14:55:39 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
14:55:39 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/05-hcls-irc
14:55:41 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:55:41 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
14:55:43 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
14:55:43 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
14:55:44 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
14:55:44 <trackbot> Date: 05 May 2015
14:55:50 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has now started
14:55:59 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
14:56:03 <dbooth> zakim, IPcaller is me
14:56:03 <Zakim> +dbooth; got it
14:56:11 <Zakim> +ericP
14:56:24 <Zakim> +claude
14:58:07 <Zakim> +Kerstin_Forsberg
14:59:12 <Zakim> -claude
15:00:20 <Zakim> +claude
15:00:54 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
15:02:18 <DNelson> DNelson has joined #HCLS
15:02:33 <dbooth> Topic: Review of Action Items
15:02:46 <Rafael_Richards> Rafael_Richards has joined #HCLS
15:02:46 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:02:51 <dbooth> DONE ACTION: dbooth to suggest to the FIHR group to make it explicit in the FHIR spec tha a profile URI *should* be dereferenceable to an authoritative definition of that profile [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-hcls-minutes.html#action01]
15:02:53 <Lloyd> zakim, ipcaller is lloyd
15:02:53 <Zakim> +lloyd; got it
15:03:04 <Zakim> + +1.916.783.aaaa
15:03:23 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is DNelson
15:03:23 <Zakim> +DNelson; got it
15:03:41 <dbooth> Topic: Approve Minutes of previous meetings
15:03:54 <dbooth> Apr 28 minutes: http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20150428
15:04:33 <dbooth> Dale is co-chair today
15:04:43 <ericP> scribenick: ericP
15:04:44 <dbooth> David moved to approve minutes; eric seconded.
15:05:09 <dbooth> RESOLVED: Apr 28 minutes approved!
15:05:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:05:24 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR RDF and Validation/Translation Task Force
15:05:42 <ericP> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Rafael_Richards
15:05:42 <Zakim> +Rafael_Richards; got it
15:05:54 <dbooth> FHIR RDF and Validation/Translation Task Force
15:06:02 <dbooth> http://www.w3.org/2015/04/29-hcls-minutes.html
15:06:38 <ericP> dbooth: we went through the issues list and close issues that we'd already handled (and one duplicate)
15:06:53 <Zakim> +bpech
15:06:59 <ericP> ... we mostly talked about bnodes [in RDF representations of FHIR/XML]
15:07:35 <dbooth> Options: 1. use blank nodes and let applications deal with the problem by minting skolem URIs or something else; 2. define a standard way to form a URI; 3. use a skolem URI using the well-known convention defined by RDF.
15:08:04 <ericP> ... the easiest way to represent objects nested in FHIR/XML Resoruces is to create a fresh bnode
15:08:08 <bpech> bpech has joined #hcls
15:08:31 <Zakim> + +1.512.680.aabb
15:08:51 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is Darrell
15:08:51 <Zakim> +Darrell; got it
15:10:10 <dbooth> eric: Concerned that creating permanent URIs for bnodes may lead to an erroneous conclusion that if the same URI is generated in two different documents, it will be treated as the same entityu.
15:11:46 <dbooth> ... For example, if the are named numerically based on first item, next item, etc., if the items are not the same in those two Observations then they'll still have the same URI, though they shouldn't.
15:12:08 <dbooth> s/based on/based on position/
15:12:28 <Rafael_Richards> Is the original cause or need for  blank node poor definition?  I.e. use of "NOS"?
15:13:26 <dbooth> Topic: Planning Upcoming HL7 Meeting - Paris May 10-15
15:14:22 <ericP> dbooth: let's see what we want to do at Paris F2F
15:14:27 <ericP> ... we can go through issues
15:14:41 <ericP> ... we can go through Tony's side-by-side
15:14:53 <ericP> ... i.e. continue doing this sort of stuff
15:15:43 <ericP> claude: we could do some outreach
15:16:26 <ericP> ... engaging folks. invite folks to our meetings
15:16:28 <ericP> q+
15:16:59 <ericP> Rafael_Richards: we have european counterparts at e.g. University of Geneva
15:17:14 <ericP> ... (interested in Linked Data)
15:17:35 <ericP> ... do we have a list of attendees?
15:18:14 <ericP> Lloyd: not yet. occasionally distributed in advance. could ask lillian but she's busy and traveling tomorrow
15:18:27 <ericP> claude: maybe we can do this between sessions
15:18:45 <dbooth> ACTION: Claude to get list of HL7 meeting attendees to see who may want to join our meeting
15:18:45 <trackbot> Error finding 'Claude'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:18:50 <ericP> ... during the session we should tell people how to reach us
15:18:52 <ericP> q?
15:18:58 <ericP> ack me
15:19:22 <dbooth> eric: Only within HL7 people?   Or others?
15:20:04 <ericP> cloudcell_: let's start with HL7 folks but they can reach out to others
15:20:18 <ericP> ... give them some contact info
15:20:20 <dbooth> claude: Start w HL7 people, and people they know.
15:20:35 <dbooth> s/cloudcell_/claude/
15:21:15 <dbooth> lloyd: Non-HL7 attendees would have to register and pay non-member rates.
15:21:48 <dbooth> eric: Would be great to get Alejandra
15:22:15 <ericP> dbooth, it would be good to let people know, even if they probably can't come
15:22:21 <ericP> dbooth: it would be good to let people know, even if they probably can't come
15:22:28 <ericP> ... so contact anyone you think of
15:22:43 <Rafael_Richards> Program for Paris HL7 meeting: http://www.hl7.org/documentcenter/public_temp_6E8EF6E0-1C23-BA17-0CED013A099E3264/calendarofevents/Paris-onsite_v9.pdf
15:23:05 <ericP> dbooth: can you own the agenda for our session?
15:23:17 <ericP> ... we had overview materials last time
15:23:33 <dbooth> ACTION: Claude to plan Paris agenda
15:23:33 <trackbot> Error finding 'Claude'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:23:42 <Zakim> -Kerstin_Forsberg
15:24:00 <ericP> dbooth: any more for Paris right now?
15:24:41 <ericP> Rafael_Richards: i pasted the meeting schedule. ops for claude to network e.g. FHIR session at 9am
15:24:54 <ericP> claude: and i'll be at the connectathon
15:25:40 <ericP> Rafael_Richards: there's a 9-5 connectathon on fri but there are FHIR talks every day
15:25:56 <ericP> dbooth: what are appropriate ways to announce to others?
15:26:22 <ericP> Lloyd: propose ITS list (which is where folks who care about syntax hang out) and FHIR list
15:26:40 <ericP> ... can also mention it on the implementors skype chat
15:27:34 <dbooth> ACTION: Claude to send invite to FHIR list about the RDF subgroup meeting in Paris
15:27:34 <trackbot> Error finding 'Claude'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:28:05 <dbooth> eric: I won't be in Paris, but I will spend some time w Josh Mandel.
15:28:28 <dbooth> ... So I might be able to get him to answer tough questions about how to get stuff from the FHIR spec to our ont.
15:29:58 <dbooth> Topic: Blank nodes
15:30:22 <dbooth> Older version of Tony's comparison: http://wiki.hl7.org/images/2/25/FHIR_RDF_Sample_side_by_side_comparisons.pdf
15:31:29 <dbooth> :resource a fhir:Observation;
15:31:29 <dbooth>   fhir:Observation.code [
15:31:29 <dbooth>     a loinc:54411-4;
15:31:29 <dbooth>     fhir:CodeableConcept.coding [
15:31:30 <dbooth>       fhir:Coding.system [ fhir:uri.value <http://loinc.org>] ;
15:31:30 <dbooth>       fhir:Coding.code [ fhir:code.value "54411-4" ];
15:31:32 <dbooth>       fhir:Coding.display [ fhir:string.value "Rh immune globulin given Qualitative"];
15:31:34 <dbooth>       ];
15:31:38 <dbooth>     fhir:CodeableConcept.text [ fhir:string.value "Rh immune globulin" ];
15:31:40 <dbooth>   ].
15:33:00 <dbooth> eric: Need to encode fhir:CodeableConcept.coding
15:33:00 <dbooth>  instance as a URI instead of blank node, for OWL reasoners.
15:34:12 <dbooth> ... I verified the problem with an OWL reasoner, though it is not a problem in SPARQL.
15:35:25 <bpech> I apologize, I have to leave early.
15:35:35 <Zakim> -bpech
15:35:58 <dbooth> ACTION: David to check with an OWL reasoner expert to see if the blank node issue is inherent or a tool limitation
15:35:58 <trackbot> 'David' is an ambiguous username. Please try a different identifier, such as family name or username (e.g., dbooth, dderour, dhansen2, dnewman, dshotton, dwild).
15:36:27 <ericP> -> http://piratepad.net/hcls hcls pirate pad
15:38:30 <dbooth> [[
15:38:32 <dbooth> @prefix : <http://BlankNodeTest/> .
15:38:32 <dbooth> @prefix owl: <http://www.w3.org/2002/07/owl#> .
15:38:32 <dbooth> @prefix rdf: <http://www.w3.org/1999/02/22-rdf-syntax-ns#> .
15:38:33 <dbooth> @prefix xml: <http://www.w3.org/XML/1998/namespace> .
15:38:33 <dbooth> @prefix xsd: <http://www.w3.org/2001/XMLSchema#> .
15:38:37 <dbooth> @prefix rdfs: <http://www.w3.org/2000/01/rdf-schema#> .
15:38:39 <dbooth> @base <http://BlankNodeTest> .
15:38:41 <dbooth> <http://BlankNodeTest> a owl:Ontology .
15:38:43 <dbooth> :hasChild a owl:AsymmetricProperty , owl:ObjectProperty .
15:38:45 <dbooth> :hasHairColor a owl:ObjectProperty ;
15:38:47 <dbooth>   rdfs:range :HairColor .
15:38:49 <dbooth> # :hasSSN a owl:ObjectProperty .
15:38:51 <dbooth> :hasSSN a owl:DatatypeProperty .
15:38:53 <dbooth> :value a owl:DatatypeProperty .
15:38:55 <dbooth> :code a owl:Class .
15:38:57 <dbooth> :HairColor a owl:Class ; rdfs:subClassOf :code .
15:38:59 <dbooth> :BrownHaired a owl:Class ;
15:39:01 <dbooth>   owl:equivalentClass [
15:39:03 <dbooth>       a owl:Class ;
15:39:07 <dbooth>       owl:intersectionOf (
15:39:09 <dbooth>         :HairColor
15:39:11 <dbooth>         [ owl:onProperty :value ; owl:hasValue "brown" ]
15:39:13 <dbooth>       )
15:39:15 <dbooth>     ] ;
15:39:17 <dbooth>   rdfs:subClassOf :HairColor .
15:39:19 <dbooth> :brown1 a :HairColor , owl:NamedIndividual ;
15:39:21 <dbooth>   :value "brown" .
15:39:23 <dbooth> :Person a owl:Class .
15:39:25 <dbooth> :frank a :Person , owl:NamedIndividual ;
15:39:27 <dbooth>   :hasChild
15:39:29 <dbooth>     [
15:39:31 <dbooth>       a :Person ;
15:39:33 <dbooth>       :hasSSN "123-45-6789" ;
15:39:37 <dbooth>       :hasHairColor [
15:39:39 <dbooth>           a :HairColor ;
15:39:41 <dbooth>           :value "brown"
15:39:43 <dbooth>         ]
15:39:45 <dbooth>     ], :frankson .
15:39:47 <dbooth> :frankson
15:39:49 <dbooth>       a :Person ;
15:39:51 <dbooth>       :hasSSN "123-45-6790" ;
15:39:53 <dbooth>       :hasHairColor [
15:39:55 <dbooth>           a :HairColor ;
15:39:57 <dbooth>           :value "brown"
15:39:59 <dbooth>         ]
15:40:01 <dbooth>     .
15:40:03 <dbooth> ]]
15:40:07 <dbooth> Postpone this issue until talking to OWL experts
15:40:54 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR element ordering
15:41:11 <ericP> dbooth: four possibilities:
15:41:11 <dbooth> Some possibilities:
15:41:11 <dbooth>     rdf:List
15:41:11 <dbooth>     Ordered List Ontology
15:41:11 <dbooth>     Collections Ontology
15:41:12 <dbooth>     Simple List Conventions
15:41:34 <dbooth> http://www.w3.org/TR/rdf-schema/#ch_list
15:41:49 <ericP> dbooth: RDF default -- use the existing RDF list expression
15:42:03 <ericP> ... this causes trouble for SPARQL queries
15:42:04 <dbooth> (a b c d)
15:42:27 <ericP> ... it's hard to get those elements in order in a SPARQL query
15:42:36 <dbooth> http://smiy.sourceforge.net/olo/spec/orderedlistontology.html
15:42:44 <dbooth> http://www.essepuntato.it/lode/owlapi/http://purl.org/co/
15:42:49 <ericP> ... so lots of people use other techniques, e.g.
15:42:53 <dbooth> http://goo.gl/8PNuAG
15:43:18 <ericP> ... Simple List Convention is similar to OLO but more concise
15:45:00 <dbooth> lloyd: is inference the same for these options?
15:45:21 <ericP> ericP: SLC is more terse in SPARQL and Turtle because it leverages rdf:List syntaxes
15:45:35 <dbooth> ... Sometimes we'll care that an item is first; other times we'll care about relative ordering.
15:45:36 <ericP> ... do we care about order in inferecning use cases?
15:45:46 <ericP> Lloyd: we care about first or one before another
15:46:20 <ericP> ... let's enumerate UCs:
15:46:43 <ericP> ... ... essential UC: regenerate XML and JSON in the same order
15:47:16 <ericP> ... .. in some circumstances, for some profiles, you care about the 1st member
15:47:44 <ericP> ... .. relative position: is diagnosis 1 more important than diagnosis 2?
15:48:11 <ericP> ... .. is this result newer or older than some other result?
15:48:28 <dbooth> dbooth: UC 1 is covered by all of these optoins.
15:48:49 <ericP> dbooth: do you mean testing by SPARQL or a reasoner?
15:49:02 <ericP> Lloyd: if we can do it in a reasoner, that's ideal
15:49:14 <ericP> ... if we can't but we can do it in SPARQL, that will probably suffice
15:50:02 <ericP> ... if two can do it in SPARQL and one can do it in the reasoner, that's a point for the one that the reasoner handles
15:50:19 <ericP> ... in general, reasoners suck at order or arithmetic
15:50:50 <ericP> dbooth: UC to involves looking for a certain number
15:50:58 <ericP> dbooth: UC2 involves looking for a certain number
15:51:11 <ericP> dbooth: UC3 involves comparing values
15:51:41 <dbooth> eric: reasoners do not compare numeric values.  SWRL does thought.
15:51:46 <dbooth> s/thought/though/
15:53:19 <ericP> ericP: there will be one extra predicate to traverse in SLC
15:54:39 <dbooth> eric: SLC would be more applicable when using exclusively Turtle or SPARQL
15:55:54 <dbooth> My pref: OLO or SLC
15:55:55 <ericP> dbooth: i propose we skip Collections Ontology as it is complex
15:56:47 <ericP> ... and not rdf:List [because it's hard to work with in SPARQL]
15:58:16 <ericP> dbooth: my pref it to put it on the list to solicit preferences
15:58:24 <dbooth> ACTION: Ask on the list for preferences about which list convention to use
15:58:24 <trackbot> Error finding 'Ask'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
15:58:49 <ericP> ACTION: dbooth to ssk on the list for preferences about which list convention to use
15:58:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-23 - Ssk on the list for preferences about which list convention to use [on David Booth - due 2015-05-12].
16:00:48 <dbooth> http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=ITS+RDF+Meeting&year=&month=05&day=11&hour=15&min=30&sec=0&p1=195
16:01:49 <ericP> ACTION: ericP to arrange an HCLS bridge for 09:30-11:00 EDT
16:01:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-24 - Arrange an hcls bridge for 09:30-11:00 edt [on Eric Prud'hommeaux - due 2015-05-12].
16:02:13 <ericP> estimate 10 people
16:04:27 <Zakim> -claude
16:05:10 <Zakim> -Darrell
16:06:43 <Rafael_Richards> eric:  have you looked at the OMG  XML model standard?  Round trip this to RDF?
16:06:47 <Rafael_Richards> http://www.omg.org/mof/
16:06:50 <dbooth> Topic: Next week's calls
16:07:33 <dbooth> dbooth: we'll see on the list who will be available for our regularly scheduled calls next week, which conflict w HL7 paris mtg.
16:07:49 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:07:49 <Zakim> On the phone I see dbooth, ericP, lloyd, DNelson, Rafael_Richards
16:07:51 <Zakim> On IRC I see Rafael_Richards, Lloyd, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, TallTed, cloudcell_, trackbot, ericP
16:07:58 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and Dale Nelson
16:08:39 <dbooth> AJOURNED
16:08:47 <Zakim> -DNelson
16:19:33 <ericP> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/File:Snomedct_extract.ttl SNOMED CT Extract for C-reactive protein
16:20:00 <ericP> -> https://www.w3.org/wiki/File:Snomedct_extract_descriptive.ttl SNOMED CT Extract for C-reactive protein (with descriptive URLs)
16:24:03 <Zakim> -lloyd
16:28:48 <Zakim> -Rafael_Richards
16:28:51 <Zakim> -ericP
16:31:53 <Zakim> -dbooth
16:31:55 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
16:31:55 <Zakim> Attendees were dbooth, ericP, claude, Kerstin_Forsberg, lloyd, +1.916.783.aaaa, DNelson, Rafael_Richards, bpech, +1.512.680.aabb, Darrell
16:32:03 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:32:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/05-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
16:45:03 <dbooth> Present: dbooth, ericP, claude, Kerstin_Forsberg, lloyd, DNelson, Rafael_Richards, bpech, Darrell
16:45:05 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:45:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/05-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
18:04:15 <dbooth> dbooth has joined #hcls