]
(We have to drag in the Webfinger spec)
09:07:22 [eprodrom]
Oh, I think it's out now
09:07:31 [Zakim]
09:08:02 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik: I find it funny that you talk about the update to the social graph as a "side effect"
09:08:14 [eprodrom]
It seems like the primary intent of posting a "follow" activity
09:08:35 [oshepherd]
Theres a whole lot of social platforms out there today using such identities - StatusNet, PumpIO, Diaspora, more traditional things like XMPP, even email. I don't think we can say "Sorry, you have to throw away all your user IDs" to them
09:08:58 [eprodrom]
I see your point
09:09:10 [eprodrom]
But I think there's something to be said for consistency too
09:09:19 [eprodrom]
(I prefer keeping the Webfinger ID, btw)
09:09:45 [oshepherd]
But I very much kept WebFinger use minimal - its' just "take an acct URI and translate it into the URI of an ActivityStreams profile document" - and if your IDs aren't in acct: form, you don't need to implement a server
09:11:38 [eprodrom]
All of which is to say
09:11:41 [eprodrom]
09:11:43 [Loqi]
oshepherd has 3 karma
09:11:50 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika += 1,000,000
09:12:06 [eprodrom]
Actually I guess in Python that'd be
09:12:24 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika = Tsyesika + 1000000
09:12:29 [oshepherd]
Python has +=
09:12:32 [eprodrom]
09:12:34 [eprodrom]
09:12:45 [oshepherd]
Doesn't have ++ though, unless my brain has gone fuzzy
09:12:59 [eprodrom]
I usually assume that if a particular syntax element is convenient Python prudishly disallows it
09:13:16 [eprodrom]
09:14:14 [oshepherd]
I spend most of my time coding in SystemVerilog these days which is the mother of not-at-all convinient
09:14:45 [Gabriel_Lachmann]
Gabriel_Lachmann has joined #social
09:15:31 [oshepherd]
(No, SystemVerilog, nobody wanted their function's member variables to default static. But that's enough ranting about SystemVerilog :-))
09:15:39 [eprodrom]
09:15:44 [eprodrom]
OK, I will pipe down then
09:16:01 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika, it looks like AS2.0 doesn't even have a "comment" type
09:16:06 [eprodrom]
Which is probably good
09:16:20 [eprodrom]
I've never been a big fan
09:16:56 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: yeah we use "Note" type as an example of what i'd use a "comment" in for
09:16:57 [oshepherd]
It's basically just a "note"
09:17:09 [rhiaro_]
scribenick: rhiaro
09:17:16 [aaronpk]
scribenick: rhiaro_
09:17:41 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: we have all afternoon, if we don't get through before lunch we can go on after
09:17:52 [rhiaro_]
... can people on the phone hear?
09:17:54 [cwebber2]
I can hear
09:17:59 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #social
09:18:23 [akuckartz]
akuckartz has joined #social
09:19:14 [Tsyesika]
oshepherd: i did want you to look at #15 and #19 on
09:19:19 [Tsyesika]
oshepherd: not now but sometime
09:19:37 [Zakim]
09:19:43 [rhiaro_]
deiu: will start with most basic example, create edit and delete a note
09:19:56 [rhiaro_]
... then henry's going to go over two more complex examples, profile editing and access control stuff
09:20:11 [rhiaro_]
... So SoLiD uses LDP to create new resources and manage resources
09:20:23 [sandro]
09:20:24 [rhiaro_]
... This makes it really easy for people who are used to a restful way of doing things
09:20:41 [rhiaro_]
... compared to previous examples, we're not using an endpoint to post new data, but creating data inside a container that is used to store similar types of resources
09:20:43 [rhiaro_]
... in this case, a notes container
09:20:44 [oshepherd]
Tsyesika: Using the NOTIFY element is supremely elegant. It's also quite likely to be a supreme pain in the ass, so I'd say go ahead and replace it with POST.
09:20:53 [rhiaro_]
... So we can see here our examples use curl
09:21:03 [rhiaro_]
... just to give you an impression of how simple they are
09:21:18 [eprodrom]
09:21:33 [aaronpk]
q+ to ask about "slug"
09:21:41 [rhiaro_]
... What we're doing is sending a post request with slug header, and data containing actual note. Uses activitystreams terms to describe note
09:21:48 [rhiaro_]
... [and is turtle]
09:22:01 [rhiaro_]
... could be json-ld
09:22:03 [oshepherd]
Tsyesika, as for HTTPS, maybe table this one for later. By the time any spec becomes a REC, I expect Lets Encrypt should make TLS certs trivially available
09:22:10 [eprodrom]
Could you speak up, please, deiu ?
09:22:20 [rhiaro_]
... use AS2.0 vocab
09:22:28 [rhiaro_]
sandro: we haven't implmeented anything that uses that
09:22:35 [rhiaro_]
deiu: we don't have an app that consumes AS2.0 data
09:22:42 [rhiaro_]
... the point is to demonstrate how you create and modify data
09:22:50 [rhiaro_]
timbl: you can do it with a client without the server knowing anything
09:23:05 [rhiaro_]
deiu: What the server returns is a Location header which has the full URI of the new resource
09:23:22 [rhiaro_]
... Second step is to correct/complete the note that was sent before
09:23:28 [rhiaro_]
... Client needs to update existing resource with the new data
09:23:33 [rhiaro_]
... SoLiD has two ways of doing this
09:23:37 [rhiaro_]
... can do a PUT to replace whole resource
09:23:50 [rhiaro_]
... uses URI of new resource, that you get back in the Location header
09:23:50 [Tsyesika]
oshepherd: might be good to write that on the issue just so evan can respond, i am not against lowering the requirements but i'm also not really bothered by it either but it seems evan is
09:24:03 [rhiaro_]
... Second way of doing is to send an HTTP PATCH with a SPARQL UPDATE
09:24:03 [eprodrom]
09:24:04 [eprodrom]
I am
09:24:14 [rhiaro_]
... in which you modify only the bit of information you want to change
09:24:21 [AnnB]
phone people ... are you still having trouble hearing?
09:24:32 [eprodrom]
Yes, it's just fading in and out
09:24:35 [rhiaro_]
... We should probably add PATCH but it's not relevant to this group
09:24:41 [eprodrom]
I think the speaker needs to be louder or closer to the phone
09:24:50 [aaronpk]
he's as close as he can get
09:24:52 [rhiaro_]
sandro: PATCH is subject to conneg. The one here is implemented, but there's a w3c rec for a different patch format
09:24:54 [eprodrom]
OK, thanks
09:24:55 [elf-pavlik]
09:24:56 [rhiaro_]
deiu: we do support json patches
09:25:02 [rhiaro_]
... if you have json-ld file you could use that
09:25:21 [rhiaro_]
... final step is user decides to delete note
09:25:34 [rhiaro_]
... HTTP operation on the resource itself (DELETE)
09:25:52 [elf-pavlik]
09:26:01 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
09:26:19 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid
09:26:46 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: social software often when you're posting a note, you would send it somewhere, like the inbox of followers or mentions inbox of person mentioned
09:26:50 [rhiaro_]
... I understand this wouldn't be possible?
09:27:08 [rhiaro_]
... So side effect wouldn't happen server side, has to happen client side
09:27:19 [rhiaro_]
deiu: yes, everything happens in the client. Client is charged to send notification to someone's inbox
09:27:28 [rhiaro_]
... or you could have additional app-specific service which listens to changes on containers
09:27:42 [rhiaro_]
... then based on changes on containers like new resource created, could trigger app-specific processes
09:27:49 [rhiaro_]
melvster: triggers websocket
09:27:51 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: that's interesting
09:27:59 [elf-pavlik]
ACTION: pelf create comparison of side effects approach in MicroPub, ActivityPump and SoLiD
09:28:00 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-61 - Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12].
09:28:13 [rhiaro_]
... twitter members have millions or tens of millions of follows, would not be scaleable to have client distribute note to millinos of inboxes
09:28:16 [bblfish]
09:28:20 [rhiaro_]
... starts becoming difficult for client
09:28:30 [rhiaro_]
... and if two different clients do it differently you don't have a very consisten social experience
09:28:48 [rhiaro_]
... so if there is a way to have a consistant side effect that provides these sorts of features in ldp that would be interesting
09:29:04 [melvser1]
09:29:09 [rhiaro_]
... access control too
09:29:13 [rhiaro_]
deiu: we have access control
09:29:27 [rhiaro_]
... SoLiD does implement websockets
09:29:34 [rhiaro_]
... has a websocket interface for all it's resources
09:29:48 [rhiaro_]
... you could have a service which listens on a websocket which has subscribed to that container, which can process all the data that gets into the container
09:29:50 [cwebber2]
huh, that's interesting
09:29:54 [rhiaro_]
timbl: which works for hundreds of thousands of people
09:30:18 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: if you come check yoru inbox in the morning and want to see all the stuff that happened since yesterday, has to be some kind of application process, or you can leave a websocket open all night
09:30:25 [rhiaro_]
... so websocket interesting for online updates, but not distirbution
09:30:33 [rhiaro_]
deiu: distribution happens by a service, like a pubsub service
09:30:39 [rhiaro_]
... that listens to data and upates all its subscribers
09:30:43 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: more background on ldp
09:30:51 [elf-pavlik]
ACTION: pelf document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients
09:30:51 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-62 - Document possible danger of malicious apps when moving more responsibilities to clients [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-12].
09:31:08 [rhiaro_]
... there are different use cases. LDP spec defines generic protocol to create and update and find resources
09:31:17 [rhiaro_]
... but there are different types of servers that can implement LDP
09:31:27 [rhiaro_]
... there is what we refer to as (??) applications
09:31:32 [rhiaro_]
... no specific application semantic associated
09:31:34 [melvser1]
09:31:35 [rhiaro_]
... generic datastore
09:31:42 [rhiaro_]
... you send bits, they store, you ask and they return
09:31:45 [rhiaro_]
... never any side effects
09:31:50 [rhiaro_]
... Other peopel use LDP with very application specific servers
09:31:59 [rhiaro_]
... for example, IBM uses LDP in the context of application lifecycle management
09:32:06 [rhiaro_]
... LDP is a thin layer put on the top of legacy software
09:32:27 [rhiaro_]
... in this case when you create a resource using LDP you create something with very specific semantics, and has application specific side effects
09:32:45 [rhiaro_]
... possible to imagine in this case youc ould hasl have an application specifi cserver, with side effects like distribution and notifications and things like that
09:32:50 [bblfish]
09:32:51 [Arnaud]
ack aaronpk
09:32:51 [Zakim]
aaronpk, you wanted to ask about "slug"
09:33:12 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: about slug - is that meant to be a unique slug per note, or a namespace where multiple things go?
09:33:16 [eprodrom]
rhiaro_: thanks for scribing so well
09:33:18 [rhiaro_]
deiu: a hint on how you want URI to end up looking
09:33:25 [rhiaro_]
... was name, not namepsace
09:33:28 [rhiaro_]
... suggested name
09:33:33 [rhiaro_]
... server could ignore it
09:33:42 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: that's not specific to LDP, there's an RFC on slug
09:33:56 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: Ok. Other thing - you do or do not have implementations consuming the data?
09:34:04 [rhiaro_]
deiu: I meant about activity streams vocab
09:34:16 [rhiaro_]
... we don't have an implementation that consumes AS
09:34:20 [rhiaro_]
... things created so far don't use AS
09:34:25 [rhiaro_]
sandro: CIMBA uses SIOC
09:34:30 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
09:34:30 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss request for Social WG oriented view on SoLid
09:34:36 [elf-pavlik]
09:34:36 [trackbot]
action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN
09:34:36 [trackbot]
09:34:38 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: for the side-effects I created action-61
09:34:48 [rhiaro_]
... I don't think it's enough to just have this in minutes
09:34:50 [rhiaro_]
... we should document on wiki
09:34:57 [elf-pavlik]
09:35:04 [rhiaro_]
... Also I'm going to request on SoLiD repo that we can have a social web perspect
09:35:07 [rhiaro_]
... ive
09:35:15 [rhiaro_]
... eg. using json-ld first instead of turtle, etc
09:35:20 [rhiaro_]
... to make it easier for group
09:35:29 [rhiaro_]
... whoever wants to work on it with me, can help
09:35:45 [sandro]
q+ to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP
09:35:50 [rhiaro_]
timbl: do you think making it a live switchabe document, switching example format between json-ld and turtle is good? Or document rewritten?
09:36:04 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: I think some things like with sparql updates, some peopel won't even want to go there
09:36:23 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik: That's true
09:36:33 [rhiaro_]
deiu: sparql and ldp patch or whatever else have been added as alternatives
09:36:38 [rhiaro_]
... in addition to LDP http requests
09:36:38 [eprodrom]
My eyes just skip over those options
09:36:42 [rhiaro_]
... we should work together
09:36:53 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
09:36:53 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: make it clear we don't HAVE to use these
09:37:02 [elf-pavlik]
11:36eprodrom My eyes just skip over those options
09:37:20 [AnnB]
what do you mean, eprodrom, that your "eyes skip over those options"?
09:37:31 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: it woudl be extremely useful for LDP or this group, to have some way for any resource to be able to say I want to subscribe to this resource so you can say you want to see any changes on a document. Could be really generic
09:37:36 [claudio]
09:37:40 [rhiaro_]
... would work like activitystreams, could poitn to another collection somewhere else
09:37:44 [eprodrom]
When there's a section of SoLiD like, "Or, you could do a SPARQL query like this..."
09:37:46 [rhiaro_]
... the resource itself on the server could post notification changes
09:37:47 [eprodrom]
AnnB: ^^^^
09:37:53 [rhiaro_]
... we could solve the problem mentione don the phone
09:38:00 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: AnnB: same with me
09:38:18 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: there are discussions about this in LDPNext about being able to keep track of changes to resources and be notfied
09:38:26 [rhiaro_]
... you can have an optimal way of knowing what has changed
09:38:31 [AnnB]
does that mean it's not useful to you, or it's not actually functioninng, or ...??
09:38:33 [rhiaro_]
... instead of having to fetch the whole resource and figure it out
09:38:47 [rhiaro_]
... you can use patch format to tell you what has changed. Possible in future of LDP
09:38:57 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
09:38:57 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to say I'd like webmention to be part of vanilla LDP
09:39:13 [eprodrom]
AnnB: It's not useful to me, and mentioning it in the spec is less helpful
09:39:21 [rhiaro_]
sandro: what would solve that is if webmention were standardise and LDP incorporate that
09:39:33 [eprodrom]
09:39:39 [rhiaro_]
... assumign you can have massive webmention servers. Offloads from client and puts in normal server infrastructure
09:39:43 [Arnaud]
ack claudio
09:39:56 [KevinMarks]
PUT and PATCH are retro von Neumann worldviews
09:40:04 [rhiaro_]
claudio: from my commercial point of view, most of the use cases are around personas rather than topics
09:40:08 [KevinMarks]
POST is more general
09:40:11 [Zakim]
09:40:21 [rhiaro_]
... but we have uses cases where it's important to people to stream content, to interact over topics instead of among each other
09:40:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Zakim, mute me
09:40:22 [Zakim]
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
09:40:25 [AnnB]
so eprodrom, is that specific to rdf and sparql, or all of the linked data stuff?
09:40:36 [rhiaro_]
... If we have a streaming event like a movie, we are really interested in seeing what people are thinking about a topic
09:40:37 [eprodrom]
AnnB: it's actually more editorial about the document
09:40:55 [AnnB]
aha, thanks
09:40:56 [rhiaro_]
... we are forseeing technologies for adapting streaming content to people's mood etc. So critical to happen realtime. I wonder if these technical solutions would cover it
09:41:02 [eprodrom]
There's one clear and simple way to get a task done, then a few other options that are less clear and less simple
09:41:04 [KevinMarks]
movie's aren't streaming
09:41:09 [rhiaro_]
... As far as I understand most silos are consumer oriented. In twitter you can provide a topic and see how people react to that
09:41:20 [rhiaro_]
... We are using webRTC, there's a lot to do, to provide personalised video streams
09:41:24 [rhiaro_]
... so we need to knwo what people are thinking
09:41:27 [rhiaro_]
sandro: hashtags?
09:41:29 [AnnB]
altho I still don't truly understand the nuance of your comment
09:41:32 [KevinMarks]
2-way is streaming; movies are downloads
09:41:34 [rhiaro_]
claudio: yes but we dont' want to rely on twitter
09:41:47 [rhiaro_]
... intresting example with virtual product placement, or virtual notification of live streaming events
09:41:58 [rhiaro_]
... We are not sure we can model it with most of these decentralised solutions
09:42:15 [eprodrom]
claudio: there are two options
09:42:18 [cwebber2]
09:42:21 [KevinMarks]
hashtags are not bound to twitter
09:42:32 [AnnB]
fyi, Claudio is from Telecom Italia
09:42:33 [KevinMarks]
they span multiple models
09:42:33 [rhiaro_]
sandro: out of scope for this group
09:42:35 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme: for me too
09:42:41 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: do we have user stories that get close to this?
09:42:49 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: yeah the call quality is not good
09:42:50 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: we have a bug database that is content oriented
09:42:54 [rhiaro_]
... or one for a product
09:43:12 [rhiaro_]
... interaction on an object not on a [person] community comes around the object
09:43:29 [rhiaro_]
sandro: hashtags are harder, they don't have identifiers
09:43:43 [timbl]
timbl has joined #social
09:43:53 [rhiaro_]
claudio: we are looking at things in Telecom Italia, in talks with netflix, they're using product placement for funding content
09:43:57 [rhiaro_]
... this could be done on the fly
09:44:06 [rhiaro_]
... adaptive advertisement
09:44:20 [rhiaro_]
... customise content basedon what people are saying in realtime
09:44:22 [rhiaro_]
... this is feasible
09:44:25 [aaronpk]
yeah we really need external mics for the phone because the people on the ends of the table are super hard to hear
09:44:33 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, sorry
09:44:37 [bblfish]
this is the user story I mentioned
09:44:42 [rhiaro_]
... we rely on twitter for now because we don't have an open decentralised solution for this
09:44:47 [rhiaro_]
... I understand may be out of socpe
09:45:06 [rhiaro_]
... topics could be in the future
09:45:13 [Arnaud]
09:45:14 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme, sorry, it's my client default to use :
09:45:21 [cwebber2]
so I have to correct it constantly
09:45:23 [Zakim]
09:45:51 [rhiaro_]
sandro: we had a hashtags user stories, was -1 because it's too hard
09:46:04 [cwebber2]
I figured the scribenick made it clear
09:46:05 [AnnB]
(I called his attention to your comment, KevinMarks, about streaming vs download)
09:46:05 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: could observe if something is otu of scope and check if something might block it in the future and flag it
09:46:06 [cwebber2]
but I guess not
09:46:13 [rhiaro_]
... and we can do our best to take that into account
09:46:28 [rhiaro_]
claudio: I wonder if takign it into accoutn could make it easier if we decide we want to handle it
09:46:31 [cwebber2]
I guess it doesn't, at least, when someone takes over for scribing
09:46:33 [rhiaro_]
... I understand standardising hashtags is not easy
09:46:34 [Zakim]
09:46:36 [rhiaro_]
... or impossible
09:46:40 [rhiaro_]
... but could be valuable
09:46:40 [eprodrom_]
eprodrom_ has joined #social
09:47:00 [eprodrom_]
09:47:04 [eprodrom_]
09:47:15 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: a company taht did a bookmarking service, you could bookmark things and when you typed a word they would do a text analysis, then find dpbedia concepts and URIs that were related to concepts in the page
09:47:34 [rhiaro_]
... it looks to the user like a hashtag, but behind is the semantics of dpbedia and URIs
09:47:55 [rhiaro_]
... helps users avoid clashes
09:48:02 [eprodrom_]
Are we still talking about the media monitoring?
09:48:13 [rhiaro_]
timbl: there are some structured hashtags, some are totally random
09:48:17 [rhiaro_]
... it would be fun though
09:48:17 [eprodrom_]
Could we maybe get back to the social API agenda?
09:48:29 [KevinMarks]
autocomplete is fine, estatign the tag the user assigned isn't
09:48:41 [eprodrom_]
Arnaud, are we on-topic?
09:48:47 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: could have like
09:48:49 [eprodrom_]
I'd like to talk about SoLiD
09:48:53 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
09:49:01 [rhiaro_]
ALERT everyone's wifi passcodes are expiring
09:49:04 [rhiaro_]
stay tuned
09:49:18 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: can we go back to talking about SoLiD
09:49:39 [rhiaro_]
... concerned that notifications like webmention might be useful, but in other ones there's a more complex effect in executing a social action
09:49:46 [rhiaro_]
... eg a follow action would update the actor's following list
09:50:01 [rhiaro_]
... and distribute follow action to serveral inboxes
09:50:07 [rhiaro_]
... so I'm not sure this is just about notification
09:50:13 [rhiaro_]
... there's a lot of updates that could happen
09:50:20 [rhiaro_]
... again, it's all entirely possible to do these using polling
09:50:38 [rhiaro_]
... you could poll every list of every social graph then add reverse pointers
09:50:43 [rhiaro_]
... but much easier to get collection of people
09:50:57 [akuckartz]
akuckartz has joined #social
09:51:16 [rhiaro_]
... if we use SoLiD we're goign to have to put a lot of burden on the client which is unfair to the client and likely to generate a lot of errors
09:51:24 [rhiaro_]
... or we're going to have to limit ourselves to very simple social interactions
09:51:29 [bblfish]
09:51:31 [Arnaud]
ack cwebber
09:51:31 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: we have more examples
09:51:45 [timbl]
One could use (coincidentally) a distributed hash table for coordonating people interested in hashtags. The problem is a bit like the NNTP newsgroup distribution problem, as newsgroup names and hashtags are bothe basicallt arbitrary short strings.
09:51:58 [elf-pavlik]
09:51:58 [trackbot]
action-61 -- Pavlik elf to Create comparison of side effects approach in micropub, activitypump and solid -- due 2015-05-12 -- OPEN
09:51:58 [trackbot]
09:52:09 [elf-pavlik]
eprodrom_ let's work on documenting it together?
09:52:15 [rhiaro_]
cwebber2: I'm curious what happens in terms of how much link rot impacts this system, especially if you end up having commuincation with someone else and their whole site goes down? How does that affect yoru local record of your interaction with them? And also resolving information about that?
09:52:24 [rhiaro_]
... curious about what ends up happening when somebody else's server goes down
09:52:24 [eprodrom_]
timbl, you could also have one or more aggregation servers
09:52:43 [rhiaro_]
deiu: how is this specific to solid? will affect any decentralised service?
09:52:58 [AnnB_]
AnnB_ has joined #social
09:53:00 [KevinMarks]
hashtags converge because language converges
09:53:01 [rhiaro_]
cwebber2: if my mail server goes down you can't send me email. You still have access to all the email you have from me
09:53:06 [rhiaro_]
... and contact metadata
09:53:18 [elf-pavlik]
09:53:20 [rhiaro_]
... I'm not making a comment, this is a real question
09:53:22 [sandro]
We do have hastags:
09:53:23 [sandro]
As Evan said: -1. I think search is probably difficult to do for this API. Maybe a separate API? --Evan Prodromou (talk) 16:02, 18 February 2015 (UTC)
09:53:28 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: capturing ACTIONs
09:53:40 [rhiaro_]
sandro: we don't address that yet, the answer is to use caching proxies or archiving services where I access your site through something that keeps a copie
09:53:47 [rhiaro_]
... we need that for performance reasons too
09:53:48 [KevinMarks]
to put it another way, hashtags works precisely because they don't have namespaces; thus forcing convergence
09:53:55 [rhiaro_]
deiu: in a decentralised system, there are two ways to shuffle information around
09:53:59 [rhiaro_]
... you base it on poll or push
09:54:06 [rhiaro_]
... either you push notifications to people directly to their own servers
09:54:17 [rhiaro_]
... or you wait for them to poll your feed/outbox of notifications and everyone gets theirs when they want
09:54:31 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: interesting compatibility with AS2
09:54:42 [rhiaro_]
... you could have feed of activities which you fill in whenever an action happens on the LDP server
09:54:54 [rhiaro_]
... if a client misses a poll request they can go back to the feed and find all the changes
09:54:58 [rhiaro_]
... this might be where this is going
09:55:03 [rhiaro_]
timbl: you can convert between the two
09:55:11 [cwebber2]
thx sandro, deiu
09:55:17 [rhiaro_]
... when you know the state of some resource you can accumulate the differences
09:55:32 [rhiaro_]
... if you have a series of update messages you can generate the results
09:55:51 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: eprodrom, isn't that true for all other solutions too?
09:56:00 [rhiaro_]
... if aaron's website is down I can't access any content?
09:56:00 [cwebber2]
I think you mean me, not eprodrom_ :)
09:56:04 [rhiaro_]
... same with pumpio and activitypump
09:56:13 [rhiaro_]
... Valid question, but why make it sound like it's specific to SoLiD?
09:56:20 [rhiaro_]
... sorry I meant cwebber2
09:56:44 [rhiaro_]
cwebber2: curious because I imagine (??) sparql something ..
09:56:48 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has joined #social
09:56:51 [rhiaro_]
... you end up storing copies of communication
09:57:01 [rhiaro_]
... not sure if you do sparql queries across multiple sites
09:57:08 [rhiaro_]
... I just don't have experience with this type of infrastructure
09:57:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Arnaud, in microformats its assumed that data is copied and stored, not constantly pulled
09:57:16 [rhiaro_]
... I think there are issues when a node goes down and someone can't access
09:57:17 [deiu]
09:57:21 [eprodrom_]
09:57:28 [hhalpin]
An invited observer, Francesca Musiani, who is studying decentralized networking and internet governance as a sociologist at CNRS, has just joined us.
09:57:31 [rhiaro_]
... anyway, not tryign to challenge this, just to see if this is something that SoLiD has
09:57:36 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
09:57:36 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss capturing ACTIONs
09:57:39 [hhalpin]
09:57:50 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: quick comment. I see need that we capture more actions and put thing son wiki page as we explore things
09:58:05 [rhiaro_]
... every meeting every week we stumble on the same things from different directions
09:58:14 [rhiaro_]
... every time there is a problem make an action or put it on the wiki
09:58:19 [rhiaro_]
... it gets lost in the minutes
09:58:26 [rhiaro_]
... indiewebcamp has a good approach, we can take inspiration from that
09:58:31 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
09:58:32 [rhiaro_]
... to build up common understanding of each implementation
09:58:43 [rhiaro_]
deiu: can we make it an open issue? [caching] and think about it later? It affects every proposal
09:58:51 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: someone take action to document issue
09:58:54 [rhiaro_]
sandro: or just raise issue
09:58:55 [eprodrom_]
09:58:58 [rhiaro_]
deiu: please raise issue
09:59:11 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom_
09:59:41 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: I think the reason chris brought it up is that SoLiD is putting a lot of the burden onto the client to make sure that the state of the world is maintained
09:59:47 [deiu]
09:59:53 [rhiaro_]
... I know you're trying to concentrate on simple examples
09:59:56 [sandro]
issue: do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?
09:59:56 [trackbot]
Created ISSUE-39 - Do we need the overall system to be robust even when nodes fail?. Please complete additional details at <>.
09:59:58 [melvster]
melvster has joined #social
10:00:01 [rhiaro_]
... but I'm more interested in ones that have more complex interactions like follow
10:00:02 [Loqi]
Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]]
10:00:16 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities )
10:00:29 [rhiaro_]
... would generate a follow activity in my outbox, generate multiple follow activities in multiple inboxes, update my follows list and woudl update someone else's folllowers list
10:00:40 [rhiaro_]
... if any one of those fails, then the state of the world is out of sync
10:00:55 [rhiaro_]
... in each server is responsible for processing those actions Only one message is transmitted between servers
10:01:09 [rhiaro_]
... if evan on one server follows arnaud on another server the only notification that goes from one to the other is the activity noteification
10:01:19 [rhiaro_]
... the server doesn't try to write to arnaud's collection from even's server
10:01:28 [sandro]
10:01:28 [rhiaro_]
... that means just re-sending an activity is much easier
10:01:40 [rhiaro_]
... server's responsibility, so much easier and more reliable
10:01:46 [rhiaro_]
... can do retries
10:01:52 [rhiaro_]
... not up the client
10:02:11 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: solid have more walkthroughs
10:02:23 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
10:02:42 [rhiaro_]
deiu: SoLiD started as a general platform not social, but we are intereseted in managing notifications
10:02:48 [sandro]
q+ to answer eprodrom_ re consistency
10:02:53 [rhiaro_]
... We want any app to have a way to notify apps and other servers about changes
10:02:53 [bblfish]
10:02:56 [bblfish]
10:02:57 [rhiaro_]
... So AS2 could help us do that
10:03:05 [rhiaro_]
... which means we would have to implement some of this logic in the server
10:03:08 [eprodrom_]
That's great
10:03:09 [rhiaro_]
sandro: different answer
10:03:12 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
10:03:12 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to answer eprodrom_ re consistency
10:03:19 [rhiaro_]
... about 20 minutes ago henry mentioned idea of generic website
10:03:30 [cwebber2]
so move the side effect / notification stuff off to activitystreams, and the actual store of things on RDF / linked data?
10:03:34 [rhiaro_]
... we haven't implmemented this yet, this is speculative
10:03:39 [cwebber2]
is that what you mean deiu ?
10:04:01 [rhiaro_]
... If I follow someone we change the link to say I follow them, then there's data propagation that doesn't care about the semantics of what happened. All changes are all just data changes
10:04:11 [rhiaro_]
... haven't standardised that yet, but lots of ways to do it
10:04:22 [rhiaro_]
timbl: could be something like thermometer has just taken new temperature reading
10:04:32 [rhiaro_]
sandro: we want this to work for long tail of multi user appications, social is just 1%
10:04:47 [rhiaro_]
... doesn't necessarily mean anything to anyone in this group, but this is the background about why we're designing like this
10:04:53 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
10:04:54 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running same logic on client and server (more general clear documentation of concerns / responsibilities )
10:05:01 [AnnB]
10:05:08 [AnnB]
10:05:24 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: to give our collaboration more structure. We can't say easier/harder/worse/better - it's subjective. We should document possibilities and constraints so everyone knows the options
10:05:39 [bblfish]
10:05:40 [rhiaro_]
... We need clear way to talk about rendering, content editing, notifications, we need clear vocabulary for this
10:05:50 [rhiaro_]
... Because responsibilities can be handled elsewhere
10:06:03 [Arnaud]
ack AnnB
10:06:10 [rhiaro_]
... Don't make constraints based only on personal use cases, but document these constraints
10:06:18 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: enterprise interest is more about workflow management
10:06:21 [rhiaro_]
... than social
10:06:45 [rhiaro_]
... seems that the linked data stuff which reflects more data changes, like some travel approval comes through or some supply chain change
10:07:00 [rhiaro_]
... in Boeing we transfer every ten minutes as much data as in the library of congress
10:07:03 [hhalpin]
10:07:07 [rhiaro_]
... so the general data stuff is important to me/Boeing
10:07:14 [hhalpin]
10:07:17 [rhiaro_]
sandro: the other proposals can handle data flowing as well
10:07:22 [hhalpin]
Are we done with SoLID stories?
10:07:31 [eprodrom_]
hhalpin: I think I keep interrupting
10:07:31 [hhalpin]
Or can we move comparing SoLID to ActivityPump?
10:07:34 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
10:07:38 [eprodrom_]
Maybe we should let deiu finish
10:07:38 [hhalpin]
q- hhalpin
10:08:09 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: there's no distinction between client and server. servers can speak to servers to make these updates too, could be in the background
10:08:14 [rhiaro_]
... then we rely on REST for getting and caching resources
10:08:23 [rhiaro_]
... all the infrastructure of the web is there for us
10:08:30 [rhiaro_]
... no duplication of data because all data is at the URI that names it
10:08:45 [rhiaro_]
... so what's missing is for updates to be sent when the content changes before the cache expirey date
10:09:04 [rhiaro_]
... to say please refresh cache. At architectural level that's what missing
10:09:06 [elf-pavlik]
cache includes browser cache, social backend cache etc.
10:09:09 [AnnB]
to expand my point, we are interested in the "social" components, as well as the workflow management -- and we see relationship between the two
10:09:24 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: break for lunch, continue with user stories after lunch
10:09:33 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: some AC people have to leave at like 3?
10:09:38 [rhiaro_]
sandro: at 5, when the meeting is over
10:09:43 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: we're going straight from here
10:10:00 [eprodrom_]
rhiaro_: actually the schedule stuff is very helpful
10:10:03 [eprodrom_]
For those of us on the phone
10:10:10 [eprodrom_]
Since it's mostly inaudible
10:10:26 [eprodrom_]
rhiaro_: thanks
10:10:32 [eprodrom_]
So breaking for lunch now?
10:10:32 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: who wants a TLS session after SoLiD
10:10:43 [sandro]
10:10:45 [eprodrom_]
Thank you
10:10:55 [eprodrom_]
Sorry to be so needy :)
10:11:06 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: if people want to fit that in, we're in INRIA so we could have a TLS session
10:11:12 [rhiaro_]
... but it's out of scope for group
10:11:25 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: let's not get distracted
10:11:57 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: we should go through our agenda
10:12:02 [rhiaro_]
... two more stories for SoLiD
10:12:05 [rhiaro_]
... general discussion
10:12:08 [rhiaro_]
... comparison
10:12:20 [rhiaro_]
... once we've seen three different proposals, see what the differences are
10:12:24 [rhiaro_]
... then there are demos
10:12:54 [rhiaro_]
melvster has short demos, for more generic use cases. deiu has a specific demo
10:13:14 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: TLS thing feels too much distraction
10:13:19 [rhiaro_]
... Didn't know it came up
10:13:45 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: proposal is that once we're done with agenda, those interested can have security discussion with INRIA
10:13:46 [elf-pavlik]
+1 TLS after AC participants leave
10:13:49 [cwebber2]
hey also
10:13:50 [rhiaro_]
... *now* breaking for lunch
10:13:55 [cwebber2]
rhiaro++ for great scribing :)
10:13:58 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 74 karma
10:14:02 [aaronpk]
10:14:04 [eprodrom_]
Thanks for scribing rhiaro_
10:14:05 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 75 karma
10:14:11 [eprodrom_]
10:14:13 [cwebber2]
rhiaro is a karma accumulator
10:14:14 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 76 karma
10:14:29 [rhiaro_]
Lunch 1 hour
10:14:33 [rhiaro_]
back at quarter past
10:14:34 [Zakim]
10:15:30 [Zakim]
11:18:51 [rhiaro]
For anyone not physically present, we haven't made it back from lunch yet
11:19:19 [cwebber2]
rhiaro: ok thx
11:22:54 [tantek]
tantek has joined #social
11:25:26 [eprodrom_]
rhiaro: thanks
11:25:44 [eprodrom_]
I like that phrasing
11:25:52 [eprodrom_]
It makes it sound like we're visitors from the spirit realm
11:30:45 [Zakim]
11:30:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Zkim, mute me
11:31:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Zakim, mute me
11:31:03 [Zakim]
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
11:33:30 [eprodrom]
Are we live again?
11:33:47 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i hear nothing
11:33:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i just jumped on to see
11:35:00 [tantek]
greetings - administrivia request: I'd like to cancel next week's telcon (and suggest adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f)
11:35:39 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, there is talking again
11:36:08 [tantek]
Arnaud, eprodrom, hhalpin ^^^
11:37:22 [Arnaud]
11:38:00 [Arnaud]
tantek: what's the rationale for that?
11:38:12 [rhiaro_]
People are just drifting back in
11:38:15 [rhiaro_]
most people not back yet
11:38:56 [tantek]
Arnaud: it's a request, and typical in many WGs. Allows for more time for post-f2f async follow-ups (which there tend to be more of) before the next telcon.
11:39:03 [Zakim]
11:39:19 [cwebber2]
I didn't hear anything, but I am redialing
11:39:28 [cwebber2]
could have been my connection
11:39:33 [tantek]
Also good to acknowledge that sometimes a f2f can be tiring and giving people a week to "recover" is good too.
11:39:35 [Arnaud]
I'm open to it but not in favor of making it a rule
11:39:48 [tantek]
I don't think it's a rule in any WG - more of a custom.
11:39:56 [tantek]
So I'm proposing it as a one-off for next week
11:40:27 [tantek]
then we can get feedback from WG members about were they ok with it, appreciated it, or would have preferred having a telcon.
11:40:37 [Zakim]
11:40:38 [Arnaud]
"adopting a culture of skipping the week after a f2f" sounded like making it a rule/policy
11:40:45 [cwebber2]
Zakim, ??P0 is me
11:40:45 [Zakim]
+cwebber2; got it
11:40:47 [cwebber2]
I can hear again
11:41:03 [tantek]
Arnaud: the *and* was intended as a two part proposal
11:41:09 [Arnaud]
11:41:28 [tantek]
I wanted to provide my longerterm intentions
11:42:16 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: no?
11:42:26 [ben_thatmustbeme]
11:42:31 [cwebber2]
11:42:38 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2 haha, :P
11:43:22 [Zakim]
11:43:39 [cwebber2]
(setq erc-pcomplete-nick-postfix ",")
11:43:41 [cwebber2]
there we go
11:43:45 [eprodrom]
11:44:26 [eprodrom]
It's almost worse to hear the telecon at this point
11:44:36 [eprodrom]
IMTS the audio
11:44:50 [eprodrom]
Mostly getting rough impressions
11:44:52 [sandro]
hm? How's the audio? There are multiple conversations in the room as we haven't started yet.
11:44:57 [eprodrom]
Ah, right
11:45:26 [eprodrom]
sandro, it's pretty bad right now
11:45:41 [eprodrom]
That's great
11:46:16 [eprodrom]
I'm sorry to be so demanding about the phone
11:46:18 [tantek]
I am still in a separate meeting and cannot call in.
11:46:29 [eprodrom]
It's a lot easier when someone is scribing
11:46:45 [Arnaud]
fyi: we had lunch at a restaurant nearby that was pretty crowded and it took longer to get served than we would have liked
11:47:02 [Arnaud]
people are still slowing coming back
11:47:06 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, someone needs to scribe the ambient smalltalk! ;)
11:47:13 [eprodrom]
No problem whatsoever
11:47:25 [Arnaud]
11:47:31 [tantek]
Arnaud: PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f.
11:47:39 [cwebber2]
11:48:22 [Arnaud]
personally I think we still have issues on AS we could talk about on the telecon
11:48:53 [tantek]
we will continue to do so, and I think they could wait til the next telcon
11:48:53 [cwebber2]
I'm not against the telecon :) I just wouldn't mind the break!
11:49:04 [tantek]
cwebber2: agreed. We could use the break after a f2f.
11:49:18 [sandro]
scribe: sandro
11:49:23 [sandro]
scribenick: sandro
11:50:19 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Before we start do we want to bring up tantek's proposal?
11:50:50 [sandro]
which is, in a few words?
11:50:51 [Arnaud]
I'd rather wait to see where we end up
11:51:06 [tantek]
sandro, PROPOSAL: Skip next week's telcon as being the week after a f2f.
11:51:32 [tantek]
Arnaud, is that a -1 or a 0?
11:51:51 [Arnaud]
this is: later :)
11:51:54 [sandro]
tantek, I suggest we use it as an informal recap of the F2F, esp for people who didnt attend
11:51:55 [ben_thatmustbeme]
tantek, i think thats a postpone vote
11:52:12 [cwebber2]
informal recap could be ok
11:52:20 [eprodrom]
Sorry to say, we're behind on our deliverables and I don't think it makes sense to take a week off
11:52:22 [elf-pavlik]
11:52:30 [aaronpk]
11:52:33 [tantek]
I don't think that's a good use of sync time - recaps belong in summaries on a URL.
11:52:33 [sandro]
topic: solid walkthrough: profile management
11:52:38 [Arnaud]
I'm with evan
11:53:10 [sandro]
tantek, in my experience, these recaps are mostly discussion
11:53:13 [tantek]
eprodrom, we're only "behind" because the dates set were unreasonable and without explicit methodology as to *how* they were going to be met.
11:53:32 [tantek]
so such "we're behind" justification is a bit hollow
11:54:22 [sandro]
deiu: I'm showing my profile, using an app, which gathers the data from multiple sources, some of which are public and some are restricted-access.
11:54:34 [eprodrom]
tantek, but that's what people who run late always say
11:54:47 [tantek]
eprodrom: that's a tautology and false
11:55:07 [tantek]
I stated from the beginning that the proposed schedules were unrealistic and should be dropped.
11:55:20 [eprodrom]
Fair enough
11:55:29 [sandro]
deiu: I'm adding a phone number, and the apps asks which place I want to put it -- with different associated access control
11:55:42 [tantek]
I don't think such top-down schedules are a good way to run or motivate a working group
11:55:47 [AnnB]
AnnB has joined #social
11:55:50 [melvster]
11:56:04 [sandro]
deiu: See how in the PUBLIC version of my profile, my phone numbers don't appear
11:56:10 [cwebber2]
melvster, are you running mIRC on windows95? ;)
11:56:19 [sandro]
deiu: that is, when I'm not logged in
11:56:25 [eprodrom]
11:56:29 [melvster]
11:56:45 [kaepora]
No, you can't use a#b to scroll to a location in a JSON! I just checked! :P
11:57:02 [sandro]
deiu: the app pulls in the profile elements from different places
11:57:47 [cwebber2]
I do wish I could watch this presentation... I suppose such things are the risks you take when you attend remotely tho :)
11:57:55 [elf-pavlik]
11:57:57 [Loqi]
kaepora has 2 karma
11:58:12 [eprodrom]
cwebber2, you get what you pay for
11:58:15 [sandro]
deiu: (shows network trace, where some profiles give a 403 because he's not allowed access to those, with this identity)
11:58:29 [sandro]
11:58:35 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
11:58:40 [sandro]
deiu: (as intended)
11:59:14 [sandro]
eprodrom: The user-profile --- you use, foaf, vcard, ... why didn't you use AS2.0?
11:59:25 [sandro]
deiu: This app is older than AS 2.0
11:59:50 [aaronpk]
I don't know if this is going to work, but it might...
11:59:51 [tantek]
not older than vcard nor hCard :P
12:00:09 [sandro]
eprodrom: API surface? The client needs to pull a bunch of different data from different URLs
12:00:21 [sandro]
deiu: Yes
12:00:44 [sandro]
eprodrom: To document this API for a client developer, I'd need to document all these URLs?
12:00:52 [sandro]
deiu: No, it's just following links.
12:01:01 [AnnB]
aaronpk, I thought they said yesterday that the port (?) we need for talky is blocked at the INRIA firewall
12:01:19 [aaronpk]
I'm on a VPN
12:01:24 [sandro]
deiu: The API is just doing GETs on URLs of the resources of interest, following links. HATEOAS
12:01:48 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has joined #social
12:01:51 [sandro]
tantek, it uses vcard
12:02:03 [AnnB]
12:02:04 [elf-pavlik]
12:02:12 [hhalpin]
the rdf vcard vocabulary, which I think is compatbile with hcard
12:02:19 [elf-pavlik]
12:02:20 [AnnB]
I get to a splash screen, and no further
12:02:24 [eprodrom]
12:02:26 [Loqi]
vcard has 1 karma
12:02:40 [sandro]
timbl: Code can following multiple links, like the older version of the vocab and the newer version. So one could convert to AS2.0 gradually, with supporting the old vocabs, too.
12:02:52 [pfefferle]
pfefferle has joined #social
12:03:02 [sandro]
deiu: To build on that example, using tabulator
12:03:10 [Zakim]
12:03:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
evan did
12:03:16 [ben_thatmustbeme]
but i can hear
12:03:34 [sandro]
eprodrom, you calling back?
12:03:37 [eprodrom]
Sorry, I'm off the phone, trying to work out stuff
12:03:45 [cwebber2]
eprodrom's still on talky at least ;)
12:04:11 [eprodrom]
It's actually much better than the phone bridge
12:04:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
12:04:26 [cwebber2]
yeah it's not bad
12:04:36 [AnnB]
cool beans
12:04:42 [Zakim]
12:04:50 [elf-pavlik]
kaepora: can you please share link to resource saying that you can't do fragment URIs in JSON? a#b ?
12:05:46 [sandro]
deiu: I'm using tabulator as a generic skin to render the RDF data in my profile as HTML so it can display in the browser
12:06:31 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: note on 'server' and 'client' side rendering e.g. JSON-LD -> RDFa
12:06:32 [sandro]
deiu: I can add additional data to my profile, using a vocabulary I make up, for "hometown"
12:06:48 [eprodrom]
aaronpk: I just disabled video for that reason
12:06:53 [Zakim]
12:07:01 [sandro]
deiu: I just defined a new property, "hometown"
12:07:15 [sandro]
deiu: Now tabulator lets me set values for it
12:07:53 [sandro]
deiu: So *without programming* I was able to define a new profile property, and then apps allowed users to add it.
12:08:11 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme surprisingly so
12:08:12 [AnnB]
that's great to learn
12:08:38 [AnnB]
those who were remote at the last TPAC said same thing
12:08:50 [sandro]
elf-pavlik: something about templates
12:09:01 [AnnB]
really surprising, since the audio is just coming through the webcam
12:09:02 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, may be more to do with microphone quality than anything
12:09:27 [sandro]
deiu: Lea Verou of CSS WG is doing a PhD (at MIT) on html page templates from data
12:09:28 [ben_thatmustbeme]
also can compress the audio first, whereas phone doesn't
12:09:48 [Zakim]
12:09:52 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme it felt like there was some kind of bursting going on
12:10:42 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, yeah, the audio does sound more... muddled, its definitely not as clear but it doesn't cut in and out
12:11:03 [aaronpk]
yeah sorry the mic is pointed the opposite direction of the people so you can see the screen
12:11:07 [sandro]
tim: there are levels of customizablity, default form, styled form, js-controlled form, etc
12:11:07 [elf-pavlik]
12:11:07 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
12:12:09 [cwebber2]
sorry I seem to be having connection issues on my LAN
12:13:06 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2, is that you?
12:14:00 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #social
12:14:21 [elf-pavlik]
deiu: can you please link to more info on what you say happening at MIT in this gh-issue?
12:14:47 [kaepora]
elf-pavlik: I just created a big JSON fle and tried it locally
12:15:04 [kaepora]
elf-pavlik: I am sure you can replicate the results on your browser :-)
12:15:07 [eprodrom]
Who is scribing?
12:15:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i believe sandro was supposed to be scribe
12:15:27 [sandro]
12:15:32 [sandro]
topic: Henry does Solid walkthrough on Private SHaring
12:15:34 [elf-pavlik]
12:16:06 [sandro]
bblfish: Using webid-tls for access control, in this example
12:16:31 [cwebber2`]
cwebber2` has joined #social
12:16:50 [sandro]
bblfish: So assume Ian has a WebID (a URI that identifies as him)
12:17:10 [sandro]
bblfish: I GET Ian's "card"
12:17:26 [sandro]
bblfish: link "acl" (not registed with IANA)
12:17:56 [cwebber2]
cwebber2 has joined #social
12:18:07 [sandro]
.. goes through various headers, eg for CORS
12:18:25 [elf-pavlik]
issue including topic of rel="acl" registration
12:18:36 [sandro]
.. in this example I used turtle instead of JSON-LD, just because it was a little easier for me
12:18:48 [cwebber2]
what's the talky url again?
12:18:56 [ben_thatmustbeme]
12:19:04 [sandro]
.. shows Ian's certificate
12:19:14 [cwebber2]
thx ben_thatmustbeme
12:19:36 [sandro]
.. using cert.pem for curl demo (browser does this automatically)
12:20:22 [tantek]
elf-pavlik: don't make an issue of rel=acl registration - just go add it to the rel registry yourself per
12:20:55 [sandro]
12:21:08 [elf-pavlik]
tantek: i see not problem with you having your interpretation on that, but please note that other people interpret it differently
12:21:19 [sandro]
bblfish: Link header to acl resource
12:21:22 [sandro]
.. we GET it
12:21:33 [cwebber2]
we GET it, man!
12:21:38 [sandro]
12:21:40 [tantek]
elf-pavlik: not an interpretation - just a suggestion to you to help you take a productive step forward
12:21:53 [tantek]
12:22:03 [sandro]
12:22:51 [sandro]
bblfish: do a PATCH to add the new bit of access control
12:23:20 [sandro]
.. so the client software just allowed jane access
12:23:44 [sandro]
.. send notice to Jane
12:23:55 [Zakim]
12:24:12 [cwebber2]
Zakim, ??P4 is me
12:24:12 [Zakim]
+cwebber2; got it
12:24:35 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme: intentionally muted
12:24:49 [ben_thatmustbeme]
12:24:53 [cwebber2]
I got 3 hours of sleep between prepping user story details and waking up for this
12:24:58 [cwebber2]
I don't want to appear on webcam ;p
12:24:58 [sandro]
.. do a GET on her profile
12:25:04 [cwebber2]
but i'm on SIP now anyway
12:25:29 [ben_thatmustbeme]
yes, i know, but it looked like the camera was just covered, not muted in talky
12:26:01 [sandro]
.. In the example, I show a proposed extension to GET, to include a query, being discussed in HTTP WG
12:26:06 [eprodrom]
Thanks aaronpk
12:26:26 [Zakim]
12:26:27 [elf-pavlik]
Query link header proposal:
12:26:33 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Zakim, mute me
12:26:33 [Zakim]
ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
12:26:54 [ben_thatmustbeme]
yeah, i was losing talky sadly
12:27:06 [AnnB]
aaronpk, should I try hosting talky?
12:27:27 [sandro]
sandro: This is off topic --- we don't need queries to make this user story work
12:27:30 [AnnB]
12:27:32 [sandro]
bblfish: okay
12:28:53 [sandro]
bblfish: We get back a "ping" endpoint
12:29:20 [sandro]
bblfish: and you POST to that endpoint. *or* or use webmention
12:29:24 [eprodrom]
I think it's jumping the gun to say this is definitely WebMention
12:30:20 [sandro]
bblfish: I haven't yet looked at how webmention works
12:31:23 [sandro]
bblfish: the resource you POST to with ping should have ACLs such that you can post (append) but not read, except maybe you can edit the things you created.
12:31:37 [tommorris_]
tommorris_ has joined #social
12:32:35 [sandro]
bblfish: shows diagram, explaining bits.....
12:32:58 [aaronpk]
diagram has some typos apparently
12:33:03 [eprodrom]
12:34:05 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
12:34:32 [hhalpin_]
hhalpin_ has joined #social
12:35:10 [sandro]
eprodrom: I like this flow, it's a lot like activity pump, except the client is responsible for making that ping (where in AP it'd be the server). With fanout issues, it's probably better handled by server.
12:35:40 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: running bots on server which do client logic ...
12:35:42 [hhalpin_]
+1 just fixing a URI namespace for microformats
12:35:55 [sandro]
bblfish: Yeah, it could be the server, or some non-client-agent. Although if we want a dumb server, we need and intelligent client.
12:36:24 [sandro]
eprodrom: LDP as stupid as possible? (stupid is good here. not business intelligence.)
12:36:40 [deiu]
LDP doesn't do much by design
12:37:07 [elf-pavlik]
12:37:08 [hhalpin_]
At this point I would keep the URIs at rather than
12:37:10 [hhalpin_]
12:37:13 [eprodrom]
LDP + social stuff
12:37:19 [sandro]
sandro: as simple as possible, but no simpler
12:37:25 [deiu]
12:37:34 [deiu]
12:37:36 [sandro]
timbl: as long as the added features are application-independent
12:37:45 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
12:37:45 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss running bots on server which do client logic ...
12:38:11 [sandro]
elf-pavlik: different elements have different responsibilityies... Could have a daemon which does stuff.
12:38:14 [deiu]
elf-pavlik++ (similar to Apache modules)
12:38:17 [Loqi]
elf-pavlik has 24 karma
12:39:53 [sandro]
sandro: it's still black and white to me --- certain things are the responsibility of the client or not.
12:40:22 [sandro]
Arnaud: solid (right now) puts a lot of responsibility on the client
12:40:46 [deiu]
12:41:17 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin_
12:41:36 [eprodrom]
12:42:08 [sandro]
hhalpin: the LDP model is interesting, similar to unhosted in some ways, dependent on access control and auth, maybe
12:42:34 [eprodrom]
12:43:00 [sandro]
hhalpin: If you had a server, please store any file, it's a problem
12:43:14 [deiu]
I disagree with hhalpin_
12:43:14 [akuckartz]
hhalpin mentioned and briefly compared it to LDP
12:43:36 [sandro]
sandro: that's exactly the same with ActivityPump and MicroPub. You still need some identity and auth mechanism.
12:44:08 [sandro]
hhalpin: I think we should talk about TLS later today
12:44:10 [deiu]
you're right
12:44:50 [sandro]
sandro: I think they could each use each other's auth system
12:45:14 [sandro]
aaronpk: I think the access control is really similar, and orthogonal to this spec
12:45:29 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
12:45:33 [sandro]
Arnaud: any more about solid per se, before we get to overall similarities and differences
12:45:50 [sandro]
deiu: SoLiD is relatively new
12:45:55 [eprodrom]
12:46:11 [AnnB]
are melvster's demos related? (that we have not yet seen)
12:46:28 [deiu]
AnnB, maybe we can do those demos in the demo session
12:46:34 [eprodrom]
12:46:58 [sandro]
sandro: The LDP parts of SoLiD are stable and have lots of implementations, the other bits are very much subject to change and improvement
12:47:24 [sandro]
topic: Comparison of Proposals
12:47:59 [sandro]
Arnaud: maybe self-criticism
12:48:21 [sandro]
akuckartz: Maybe instead -- say what's good about the others
12:48:42 [deiu]
for the minutes..."What a great idea"
12:48:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
if we can get everyone authenticating to each other, that would be a really big step forward
12:49:24 [elf-pavlik]
12:49:29 [deiu]
ben_thatmustbeme, we can do that in a different WG though
12:49:40 [deiu]
as it doesn't only apply to Social
12:50:44 [rhiaro_]
scribenick: rhiaro_
12:51:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
deiu, true, I don't mean for the WG to deal with that, the socialwg is specifically avoiding choosing auth mechanism. but if we can get working those developing in the group i think will find it quite useful
12:51:08 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: micropub is only for writing. Complete picture includes webmention, PuSH and microformats
12:51:22 [deiu]
ben_thatmustbeme, I agree
12:51:37 [rhiaro_]
... We have lots working reasonably well, where there are holes are getting into propagating information about state changes of objects deep in the tree of comment threads or eg. likes on comments
12:51:47 [rhiaro_]
... we haven't built that stuff yet
12:51:47 [eprodrom]
aaronpk I think also access to the social graph (who follows Aaron? Who does Aaron follow?)
12:51:50 [rhiaro_]
... which is why I'm not sure about it
12:51:57 [rhiaro_]
... we want to figure out a better solution for that
12:52:03 [eprodrom]
And CRUD on profiles
12:52:07 [elf-pavlik]
eprodrom: we do *self* criticism :)
12:52:11 [rhiaro_]
... the way AS handles that is entirely reasonable, with activities essentially being a changelog of everything that happens
12:52:24 [rhiaro_]
... you can sync systems using changelog
12:52:40 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik thanks very much
12:52:42 [rhiaro_]
... the way I figured this out was going through the story and seeing the edge cases. Seeing at a point in the story there isn't a solid answer
12:52:52 [rhiaro_]
... whereas just glancing at the story when we were voting it looked like we could do all of it
12:52:55 [rhiaro_]
... So that was the big one.
12:53:03 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, thats a matter of publishing that information as a xfn page really. I plan to start doing that soon... following is easy, followers not so easy unless following notifies
12:53:14 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme yes
12:53:34 [rhiaro_]
... The whole formencoding and namespacing of command params with mp- in micropub works for all use cases I've encountered, but I can see where ther eare limitations, we just haven't hit them in practice yet
12:53:42 [rhiaro_]
... maybe it's better to find a solution where we don't have those limitations in the first place
12:54:14 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: any reactions?
12:54:15 [deiu]
12:54:17 [Loqi]
rhiaro_ has 77 karma
12:54:17 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik am I allowed to respond now?
12:54:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
aaronpk, i would say i started to hit at least annoyances with it for tagging people in locations in a photo
12:54:38 [deiu]
12:54:40 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 78 karma
12:54:42 [elf-pavlik]
eprodrom, ActivityPump time now so your turn -- Tsyesika speaks ATM
12:54:58 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: one thing micropub talked about is ability to get source, eg. markdown rather than html
12:55:00 [ben_thatmustbeme]
rhiaro_, loqi knows to ignore _ at the end of a name
12:55:00 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik ah, maybe my sarcasm wasn't clear enough
12:55:05 [rhiaro_]
... I'd love to introduce ability to get that source
12:55:11 [aaronpk]
ben_thatmustbeme: locations of person tags wasn't part of the story so I didn't include an example, but yes that's true
12:55:21 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik I don't like being told to shut up
12:55:26 [rhiaro_]
... So ActivityPump doesn't have that
12:55:31 [eprodrom]
12:55:39 [eprodrom]
12:55:46 [rhiaro_]
... Other thing is no ability to have multiple file uploads
12:55:51 [rhiaro_]
... And multiple steps to upload one file
12:55:55 [rhiaro_]
... [plus metadata]
12:56:13 [rhiaro_]
... One of the biggest problems I have as a developer for activitypump is that audience targeting is always on the activity rather than the object
12:56:28 [rhiaro_]
... but in reality when you're checking someone's ability to access an object when they dereference it, you really need the audience targeting on the object
12:56:40 [rhiaro_]
... it's more useful on the object than the activity. Youc an get around it with some caching, but it's not great
12:56:44 [eprodrom]
12:57:07 [rhiaro_]
... has been pointed out that there is duplication regarding post and share activities with objects, but not sure how to get around that without fundamentally changing activitystreams - which I'm not against, but might bring other problems
12:57:21 [rhiaro_]
... Plus discoverability hasn't been cemented yet
12:58:31 [cwebber2]
I think having a "source" field on notes and etc would be really nice
12:58:44 [rhiaro_]
various people: helping ann with whiteboard
12:58:45 [cwebber2]
would make editing my posts a lot easier when using pump clients that use markdown
12:58:47 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: anyone?
12:58:53 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
12:59:21 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: as part of ActivityPump spec (Jessica did a great job), I would point out that in the federation aspect it calls for using the NOTIFY verb
12:59:29 [rhiaro_]
... I'd really rather see that as a webhook style description mechanism
12:59:40 [bblfish]
Is there an HTTP NOTIFY verb?
12:59:42 [cwebber2]
12:59:45 [rhiaro_]
... Second, it has a number of activity types that are called out for how they change the state of the world
13:00:02 [rhiaro_]
... There should be some finer detail on what exactly happens when you unfollow, when there's a like, etc
13:00:27 [rhiaro_]
... Finally, to go back through and review the user stories and make sure the examples that we have (supported by pumpio)
13:00:34 [rhiaro_]
Arnaud: more interested in big gaps that need filling
13:00:45 [rhiaro_]
... every technology can have open issues, but right nown we're more interested in bigger story
13:00:47 [Arnaud]
ack cwebber2
13:00:50 [sandro]
bblfish, only if you squint
13:00:53 [Arnaud]
ack cwebber
13:00:58 [rhiaro_]
cwebber2: I agree with evan and jessica
13:01:02 [eprodrom]
13:01:09 [rhiaro_]
... One thing I admire about micropub is having a wide variety of implementations
13:01:11 [eprodrom]
That's the only reference I can find
13:01:15 [eprodrom]
oshepherd probably has more info
13:01:34 [rhiaro_]
... we have a good variety of implementations of clients, but for servers there are only and mediagoblin, mediagoblin only implements half the pump spec
13:01:44 [rhiaro_]
... with activitypump I'd like to see a spec that people *can* implement on the server side
13:02:01 [eprodrom]
13:02:04 [Loqi]
cwebber2 has 29 karma
13:02:06 [cwebber2]
13:02:10 [eprodrom]
13:02:13 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: to follow on, at lunch we [rhiaro, aaronpk, arnaud] talked about how the indieweb community have split their specs up, and it feels easier to implement
13:02:18 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: it lets you make incremental progress
13:02:26 [elf-pavlik]
13:02:37 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: with activitypump it's like you're either compliant with the spec or not, adn it's a lot of work to get that done
13:03:09 [rhiaro_]
... someone coming along wanting to make their site activitypump compliant would have a much harder time than getting started with indieweb
13:03:19 [rhiaro_]
... I don't have it on my personal site
13:03:25 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: can you explain why?
13:03:33 [eprodrom]
I don't think it's a "personal site" kind of API
13:03:38 [eprodrom]
It's a "social network engine" API
13:03:50 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: it's one big spec and it can takek time to implement it all, and it's changing a lot. It's a big investment to do it all at once, then change it
13:04:00 [aaronpk]
eprodrom, you're saying my personal website can't participate in a social network?
13:04:27 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: something fundamental that makes it impossible to do it this way in activitypump?
13:04:31 [rhiaro_]
Tsyesika: no, we can break it down
13:04:40 [ben_thatmustbeme]
it has to be able to, a personal site is a network of 1
13:04:41 [rhiaro_]
... also NOTIFY is probably going to be dropped
13:04:42 [eprodrom]
aaronpk, nope
13:05:02 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: don't want to hear sandro speak, don't need to push him to be negative about SoLiD. It means more if I'm negative, as a big defender
13:05:15 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, well, I think maybe with sufficient library'ification of activitypump
13:05:23 [rhiaro_]
... Implementing is very important, that's where indieweb community is great
13:05:24 [cwebber2]
we can hit a lot more of the "easy to implement" side of things
13:05:29 [eprodrom]
cwebber2, right
13:05:29 [rhiaro_]
... SoLiD have to learn to create communities too
13:05:32 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: i agree it's more oreiented to social network software and being a platform and such but also i think it's useful to be able to implement parts of the spec
13:05:52 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika, sure, but I'd have a hard time dividing it into pieces
13:05:52 [rhiaro_]
... Also AS and pump work is interesting, seems like there can be a mapping to solid
13:06:05 [cwebber2]
activitypump is not quite SSL in difficulty to implement, but similarly, having some good libraries like that can make things much nicer
13:06:08 [eprodrom]
Also, I think the kind of person who'd be implementing would be doing it for e.g. Diaspora
13:06:17 [aaronpk]
cwebber2, but you also have to make it really easy for other people to create libraries because you're not gonna want ot write libraries in every language
13:06:25 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, I agree
13:06:32 [deiu]
q+ to bash SoLiD a bit
13:06:41 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: i agree, it'd be tricky, i'm not sure how i'd do it to be honest but it's something i like from the indieweb and it's maybe a good idea to look into if here is anything we could do
13:06:53 [Tsyesika]
but yes we want this to work for the diasporas, facebooks, etc. of the world
13:06:54 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, I think that the activitypump spec is quite implementable as a library, but it also requires that we put more code into it
13:07:00 [rhiaro_]
... LDP is harder to implement
13:07:25 [rhiaro_]
... Once the server is done, it's done for everybody
13:07:30 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, another thing is until MediaGoblin implemented the pump api, nobody else had done that work. I think we should see if we can share our experieences to make it clearer to implement
13:07:32 [rhiaro_]
... on the client side there's lots of JS and rdf libraries needed
13:07:47 [rhiaro_]
... it's more theoretical infrastructure
13:07:48 [aaronpk]
cwebber2, eprodrom, Tsyesika, I would be interested to see what activitypump would look like broken out into small implementable steps, like what if someone could just create their inbox but wait to implement an outbox
13:08:01 [cwebber2]
I'm interested in seeing what that would look like!
13:08:03 [Tsyesika]
i'm not sure how it'd look but i think it'd be good to look into
13:08:07 [cwebber2]
aaronpk ^^
13:08:30 [rhiaro_]
... Could do work on notifications that people want in social communities
13:08:36 [eprodrom]
Yeah, so, there are ~5 endpoints defined in the activity pump doc
13:08:51 [eprodrom]
Maybe more if you count CRUD on user profiles and created objects
13:08:57 [eprodrom]
That feels pretty minimal
13:09:11 [rhiaro_]
... To give more responsibility to the server
13:09:17 [rhiaro_]
... Let server act as a client
13:09:31 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, also I'd say that a lot of the work Tsyesika is spending time on is changing the database to support migrations
13:09:37 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
13:09:37 [Zakim]
deiu, you wanted to bash SoLiD a bit
13:09:37 [cwebber2]
and I'm not sure how you can get around that complication
13:09:39 [cwebber2]
13:09:40 [aaronpk]
eprodrom, i would feel better about that if it has been demonstrated that it's pretty mininal
13:09:41 [cwebber2]
to support federation
13:09:45 [Tsyesika]
cwebber2: sure which isn't nesseserly anything to do with specs tho
13:09:50 [Tsyesika]
it's just legancy infrastructure
13:09:52 [cwebber2]
13:09:53 [cwebber2]
13:09:55 [rhiaro_]
deiu: SoLiD by definition is very generic
13:09:57 [cwebber2]
we *can* make it easier
13:09:57 [eprodrom]
Migrating from one server to another?
13:10:01 [cwebber2]
by sharing information on how we got there
13:10:02 [eprodrom]
That's such a hard problem
13:10:04 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, no, not that
13:10:06 [rhiaro_]
... it has a different view of what social means to indieweb and activitypump
13:10:11 [rhiaro_]
... especially in terms of notifications
13:10:14 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, migrations as in "sql schema migrations"
13:10:16 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: moving a database from a design not intended for federation
13:10:18 [eprodrom]
13:10:19 [cwebber2]
upgrading the table structure
13:10:19 [Tsyesika]
to a database which is
13:10:22 [rhiaro_]
... it's less focused on this definition of social, it's a bit difficult to implement the same user stories
13:10:37 [rhiaro_]
... This translates in a lot of clientside javascript
13:10:48 [rhiaro_]
... as opposed to indieweb where a lot of logic happens in the server
13:10:54 [rhiaro_]
... pages clients see are less heavy
13:11:01 [rhiaro_]
... for SoLiD there are bandwidth requirements you have to meet in the client
13:11:08 [rhiaro_]
... there's also this high-percieved learning curve
13:11:24 [rhiaro_]
... develoeprs are used to implementing apis, whereas we have a different way of managing data
13:11:32 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: i'm going to try and find some to implement a spec complient version of activitypump and i'll see what the pain points are
13:11:33 [rhiaro_]
... I think that's the biggest difference
13:11:46 [rhiaro_]
... I think it's a perceived learning curve, it's not that big a deal
13:11:50 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, anyway, I think some documents showing how to plan your database from day 1 (the easiest route!) or how to upgrade an existing system will help other developers with adoption
13:11:53 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika maybe we could work on it together
13:11:59 [cwebber2]
13:12:02 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika I want to try a new Go project
13:12:09 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: this touches the point about whether you post the activity and the server creates the post or vice versa
13:12:17 [eprodrom]
Or if you have another language you'd like to try
13:12:20 [rhiaro_]
... an activity or object centric view of the world
13:12:22 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, let's write it in guile ;)
13:12:23 [rhiaro_]
deiu: we have a data view of the world
13:12:25 [Tsyesika]
just to clarify i said you can use CRUD on existing objects nt to create new objects
13:12:27 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: more generic
13:12:29 [eprodrom]
cwebber2 cool here
13:12:34 [Tsyesika]
13:12:44 [rhiaro_]
deiu: on the plus side, if tomorrow there's going to be a completely different working group with different use cases, we might be able to help them as well
13:12:48 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: it's more flexible in that respect
13:12:57 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: sure i don't have any Go experiance
13:13:03 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika me either
13:13:08 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, Tsyesika is also learning scheme
13:13:13 [eprodrom]
Oh, cool
13:13:14 [Tsyesika]
13:13:17 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: I think we've got a set of communities that represent a learning curve that come to a full blow generalisable version of SoLiD (?)
13:13:19 [eprodrom]
We could do it in Scheme
13:13:19 [cwebber2]
now we can make a truly ivory tower version of federation ;)
13:13:22 [Tsyesika]
i've played with it on the side :)
13:13:27 [rhiaro_]
... we're all doign prety much the same thing
13:13:33 [Tsyesika]
"learning" is maybe too stronger word
13:13:41 [deiu]
eprodrom, one of our Solid servers is written in Go
13:13:45 [rhiaro_]
... requirements seem to be on one end of the spectrum, minimal technology, to the other side with maximal generality
13:13:49 [eprodrom]
deiu, cool
13:13:57 [rhiaro_]
... we can all learn from each other
13:14:07 [cwebber2]
I think this has bee a good exercise, sandro !
13:14:08 [akuckartz]
13:14:08 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: tim or sandro? or melster?
13:14:12 [deiu]
eprodrom, I wonder if you could fork it to add the pump API
13:14:14 [rhiaro_]
13:14:27 [eprodrom]
deiu, it would be an interesting exercise
13:14:30 [elf-pavlik]
13:14:31 [rhiaro_]
melvster: I was a semantic web skeptic
13:14:38 [rhiaro_]
... perceived learning curve as andrei mentioned
13:15:00 [rhiaro_]
... spent a year looking at it, adn by the end realised I could have learned it in less time, it's conceptually quite simple
13:15:09 [rhiaro_]
AnnB: Negative comment on solid?
13:15:20 [aaronpk]
Tsyesika, cwebber2, how about building an activitypump api and launch on your own websites? :)
13:15:22 [elf-pavlik]
q+ re: to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility
13:15:23 [rhiaro_]
melvster: compared to indieweb for example or ostatus, activitypump ecosystems, it's not as far advanced in terms of community
13:15:31 [elf-pavlik]
q- re:
13:15:35 [rhiaro_]
... it's not as far advanced in terms of developers or users
13:15:36 [rhiaro_]
it's early
13:15:36 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility
13:15:44 [eprodrom]
aaronpk, that's really a great idea
13:15:46 [cwebber2]
aaronpk, yes I'd like to do that
13:15:54 [eprodrom]
But I'd like to have a proof-of-concept first
13:16:01 [Tsyesika]
i fully intend to use whatever i make on my website
13:16:03 [rhiaro_]
... It's hard to document, hard to get across that it's simpler than the percieved learning curve
13:16:03 [Arnaud]
ack akuckartz
13:16:07 [cwebber2]
eprodrom, something I've thought of
13:16:10 [Tsyesika]
13:16:11 [cwebber2]
Tsyesika, also
13:16:19 [cwebber2]
maybe making something like a "Disqus" for activitypump
13:16:27 [cwebber2]
I got interested in this when I realized the endpoints can point off-server
13:16:33 [eprodrom]
13:16:34 [cwebber2]
so static publishing people can have a federation panel still
13:16:49 [eprodrom]
Yeah that's pretty cool
13:17:16 [rhiaro_]
akuckartz: you have to get in and understand what linked data is about. I'm pretty sure ibm, boeing, would be abel to do that. People who don't have those resources - is it possible to modify or restrict the proposal for SoLiD so that the implementation curve is reduced?
13:17:25 [rhiaro_]
... with the purpose of making it easy for others
13:17:29 [eprodrom]
13:17:31 [deiu]
q+ to suggest we rename SoLiD
13:17:35 [eprodrom]
I mean, why would I have to do that?
13:17:39 [hhalpin_]
13:17:39 [rhiaro_]
... who never dealt with semantic web, to adopt spec
13:17:53 [ben_thatmustbeme]
cwebber2, eprodrom, thats exactly what tantek was talking about last F2F with the desire to always support static sites
13:17:57 [eprodrom]
If I understand JSON-LD, why do I have to do my Semantic Web meditation training
13:17:59 [eprodrom]
13:18:10 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme, yes, it took me a while to understand what that meant
13:18:10 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
13:18:10 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose discussion about evolution of the whole system, extensible design and backward/forward compatibility
13:18:15 [sandro]
imho, you don't eprodrom
13:18:15 [eprodrom]
13:18:21 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme, but when I got it I got kind of excited about how to do it with activitypump
13:18:21 [eprodrom]
sandro, I don't think so either
13:18:24 [cwebber2]
hence my post about it to the list
13:18:27 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: I'd like to propose discussion about evolution of APIs, especially breaking changes
13:18:38 [rhiaro_]
... power of web by showing opening an old webpage in a modern browser
13:18:44 [deiu]
q+ tim
13:18:53 [timbl]
timbl has joined #social
13:19:03 [melvster_]
melvster_ has joined #social
13:19:05 [rhiaro_]
... could analyse apis this way, how they could be broken by certain design choices
13:19:08 [rhiaro_]
... how to avoid this in future
13:19:15 [eprodrom]
13:19:37 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
13:19:37 [Zakim]
deiu, you wanted to suggest we rename SoLiD
13:19:43 [rhiaro_]
deiu: maybe SoLiD was not the right name for this spec
13:20:04 [rhiaro_]
... We should remove the parts of the spec that aren't relevant to the workign group from the spec
13:20:14 [rhiaro_]
... we started writing the spec with a state of mind in which we wanted to document the whole thing that we were doing
13:20:17 [rhiaro_]
... that's too much at this point, for this group
13:20:22 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin_
13:20:30 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: when we were writing the charter we knew we were going to have something liek this problem
13:20:38 [Loqi]
deiu has 5 karma
13:20:40 [rhiaro_]
... most of the world using json based apis
13:20:45 [rhiaro_]
... this could change next year, I find it unlikely
13:21:09 [rhiaro_]
... the microformat html based approach has advantages, but we didnt' write this in the charter because most people want to ship around json not html
13:21:15 [rhiaro_]
... and we want to be open to enterprise use cases
13:21:22 [rhiaro_]
... we thought we'd have more enterprise membership to the group
13:21:30 [rhiaro_]
... but that's changed, we have a much more open sourced, hacker based community
13:21:39 [rhiaro_]
... on that basis, I could see revisiting json as charter requirement
13:22:04 [rhiaro_]
... in terms of rdf communities, the amount of people using json and html vs json-ld is smaller
13:22:09 [rhiaro_]
... using RDF is powerful for people who want it
13:22:17 [rhiaro_]
... I'd be concerned if we did an rdf *only* spec
13:22:27 [rhiaro_]
... json-ld was trying to fix that
13:22:46 [rhiaro_]
... I wasn't thinking about html microformats case when writing the charter
13:22:57 [rhiaro_]
... microformats2 does have json version, we could massage something there
13:23:06 [rhiaro_]
... I'm hoping json-ld plus parsing html could bridge these communities
13:23:20 [rhiaro_]
... the goal of any decentralised social web should be to bridge, we don't want three decentralised silos
13:23:25 [sandro]
13:23:42 [rhiaro_]
... ideally we don't want three different standards, we want one standard that allows the different networks and different communities to do what they want with rich communication
13:23:49 [rhiaro_]
... I'm hoping URI extensibility will help with this
13:23:56 [sandro]
q+ to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding
13:24:00 [rhiaro_]
... Charter isn't written in stone, but when I was writing it this is what I was seeing
13:24:03 [eprodrom]
13:24:06 [eprodrom]
+1 I mean
13:24:07 [rhiaro_]
... there are a number of high level things that are the same
13:24:11 [Arnaud]
ack tim
13:24:18 [eprodrom]
13:24:22 [rhiaro_]
timbl: Feeling of deja vu
13:24:29 [rhiaro_]
... back in the xml days... json is the new xml
13:24:37 [rhiaro_]
... the xml and rdf communities were born at about the same time
13:24:41 [eprodrom]
Poor rhiaro_
13:24:47 [rhiaro_]
... everyoen was commiteed to xml, and rdf should be as xml like as possible
13:24:50 [rhiaro_]
... that was a massive mistake
13:24:50 [elf-pavlik]
13:24:53 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 79 karma
13:24:54 [rhiaro_]
... rdf is simpler than xml
13:25:02 [rhiaro_]
... by trying to make an xml syntax it was horrible
13:25:06 [rhiaro_]
... should have used turtle originally
13:25:06 [eprodrom]
Actually timbl is being pretty slow-paced right now
13:25:13 [rhiaro_]
... a few companies have had similar experience
13:25:23 [rhiaro_]
... a guy said he wasted three years looking at rdf through xml glasses
13:25:34 [rhiaro_]
... so json is just a shoe-in for xml
13:25:52 [rhiaro_]
... incentive because it's used in javascript
13:26:04 [rhiaro_]
... you can't address things within a json document
13:26:07 [rhiaro_]
... something about blank nodes
13:26:19 [hhalpin_]
q- hhalpin
13:26:23 [rhiaro_]
... json is interesting, and helping people get from one to the other is interesting, but potentially counterproductive, I'm torn
13:26:29 [rhiaro_]
... try A/B
13:26:46 [rhiaro_]
... take one set of developers and give them a json world, and another set who forget json and think about core rdf model
13:26:52 [rhiaro_]
... think about that, send turtle across the wire
13:27:01 [rhiaro_]
... and you'll find yourself empowered because yoru life is simpler
13:27:07 [rhiaro_]
... can merge data streams by concatenating files
13:27:21 [rhiaro_]
... you can build any application on LDP without the store having to know anything about it
13:27:25 [rhiaro_]
... they are different philosophies
13:27:35 [rhiaro_]
... we're desinging new stuff
13:27:44 [rhiaro_]
... the number of people using json at the moment is in some ways totally irrelevant
13:27:53 [rhiaro_]
... there is ane xcited turtle community
13:28:02 [hhalpin_]
13:28:05 [rhiaro_]
... we should provide something that does not require json
13:28:09 [rhiaro_]
... and allow turtle directly
13:28:48 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: I can see there are differences that could be easily accommodated between different approaches, and combined
13:28:56 [rhiaro_]
... like content negotiation, format of data can be accommodated
13:29:02 [rhiaro_]
... solutions that support several different formats
13:29:08 [rhiaro_]
... some differences are harder to accommodate
13:29:14 [rhiaro_]
... some that use a single entry points, some more restful
13:29:21 [rhiaro_]
... this is harder, you go one way or the other
13:29:47 [rhiaro_]
... aaron and jessica acknowleged some of the other stuff can be used to learn from
13:29:53 [rhiaro_]
... there are poitns of convergance we can identify
13:30:03 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
13:30:03 [Zakim]
sandro, you wanted to suggest the contexts can bridge to microformats and form-encoding
13:30:31 [melvster_]
13:30:37 [rhiaro_]
sandro: I think having an implicit (or explicit) json-ld context, basically we can get form encoding and microformats to be json-ld
13:30:43 [rhiaro_]
... they're really close
13:30:49 [hhalpin_]
My hope is that JSON-LD could basically, with some auto-conversion on server or client side, could be the lingua franca.
13:30:54 [rhiaro_]
... then we're down to vocabulary mapping question
13:31:02 [rhiaro_]
... they're different vocabularies
13:31:03 [hhalpin_]
Vocabulary mapping can be worked out, they are not super-different
13:31:11 [rhiaro_]
... hoping one community could switch
13:31:17 [rhiaro_]
... no idea what politics of that are
13:31:18 [hhalpin_]
There seems general consensus around a HTTP REST model.
13:31:36 [ben_thatmustbeme]
getting those vocabulary difference documented would be a good step on that
13:31:37 [rhiaro_]
... Big thing about static sites being different wrt being restulf
13:31:51 [rhiaro_]
... but you could say a static site is like restful funnelled through one endpoint
13:32:00 [rhiaro_]
... if you don't do that, you can go through individual URIs
13:32:07 [rhiaro_]
... discover of that could be painful, but may be worth while
13:32:26 [rhiaro_]
... Also, seems like ActivityStreams is sending across changes in an application specific way
13:32:32 [rhiaro_]
... in the end SoLiD don't have a way to do this
13:32:49 [rhiaro_]
... but we've talked about it having an application non-specific ways to send changes
13:32:52 [rhiaro_]
... like a diff stream
13:33:00 [rhiaro_]
... don't care what kind of data, just want changes to any kind of data
13:33:06 [rhiaro_]
... my inclination is towards the generic one
13:33:23 [rhiaro_]
... curious, people who work on ActivityStreams can they consider giving up on terms like Like
13:33:33 [eprodrom]
13:33:34 [rhiaro_]
... why do you want to explicitly like something rather than just say you changed some data
13:33:40 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, yes all of us
13:33:45 [eprodrom]
Since we're publishing it as a spec
13:34:17 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
13:34:19 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: more powerful, but harder to get there
13:34:34 [deiu]
eprodrom, I'll take a stab at AS for our apps
13:34:57 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, you mean all group? indieweb has not yet really found AS2.0 to be useful, as the different philosophy of everything is a post. but I'm thinking it makes a lot more sense in the notifications sense
13:35:02 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: addressing harry's point. If you look at these three systems, if you take something like solid and remove webid requirement, add specific containers that are related to each user (folllowing, followers, favourites, ..) and you require some server side behaviour, you've got activitypump
13:35:24 [rhiaro_]
... if you favour activitystreams as main vocab and favour json-ld serialization
13:35:26 [rhiaro_]
... they are very close
13:35:32 [rhiaro_]
... the outlier is micropub
13:35:49 [rhiaro_]
... micropub is going to survive regardless
13:36:02 [rhiaro_]
... but we could do something like activitypump informed by SoLiD design
13:36:21 [rhiaro_]
... and suggest micropub as a social api for (??)
13:36:23 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, didn't mean to interrupt you, was just finishing my thought.
13:36:25 [rhiaro_]
... we canc ome out with two specs
13:36:29 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: I think evan jumped the gun
13:36:32 [hhalpin_]
13:36:54 [rhiaro_]
eprodrom: I'd rather not describe our group as three different camps
13:36:54 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets
13:36:56 [rhiaro_]
... in competition
13:36:59 [sandro]
13:37:00 [rhiaro_]
... we have to ship something
13:37:15 [rhiaro_]
... I'm not sure a competitive framework it he one we should be working
13:37:19 [Tsyesika]
I'm not so sure micropub is all that fundermentally different, after talking to aaronpk more these two days and looking at amy's work it looks like there could be some resolve a lot of our "differences"
13:37:29 [sandro]
Right -- we all have pretty much the SAME GOAL
13:37:59 [rhiaro_]
... whatever group decides, I'll hold my nose and get it done, but won't necessarily like it
13:38:08 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin
13:38:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Tsyesika, i'm very interested to hear your thoughts on that.
13:38:22 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: we weren't hoping on staying competitive
13:38:37 [rhiaro_]
... that was to force peopel to compare each other to find commanalities and differences
13:38:41 [rhiaro_]
... we're at the point where we can solve some of them
13:38:58 [rhiaro_]
... we're clearly seeing some convergance
13:39:11 [rhiaro_]
... hoping json-ld can be converted into mf or turtle
13:39:13 [ben_thatmustbeme]
theoretically if we did switch micropub to json instead of form encoded, likely as some other version of MP, how much would that change usability by the other communities?
13:39:25 [rhiaro_]
... the devil is in the detail of vocabulary alignments, link headers etc
13:39:38 [eprodrom]
13:39:43 [rhiaro_]
... In terms of what evan said about indieweb, worth noting that indiewb has the most grassroots developer adoption
13:39:45 [eprodrom]
hhalpin_: can you justify that?
13:39:57 [sandro]
13:40:06 [rhiaro_]
... One of the critques when we started this group is that w3c has tendancy to be overly complicated and drive away developers
13:40:07 [AnnB]
AnnB has joined #social
13:40:10 [eprodrom]
We have hundreds of thousands of users on
13:40:11 [rhiaro_]
... So how can we simplify what everyone is doing
13:40:16 [Arnaud]
ack melvster_
13:40:32 [rhiaro_]
melvster: we had this group a few years ago run by RMS called GNU consensus
13:40:35 [eprodrom]
I count well less that 100 using indieweb
13:40:40 [rhiaro_]
... idea was to get social web componants to talk to each other
13:40:52 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme in response, no, I mean the social web wg
13:40:57 [rhiaro_]
... tried to condense to 'hello world' use case, but it failed because no social web groups would talk to any others
13:41:05 [rhiaro_]
... now we've seen we've all solved similar use cases
13:41:14 [rhiaro_]
... can we get all groups to focus on a minimal use case to talk to each other
13:41:26 [sandro]
eprodrom, be what about number of implementations? I think that's IWC's claim.
13:41:30 [rhiaro_]
hhaplin: we already have use cases
13:41:37 [rhiaro_]
melvster: for test suite
13:41:42 [rhiaro_]
aaronpk: that was the goal of creating SWAT0
13:41:48 [eprodrom]
sandro, yes, and if we go by whether a spec has odd or even number of characters in it, I think SoLiD wins there
13:41:57 [rhiaro_]
hhaplin: ideal situation we have api and common data format and we use that for common use cases
13:42:00 [rhiaro_]
melvster: can we test it?
13:42:02 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: yes we will
13:42:11 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: part of the process is creating a test suite and showing interop
13:42:20 [rhiaro_]
melvster: by the next f2f?
13:42:31 [eprodrom]
sandro, although I think we might have more clients than there are implementations of the indieweb stuff
13:42:34 [eprodrom]
13:42:37 [rhiaro_]
bblfish: we should implement these stories
13:42:54 [eprodrom]
13:43:04 [rhiaro_]
hhalpin: goal of standardisation workgroup is to produce a standard, not to have a nice time and learn from each other
13:43:20 [rhiaro_]
... if we produce a standard we fail, or produce a standard with low adoption or contradictory standards, also fail
13:43:34 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
13:43:34 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose convergence driven by queries on the (social) datasets
13:43:35 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: we're nowhere near there yet
13:43:48 [rhiaro_]
elf-pavlik: we haven't moved much on querying or accessing data
13:43:56 [rhiaro_]
... evan mentioned with indieweb you can't get social graph and relationships
13:44:09 [rhiaro_]
... from the resulting data, we can derive requirements of api
13:44:17 [rhiaro_]
... with linked data, by following your nose you do it in the same way
13:44:21 [bret]
Is there a Zakim or tally room?
13:44:22 [rhiaro_]
... could be some interesting ways of approach resulting dataset
13:44:28 [hhalpin]
It can work, we have seen this with WebCrypto where we got every browser implementing the same crypto API despite underlying differences (NextGen Crypto API, NSS, ec.)
13:44:31 [rhiaro_]
... then find some common ground
13:44:43 [rhiaro_]
arnaud: break until the hour
13:45:03 [Zakim]
13:45:04 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, huh? perhaps i should rephrase, how many have actually implemented and are publishing an AS2.0 stream
13:45:24 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, to what point?
13:45:26 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme, the spec isn't even out yet
13:45:32 [eprodrom]
That it doesn't matter because it's not implemented?
13:45:38 [eprodrom]
We're publishing it. It's our job to ship it.
13:45:44 [Arnaud]
zakim, who's on the phone?
13:45:44 [Zakim]
On the phone I see ??P2, cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme (muted)
13:45:54 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #social
13:46:02 [hhalpin_]
I sould assume we will be implement AS2.0
13:46:06 [eprodrom]
It's ridiculous that we'd turn up our nose at the spec that we are producing and saying it's not good enough because it's not implemented.
13:46:08 [hhalpin_]
if we don't, we should not ship it as a spec
13:46:15 [eprodrom]
Or we should fix it
13:46:17 [hhalpin_]
However, it's still quite early
13:46:32 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, indieweb philosophy is to work out an implementation that works, then spec around it. I'm not suggesting that. I'm saying implment it too
13:46:33 [hhalpin_]
I think we will have a problem if in a year from now there aren't AS2.0 implementations
13:46:49 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, right, I understand that.
13:46:51 [ben_thatmustbeme]
before the spec is done, because you will never have a spec finished unless you start implementing
13:46:59 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, I totally agree
13:47:00 [hhalpin_]
Re the indieweb approach, I tend to agree
13:47:38 [eprodrom]
On the other hand, I don't like to implement things multiple times
13:47:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
i was just trying to see who is publishing as2.0 streams NOW, as they can better make statements about where it is and isn't useful
13:48:05 [eprodrom]
I especially don't like to put my users through a lot of incompatibility pain
13:48:30 [eprodrom]
"Sorry, I implemented an intermediate version of the spec, now all your feeds are broken."
13:48:30 [ben_thatmustbeme]
eprodrom, doesn't mean it has to be on a large system, but you still need some sort of system to test it
13:48:36 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme, I agree
13:49:11 [ben_thatmustbeme]
direct question, do you have a published intermediate version of an AS2.0 stream? that I can right now try to consume
13:49:20 [eprodrom]
No I do not
13:49:30 [eprodrom]
But there are test versions in the test repo
13:49:36 [eprodrom]
Which might be good for you to start with
13:50:09 [ben_thatmustbeme]
okay, so If i start playing with implementations, I'm not looking at anything else. So I may end up with a lot of suggestions for changes on the MF2 version of it
13:50:44 [eprodrom]
sandro, blunt question
13:51:05 [eprodrom]
Is SoLiD just CrossCloud rebranded?
13:51:10 [eprodrom]
The name slipped earlier
13:51:27 [eprodrom]
I don't think that's a bad thing but I'm kind of confused by the whole 'keep it general for all kinds of apps' thing
13:51:48 [eprodrom]
I reallllly think CrossCloud is a great idea
13:52:17 [Zakim]
13:52:52 [ben_thatmustbeme]
general question that i asked and i didn't see any response... if I wrote a MP client that posted with json data instead of form encoded, would that be more interesting to compatibility building? what would still be lacking? argue points better or worse, etc
13:53:27 [Arnaud]
zakim, call inria-bridge
13:53:27 [Zakim]
ok, Arnaud; the call is being made
13:53:29 [Zakim]
13:53:42 [eprodrom]
13:53:56 [eprodrom]
I'm OK
13:53:59 [eprodrom]
Just a lot of beeps
13:54:01 [Zakim]
13:54:10 [Arnaud]
we had to reconnect the bridges
13:54:14 [Arnaud]
we're on a break
13:54:17 [akuckartz]
ben_thatmustbeme: We are still having a break.
13:54:23 [eprodrom]
13:54:27 [ben_thatmustbeme]
Arnaud, yes
13:54:29 [Arnaud]
13:54:34 [Arnaud]
13:54:35 [eprodrom]
Thank you
14:09:04 [Tsyesika]
eprodrom: i'll try and get these issues worked through and then we should work on a basic implementation
14:09:34 [Tsyesika]
makes no sense with all those open issues
14:09:50 [bblfish]
bblfish has joined #social
14:10:35 [bblfish]
14:11:01 [cwebber2]
I'm interested in collaborating on a basic implementation, and am flexible on what language
14:11:08 [cwebber2]
as long as not php ;)
14:11:16 [Tsyesika]
i'm flexable on language too
14:11:25 [Tsyesika]
but it looks like the issues on it atm will cause a big chnge
14:11:27 [Tsyesika]
14:11:44 [Tsyesika]
if eprodrom wants to try out go it's all good for me
14:11:46 [rhiaro_]
did we get a scribe yet?
14:12:16 [eprodrom]
Tsyesika: let's see how the conversation goes today
14:12:26 [bblfish]
Topic: next meetnig
14:12:40 [Tsyesika]
14:12:57 [bblfish]
Arnaud: advantages of continuing next week is that we should keep the momentum
14:12:58 [eprodrom]
14:13:02 [aaronpk]
whiteboard photo:
14:13:04 [rhiaro_]
scribenick: bblfish
14:13:17 [eprodrom]
Nice handwriting
14:13:43 [bblfish]
Arnaud: we could have a debriefing meeting next week
14:14:02 [bblfish]
Arnaud: anyone objects to not canceling next meeting?
14:14:10 [bblfish]
Resolve: Continue next week
14:14:20 [bblfish]
RESOLUTION: Continue next week
14:14:45 [akuckartz]
14:14:47 [Loqi]
aaronpk has 796 karma
14:15:01 [aaronpk]
q+ to talk about authentication in the APIs
14:15:02 [bret]
Thanks for the whiteboard photo
14:15:09 [bblfish]
Arnaud: severaly way we could imagine resolving the differences. We should discuss the strategy
14:15:10 [bblfish]
14:15:11 [bblfish]
14:15:27 [bblfish]
Arnaud: we could just continue resolving issues
14:15:45 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories
14:15:50 [aaronpk]
better photo:
14:16:03 [bblfish]
Arnaud: or we could just bite the bullet and go from there.
14:16:17 [AnnB]
AnnB has joined #social
14:16:17 [Arnaud]
ack aaronpk
14:16:17 [Zakim]
aaronpk, you wanted to talk about authentication in the APIs
14:16:19 [eprodrom]
14:17:02 [bblfish]
aaronpk: differences between our API and jessica, we could arrive at a compromise and explore that possibility. WE need to look at this more. We now can see how things are similar and different
14:17:49 [bblfish]
aaronpk: also we could make a point about authentication: it appears that all three APIs use verifiers with tokens, we could leave the way to get the token out of the API, and leave that for the next API.
14:18:31 [elf-pavlik] ?
14:18:35 [hhalpin]
hhalpin has joined #social
14:18:37 [hhalpin]
14:19:25 [deiu]
14:19:27 [Loqi]
rhiaro has 80 karma
14:19:55 [bblfish]
aaronpk: I was surprised to see a lot of convergence
14:20:01 [rhiaro_]
14:20:02 [Loqi]
commonground has 1 karma
14:20:03 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
14:20:09 [AnnB]
that's the reason to have F2F meetings!
14:20:24 [rhiaro_]
note, sandro just indicate he sees common ground between SoLiD and micropub
14:20:29 [rhiaro_]
so that's the full triangle :D
14:20:30 [elf-pavlik]
bblfish: to common ground seams to be notion of container and posting to containers
14:20:35 [AnnB]
people work stuff out more easily when actually in person ... not to mention with pizza, sushi, wine, beer ...
14:20:52 [AnnB]
triangles are the strongest foundation
14:20:53 [elf-pavlik]
14:21:06 [elf-pavlik]
bblfish: also some use POST everything
14:21:13 [elf-pavlik]
... maybe some mapping would allow finding common ground
14:21:34 [akuckartz]
14:21:36 [Loqi]
convergence has 1 karma
14:22:07 [elf-pavlik]
... i see common understanding that thanks to JSON-LD we can think in RDF level and still people can use it as plain JSON
14:22:48 [elf-pavlik]
... one can consider AS2.0 as cristalization of RDF (rel to article bblfish wrote year ago)
14:23:01 [elf-pavlik]
14:23:19 [elf-pavlik]
bblfish: we should automatically find a way to produce it on LDP servers
14:23:34 [cwebber2]
14:23:36 [Loqi]
full_triangle has 1 karma
14:23:55 [elf-pavlik]
... i can with my tools in very generic way and at the same time people who don't want to use those tools (yet) they can still interoperate
14:24:02 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
14:24:02 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to propose continue with showing implementation of User Stories
14:24:30 [bblfish]
I mentioned RDF: crystalisation here:
14:25:09 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
14:25:19 [bblfish]
elf-pavlik: we should write implementations of the top uses cases and get feedback by doing that.
14:25:56 [aaronpk]
evanpro: i feel like we're stretching the amount of time we're getting out of this community to begin with, the idea that we'd write multiple implmenenations for hte contiually iterating different standards, and spend time evallutaing them and figuring it out...
14:26:04 [aaronpk]
evanpro: i'd rather put that time towards a single standard
14:26:08 [AnnB]
14:26:11 [aaronpk]
... rather than splitting that time among multiple standards
14:26:22 [aaronpk]
... i'm not sure this convergence is going to get easier
14:26:33 [bblfish]
14:26:43 [aaronpk]
... i feel like we've already put off this decision once, we need to start coming down to what the social apis are going to be if expect to ship it by the end of the year
14:27:01 [aaronpk]
... i'm sure that our friends here on w3c staff are optimistic about having our charter renewed
14:27:03 [deiu]
Isn't that a bit premature?
14:27:12 [aaronpk]
... i'm not sure i have the mental capacity to continue doing this if we never actually come out with results
14:27:24 [bblfish]
evanpro: we need to bite the bullet fast, or else the charter can be completed
14:27:35 [sandro]
Don't we have 20 months left?
14:27:39 [aaronpk]
... my feeling is there is some urgancy, we probably need to make some tough decisions
14:27:39 [bblfish]
14:27:51 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: we are not expiring at the end of this year, at the end of 2016
14:28:00 [eprodrom]
Thanks for the correction
14:28:00 [aaronpk]
... i agree we don't want to waste time, but it's also not as critical as you just described
14:28:02 [eprodrom]
Yes, 2016
14:28:03 [sandro]
14:28:13 [aaronpk]
... to have a recommendation by the end of next year, we better have a solid proposal by the end of this year
14:28:25 [aaronpk]
... there's still a lot of work
14:28:36 [aaronpk]
.... i agree by the end of this year we'd beter have a good idea of what this looks like
14:28:37 [bblfish]
14:28:37 [Arnaud]
14:28:43 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin
14:28:49 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation
14:29:13 [aaronpk]
hhalpin: next steps: from each of the three communities, we should choose an author from each comunity
14:29:20 [aaronpk]
... to help filter to an editor a draft editor
14:29:28 [aaronpk]
... or two editors, who is neutral, not in any of the camps
14:29:36 [aaronpk]
... to try to push a converged document out
14:29:39 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
14:29:39 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention that current drafts already start or even address federation
14:29:41 [bblfish]
@hhalpin wants to operationalise what evan said. Next step: from the three communities we should choose an author from each community one or two draft editors, to push a draft document out to see if we can get consensus
14:30:09 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: it seems that some of the candidates addressed federation
14:30:22 [bblfish]
@elf-pavlik the federation may be part of the API so it may not be that much work
14:30:24 [aaronpk]
hhalpin: we probably won't be able to include federation
14:30:32 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: or maybe we'll have it beacuse it's built in
14:31:20 [bblfish]
@hhalpin one author: the author writes a lot of the text, and the editors does ?
14:31:53 [aaronpk]
hhalpin: you need at least one neutral person who doesn't really care to help balance out arguments that arise
14:32:08 [aaronpk]
AnnB: the reason i'm asking is after dec 11 i'm free, and i'm a good editor
14:32:28 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: to get back to the point, the proponents seem to be in agreement to give people a bit more time to choose a starting point, to experiment a bit further
14:32:34 [hhalpin]
JSON-LD has the author/editor distinction -
14:32:37 [akuckartz]
14:32:46 [aaronpk]
... i'm in favor of doing this , because i rather we start with a more constricted approach rather than saying so and so is winning
14:32:47 [AnnB]
I will not have time before I leave Boeing ... but can probably help edit after I leave
14:32:49 [hhalpin]
Or just all editors, but we need at least one neutral person in case there are severe disagreements
14:32:57 [hhalpin]
Also, we need to see what the implementation commits are
14:33:07 [aaronpk]
... there is value in holding off for a little more
14:33:12 [sandro]
14:33:16 [aaronpk]
14:33:19 [Arnaud]
ack akuckartz
14:33:20 [eprodrom]
14:33:32 [bblfish]
@Arnaud prefer to work towards a more constructive approach, so there is value to holding off a little bit more. Agree that it is unrealistic to have everybody make three implementations.
14:33:33 [aaronpk]
akuckartz: would it be possible to start with writing what is accepted as common ground?
14:33:45 [bblfish]
@akuckartz would it help to work out what the common ground is ?
14:33:55 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F
14:33:59 [pfefferle]
pfefferle has joined #social
14:34:25 [ben_thatmustbeme]
I have to go... headed to the ER
14:34:26 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik: do any of these proposals not do that?
14:34:34 [eprodrom]
Or is that just a point of commonality?
14:34:34 [cwebber2]
how about rhiaro? :)
14:34:39 [aaronpk]
AnnB: what about making an outline? fill in the bits that are known now
14:34:41 [ben_thatmustbeme]
these kids don't want to stay in her
14:34:43 [eprodrom]
14:34:45 [Loqi]
rhiaro_ has 81 karma
14:34:57 [aaronpk]
akuckartz: maybe start with a wiki page and collect the common ground
14:35:00 [elf-pavlik]
+1 rhiaro if she would like to take on this challenge
14:35:02 [Arnaud]
ack sandro
14:35:27 [aaronpk]
sandro: i dont think the editors need to be neutral, they just need to be enthusiastic about whatever happens
14:35:49 [bblfish]
@sandro: don't think that the editors need to be neurtal, but they need to be enthusiastic about what happens. They have to do what the working group decides
14:35:56 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme WOW! Go do that!
14:36:05 [ben_thatmustbeme]
yeah, so I'm off
14:36:14 [cwebber2]
ben_thatmustbeme, wow, good luck!
14:36:16 [eprodrom]
ben_thatmustbeme It's gonna be great!!!!
14:36:18 [hhalpin]
14:36:30 [bblfish]
... how do we handle syntaxes.
14:36:51 [hhalpin]
HTTP REST(ish), common vocabulary (re microformats and ActivityVocab), and fix the HTTP headers so they are common
14:37:07 [Arnaud]
ack aaronpk
14:37:20 [bblfish]
@Arnaud if there are issues that can be expressed independently of the implementation, that can be addressed
14:37:38 [eprodrom]
concrete steps with deadlines++
14:37:40 [cwebber2]
could we have a prototypes deadline?
14:37:46 [cwebber2]
14:38:21 [Zakim]
14:38:26 [bblfish]
@aaronpk to avoid the issue of endless postponing lets have some deadlines
14:38:35 [bret]
Zakim, ??P7 is me
14:38:35 [Zakim]
+bret; got it
14:38:38 [bret]
Zakim, mute me
14:38:38 [Zakim]
bret should now be muted
14:39:04 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
14:39:10 [bblfish]
14:39:35 [aaronpk]
evanpro: what i'd like to get an idea of is what we think would be some changes in the state of the WG now that would show us that we're movign forward
14:39:36 [cwebber2]
14:39:42 [bblfish]
eprodrom: what would be some changes to the state of the working group that would show us moving forward.
14:39:53 [bblfish]
14:40:02 [aaronpk]
.. concerned about jessica not having time to keep editing the AP doc
14:40:14 [aaronpk]
.. or the solid people drop out because there's a new version of java it can't run on
14:40:14 [deiu]
14:40:26 [bblfish]
... what are the changes that happen that we get going further?
14:40:27 [aaronpk]
.. i'm more cocerned about what are the change that happen that make us sure we're going further
14:40:29 [bblfish]
14:40:52 [aaronpk]
.. i'm not sure there's a clear positive way forward, is it that we create a SoLiD/actvitypump/micropub spec?
14:41:09 [aaronpk]
.. is it we find something that's the olowest common demoninator (which right now HTTP)
14:41:19 [aaronpk]
.. what will the change be next time we sit down in japan
14:41:21 [bblfish]
.. I don't know that there is a clear way forward? Is that we create a spec with the lowest common denominator which I think is HTTP at present. How do we see the way forward?
14:41:26 [deiu]
14:41:29 [aaronpk]
.. the only change i see that is likely is that we lose members and lose interest
14:41:32 [deiu]
14:41:38 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: maybe we have different perceptions
14:41:38 [bblfish]
.. the only change I see is likely is that we loose members and move forward
14:41:45 [aaronpk]
.. because you're missing out on being at the meetingand at lunch
14:41:54 [aaronpk]
.. my feeling is there's a lot of common ground and recognizing this and seing ways of converging
14:41:55 [deiu]
q+ to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator
14:41:56 [rhiaro_]
It's come through that people care a *lot* this last couple of days
14:42:08 [rhiaro_]
Hopefully we're past worrying about falling apart now!
14:42:20 [bret]
Generate 3 specs and let the best spec win? ;)
14:42:24 [aaronpk]
.. we can use every week to say how's that going
14:42:25 [cwebber2]
setting a deadline on that checkpoint is a good idea
14:42:33 [bblfish]
@bret bad idea ...
14:42:35 [aaronpk]
.. it's a bit pessmiistec right now to say we're going to waste time and lose members
14:42:41 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
14:42:41 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to mention we already agreed for 'follow your nose' during last F2F
14:42:42 [hhalpin]
14:42:51 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: i'll try to experiment with different workflows to work between telecons
14:42:57 [aaronpk]
.. i see github and irc very practical
14:43:03 [elf-pavlik]
14:43:14 [aaronpk]
.. also for writing the document, trying to capture following the nose idea
14:43:32 [Zakim]
14:43:42 [bret]
ack lost connection :(
14:43:52 [Loqi]
aww, cheer up
14:43:56 [Arnaud]
ack hhalpin
14:43:57 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: we're quickly running out of time
14:44:01 [Zakim]
14:44:11 [aaronpk]
hhalpin: one way to focus the group would be to not raise as many issues, because issues take a lot of time to reseolve
14:44:20 [cwebber2]
+1 on that
14:44:22 [aaronpk]
... especailly RDF issues, which take a lot of time and are of limited relevance to everyone
14:44:28 [aaronpk]
.. allow the editor to have discretion
14:44:38 [aaronpk]
.. if people are really upset about that, let'sd do it on an issue-by-issue basis
14:45:01 [aaronpk]
.. second thing is in terms of authentication, we need to have a generic, i think the bearer token comment was en point
14:45:11 [aaronpk]
.. the w3c will liekly be starting a web authentication working group in the fall
14:45:18 [aaronpk]
.. the work is pretty baked already, around fido
14:45:23 [aaronpk]
.. we need to keep that out of scope
14:45:41 [aaronpk]
.. in terms of next steps, i'm happy to have aaron and jessica work and maybe someone from SoLiD
14:45:46 [Arnaud]
ack cwebber
14:45:47 [aaronpk]
.. but two or three people need to take responsibiltiy for converging
14:46:07 [aaronpk]
cwebber2: i think having aaron and jessica and osmone from solid try to find what the common ground is is a great idea
14:46:11 [Zakim]
14:46:21 [bret]
Zakim, ??P5 is me
14:46:21 [Zakim]
+bret; got it
14:46:37 [bret]
Zakim, mute me
14:46:37 [Zakim]
bret should now be muted
14:46:40 [aaronpk]
.. it seems like a lot of progress happened in this f2f whereas the last one the message was implementations win but we were going to end up rubber stamping somehing we already had
14:46:47 [rhiaro_]
I agree with cwebber2
14:47:03 [aaronpk]
.. maybe after these converstaions happen, we can start to establish what are the prototype implementation goals
14:47:29 [aaronpk]
.. i do agree we should be moving into implementation phase pretty soon
14:47:35 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
14:47:49 [aaronpk]
bblfish: i think these 3 groups are woring in different layers, so it's quite easy to get them to agree if we understand the different layers
14:48:08 [aaronpk]
.. as i was saying earlier, the container stuff is a container, what i'm seeing from activitystreams is a certain vocab which has certain side effects
14:48:16 [aaronpk]
.. it's kind of a specialized convtainer which does special things
14:48:29 [aaronpk]
.. turns out most of it has been already written
14:48:38 [elf-pavlik]
container ~= endpoint?
14:49:00 [aaronpk]
.. i disagree with harry about the rdf vocab, if we can think about the modeling correctly, we'll be able to narrow down much more quickly
14:49:16 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
14:49:16 [Zakim]
deiu, you wanted to mention "browsing the social graph" as the common denominator
14:49:36 [aaronpk]
deiu: we're talking about the smallest common denominator, but we haven't really decided how to model basic things
14:49:39 [aaronpk]
.. like users and identities
14:49:47 [aaronpk]
.. so how to we get to see and browse each other's social graph
14:50:12 [eprodrom]
What about AS 2.0 vocabulary?
14:50:17 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: it'd be useful as a first step to list capabilities and features that we want to have
14:50:27 [aaronpk]
.. it would go along the lines of having an outline of what we want the spec to cover
14:50:45 [aaronpk]
.. we've seen through the deep dives we made there's a certain operation we expect to be able to have
14:50:50 [cwebber2]
a question is, how will that be different from user stories?
14:50:52 [aaronpk]
.. what are the basic blogs we need ot have for this api
14:51:00 [aaronpk]
.. not getting into the details of what the blocks look like
14:51:00 [cwebber2]
will this be a shared technical requirements requirements?
14:51:01 [eprodrom]
14:51:03 [deiu]
14:51:05 [deiu]
14:51:11 [eprodrom]
14:51:18 [aaronpk]
.. one of the features of the indieweb is the modular approach
14:51:19 [eprodrom]
14:51:27 [aaronpk]
.. we don't start building a big spec, we define little specs with different modules
14:51:34 [aaronpk]
.. wecan experiment and argue over those different blocks
14:51:40 [Arnaud]
ack deiu
14:51:43 [bblfish]
14:52:01 [aaronpk]
deiu: classifying all these items would also allow us to see whether some of them are relevant or not
14:52:07 [aaronpk]
.. which means we might be able to remove some of the work ahead of us
14:52:18 [elf-pavlik]
q+ to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections)
14:52:26 [Arnaud]
ack eprodrom
14:52:57 [aaronpk]
eprodrom: two questions. the idea that we're trying to define the basica building blcoks, isn't that what the user stories were for?
14:53:07 [bblfish]
14:53:13 [aaronpk]
.. if there's really a lot of question about syntax/strucre, do we need to stop our effort on AS2.0?
14:53:15 [hhalpin]
syntax is JSON-LD with pre or post-processing
14:53:20 [deiu]
q+ to mention that implementing the user stories requires establishing boundaries
14:53:23 [aaronpk]
.. my understanding was we were going to publish AS2.0 as the social data syntax
14:53:28 [elf-pavlik]
14:53:28 [hhalpin]
unless there are serious objections
14:53:28 [trackbot]
issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates and efforts -- closed
14:53:28 [trackbot]
14:53:31 [aaronpk]
.. if we are not in agreement, do we abandon that effortt?
14:53:41 [hhalpin]
In terms of the vocabulary, we just need to map those replications
14:53:46 [cwebber2]
I agree with Evan that both we have AS 2.0 anyway, and also wondering what the difference this would be from user stories
14:53:52 [cwebber2]
I really don't want to go through a user stories thing again
14:54:09 [sandro]
14:54:11 [aaronpk]
.. seems like we need to move the AS2 effort forward, and if we're questioning that, we need to steb back and re-evaluate
14:54:22 [rhiaro_]
AS2 isn't set in stone right? even if it's not right yet, we can change it to make it better
14:54:27 [rhiaro_]
rather than starting over
14:54:31 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: the user stories don't define functional blocks
14:54:36 [aaronpk]
.. they inform you as to what they might be
14:55:03 [aaronpk]
.. with regard to the social API, i don't think anyone has been arguiing to drop AS2.0
14:55:13 [aaronpk]
.. so if we throw that out, we'd be that much closer to the situation harry was describing
14:55:25 [cwebber2]
PROPOSAL: All specs put forward by the group require AS 2.0 :)
14:55:31 [aaronpk]
.. but in fact, we've even heard that aaron, who makes no use of AS2 today said he'd have a use for it
14:55:35 [aaronpk]
.. so let's not be too dramatic about this
14:55:54 [deiu]
14:55:56 [Arnaud]
ack elf-pavlik
14:55:56 [Zakim]
elf-pavlik, you wanted to very shortly mention extensibility e.g (currently ActivityPump only supports Follow and Like action + relevant collections)
14:56:07 [aaronpk]
elf-pavlik: we didn't get to talk abotu extensibility today
14:56:10 [aaronpk]
.. solid is super extensible
14:56:15 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik, INCORRECT
14:56:17 [aaronpk]
.. activitypump defines some actions but isn't extensible
14:56:23 [eprodrom]
That's not true at all!
14:56:36 [aaronpk]
.. indieweb has some vocab dilemmas, what do i do if i get terms i don't know how to render
14:56:47 [hhalpin]
+1 extensibility
14:56:47 [Arnaud]
ack bblfish
14:56:50 [hhalpin]
-1 discussing it endlessly
14:57:06 [hhalpin]
We have URI-based extensibility which should work with ActivityPump as is
14:57:08 [eprodrom]
"8.2 Activities The core of any [ActivityStreams] based protocol is activities within. Users post activities to their outbox, from which they are distributed to recipients' inboxes. ActivityPump places no restrictions on the activities which may be distributed; however, it defines certain activities with special behaviors"
14:57:10 [aaronpk]
bblfish: if we can reuse as much existing technology, ontologies, then we can get out a whole bunch of problems
14:57:11 [rhiaro_]
14:57:12 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik ^^^
14:57:13 [Loqi]
implementation has 2 karma
14:57:15 [aaronpk]
.. i was just loking at
14:57:16 [hhalpin]
Micropub has mp-
14:57:17 [hhalpin]
14:57:21 [aaronpk]
.. then i understood what they were doing
14:57:26 [hhalpin]
we have URI based extensibility and the ActivityVocabulary
14:57:34 [aaronpk]
.. so maybe we can get to the core, specify the key integration points and reduce our workload
14:57:36 [hhalpin]
just see what points there are overlap with ActivityVocabulary
14:57:41 [sandro]
eprodrom, it'd be good if you could give us a walkthrough of that. How does an enterprise do travel-authroization (the example that came up yesterday) over activitypump?
14:57:42 [aaronpk]
Arnaud: i'd like to close the meeting
14:57:44 [hhalpin]
Not superhard.
14:57:45 [aaronpk]
.. i think we made good progress
14:58:02 [aaronpk]
.. if nothing else, sharing a lot more understanding, which is critical to being able to converge
14:58:04 [eprodrom]
sandro, sure, I'd love to
14:58:07 [aaronpk]
.. so i hope we can buildon that and continue
14:58:18 [aaronpk]
.. i would like people to seriously consider if they are up to being an editor or not
14:58:28 [aaronpk]
.. we don't want people to volunteer unless they are 100% committed
14:58:36 [aaronpk]
.. if you get in the way it's not going to help
14:58:52 [aaronpk]
.. it's not just editing the document, it's keeping track of the resolution...
14:59:00 [aaronpk]
.. answering public comments
14:59:09 [aaronpk]
.. i'm not trying to discourage people , just want to make sure they know what it takes
14:59:16 [eprodrom]
jasnell does a lot of work
14:59:21 [aaronpk]
14:59:25 [eprodrom]
14:59:27 [Loqi]
Arnaud has 16 karma
14:59:47 [eprodrom]
elf-pavlik yes?
14:59:55 [eprodrom]
15:00:11 [eprodrom]
What are you trying to say?
15:00:55 [Zakim]
15:00:57 [elf-pavlik]
eprodrom, we all had amazing meeting here and see a lot of potential to move forward
15:01:22 [elf-pavlik]
i have impression that remotely you might miss some context and i get impression of you grumpy side
15:01:31 [Zakim]
15:01:45 [Zakim]
15:20:55 [elf-pavlik]
15:30:37 [elf-pavlik]
15:35:10 [Zakim]
15:35:11 [Zakim]
Team_(socwg)07:29Z has ended
15:35:11 [Zakim]
Attendees were [IPcaller], INRIA, cwebber2, eprodrom, +1.514.525.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme, bret
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16:49:40 [elf-pavlik]
ben_thatmustbeme do you get form-encoded response from GET /micropub?q=syndicate-to ?
16:49:59 [elf-pavlik]
16:50:01 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
16:50:11 [elf-pavlik]
tantek ^
17:01:16 [Tsyesika]
I made it to the airport!
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17:07:00 [rhiaro]
Congrats Tsyesika :)
17:07:13 [bblfish]
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17:08:41 [Tsyesika]
17:09:02 [Tsyesika]
rhiaro: i had the normal rifling through my luggage
17:09:05 [Tsyesika]
i think i'm getting use to it
17:10:02 [Loqi]
Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
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17:32:07 [Tsyesika]
oh cool looks like evan has started implementing
17:49:42 [cwebber2]
Tsyesika: fast! :)
17:49:48 [cwebber2]
guess i have to learn Go
17:50:07 [Tsyesika]
17:50:10 [Tsyesika]
just thinking the same thing
17:50:15 [Tsyesika]
their hash map looks weird
17:50:29 [Tsyesika]
defining a map inside a ma
17:50:30 [cwebber2]
oh well, I kind of wanted to learn it anyway!
17:50:31 [Tsyesika]
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Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]]
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22:07:33 [elf-pavlik]
22:08:46 [elf-pavlik]
sadly not JSON-LD lib for Go yet :(
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23:51:22 [ben_thatmustbeme]
elf-pavlik: yes
23:51:43 [ben_thatmustbeme]
same for mp-action
23:51:45 [ben_thatmustbeme]