07:43:41 RRSAgent has joined #social 07:43:41 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-irc 07:44:35 Zakim has joined #social 07:45:10 attempting to dial in to the usual conf call number 07:45:21 conference code is not working 07:45:43 hold on 07:45:58 ok 07:46:44 Arnaud has joined #social 07:47:03 zakim, room for 10 for 10 hours? 07:47:03 I don't understand your question, sandro. 07:47:29 zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes? 07:47:30 ok, sandro; conference Team_(social)07:47Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 600 minutes until 1747Z 07:47:48 Team_(social)07:47Z has now started 07:47:52 trackbot, start meeting 07:47:54 RRSAgent, make logs public 07:47:55 +jasnell 07:47:56 Zakim, this will be SOCL 07:47:56 ok, trackbot; I see Team_(social)07:47Z scheduled to start now 07:47:57 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 07:47:57 Date: 04 May 2015 07:48:01 zakim, call INRIA-bridge 07:48:01 ok, sandro; the call is being made 07:48:39 James, tell INRIA bridge the conference code: 23695487 07:48:49 hoping this works. 07:49:25 jasnell, does that make sense? We can hang up and call it again 07:49:52 jasnell, using "Zakim, drop INRIA-bridge" or "zakim, call INRIA-bridge" 07:50:08 sorry, was off getting coffee 07:50:50 zakim, drop INRIA-bridge 07:50:50 sorry, sandro, I don't know what conference this is 07:50:52 Team_(social)07:47Z has now started 07:50:58 +jasnell 07:50:58 zakim, this is SOCL 07:50:59 wseltzer, this was already Team_(social)07:47Z 07:50:59 ok, wseltzer; that matches Team_(social)07:47Z 07:51:01 we're getting zakim to call the local bridge but zaim won't enter the passcode 07:51:23 s/zaim/zakim/ 07:51:25 sandro: sorry, no, not sure what you're asking me to do 07:52:02 if you hear the local bridge asking for the code, try to enter it yourself 07:52:16 not hearing anything 07:52:20 the conference code: 23695487 07:52:39 zakim, call INRIA-bridge 07:52:39 ok, Arnaud; the call is being made 07:52:41 +INRIA 07:53:01 did you hear anything? 07:53:05 AnnB has joined #social 07:53:16 yes, trying 07:54:46 zakim, who is here? 07:54:46 On the phone I see jasnell, INRIA 07:54:48 On IRC I see AnnB, Arnaud, Zakim, RRSAgent, Jessica_Lily, rhiaro_, elf-pavlik, jasnell, tantek, bblfish, LCyrin, shepazu, Loqi, wilkie, melvster1, oshepherd, rhiaro, aaronpk, 07:54:48 ... kylewm, Tsyesika, cwebber2`, mattl, ElijahLynn, JakeHart, bret, bigbluehat, ben_thatmustbeme, dwhly, trackbot, sandro, wseltzer 07:54:58 deiu has joined #social 07:54:59 need more coffee 07:55:55 it will be difficult for me to hear and understand everyone. I will be relying quite a bit on whoever is taking minutes 07:56:33 I'm Jessica Tallon (Tsyesika) from GNU Mediagoblin 07:56:35 Sandro Hawke, MIT & W3C 07:56:35 Ann Bassetti, Boeing 07:56:39 Amy Guy, University of Edinburgh 07:56:59 elf Pavlik - independed / polyaffiliated 07:57:04 scribenick: AnnB 07:57:17 Wendy_Seltzer, W3C 07:57:48 Aaron Parecki - indiewebcamp 07:57:53 Arnaud: will work on: Activity Streams, make progress on protocol, ... 07:58:25 *trying* 07:58:33 jasnell++ for staying up at night to join us :) 07:58:33 ... change from original agenda, to have James Snell (@jasnell) on first, to accommodate Pacific time zone (middle of night) 07:58:36 jasnell has 13 karma 07:58:43 jasnell++ 07:58:48 jasnell has 14 karma 07:59:27 I would appreciate if the rest of you could put your name and association into IRC 07:59:42 so we have the proper list of attendees 08:00:16 James Snell: 08:00:24 ... number of issues in Tracker 08:00:26 melvster1_ has joined #social 08:00:27 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/open 08:00:55 ... re: Activity Streams... 08:01:08 Present+ Elf_Pavlik, AnnB, Olivier_Berger, Arnaud_LeHors, Wendy_Seltzer, Melvin_Carvalho, Andrei_Sambra 08:01:09 ... have 1st iteration of test harness .. loaded on Saturday 08:01:10 name : Melvin Carvalho (inependent) 08:01:10 I added a countdown for 5/9 12:00am (#5679) 08:01:15 https://github.com/w3c/activitystreams-testing 08:01:27 ... node-based application 08:01:39 ... need to start iterating on it 08:01:45 ... please help 08:01:48 Present+ Jessica_Tallon, Amy_Guy, Aaron_Parecki, Sandro_Hawke 08:02:05 ... this is the test harness jasnell's colleague JT demo'd 08:02:21 ... jasnell is busy for next couple weeks, but then will work on it 08:02:33 ... good beginning for test harness 08:02:56 parklize has joined #social 08:02:59 paul has joined #social 08:03:25 Arnaud: (clarifying).. we pushed JT to put this harness out there, even though the code wasn't done 08:03:39 ... it's not his job, we "volunteered" him 08:03:52 ... but we wanted to get it out there, so people can start helping 08:03:56 ... creating tests 08:04:02 q+ re: how people implementing libs and tools can use it for automated testing? 08:04:17 ... would be really helpful if WG members would let us know who can work on this 08:04:27 Present+ Paul_Tran-Van 08:04:36 Sandro: could someone give an overview of how this harness works? 08:04:49 Arnaud / jasnell: JT is in process of documenting 08:05:02 jasnell: give an AS instance 08:05:10 ... it will check if it's valid JSON 08:05:24 s/JT/JP/ 08:05:42 JP=Jacques Perrault 08:05:49 08:05:51 deiu has joined #social 08:05:57 s/JT/JP/ 08:06:11 Sandro: it runs as a web service? 08:06:17 https://as-test-harness.mybluemix.net/ 08:06:23 jasnell: yes .. runs as a node web app 08:06:26 q? 08:06:43 ... goal is to be able to install locally, but not quite ready on that 08:06:46 sandro: why? 08:07:05 jasnell: to be able to test your own docs, if you don't want to share publicly 08:07:16 Ann, I will be documenting the fundamental test process 08:07:21 q? 08:07:33 arnaud: right now it's rudimentary, but it's only beginning 08:07:35 I'll try to get that written up later in the afternoon today... after I get sleep 08:07:42 q+ to say So it's a Feed Validator, at the moment, not a Test Harness 08:09:21 arnaud: goal is totdemonstrate we have interoperability in the spec 08:09:35 Arnaud: as WG we need to deliver implementations report 08:09:38 s/totdemonstrate /to demonstrate / 08:09:44 ack elf-pavlik 08:09:44 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss how people implementing libs and tools can use it for automated testing? 08:09:45 obergix has joined #social 08:09:46 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Implementations 08:10:00 elf: I see there are 2 implementations started 08:10:09 ... are there plans to automate? 08:10:16 ... for people who built libraries 08:10:37 ... another guy I will meet with in Dusseldorf has some stuff 08:10:42 ... how can he work on this 08:10:59 Nick (working on sockethub) writes different JS AS2.0 library 08:11:07 jasnell: that's the goal, but I'm not clear exactly on how it will work 08:11:32 ack sandro 08:11:32 sandro, you wanted to say So it's a Feed Validator, at the moment, not a Test Harness 08:11:33 ... ideally we'll be able to drop into some environment, and it'll just run... but none of that is worked out yet 08:11:46 sandro: what threw me off is the name "test harness" 08:11:57 ... what you really mean is "feed validator", right? 08:12:06 jasnell: yes, right now only validator .. 08:12:11 ... longer goal is more 08:12:20 arnaud: what is expected? 08:12:37 sandro: nice to have test feeds and something to do with them 08:12:50 arnaud: that's part of the challenge, there's only so much you can do in this case 08:13:04 sandro: I guess you could have some valid and invalid AS 08:13:13 q+ re: testing expected *side effects* after adding an Activity to dataset 08:13:42 jasnell: yes ... will come more into play when we have an API 08:13:54 sandro: there 08:14:29 s/sandro: there // 08:14:31 there needs to be a complete corpus of test documents, both valid and invalid 08:14:39 ack elf-pavlik 08:14:39 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss testing expected *side effects* after adding an Activity to dataset 08:14:45 https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Follow 08:14:51 sandro: So (1) Feed Validator, (2) Syntactic Test Suite -- wiith hundreds of Good and Bad documents, for people to make sure their parsers are good 08:15:01 elf: we were talking about testing side effects 08:15:21 ... how do side effects happen .. 08:15:29 I am sorry but it's very difficult for me to understand what elf is saying 08:15:29 ... before and after activity happens 08:16:04 elf-pavlik: For the client API, we can test the side effects, eg what a subscription changed 08:16:13 arnaud: we can only validate the stream 08:16:41 q+ 08:16:43 sandro: once we know what API we're doing, we can figure out better how to test i 08:16:54 s/test i/test it/ 08:17:19 elf: can test what it looks like before activity and after activity 08:18:00 jasnell: we can test "stories", based on our user stories, for certain scenarios 08:18:06 ... what is expected output 08:19:10 ... with some syntax variances 08:20:02 Wseltzer made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83987&oldid=83984 08:20:06 ... for now we can only go so far 08:20:26 q? 08:20:29 q- 08:20:30 ack jsnell 08:20:55 elf: I'll try to make a pull request on what I was suggesting 08:20:56 https://github.com/w3c-social/social-vocab/tree/master/activity/Follow 08:21:08 ... trying to illustrate; we can see if it works or not 08:21:20 i'll make pull request with test for how Follow activity affects the dataset 08:21:21 arnaud: anything else on test suite? 08:21:27 08:21:41 jasnell: moving on with open issues 08:21:47 ... there are 13 open issues 08:22:05 ... Tracker issues (not github) 08:22:13 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised 08:22:20 ... 2 new ones 08:22:25 ISSUE-20? 08:22:26 ... 1 by Eric Wilde 08:22:26 ISSUE-20 -- Represent Collections using JSON Text Sequences (RFC 7464) -- raised 08:22:26 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/20 08:22:57 ... don't want to close it without Eric being able to discuss it 08:23:07 .... would rather wait for concrete proposal 08:23:12 -1 to fiddle with tracker now 08:23:17 ... therefore recommend we do not open it 08:23:31 https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7464 08:23:46 can we discuss 08:23:50 issue-36 08:23:50 issue-36 -- Role and evolution of recommended JSON-LD contexts -- open 08:23:50 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/36 08:23:58 08:24:26 ... not clear how this would work with JSON-LD, nor what it would "buy" us 08:24:51 ... we currently represent as a document with an items array 08:24:55 q+ re: picking only issues most relevant to us dissing them F2F here 08:25:43 elf: for most people here, this is hard to discuss ... 08:25:44 the_frey has joined #social 08:26:03 ... might be better use of our time to discuss items we are engaged with 08:26:27 AnnB: let me know if I'm speaking too quickly or not clearly enough. 08:26:29 arnaud: this isn't "random"; jasnell is the editor, and he's just going through the issues 08:26:30 q+ is this precluded in any way, via con-neg 08:26:36 q+ to ask is this precluded in any way, via con-neg 08:27:02 ack elf 08:27:02 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss picking only issues most relevant to us dissing them F2F here 08:27:20 elf: .... that's just my observation; I might be wrong 08:27:48 ack sandro 08:27:48 sandro, you wanted to ask is this precluded in any way, via con-neg 08:27:56 jasnell: yes there's a proposal, but no examples on how it should work 08:28:15 sandro: this sounds like something that could be added later based on context negotiation, yes? 08:28:19 jasnell: yes 08:28:24 ... agree 08:28:37 arnaud: the proposal is to close this issue (that is, not open it) 08:29:04 jasnell: if someone can come with a concrete proposal later, they are invited to raise it again 08:29:07 PROPOSED: close issue-20 until someone comes with a real problem and concrete proposal 08:29:11 +1 08:29:12 0 08:29:17 +1 08:29:30 abstain 08:29:43 0 08:29:51 (leavingn it to the geeks) 08:29:58 +1 08:30:03 (just an observer) 08:30:09 0 08:30:11 +1 08:30:41 0 08:30:46 RESOLVED: close issue-20 until someone comes with a real problem and concrete proposal 08:30:47 0 08:31:07 issue-36 08:31:07 issue-36 -- Role and evolution of recommended JSON-LD contexts -- open 08:31:07 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/36 08:31:39 jasnell: can we talk about raised issues first? 08:31:44 paul_ has joined #social 08:32:00 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/37 08:32:13 ... we don't need to solve this one yet, but I do recommend opening it 08:32:29 sandro: we can't make progress on this until we decide on API 08:32:40 ... but probably OK to open it 08:32:49 arnaud: I find this a bit premature 08:32:59 ... LDP stuck 08:33:13 PROPOSED: open ISSUE-37 08:33:18 +1 08:33:24 jasnell: point of reference: I've implemented it both ways 08:33:33 ... found that clients implement both ways 08:33:34 sandro: This makes sense as an issue with or without LDP. It's the basic question of whether to have paging links in LINK headers or inside the data. Good question. 08:33:51 ... I think it'd be good to at least leave open 08:33:57 Harry arrives 08:34:01 +1 08:34:17 Present+ Harry_Halpin 08:34:23 +1 08:34:34 +1 08:34:41 RESOLVED: open ISSUE-37 08:34:58 jasnell: OK, now to the open issues 08:35:02 ... quite a few of them 08:35:14 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/36 08:35:16 elf wants to start with #36 08:35:38 elf: I find it interesting that we try to have JSON and RDF 08:36:21 ... how we design and implement will be crucial 08:36:31 q+ 08:36:34 ... will it be frozen or can it still adjust over time? 08:36:59 ... lately jasnell was flattening namespaces ... which makes it hard in RDF 08:37:03 q+ to ask if extensibility is a requirement for this WG 08:37:09 ... how do we handle this 08:37:17 ack jasnell 08:37:20 ... how do we understand the JSON context? 08:37:23 ASIDE: Was there any discussion in the f2f meeting about explicit goals for the meeting? So far there is only "Proposed Goals": https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Goals_for_the_meeting 08:37:43 Goals currently are "TBD" 08:37:49 jasnell: re: context ... keep in mind: 1) there is a context that is normative; 2) keep it minimal 08:37:53 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/blob/master/activitystreams2-context.jsonld 08:37:55 Arnaud: ^^^ 08:38:38 ... I think we should remove a lot of the non-AS vocabulary other than vcard 08:39:03 tantek: not much of a discussion I said the goal for today is to close as many issues against AS as possible 08:39:13 08:39:13 q+ re: 'denamespacing' vcard e.g meaning of Home after that 08:39:28 Thanks Arnaud - will update accordingly. 08:39:39 thanks 08:40:03 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83989&oldid=83987 08:40:22 sandro if term 'foo' doesn't have URI will get blank node _:foo 08:40:38 jasnell: challenge is json-ld contexts are not perfect ... no versioning 08:40:52 stevenroose has joined #social 08:40:57 ... keep context as minimal as possible 08:41:13 if it dosn't map in context to URI 08:41:23 sandro please see https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/36 08:41:38 arnaud: asks sandro what the policy is in publishing this kind of stuff 08:41:57 json-ld contexts are not versioned, there is no way to track backwards incompatible changes across json-ld context versions 08:42:17 sandro: namespaces won't break interop; but contexts will 08:42:19 if we keep the json-ld context as minimal as possible, implementations can extend as necessary without us having to do much 08:42:38 ... in new Process doc, it's more lightweight 08:42:52 the normative context document needs to have JUST the Activity Streams stuff + the denamespaced VCard properties 08:42:57 (in my opinion) 08:42:58 q? 08:43:07 Harry: in order to make an change like this, we don't have to re-open WG 08:43:31 it would be extremely helpful if JSON-LD had minimal versioning support 08:43:43 ... something like "re-open" but not "re-charter"... not sure 08:43:44 {"@context": {"@version": 1.0.0, ... } 08:43:48 ... more lightweight 08:44:24 q- 08:44:34 q+ re: multiple contexts and relations to issue-16 08:44:37 arnaud: does this mean we have to have it in the spec as well? 08:44:51 issue-16 08:44:51 issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open 08:44:51 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16 08:45:15 ... what would it take to close this issue? 08:45:22 sandro: there are a couple aspects to this 08:45:31 ... depends on what type of change 08:45:44 ... there are forward and backward-compatible changes 08:46:06 ... but changing mapping to existing namespace would break existing stuff 08:46:43 ack sandro 08:46:43 sandro, you wanted to ask if extensibility is a requirement for this WG 08:47:07 jasnell: it's hard to make changes that will break nothin 08:47:11 yikes about versioning and extensibility - would strongly prefer forward-compat design practices 08:47:12 s/nothin/nothing/ 08:47:31 sandro: how to do extensibility? is that a solid requirement? 08:47:33 tantek: json-ld contexts are not versioned 08:48:10 eprodrom has joined #social 08:48:11 ... is it important that someone be able to add an enterprise-specific XYZ? 08:48:13 Hello all 08:48:18 jasnell: absolutely yes 08:48:25 ... have real-world examples 08:48:31 extensibility also relates to issue-16 !!! 08:48:38 ... people can extend, so long as it's not part of AS namespace 08:48:54 arnaud: then there's no way for us to guarantee we won't break those extensions 08:49:20 jasnell: diff extensions might conflict .. yes .. that's not the issue .. we're talking about the core 08:49:51 issue-36 says multiple contexts <- pluaral 08:50:04 jasnell: can add stuff via json-ld 08:50:18 sandro: but doesn't that break it for others, who aren't using json? 08:50:26 q? 08:50:30 ... what if one company adds an extension 08:50:39 ... then others in their sphere also use that 08:51:28 arnaud: only way to get unique names is to use context (?) 08:51:56 if an implementation depends on extensions at all, there is a risk of reduced interop, that's just the nature of decentralized extensibility 08:52:02 harry: in any decentralized system, you can't guarantee that everyone will understand everything 08:52:10 ... XML has same issue 08:52:28 elf: it's a challenge, but maybe not a problem 08:52:52 sandro: give warning: if you get stuff you don't understand, then what to do 08:53:02 ... in practice json-ld will have lots of extensions 08:53:17 q+ 08:53:25 ack elf-pavlik 08:53:25 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss multiple contexts and relations to issue-16 08:53:26 issue-16 08:53:26 issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open 08:53:26 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16 08:53:29 ... harmful to have only json 'reading' of this 08:53:55 sandro: Basically we need a huge warning on JSON-ONLY usage of Activity Streams. 08:54:05 elf: need to have diff strategy 08:54:05 Is there not a video console set up in the room? 08:54:16 eprodrom: no 08:54:18 I'm not seeing anyone else on https://talky.io/socialweb 08:54:21 Oh 08:54:30 hold on... maybe we can get it set up 08:54:34 OK 08:54:38 no, we can't. use zakim. 08:54:45 oh, sorry 08:55:05 >:( 08:55:09 zakim, who is on the phone 08:55:09 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', sandro 08:55:12 zakim, who is on the phone? 08:55:12 On the phone I see jasnell, INRIA 08:55:16 talky will not work, we have ports blocked here 08:55:19 eprodrom: call the regular conf line 08:55:25 Gotcha 08:55:41 problem is that this network blocks it 08:55:44 dang 08:56:00 sandro: json extensibility won't work 08:56:02 q+ 08:56:08 ... or, it works, but with lots of 'danger' 08:56:14 ... ditto RDF 08:56:30 q+ 08:56:38 ... we should not change the context content 08:56:48 +eprodrom 08:56:52 elf: that's why we should be careful what we put in it 08:57:36 ack melvster1_ 08:57:51 hhalpin has joined #social 08:57:55 melvster: this namespace problem not specific to AS 08:58:10 q? 08:58:10 ... exist in java .. hasn't been that much of a problem 08:58:18 q+ 08:58:18 ack jasnell 08:58:58 jasnell: we have already built in the model ... which helps namespace your properties 08:59:12 ... any system that has extensions runs risk of reducing interop 08:59:33 ... best we can say is, "ignore what you don't understand" 08:59:41 ... keep the core stable 08:59:52 Not just STABLE but IMMUTABLE 08:59:56 Right? 09:00:01 ... add stuff that you want, but realize you run the risk of instability 09:00:12 ack eprodrom 09:00:36 eprodrom: AS is really quite complete 09:00:38 current mapping of "Home" https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/blob/master/activitystreams2-context.jsonld#L33 09:00:39 ... most is there 09:00:44 LCyrin has joined #social 09:00:51 i bet most people don't understand semantics vcard:Homa has! 09:00:59 ... if you want to use a new vocabulary .. that's OK, but just know that you are extending core vocab 09:01:09 ack hhalpin 09:01:12 q? 09:01:12 ... most of what we need is there already 09:01:34 harry: I agree with Evan; plus vcard is very complete 09:02:08 ... in current spec, would it be helpful to put something like "must ignore"? 09:02:19 http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html#extensibility 09:02:31 https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/blob/master/activitystreams2-context.jsonld#L33 09:02:35 "In Activity Streams 2.0, an "extension" is any property not defined by the Activity Vocabulary. Consuming implementations that encounter unfamiliar extensions must not stop processing or signal an error and must continue processing the items as if those properties were not present. Support for specific extensions can vary across implementations and no normative processing model for extensions is provided." 09:02:42 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#extensibility 09:02:50 ... what's current status of spec on this? 09:03:03 should we say MUST ignore 09:03:15 or have some specified error processing (which is what most Web APIs do?) 09:03:25 arnaud: I think "ignore" is too strong 09:03:26 q+ 09:03:30 q+ re: distinction between AS2.0 Vocabulary and normative JSON-LD context 09:03:33 ... what you don't want application to balk 09:04:09 jasnell: want to be careful to not drop data on floor by mistake 09:04:22 So should we say 'don't throw an error, but keep data'? 09:04:26 ... better to say 'don't drop data if you don't understand it' ... 09:04:33 I think that's the real question. 09:04:39 ack sandro 09:04:53 I'm OK with keeping the text the way its written, but I just am trying to clarify what I think the concern is from Sandro and a way to address. 09:04:57 sandro: is there any reason we need to have only one context? 09:05:07 Yes 09:05:13 q+ 09:05:21 Historically, I'm pretty sure people don't use namespaces 09:05:27 q+ 09:05:30 so I'd prefer to keep a pretty large base context 09:06:04 +1 09:06:09 jasnell: if we think vcard will cause conflicts, then we could remove it 09:06:35 ... some terms in vcard vocab need to be slightly re-worked (?) 09:07:02 ... one wayy to close this issue is to say only AS is normative 09:07:20 -1 09:07:39 jasnell: we could have 1 normative, with others as "extended" 09:08:04 ack elf-pavlik 09:08:04 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss distinction between AS2.0 Vocabulary and normative JSON-LD context 09:08:14 sandro: e.g., "AS 1 context", then "AS 2 context" .. 09:08:27 elf: haven't heard how we handle media types 09:08:39 so lets change the AS namespace to include "2.0" 09:09:11 ack eprodrom 09:09:17 ... json context is diffferent from vocabulary 09:09:35 eprodrom: disagree with having various contexts 09:09:56 ... we should provide 1) core; 2) vocab 09:10:14 ... if others want to add extensions... they can do that, but should not count on interop 09:10:50 q? 09:10:56 ... esp want to ensure our social API has a complete package .. then others can use extensions to add new functionalityy 09:10:58 ack jasnell 09:11:04 arnaud: seeking proposals to close this issue 09:11:33 jasnell: question to eprodrom ... should we keep vcard or not 09:11:34 ? 09:11:36 my proposal: create Task Force to resolve issue-16 and issue-36 09:11:51 kaepora has joined #social 09:12:17 eprodrom: we should have AS vocab, but make sure it's complete .. if we need to add vcard, I'm open; but let's not have multiple implementations 09:13:05 PROPOSAL: Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms 09:13:09 Hello, I'm Nadim Kobeissi, PhD student here at INRIA :-) 09:13:18 thanks Nadim 09:13:22 :3 09:13:30 Manu Sporny uses v1 / v2 in context URIs 09:14:13 https://w3id.org/identity/v1 from http://opencreds.org/specs/source/identity-credentials/ 09:14:39 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-36, Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms 09:14:44 +1 09:14:45 +1 09:14:46 -1 I see need for Task Force to resolve issue-36 and issue-16 together 09:14:47 +1 09:14:50 +1 09:15:00 +1 09:15:04 +1 09:15:42 arnaud asks elf to explain why he voted -1 09:16:05 elf: altho we have good intentions to move on.. I anticipate problems in future from this 09:16:24 ... would rather have small team explore this more deeply 09:16:52 arnaud: I appreciate that ... I prefer to close it now .. and then, later, if we find we made a mistaake, then we can re-open it 09:17:01 I'm -1 on keeping issues open simply because we *might* have issues at some indeterminate point in the future 09:17:04 ... would that be OK? 09:17:06 +1 09:17:11 -0.5 i don't want to block it 09:17:23 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-36, Remove all non AS2 namespaces from the normative context, keep the normative context limited to only AS2 vocabulary terms 09:18:04 morning 09:18:27 obergix is Olivier Berger from Institut Mines Telecom / Telecom SudParis, and just an observer 09:18:27 morning cwebber2! 09:18:28 Well, I can help us out a little bit by closing issues 28 and 32... those were previously resolved 09:19:13 cwebber2: we're working on AS 2.0 today and the specs tomorrow 09:19:19 sandro, did you mention a proposal bout numbering a URI 09:19:33 ? 09:19:51 I work here, if you guys need a place for lunch I can help you find a place 09:19:57 akuckartz has joined #social 09:20:09 09:20:19 cwebber2: hey 09:20:23 wseltzer: It would be helpful to know of the group's dietary restrictions 09:20:23 cwebber2: we're taking 10 minutes 09:20:42 ISSUE: Do we need to add a version number to the AS Context URI, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added? 09:20:42 Created ISSUE-38 - Do we need to add a version number to the as context uri, to avoid breaking software when new terms are added?. Please complete additional details at . 09:21:11 hi eprodrom 09:21:14 Tsyesika: aha cool 09:21:21 Tsyesika: I didn't see anything on talky 09:22:17 we have a ridiculously restricted network here, so no talky 09:23:00 ahhh 09:23:03 cwebber2: talky doesn't work, we're on the regular zakim conference line 09:29:58 cwebber2: we're resuming 09:30:36 hi cwebber2 ! 09:30:41 jasnell: issue 13 09:30:49 issue-13? 09:30:49 issue-13 -- Which activity types are built into AS2, and how are they defined/structured? -- open 09:30:49 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/13 09:31:30 +1 elf-pavlik: prioritized issues! 09:31:35 hey all, ok 09:31:39 I was reading backscroll :) 09:31:55 rhiaro_ has joined #social 09:31:57 ... ones in there now .. were in original AS schema .. and then augmented 09:32:19 ... need to reconcile against user stories, to make sure we have correct set of activities 09:32:33 ... how do we refine that list, to make sure we have correct set? 09:32:46 ... I think that's what Erik was getting at 09:32:48 user stories: http://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax/User_Stories 09:33:00 arnaud: I agree; this is an open-ended question 09:33:55 ... might be better to have several specific issues about specific activities 09:34:00 ... therefore I suggest we close it 09:34:01 +1 09:34:04 jasnell: agree 09:34:05 +1 09:34:09 +1 09:34:14 +1 09:34:33 +1 09:34:36 +1 09:34:45 -0.5 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way 09:34:49 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-13, as is. If there is a problem with specific types missing or that shouldn't be there this should be handled with specific issues 09:34:59 +1 09:35:03 +1 09:35:11 -0 having doubts that we all understand this issue the same way 09:35:33 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-13, as is. If there is a problem with specific types missing or that shouldn't be there this should be handled with specific issues 09:36:00 arnaud: when we create issues, make them very specific 09:36:04 +??P2 09:36:09 ... makes it easier to deal witth them 09:36:26 that's me 09:36:45 ... if you can take a guess at the solution, all the better 09:36:54 jasnell: issue 15 09:37:03 I also didn't look at issue-13 for long time so have hard time to get it from hard disk to my RAM ... 09:37:08 issue-15? 09:37:08 issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- open 09:37:08 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15 09:37:24 elf: explains why he thought this was a problem 09:37:54 ... worried that it will be hard to change the vocabulary later 09:37:57 Where can I see the current draft for the vocab/context? :-) 09:38:06 q+ 09:38:09 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/ 09:38:12 kaepora: ^^^^^ 09:38:15 eprodrom: Thanks 09:38:18 that's not the current editor's draft 09:38:23 jasnell: oh, sorry 09:38:27 http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2.html 09:38:31 http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html 09:39:16 jasnell: thanks 09:39:34 ... need easy way to add terms 09:40:06 ack jasnell 09:40:11 jasnell: nothing arbitrary about current set 09:40:25 deiu: thanks, we can go over them during the discussion tomorrow 09:40:26 ... selected from existing social platforms 09:40:32 ... documented in wiki 09:40:44 ... we do need to refinen these to make sure they fit our user stories 09:40:59 s/deiu:/deiu,/ 09:41:06 ... can use existing extensibility models 09:41:13 ... we need to define minimum set 09:41:29 ... not interested to define all of schema.org cases .. 09:41:35 ... but yes there will be some overlap 09:41:38 ... not a prob 09:41:51 ... need to define minmal set for AS2 09:42:16 my proposal would be to close issue 15 09:42:22 AnnB: what's your reaction, elf? 09:42:32 elf: current model says there's a way to extend .. 09:42:45 ... but we don't have a way for others to use the extensions 09:42:56 that's the nature of extensions. if implementations depend on extensions, then there's a risk of decreased interop 09:43:01 .... how would someone else know abouit new terms? 09:43:09 implementations need to agree on what extensions to use 09:43:29 ... technical way to share new terms, but not 09:43:34 ... 09:43:41 ... 'social way' to share 09:44:00 ... I suggest the IG could work on this problem 09:44:15 if the interest group wants to work on a generalized way of handling extensions in a reliable way, then fine, but this is not an issue for the AS2.0 spec itself 09:44:23 arnaud: but, about the spec .. you raised this issue re: the spec 09:44:25 overlap is fine 09:44:36 it doesn't matter if there's overlap in the vocabularies 09:44:48 ... when I read this issue, it's kind of broad ... there are always these problems with vocabularies 09:44:55 ... how is this different? 09:45:09 q+ 09:45:38 ack eprodrom 09:45:39 elf: be prepared to use existing terms, not duplicate them 09:45:41 the best we can do is focus on our own use cases, we cannot anticipate what others might do in the future 09:45:47 q- 09:45:49 Sorry, phone problem 09:45:59 I'll type quickly 09:46:09 I think we need to provide enough vocabulary 09:46:21 That developers can build social applications with AS 2.0 09:46:24 q+ re: h-card, h-event h-* 09:46:26 Especially ones that meet our user stories 09:46:37 The structure of AS2 lends itself well to the inclusion of integrity and authenticity protection features. I would love to discuss these possibilities! (I work on crypto stuff) 09:46:40 A smorgasbord approach will not serve developers or users 09:46:54 I would prefer a universe where we could all just use schema.org as a base vocabulary but governance is the main concern 09:47:16 arnaud: we agree we nened to keep spec as minimal as possible, but large enough to support the use stories we've identified 09:47:23 q- 09:47:24 s/nened/need/ 09:48:08 elf: e.g., I understand there is some conflict between IndieWeb using their terms, others using AS terms, other using other... 09:48:30 aaronpk: I personally only rarely add new vocab terms 09:48:42 ... I try to avoid adding new ones until I'm sure I need them 09:49:08 I'm not concerned in the least about overlap. 09:49:10 elf: if there's overlap between terms in diff vocabs .. what do you do 09:49:20 aaronpk: not sure 09:50:23 Can we come up with a proposal here? 09:50:24 elf: we have 1) schema.org; 2) AS; 3) IndieWeb / microformats ... but not coordinated 09:50:43 arnaud: I think elf asks we establish a general policy how to handle this 09:50:49 q+ 09:52:12 ack jasnell 09:52:40 i don't mind focusing on microformats.org rather than schema.org 09:52:43 jasnell: I believe we've previously decided that we will not use schema.org as a normative requirement 09:53:13 .... no spec that maps microformats to json-ld 09:53:14 early draft: https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf 09:53:29 ... nor mapping of microfomats to activity models 09:53:49 q? 09:54:01 could we get the microformats community to bless a RDF model? :) 09:54:10 q+ to ask if anyone cares about interop between iwc and as ? 09:54:13 tantek ^ 09:54:16 ... without anything that describes how to reliably use microformats with json-ld, I don't see how we can use it 09:54:33 scribe is not sure jasnell said "use it" 09:55:02 q? 09:55:08 ack sandro 09:55:08 sandro, you wanted to ask if anyone cares about interop between iwc and as ? 09:55:10 ... this seems like a vague "what if" issue, rather than concrete 09:55:51 sandro: I hear, aaronpk, that you / IndieWeb folks aren't focused on interoperability 09:56:00 aaronpk: I wouldn't say that 09:56:18 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#IndieWeb 09:56:24 http://indiewebcamp.com/webactions 09:56:30 rhiaro: I've been looking at how to model my stuff ... 09:56:40 ... we've agreed to drop verbs 09:57:00 rhiaro++ 09:57:03 rhiaro has 68 karma 09:57:03 Webactions != Activities, Webactions == potential actions 09:57:16 but they use the same *verbs* ? 09:57:22 or Activity/Action types? 09:57:26 Like / like 09:57:42 Share / Repost share / repost 09:57:42 ... I'm using "Posts" ... similar to verbs or activities 09:57:56 I think a translator would be great! 09:58:00 ... I think we're talking about similar concepts, but using different terms 09:58:18 my main concern, and I don't mean to sound snarky: if we get an RDF model of microformats stuff, can we get the microformats community to play along, or will there be a wiki page saying "here's how to use microformats with RDF, but here's links to why RDF is terrible" :) 09:58:21 in AS2, everything is an "Object", even Activities. In IndieWeb, everything is a Post 09:58:24 ... I think there's a mapping, and I'm trying to think about that 09:58:45 ... so far I have not come across anything that is not a "post" 09:59:24 sandro: is it correct to refer to microformats or IndieWebCamp? 10:00:05 aaronpk: microformat is a vocabulary and a context, and IndieWebCamp is a community 10:00:13 rhiaro_++ 10:00:16 rhiaro_ has 69 karma 10:00:22 about trying to merge worlds there :) 10:00:22 rhiaro++ 10:00:25 rhiaro has 70 karma 10:00:29 issue-15 10:00:29 issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- open 10:00:29 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15 10:00:34 bridge worlds! 10:00:51 arnaud: rhiaro appears in a unique position, in that she's actually been trying to map these systems against each other 10:00:59 ... so, what's your opinion rhiaro? 10:01:14 sandro: I don't care about duplication, I do care about interop 10:01:48 rhiaro: biggest problem is that the people see the basic models as different 10:02:02 ... but I think, in the end, they are more similar than people than think 10:02:02 q+ 10:02:10 ... but I don't know what the solution is 10:02:14 audio is breaking up here for me 10:02:16 rhiaro: biggest problem is the fundamental models underlying AS2 and MF are different 10:02:24 though AnnB's transcribing is helping! 10:02:24 ... other than try to implement and see what happens 10:02:48 ... I'm trying now to post something in microformats structure 10:02:51 ack jasnell 10:02:54 ... next will try AS 10:03:17 jasnell: IF someone wants to create a mapping; I'm all for a concrete proposal for that mapping 10:03:35 ... Issue 15 is much too generic, and is not actionable 10:03:39 +1 10:03:45 ... propose closing itt 10:04:01 ... someone can come up with a more concrete issue 10:04:07 +1 also 10:04:08 s/itt /it / 10:04:21 I think it would make sense to have a more concrete proposal 10:04:35 arnaud: can you agree with this direction? 10:04:54 elf: too bad Harry left the room ... because he recently proposed something similar 10:05:05 ... also Tantek is not here 10:05:21 ... if the Issue as stated is too blurry, it's OK to close 10:05:23 if someone wants to propose using microformats terms in AS2, then they'll need to (a) show examples of how it would work and (b) describing the normative mapping 10:05:50 +1 10:05:52 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-15 as is 10:05:54 +1 10:05:57 +1 10:05:57 +1 10:06:04 +1 10:06:06 +1 10:06:07 +1 10:06:15 +1 but very interested in solving the related underlying interop issues! 10:06:18 +1 10:06:27 -0 we currently have proposal from harry to include microformat terms in AS vocaba and/or context 10:06:30 +0.5 10:06:32 I think closing it does make sense since it is quite vague but i think the discussion did bring up a good interop issue between AS 2.0 and microformats so it'd be interested in seeing rhiaro_'s produce an issue 10:07:02 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-15 as is 10:07:04 good, will give me a chance to brew coffee and make a quick breakfast :) 10:07:55 *lunch break for 1h* 10:08:03 arnaud: goal is to write very specific issues, with actions that are clear 10:08:20 rrsagent, make minutes 10:08:20 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html AnnB 10:08:26 -eprodrom 10:09:16 I'm going to be available from 13h -> 14h and then after 16h 10:15:31 bblfish has joined #social 10:16:22 [lunch break] 11:10:06 are we starting again soon? 11:17:58 sounds like people have returned :) 11:18:18 eprodrom has joined #social 11:18:25 yes 11:18:29 just sitting down 11:18:41 sorry for the delay, restaurant was a bit slow 11:19:35 no worries :) 11:19:49 +eprodrom 11:20:17 Arnaud: you all are just trying to savor Paris' gastronimical offerings :) 11:20:39 :) 11:20:56 we're still missing a few people 11:21:34 I usually wake up an hour from now 11:21:47 ha ha 11:21:50 thankfully, my fiancee is taking the kids to school this morning so I can sleep 11:23:09 sandro, re _: in JSON-LD context, just in case you didn't see this closed issue: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/36 11:24:50 rhiaro_ has joined #social 11:24:50 scribe: elf-pavlik 11:25:00 Arnaud: let's resume and close as many issues as we can 11:25:07 AnnB has joined #social 11:25:08 ... jasnell please pick a victim 11:25:18 issue-16 11:25:18 issue-16 -- better separate grammar/vocabulary and improved spec structure -- open 11:25:18 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/16 11:25:47 jasnell i see it straight forward 11:26:08 bblfish (Henry Story) arrives 11:26:51 + +1.401.305.aaaa 11:27:03 Zakim, aaaa is me 11:27:03 +ben_thatmustbeme; got it 11:27:49 ... comes down if we want to split terms into core and extended 11:28:07 ... implementers will need to look in two separate places 11:28:17 ... i would prefer to keep it together 11:28:24 q+ 11:28:25 akuckartz has joined #social 11:28:53 q+ 11:28:54 obergix has joined #social 11:29:04 ack eprodrom 11:29:26 elf-pavlik: i see grammar / core needing to stay more stable & frozen while extended terms can change and evolve more 11:29:37 eprodrom: i see it fine the way it stays and deffer to jasnell 11:29:41 ack sandro 11:29:44 +1 on deferring to jasnell 11:29:58 sandro: i don't know what i talk about, different namespaces or editorial? 11:30:06 s/deffer/defer/ 11:30:19 jasnell: i see it as editorial proposal 11:30:47 sandro: fine to defer to editor, if we want to split namespace i would have problem 11:30:59 jasnell: i can separate that if you want 11:31:11 q+ 11:32:00 ack eprodrom 11:32:35 http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html 11:32:49 elf-pavlik: grammar terms like as:object, as:actor etc. can drawn in less important terms, but i see more importance in JSON-LD contexts than editorial 11:33:00 eprodrom: i leave it to editor 11:33:58 +1 11:34:01 eprodrom: i want to see show of hands, how many people are familiar in core vs. extended classes? 11:34:09 +1 I think so.. 11:34:19 -1 11:34:21 + i can see diference 11:34:23 +1 11:34:27 +1 11:34:34 +1 11:34:43 +0.5 (read some of it, know what the difference is) 11:34:43 +1 11:34:56 0 some but not a lot 11:34:58 0.7 11:35:05 bblfish has joined #social 11:35:09 hi 11:35:17 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#types 11:35:25 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-vocabulary/#extendedtypes 11:35:45 jasnell: i will take another look at it and make editorial changes to address this issue 11:36:53 RESOLVED: Leave it to James to edit as he sees fit and check back with Erik to see if that satisfies him 11:37:09 +1 11:37:19 s/him/ISSUE-16/ 11:37:37 zhhhhh 11:38:00 https://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/17 11:38:35 jasnell: few weeks we resolved that Person object represents profile 11:38:48 s/few weeks/few weeks ago/ 11:38:52 issue 17 is duplicated in issue 26, is that what jasnell just said? 11:39:22 q+ 11:39:54 elf-pavlik: ok with closing it 11:39:54 ack rhiaro_ 11:40:05 rhiaro_: duplicated in issue-26 11:40:10 issuee-26 11:40:10 issue-26? 11:40:10 issue-26 -- Representing profiles in Activity Streams 2.0 -- open 11:40:10 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/26 11:40:26 q+ 11:40:35 ack sandro 11:40:39 sandro: i will repeat myself 11:40:47 ... most of the work in this place i consider wrong! 11:40:58 q+ 11:41:00 ... people modeling humans who don't want to be model as computers 11:41:11 ... existing mainstream models model accoutns 11:41:21 q+ 11:41:29 melvster1: facebook models humans 11:41:57 ack jasnell 11:42:00 q? 11:42:19 jasnell: PROPOSAL we chose just not to model people and don't define any of actual properties 11:42:35 I disagree with what @sandro said, but it's probably immaterial now 11:42:53 ack bblfish 11:42:57 +1 on closing 17 -1 on closing 26 11:42:58 jasnell: this will allow us to close issue-26 and issue-17 11:43:17 bblfish: i disagree with sandro, FOAF has Agent and account 11:43:33 q- 11:43:41 ... but immaterial to questions 11:44:09 +1 rhiaro_ 11:44:10 RESOLVED: Close Issue-17 as superceded by issue-26 11:44:15 +1 11:44:18 +1 11:44:19 +1 11:44:38 Arnaud: meant PROPOSED not RESOLVED 11:44:43 +1 11:44:43 +1 11:44:45 +1 11:44:47 s/RESOLVED/PROPOSED/ 11:44:51 +1 11:45:00 +0.8 11:45:09 +1 11:45:15 RESOLVED: Close Issue-17 as superceded by issue-26 11:45:32 elf-pavlik: if someone has proposal for multiple profiles please put it out 11:45:34 Issue-26? 11:45:34 Issue-26 -- Representing profiles in Activity Streams 2.0 -- open 11:45:34 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/26 11:45:51 I'm unable to hear amy 11:46:00 rhiaro_: if you have profile on one site and want to move it to another site you need way to do that 11:46:24 ... i still work on it and can take ACTION to make counter proposal to current Profile draft 11:46:42 jasnell: i don't see need to have our own way to model profiles 11:46:51 q+ 11:47:14 i opened issue-26 to decide how to model *Actions* on existing profile 11:47:29 jasnell: we have existing vocabs like vcard 11:47:41 ack eprodrom 11:47:51 elf-pavlik: also h-card (currently not compatible with AS2.0) 11:48:22 eprodrom: i understand that we have concept of a Person but would like to model that single person has more than one aspect to the world 11:48:28 I think in that case I would agree with not going into modelling a profile for AS2, but would prefer to rename it something other than Person, which becomes misleading 11:48:36 ... my work aspect, my personal aspect, my private aspects etc. 11:48:58 There does not really seem to be any existing system to do this (at least to me), you just create a second account 11:49:02 q? 11:49:08 eprodrom: i see it as interesting way to do social networking but in 2016 single person maps with single acounts 11:49:09 q+ 11:49:27 i mean any existing public social network that does this 11:49:31 ... we could put some support for it as another element ~ aspect, own by person or controlled by person 11:49:47 ben_thatmustbeme: and then it's a pain if you want to move things around between networks, right? 11:49:54 hhalpin has joined #social 11:49:56 q+ to ask parklize about sioc:UserAccount and foaf:Person 11:50:03 I would argue we continue with a single person, but can come back to in later versions 11:50:06 ack bblfish 11:50:17 Are we talking about FOAF? 11:50:20 I'm confused 11:50:24 bblfish: i know foaf:Person and see it vaguely defined 11:50:28 Aren't we talking about AS 2.0? 11:50:47 ... something about 4-dimentional time continum (scribe didn't get it ;) 11:51:15 q? 11:51:16 ... URI reffering to the person doesn't mean always the same person 11:51:23 q+ 11:51:26 rhiaro_, it can be, but I really don't think we should be concerned with adding functionality for that 11:51:27 ... we should keep timeline in mind 11:51:42 -cwebber2 11:51:44 bblfish: e.g. changing jobs and any other cases 11:51:48 foaf person can also be an 'imaginary friend' 11:51:59 +??P2 11:51:59 ... where you want to move identities or have them merged 11:52:34 Arnaud: i have impression that issue-27 relies on resolution of issue-26 11:52:41 Zakim, +??P2 is me 11:52:41 sorry, cwebber2, I do not recognize a party named '+??P2' 11:52:42 jasnell: vocabulary currently has a Person object 11:52:58 ... i could say that i added particular piece of information to my profile 11:53:04 as:Person as:Update as:Person 11:53:12 then again, in indieweb, this is a matter of rel=me to my facebook account. If facebook was able to integrate directly to my site, i wouldn't need that account 11:53:15 q+ 11:53:21 q+ 11:53:32 Arnaud: do you say that we don't need anything else than we have to describe person? 11:53:37 ack elf-pavlik 11:53:37 elf-pavlik, you wanted to ask parklize about sioc:UserAccount and foaf:Person 11:53:43 Zakim, ??P2 is me 11:53:43 +cwebber2; got it 11:54:13 sioc model is largely fine 11:54:14 elf-pavlik: why SIOC defines sioc:UserAccount 11:54:39 sioc is missing personas, but don't need to go there now :p 11:55:08 parklize: foaf:Person defines a person and in our perspective one has multiple accounts 11:55:30 ack jasnell 11:55:43 ack rhiaro_ 11:55:44 do we have a use-case where this difference makes a difference (i.e. between account and profile)? 11:55:45 in SIOC we use sioc:UserAccount as *author* of a sioc:Post 11:55:53 My guess is no. 11:55:57 Until I see one. 11:56:00 hhalpin++ 11:56:02 hhalpin has 5 karma 11:56:08 q+ 11:56:10 rhiaro_: fine with not having new model but consider renaming Person to e.g. Profile 11:56:17 elf-pavlik: or Persona 11:56:25 +1 rhiaro let's rename Person so people don't keep thinking it's a Person 11:56:26 ack eprodrom 11:56:37 +1 rename Person 11:56:38 The only use-case I can see is migrating personal profiles from one system to another and connecting them to a single person 11:56:42 cwebber2 has joined #social 11:56:53 irc client was going crazy, back 11:57:04 Yes, rename "Person" 11:57:23 eprodrom: the way you think about it in AS2.0 it may seam crazy that actor operates on oneself, but for me it makes a lot of sense 11:57:47 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, renaming Person as Profile 11:57:51 elf-pavlik: BTW https://login.persona.org/ 11:58:02 as:Person as:Update as:Person 11:58:16 +1 for just "update profile" 11:58:16 I think a 'person/profile' updating itself is fine too, the connection to an IRL person isn't necessary 11:58:19 jasnell: issue-27 asks if we need to model specific *granular* updates to profiles 11:58:37 I think issue 27 and 26 are merging now 11:58:39 +1 for jasneell 11:58:40 in discussion 11:58:42 q+ re: Person's profile, Organization's profile, Event's profile, Venue's profile 11:58:55 jasnell++ 11:58:58 jasnell has 15 karma 11:59:07 elf-pavlik: good point re: profiles for non-persons 11:59:32 Usually a:Person has a name and age (1983?), not a a:Profile (likely a few years old). 11:59:38 eprodrom: i see you point in having value about say 'this what the delta was - kim removed phone number' but keeping it simple sounds better for now - Kim updated her profile 11:59:38 q? 11:59:40 It all gets pretty zen pretty quickly "Does a profile have a name?" 11:59:50 q+ 11:59:54 i.e. there is no correct way to do this, it's all context dependent. 12:00:09 q? 12:00:16 eprodrom: i don't like idea of renaming Person to Profile 12:00:25 ... how many of us knows the different classes? 12:00:38 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles 12:00:40 ... if we need to represant Organization 12:00:44 -1 12:00:59 eprodrom: many add software process as actor 12:01:01 q- 12:01:08 ack bblfish 12:01:12 For example, cases where "profile" vs. "person" make a difference, can we just maybe do this in extensibility and not in the core Vocabulary? 12:01:18 bblfish: we need both Profile and Person 12:01:29 would the ability to have "alternate person that is also me" be possible? 12:01:33 q+ 12:01:36 you can edit profile *document* which differs from Person 12:01:45 bblfish: let's use FOAF 12:01:48 q+ 12:01:51 http://www.ibiblio.org/hhalpin/homepage/publications/indefenseofambiguity.html 12:01:55 if a single person in the real world has 2 accounts, they can link to their other "me" 12:02:04 ^^ Again, we've been down this rathole a few times 12:02:07 hhalpin: I agree, I think it's some fine parsing 12:02:11 bblfish: we can also use foaf:Person + sioc:UserAccount 12:02:13 ack elf-pavlik 12:02:13 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss Person's profile, Organization's profile, Event's profile, Venue's profile 12:02:17 otherewise known as a waste of time IMHO 12:02:20 I 12:02:49 I am for having two terms: Person/Persona and Profile 12:03:01 ack hhalpin 12:03:11 hhalpin: we can try to design perfect vocabulary 12:03:16 http-range14++ 12:03:17 ... but we will never agree 12:03:18 http-range14 has 1 karma 12:03:26 akuckartz++ 12:03:29 akuckartz has 2 karma 12:03:36 the case was made that user story 1 had this 12:03:39 hhalpin: where in approved user stories we need this difference 12:04:01 ... we can stay very ambiogous about real name or not 12:04:17 ack jasnell 12:04:21 ... in favor of not changing anything unless we really need it proved by use case 12:04:31 I *really* think we will never come to agreement on perfect vocabulary modeling 12:04:34 that is why we have extensibility 12:04:44 hhalpin++ 12:04:47 hhalpin has 6 karma 12:04:47 so, is there really a difference where we absolutely need a profile versus person difference? 12:04:51 I have to leave, unfortunately 12:04:53 Arnaud: do we have user story that requires making a difference 12:05:03 If it's not clear, then let's wait till we implement it and see if it becomes clear 12:05:12 q? 12:05:13 implementation++ 12:05:16 implementation has 1 karma 12:05:19 q+ re: ask aaronpk about semantics of h-card 12:05:25 s/ambiogous /ambiguous / 12:05:37 vocabulary definition discussed in abstract will go on indefinitely 12:05:55 jasnell: we don't need to take time to define it precisely 12:05:56 jasnell 12:06:09 enough that we can say Person updated Profile 12:06:11 one could have just the general notion of a document 12:06:13 To be honest, I don't really care, w can add it and if no-one uses it by the time we hit CR, we delete it. 12:06:19 q+ 12:06:49 I agree we don't need both, I just think Person name is misleading 12:06:56 jasnell: just having possibility to mark something as profile makes sense to me 12:07:01 Thanks, all 12:07:04 -eprodrom 12:07:05 ack elf-pavlik 12:07:06 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss ask aaronpk about semantics of h-card 12:07:18 rhiaro, I can live with "Person" as long as we're clear in the documentation that "Person" can be fake, and does NOT refer to a Human Being. 12:07:30 yep, we need to clear it can be fake 12:07:35 elf-pavlik: can one person can have multiple h-cards 12:07:46 i.e. multiple personae 12:08:00 aaronpk: h-card doesn't represent an account since has no service associated to it 12:08:08 ... it vaguely represents person 12:08:18 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical person 12:08:27 elf-pavlik: what about rel="me" 12:08:36 What if some one want s to model Person in an extension ? 12:08:38 http://meme.loqi.me/4azS58uU.jpg 12:08:44 aaronpk: it links URLs i can link to my twitter account which doesn't have h-card 12:08:58 q? 12:09:03 +1 12:09:19 bblfish: person Persona as superclass of person 12:09:19 ack bblfish 12:09:28 -1 to introducing Persona or renaming Person to Persona 12:09:35 q? 12:09:36 q+ 12:09:56 bblfish: we already have documents with ldp:Resource so we can already distinguish people from resources 12:10:03 ack sandro 12:10:16 sandro: fine with keeping Person and cleaning up documentation 12:10:27 +1 on the proposal 12:10:34 +1 12:10:36 +1 with clarifying documentation 12:10:43 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, use Person for profiles, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical/real person 12:10:44 -0,01 12:10:51 +1 12:10:52 +0.5 12:10:54 +1 12:10:55 +1 with clarifying documentation 12:10:55 -1 12:10:59 -1 12:11:06 +0 12:11:54 remove -1 12:11:56 "Represents an individual person." -> "Represents an entity that can be communicate, i.e. a person or a personae of a person" 12:12:00 deiu: can we vote on *definition* not on word? 12:12:23 sure, +1 12:12:31 melvster1_: the way we model thinks in FOAF community, we keep distinction between profile document and person herself 12:12:35 ^ that's my try of a definition 12:12:35 wrt to profiles, a profile can have a different creation date to a person has a birthdate - but if that never ever comes up as a problem, they can be one and the same 12:12:43 fwiw.. I would be +1 to the notion of adding a Profile object type 12:12:51 q+ re: to point two different issues discussed at the same time 12:13:05 q+ re: point two different issues discussed at the same time 12:13:08 q- re: 12:13:10 q? 12:13:17 Usually when you like a profile, it means you like a person 12:13:24 i.e. contextual ambiguity is resolved. 12:13:29 melvster1_: we had with tantek this coversation over time 12:13:41 ... i may like Rick Martin's page but not him as person 12:13:43 tantek has joined #social 12:13:43 melvster1_++ 12:13:45 melvster1_ has 1 karma 12:14:00 s/tantek/sandeep 12:14:19 Yes, but another person (in fact, most people) would "like" Ricky Martin's page because they like Ricky Martin, not his CSS 12:14:32 deiu: can profile represent multiple people 12:14:35 we are talking range14 but not by name 12:14:40 can we stop 12:14:40 yep 12:14:42 melvster1: my profile contains me and my public key 12:14:42 ??? 12:14:43 ++melvster 12:14:50 I'd hoped to avoid going this far 12:14:53 q? 12:15:41 Arnaud: do we see this distinction relevant in context of AS2.0 and our user stories? 12:16:06 bblfish: didn't we have user story to like something so melvster1 story makes sense 12:16:12 q? 12:16:24 bblfish: we can follow a person but like their personal page not them 12:16:27 fading very fast here. sleep was a long 24 hours ago 12:16:34 D: 12:16:42 q+ 12:16:52 aaronpk: on social web we talk about following people's content not them literaly 12:17:15 Arnaud: we could waste the entire day talking about http-range14 without using the name... but can we do something to stop that 12:17:21 bblfish: in the web you describe people, Cesar different than book about him 12:17:25 I agree, please move on 12:17:26 Again, humans resolve contextual ambiguity just fine 12:17:27 q? 12:17:28 We could resolve this by renaming Person ... 12:17:41 machines don't. 12:17:46 q+ to suggest that we don't need to resolve this. We don't need a way to talk about abstract "Person" 12:17:53 i think we need a range14 hammer 12:17:55 ack elf-pavlik 12:17:55 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss point two different issues discussed at the same time 12:18:02 or at least re-poll and see if we can resolve -1's 12:18:21 wseltzer++ 12:18:23 wseltzer has 1 karma 12:18:24 Didn't we have this conversation at our last f2f? 12:18:28 elf-pavlik++ 12:18:31 elf-pavlik has 21 karma 12:18:40 elf-pavlik++ 12:18:43 elf-pavlik has 22 karma 12:18:48 we need a resolution and to never speak about it again 12:18:58 I agree with what wzeltzer is about to say 12:19:00 No one realistically likes a font 12:19:01 hhalpin: indeed - so how about those previous f2f minutes? 12:19:06 using the "Facebook like button" 12:19:14 ack wseltzer 12:19:14 wseltzer, you wanted to suggest that we don't need to resolve this. We don't need a way to talk about abstract "Person" 12:19:18 They've been e-mailed to this, I should update the wiki 12:19:19 wseltzer++ 12:19:21 wseltzer has 2 karma 12:19:21 ++++++++++ 12:19:22 s/this/list 12:19:29 wseltzer: we don't need to think as Persona different than Person 12:19:39 so, it seems like it's possible to solve this either directly or with an extension 12:19:40 so maybe 12:19:51 it makes sense to have a document that defines a general process for this? 12:20:02 q+ 12:20:05 keep Person. add Profile 12:20:08 What if the profile was for a sentient AI? 12:20:10 http://meme.loqi.me/4azJaiQW.jpg 12:20:11 Profile is a description of a Person 12:20:26 jasnell++ 12:20:28 too much karma! 12:20:42 hhalpin: we can add Profile and if no one uses we just remove it 12:20:47 PROPOSED: Close ISSUE-26, add Profile 12:20:50 Proposal: Keep Person, add Profile 12:20:53 I think the current policy discriminates against sentient AI :( 12:20:57 +1 12:20:58 Robot rights! 12:21:02 +1 12:21:04 +1 12:21:05 +1 12:21:06 +1 12:21:07 This is why it was a mistake to bikeshed "author" into "actor" or "person" etc. 12:21:08 -0.5 unless Organization, Event and Venue also can have Profile 12:21:09 kaepora: it doesn't if sentient AI is a person 12:21:11 +1 12:21:23 +1 Okay, assuming we're still clarifying Person IS NOT HUMAN BEING. Otherwise -1 12:21:28 can clarify: Profile is a description of a thing, typically a person 12:21:45 +1 to closing this issue 12:21:53 +1 12:22:09 contentious socialwg issues are people too 12:22:11 +1 distinction to a Person and Persona +1 to distinction between those and Documents. But we don't need to define document because we have LDPRs for that 12:22:15 +1 12:22:15 elf draws diagram 12:22:19 I will write up a description of the Profile object, we can resolve the specific definition of it later. Let's close #26 and move on now 12:22:21 elf, stop! 12:22:22 If someone wants a "real individual human being not a personae" then they can use an extension vocabulary 12:22:33 -1 to any distinctions that no one has had to deal with in live public implementations 12:22:44 +1 12:23:09 I think that's a general purpose observation from tantek. 12:23:15 tantek, are you vetoing this proposal, just following on IRC??? 12:23:20 lost audio... 12:23:22 tantek - do you want to kill any addition of a profile? 12:23:23 the whole "person(a)/profile" thing is a rathole 12:23:27 Agreed 12:23:29 tantek, are you objecting to the proposal? 12:23:34 I realize this is a complicated discussion ... but certain participants bring real-world experience that is not deserving of dismissive tones 12:23:39 tantek, you're keeping us stuck in the rathole 12:23:41 jasnell: I'm here 12:23:42 it 12:23:48 However, my proposal is we let them keep it, and if no-one can demonstrate running code that uses it by end of CR, then we remove it. 12:23:53 AnnB++ 12:24:00 please determine consensus without me 12:24:00 That would hold, I think, in general for *all* vocabulary items 12:24:06 consider my input purely "informative" during the next two days 12:24:09 it's more important to achieve real consensus than to pound people into the ground 12:24:12 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-26, add Profile, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical/real person 12:24:20 +1 12:24:51 s/RESOLVED/forget/ 12:24:54 sandro: Arnaud used resolution not matching proposal! 12:25:19 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-26, add Profile, clarifying that a Person need not be a physical/real person 12:25:22 sandro: i take it back 12:25:23 +1 to clarication 12:25:33 issue-27 12:25:33 issue-27 -- How do we represent changes to a profile in an activity -- open 12:25:33 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/27 12:25:40 does adding profile solves this problem? 12:25:44 claudio has joined #social 12:25:45 Arnaud ^ 12:25:51 jasnell: yes it solves it 12:25:59 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-27, revolved with addition of Profile 12:26:07 Claudio Venezia joins (Telecom Italia) 12:26:08 q+ re: what do we use as value of as:actor ? 12:26:12 q- hhalpin 12:26:35 I think most people can't handle httpRange-14, especially late at night 12:27:07 jasnell: i prefer Evan to talk about issue-31 12:27:15 issue-33 12:27:15 issue-33 -- Deprecate or remove the "rating" property -- open 12:27:15 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/33 12:27:15 Issue-33 12:27:15 Issue-33 -- Deprecate or remove the "rating" property -- open 12:27:15 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/33 12:27:30 +1 12:27:38 to deprecate / remove 12:27:38 +1 12:27:40 microformats has rating, but defined differently 12:27:44 extension seems like a good idea 12:27:49 +1 to move to an deprecate / move to extension 12:27:49 then people can define however they like 12:28:01 I don't think rating is used in pump, but like is 12:28:04 like is used 12:28:17 there's no rating used afaik 12:28:21 cwebber2: i doubt we are going to remove like, just rating 12:28:21 Tsyesika, is that right? 12:28:33 pump doesn't use it 12:28:39 Arnaud: jasnell: I think Tsyesika should be able to answer this also 12:28:47 but also if we wantd to in the future we can always use extensions 12:28:47 and she just did 12:28:59 q- 12:29:13 deprecate it, yeahhhhh 12:29:15 +1 12:29:17 again :) 12:29:21 +1 12:29:21 +1 12:29:37 +1 12:30:01 when in doubt leave it out 12:30:16 RESOLVED: Close ISSUE-33, deprecate rating 12:30:24 tantek++ 12:30:25 (why not remove?) 12:30:27 tantek has 186 karma 12:30:31 issue-34 12:30:31 issue-34 -- Context vs. Motivation -- open 12:30:31 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/34 12:31:37 jasnell: currently vocabulary has property *context*, intentionally vague 12:31:55 ... intended for you to describe context in which activity took place 12:32:01 additionally, "context" is confusing because of name collision with json-ld 12:32:18 +1 context dangerous to use cause of colisions 12:32:23 i was wondering about that 12:32:29 (kind of like ID did back when?) 12:32:34 jasnell: context has a lot of meaning on itself 12:32:47 (is context meaningful without context?) 12:33:02 ... in web annotation model an annotation has motivation 12:33:12 tantek: we'll define the @context in the context for full context 12:33:17 oh sorry 12:33:22 context in the @context for context 12:33:24 I confused myself. 12:33:27 ;) 12:33:35 cwebber2++ for unintentionally making the point ;) 12:33:38 cwebber2 has 28 karma 12:33:40 :) 12:33:42 jasnell: too late for me to describe it clearly 12:33:56 ... we need to adapt to annotations model in AS2.0 12:33:58 q? 12:34:09 I think, at least, it's a good idea to drop "context", but then possibly consider whether to incorporate motivation 12:34:10 but yes 12:34:11 I agree 12:34:12 I'd like to see how Web Annotation uses it - I'd kick that decision to the Web Annotations WG 12:34:17 jasnell should be able to be awake :) 12:34:18 has anyone collected the annotations use cases? we keep requesting it. 12:34:20 jasnell: let's push it to later when i can concentrate more 12:34:34 tantek: not sure, but they commented on the activitypump tracker 12:34:34 Arnaud: i don't see reactions and we may need to accept that's it for today 12:34:38 postpone anything to do with "annotations model" until we have permalinks to annotations use cases 12:34:39 cwebber2: you mean asleep right? 12:34:48 jasnell: i appreciate all the inputs 12:34:49 +1 jasnell 12:34:51 jasnell++ 12:34:54 Great job staying up!! 12:34:55 Arnaud: thanks you for staying all night 12:34:55 jasnell has 16 karma 12:34:55 thank you jasnell ! 12:34:57 jasnell++ 12:34:57 use cases first, data model second 12:34:58  12:35:01 jasnell has 17 karma 12:35:08 -jasnell 12:35:13 Arnaud: that's it for AS2.0 for today 12:35:20 jasnell++ 12:35:23 jasnell has 18 karma 12:35:29 Tsyesika: well I meant that jasnell should be able to be awake when we address it, but yes that means he should sleep now :) 12:35:35 jasnell++ indeed 12:35:41 jasnell has 19 karma 12:35:42 Arnaud: agenda calls to talk about social API and tomorrow day ends earlier 12:35:50 cwebber2: oh okay 12:36:38 phone call is losing audio 12:36:48 doesn't sound like anything important anyway 12:37:22 I would prefer to do the specification walkthrough tomorrow when evan is around right? 12:37:26 Arnaud: let's start discussion on protocol 12:38:44 https://www.w3.org/Member/Meeting/2015ac/May/ 12:39:04 i still can't see that page 12:40:01 Arnaud: we lost Evan, can we discuss protocol without him? 12:40:10 i can't see that page either 12:40:34 not sure we are supposed to aaronpk 12:40:39 Arnaud: we have 3 main proposals, how do we get to resolution on how do we go 12:40:44 ... we saw some demos already last time 12:40:53 +1 deep dive into proposals 12:40:57 ... we need to deep dive into different proposals 12:41:05 but, it would be nice to maybe do activitypump tomorrow, at least 12:41:05 ben_thatmustbeme: maybe, but i got added as a guest for the event so I assumed i'd be able to see the schedule 12:41:08 ... who feels ready? 12:41:11 so that evan can be around 12:41:21 aaronpk++ 12:41:35 aaronpk: i have documents explaining how to implement 4 user stories using indie web stack 12:41:45 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/tree/master/user-stories 12:41:46 though I think if needed, Tsyesika is totally capable :) 12:41:57 ooh, thanks aaronpk 12:42:01 aaronpk++ 12:42:10 :D 12:42:16 Arnaud: let's start with it now and others can take it as inspiration 12:42:31 aaronpk: is there a link I should pull up locally? 12:42:33 cwebber2: aaronpk is way mroe propared it seems? lets let him go first 12:42:37 or just look at the spec on the indieweb wiki 12:42:38 yes 12:42:40 :D 12:42:43 I agree, aaronpk going first is good 12:42:51 -ben_thatmustbeme 12:43:45 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/tree/master/user-stories 12:43:48 is great btw aaronpk 12:44:15 that's the one 12:44:24 aaronpk++ 12:44:27 aaronpk has 792 karma 12:45:27 elf-pavlik: i will not scribe what document already explains, just reactions of others 12:45:52 aaronpk: displays https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-note.md 12:47:29 AnnB: maybe Tsyesika could also prepare equivalent example for ActivityPump 12:47:37 aaronpk: at least User posts a note 12:52:30 melvster1: we have two concepts - direct identifiers and indirect identifiers 12:52:52 http://www.w3.org/TR/webarch/#indirect-identification 12:53:10 not to bring up the "person" discussion ... I'm interested in whether or not that will play out in the Internet of Things 12:53:13 TimBL recommended avoiding use of indirect identifiers 12:53:47 hhalpin: acct: or mailto: identifiers identify accounts <- indirect identifiers 12:54:06 melvster1: facebook uses in graph protocol # identifiers 12:54:14 if "person" is not necessarily a real person ... then do we need to consider this definition in light of the vast IoT complexity coming down the pike? 12:54:28 (people seemed to say yes, we do) 12:55:02 deiu: situation looks differently when you search centralized repository 12:55:41 aaronpk: it changed from 2003 where people identified themselves by URL, now they even identify themselves by #hashtags 12:56:11 aaronpk: i'll illustrate some of the user stories with MicroPub, Webmention, Microformats and sometimes PubSubHubBub 12:56:24 ... User posts a note as very basic and fundamental 12:56:42 protocol walk-through .... 12:56:43 ... Replies as very complex and representative 12:56:54 Note that the Graph API is developer-facing, not user-facing. Anyways, we should just support *any* URI scheme for identifer. 12:56:55 ... SWAT0 as the only one officially approved 12:57:02 Although there is not yet a URI scheme for hashtags. 12:57:19 aaronpk: i also leave out authentication and assume that you have *Bearer* token 12:57:31 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-note.md 12:57:52 stevenroose has joined #social 12:57:58 sandro: what about new line characters? 12:58:03 aaronpk: i need to add explaination 12:58:27 aaronpk: you can also return short url in header, also some people implemented slug as parameter 12:58:34 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-note.md#2-updating-a-note 12:59:00 mp- scopes parameters as not of object that gets created 12:59:02 q+ 12:59:28 sandro: the reason you don't use PUT? 12:59:37 aaronpk: in general we always use GET and POST 12:59:53 ... more like RPC system 13:00:10 ... you interact with the endpoint not URL of resource you try to modify 13:00:25 ... it offloads work to separate system, in this case micropub endpoint 13:00:37 ... which one can use somewhere on separate server 13:00:49 bblfish: you could gave different systems which fit with your system 13:01:14 ... you could link also to RESTful endpoint via link relation similar as you do with rel="micropub" 13:01:53 aaronpk: at this point RESTful doesn't seem like a goal, especially that nowadays what people call REST actually doesn't do REST 13:02:05 Arnaud: what do i get when i do GET on this URL? 13:02:11 aaronpk: HTML with microformats 13:02:52 aaronpk: but you can look at parsed version 13:03:18 Arnaud: so your endpoint added a lot of metadata to the original entry 13:03:41 aaronpk: yes generated object can be quite different e.g. include published date 13:03:49 ... other story has minimal HTML example 13:04:09 Arnaud: this parsed version has microformat data extracted from HTML 13:04:35 ... does endpoint has full freedom in what to add / remove to the original data? 13:04:41 Should note that some others (me) use get with url= to get the source (form encoded) object 13:04:54 aaronpk: you can get source of the post you intend to edit 13:05:18 ... rhiaro has example with using markdown and getting markdown back from endpoint 13:05:27 ... we try two different ways for that currently 13:06:03 ... if for some reason HTML didn't include content, then retrieved source still should have it 13:06:33 Arnaud: how does followers know that you posted something? 13:06:43 aaronpk: Responses example will explain it 13:07:20 aaronpk: we support plain forms since it makes it easy to debug and see what happens 13:07:22 jsdr++ 13:07:28 jsdr has 1 karma 13:07:46 ... all programming languages support it, even embedded devices 13:07:58 bblfish: i wrote a proposal to do pingback in this way 13:08:11 ... people really didn't like javascript at that time 13:08:50 bblfish: i see you trying robots interact as well as user friendly, kind of low level browsers 13:09:14 ... we don't want to write specs for particular vocabulary 13:09:36 elf-pavlik: related issue https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/2 13:09:43 bblfish: how do you extend it? 13:10:01 aaronpk: examples aim to demonstrate user stories as precisely as i could read them 13:10:11 ... document exists explaining how it works in detail 13:10:21 http://indiewebcamp.com/micropub 13:10:38 aaronpk: micropub doesn't require to change anything when you want to add new terms to vocabulary 13:11:06 q+ 13:11:19 aaronpk: for the basic case, every microformant endpoint supports h-entry content 13:11:31 ... my endpoint has custom support to posting food types of posts 13:11:53 ... but if someone uses my app other people's endpoint will not undersand it 13:11:53 but there's no way to specify the vocab? 13:12:34 aaronpk: challange is, if someone doesn't support my extension - how the app should behave ? 13:12:57 ... should they render everything as text etc. 13:13:06 what happens when you have a server that accepts "runs", but it thinks it's about a program running 13:13:19 and your server meant to track someone running a mile? 13:13:36 sandro: capability discovery is one more option 13:14:00 Cwebber. If it's not part of the standard it should be app prefixed 13:14:02 elf-pavlik: does challenge come with sidefects? 13:14:10 aaronpk: no, only that you don't know how to display it 13:14:14 ben_thatmustbeme: how does app prefixing work? 13:14:16 X-myapp-run 13:14:27 As the field name 13:14:47 ben_thatmustbeme: hm 13:14:55 I believe aaronpk uses x-p3k-food for example 13:14:59 sandro: that argues to post microformats, so server can just display them 13:15:21 aaronpk: if you understand the h-entry vocabulary then can render it 13:15:28 q? 13:15:44 aaronpk: i would like to get to the long one 13:15:59 ack bblfish 13:16:00 Arnaud: more general conversation we can keep for later 13:16:13 q- hhalpin 13:16:20 Sandro: we have had a few discussions of being able to discover support. I'm in favour of listing all types supported on a query for it 13:16:55 s/:/,/ 13:17:32 claudio has joined #social 13:18:24 now https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/user-posts-a-file.md 13:18:45 aaronpk: cropping happens outside of those tools 13:19:36 ... design based on microformats vocabulary where photo gets put in *photo* property 13:19:57 aaronpk: this is essentially an example of how to do a post with non-text content in Micropub 13:20:12 ... disclaimer in practice no one write that multipart noise by hand, libraries do that! 13:21:06 sandro: we can attach simple html5 app showing how to do that or at least curl commands 13:21:23 bblfish: why do we need to have it standarized? 13:21:38 sandro: that is, a snippet of JS, hopefully 1-5 lines. 13:21:38 aaronpk: interesting point and it relates to capabilities discovery 13:22:32 bblfish: do you want robots to read forms, while nowadays people do it 13:22:54 Arnaud: h-entry means "I want to make a post" ? 13:23:19 aaronpk: if you don't add publish date it will use current date 13:23:34 ... if you want to name a photo you just add another parameter 13:23:58 user stories seem to be often that way :) 13:23:58 q? 13:24:00 q+ 13:24:01 aaronpk: i've learned that those user stories stay vague and we need to clarify them 13:24:12 I'm glad we have them! 13:24:16 elf-pavlik: ISSUES please in https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr 13:24:33 is vagueness a feature? discuss! ;) 13:25:58 aaronpk: it doesn't matter where endpoint stores the photo! it can upload it to S3 bucket whatever 13:26:29 Arnaud: so it creates two resources 1) with binary 2) with information about photo 13:26:44 elf-pavlik: please see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject 13:27:08 aaronpk: endpoints can do whatever they like with the photo 13:27:45 ... response doesn't give you URL to encoding .jpg but you can GET the resouce and find it in HTML+Microformats 13:28:06 Arnaud: it touches point PUT versus POST 13:28:45 aaronpk: you can't put to photo URL since it can have different credentials which only endpoint can use 13:28:54 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/2 13:29:59 elf-pavlik: we can think of h= as type= 13:30:10 aaronpk: you could also use mp-h= 13:30:29 aaronpk: h = upside down micro symbol - Microformats 13:30:49 ... mp-h= could make more sense since you don't use it in your content 13:31:17 aaronpk: this is really helpful btw 13:31:42 aaronpk: there are some user stories not brought up here, which I think might be interesting to address 13:31:48 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Reading_a_user.27s_recent_posts 13:31:51 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Following_a_person 13:31:55 aaronpk: SWAT-0 13:31:55 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Inbox 13:31:58 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Share_content_with_single_individuals 13:32:27 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/SWAT0.md 13:32:44 i changed names to use names of people participating in IndieWeb community 13:33:20 those are all from "entirely positive" https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories 13:33:27 in microformats category = tag 13:33:31 ben_thatmustbeme: ok, thanks 13:33:33 oops 13:33:35 aaronpk: we use the same property *category* as we would use for text tags 13:33:35 auuugh 13:33:39 ben_thatmustbeme, thanks ;p 13:33:52 aaronpk: i wish we would name it just *tag* 13:33:56 ben_thatmustbeme, unfortunately that's what my irc client does by default 13:34:15 aaronpk: but in this case you use person URL as value instead of string 13:34:57 sandro: does people assume that @aaronpk means twitter username? 13:35:22 aaronpk: in a way, it got sindicated to twitter and than mentioned person corectly 13:35:32 q+ 13:36:57 Arnaud: where did the endpoint got "People" information from? 13:37:01 q+ 13:37:05 https://ben.thatmustbe.me/note/2015/4/1/4/ 13:37:20 My test of tagging tantek 13:37:51 elf-pavlik: you could have more specific property which would imply value a person 13:38:05 aaronpk: please consider this as early exploration with person tagging 13:38:07 It's not immediate 13:38:09 but 13:38:14 I put it on IRC above: 13:38:18 ack cwebber 13:38:30 sandro: maybe think of it as link-based tagging (cf keyword tagging) , rather than PERSON tagging 13:38:43 cwebber2: first of all THANK YOU A LOT aaronpk - very helpful! 13:39:11 akuckartz has joined #social 13:39:16 aaronpk++ 13:39:18 ... i know you didn't prepare but can you comment on those stories? 13:39:19 aaronpk has 793 karma 13:39:29 Arnaud: let's wait for aaronpk to finish with this story 13:39:32 q- 13:39:37 sorry! 13:40:39 cwebber2, give me 20 minutes to get to the office and I may be able to 13:40:54 ben_thatmustbeme++ thank you :) 13:40:56 ben_thatmustbeme has 69 karma 13:42:33 Several of them are not worked out yet. But I have some ideas for sure 13:44:03 aaronpk: we can't assume that Barnaby goes to Bent's site to see the photo 13:45:29 what is mp-? 13:45:38 aaronpk: this story didn't have act of starting following but other story has it 13:45:53 micropub non content property AFAIU 13:46:15 (oh right - thanks elf-pavlik ) 13:47:11 aaronpk: step 5 - most attempts in SWAT0 failed here 13:47:54 ... the saddle thing ... i need to loo at http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/federatedsocialweb/wiki/SWAT0 13:48:10 ... tantek didn't subscribed to ben but he still received notification 13:48:46 sandro: maybe split SWAT0 final point into to -- the tagged person and the subscibing person 13:50:13 q+ re: assumptions about responsibilities of servers and clients (yes plural editor apps and reader apps) 13:51:58 hhalpin has joined #social 13:51:58 hhalpin: people tried to do that with Salmon but possibly only Evan and one more person ever implemented it 13:52:03 notes the prior art is here: 13:52:20 aaronpk: mentions difference between tagging on the photo or mention in the post 13:52:25 http://www.salmon-protocol.org/ 13:52:45 It doesn't do the summarizes, but. it worries about distributing and re-distributing comments, ordering, etc 13:53:14 q+ 13:53:29 obergix: you can't comment on the photo and you could get ddosed 13:54:25 I appreciate aaronpk's articulate aand calm presentation and answering of questions 13:54:35 AnnB: I agree! 13:54:39 aaronpk: Responses gave me really good exercise, i encourage everyone to try implementing it! 13:54:41 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/blob/master/user-stories/responses.md 13:54:53 aaronpk is doing great 13:55:20 aaronpk: I find Inbox stream loaded term and sounding pump.io specific 13:56:28 ... explains PubSubHubBub 13:57:57 +ben_thatmustbeme 13:58:12 Zakim, mute me 13:58:12 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 13:58:41 aaronpk: need to write not explaining how we know that we deal with like 14:00:11 rhiaro++ https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/9 14:00:13 elf-pavlik I already did it 14:00:14 rhiaro has 71 karma 14:00:42 -INRIA 14:01:08 sandro, " -INRIA" i'm gone 14:01:11 -cwebber2 14:01:16 -ben_thatmustbeme 14:01:16 Team_(social)07:47Z has ended 14:01:18 Attendees were jasnell, INRIA, eprodrom, cwebber2, +1.401.305.aaaa, ben_thatmustbeme 14:01:24 Team_(social)07:47Z has now started 14:01:31 +??P2 14:01:42 Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:01:42 +cwebber2; got it 14:01:45 zakim, room for 10 for 600 minutes? 14:01:47 I don't hear any audio 14:01:49 sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again 14:02:16 cwebber, we need your help reconnecting us 14:02:16 -cwebber2 14:02:17 Team_(social)07:47Z has ended 14:02:17 Attendees were cwebber2 14:02:20 someone listened on VoIP? 14:02:20 cwebber2 14:02:20 ben_thatmustbeme? 14:02:22 cwebber2, the conference just closed, sandro is working to fix it 14:02:32 Arnaud: how can I help? 14:02:35 zakim, room for 10 for 120 minutes? 14:02:37 sorry, sandro; could not schedule an adhoc conference; passcode overlap; if you do not have a fixed code you may try again 14:02:44 zakim, call INRIA-bridge 14:02:44 ok, wseltzer; the call is being made 14:02:44 Team_(social)07:47Z has now started 14:02:46 +INRIA 14:03:15 Pi code Organisateur: 21830239, Pin code Participant: 23695487) 14:03:16 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:03:16 On the phone I see INRIA 14:03:40 +ben_thatmustbeme 14:03:43 Hey everyone, what's the plan until dinner? 14:03:44 Zakim, mute me 14:03:44 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 14:03:56 (Sorry, I'm at my office downstairs) 14:04:06 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:04:06 On the phone I see INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme (muted) 14:04:15 +??P2 14:04:15 oh... i'm getting some error audio 14:04:22 ben_thatmustbeme, type 23695487# 14:04:34 -??P2 14:04:34 Zakim, unmute me 14:04:36 ben_thatmustbeme should no longer be muted 14:04:45 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:04:45 On the phone I see INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme 14:04:49 ben? 14:04:56 we need you to help by entering the code 14:05:01 i tried 14:05:08 zakim, drop INRIA 14:05:08 INRIA is being disconnected 14:05:09 -INRIA 14:05:15 ok, let's try again 14:05:16 zakim, dial INRIA-bridge 14:05:16 ok, sandro; the call is being made 14:05:17 +INRIA 14:05:23 when you hear the french prompt, dial in the code 14:05:23 ben_thatmustbeme, type 23695487# again ? 14:05:32 Oh I see 14:05:41 +??P2 14:05:43 yes 14:05:47 Zakim, unmute me 14:05:47 ben_thatmustbeme was not muted, ben_thatmustbeme 14:05:51 I can hear 14:05:56 Zakim, unmute me 14:05:56 ben_thatmustbeme was not muted, ben_thatmustbeme 14:06:07 Zakim, mute me 14:06:07 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 14:06:16 aaronpk: we talk about notifying others about like 14:10:41 zakim, who's on the phone? 14:10:41 On the phone I see INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), ??P2 14:12:12 cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Following_a_person is currently done in a reader. I want to move the list of who to follow in to users own sites (a following list) then use micropub to create an entry with h=card&mp-action=follow&url= 14:13:27 cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Reading_a_user.27s_recent_posts does not need micropub, thats just polling the person's feed url (parse microformats if its in some sort of reader perhaps) 14:14:21 stevenroose has joined #social 14:14:45 ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber: I experimented with follow posts at rhiaro.co.uk/follows 14:14:46 Zakim, ??P2 is me 14:14:46 +cwebber2; got it 14:14:56 with a u-follow-of property or something 14:15:33 ben_thatmustbeme: rhiaro_: thanks! 14:16:10 cwebber2, https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Share_content_with_single_individuals aaronpk has already been able to do this, when he posts the note it does he sets private entity, i don't know if he does that through micropub, i dont' think so. but could be, and would be cool. if he shares a note with me, it needs to be given an auth token when polling / viewing to know its me, then its just a matter of notifying (webmention 14:16:10 but when it polls it will get Denied, so it tries again with auth token, now it knows its private) 14:16:23 rhiaro_: I do like that you have sparql on pages :) 14:16:31 cwebber2, ben_thatmustbeme: so I do a regular micropub post with the experimental follow-of property, not an action 14:16:35 ACTION: pelf to draw Follow vs. Subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently 14:16:35 Created ACTION-60 - Draw follow vs. subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-05-11]. 14:17:24 cwebber2, on that one check out http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging 14:17:39 ben_thatmustbeme: thanks, looking 14:18:01 tantek has joined #social 14:18:48 cwebber2, finally on http://indiewebcamp.com/indieweb-messaging this is just a reader really (push consumer) 14:18:50 aaronpk: we don't follow REST here... 14:18:56 some parts of that one not worked out there 14:19:46 aaronpk: tweeter just implemented "quoted" tweet 14:19:58 s/tweeter/twitter/ 14:20:09 ... facebook has share button and let's you add extra content 14:21:42 ben_thatmustbeme: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Reading_a_user.27s_recent_posts as being done by just reading an rss/atom feed also doesn't work with private communication though 14:21:44 elf-pavlik: could you use share-of property? 14:21:57 aaronpk: we need to gather more experience for that 14:22:03 it does assume that all communication is public, right? 14:22:35 elf-pavlik: facebook show shares of post 14:23:04 obergix: if i share privately it works differently 14:23:18 aaronpk: no stories include private content so far 14:23:28 sandro: i would like my site to make a copy of it 14:24:02 I suppose it might be possible for the inbox to have a feed that's fetched separately with a bearer token though 14:24:04 cwebber, think of it more as private messaging being direct messaging in twitter or message in FB. they never appear in streams 14:24:23 q? 14:24:23 but you can always pass an auth key and the persons feed could include any posts you are allowed to see 14:24:25 q+ 14:24:38 applauses 14:24:43 aaronpk++ 14:24:45 aaronpk has 794 karma 14:24:47 aaronpk: stories need some clarifications before freezing them 14:25:08 please use: https://github.com/w3c-social/social-ucr/issues 14:25:52 q? 14:26:30 -ben_thatmustbeme 14:26:46 q+ re: responsibilities of servers and clients (yes plural e.g. content editors and readers/browsers) 14:27:09 ben_thatmustbeme, I could probably configure ERC to do it 14:27:25 ben_thatmustbeme, I might even be able to script it to behave differently on this network, but I find that idea to be annoying :) 14:27:26 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories 14:27:33 deiu ^ we can go from top 14:29:07 so, 5 minute break was it? 14:29:14 I can't tell from over here 14:29:19 Arnaud: we can write same as aaronpk did so we can compare them side by side 14:33:20 +ben_thatmustbeme 14:35:01 aaronpk, cwebber2 and i ask how long of a break is this? 14:35:34 nobody is really sure, everyone wanted a break 14:35:38 probably like 10 minutes 14:40:02 Arnaud has joined #social 14:48:13 so, is the meeting still happening at this point? 14:48:19 or is it just socializing mostly? 14:48:24 just chatter right now 14:48:37 ok! just wondering if I'm staying around or not 14:48:50 -ben_thatmustbeme 14:48:58 eprodrom has joined #social 14:49:06 +ben_thatmustbeme 14:49:17 Zakim, mute me 14:49:17 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 14:49:57 +eprodrom 14:50:12 Are we on break? 14:51:19 eprodrom: yes, though I don't know if the break is being resumed from 14:51:27 Gotcha 14:51:30 So what'd I miss? 14:51:35 Are we doing all Turtle now? 14:51:47 eprodrom: 100% turtle delivered over SOAP 14:51:48 eprodrom, have a quck question for you for now 14:51:53 OK 14:51:57 cwebber2: great 14:52:01 ben_thatmustbeme: shoot 14:52:06 (metaphorically) 14:52:21 Assuming that you mean "quick" and not some word I don't know. 14:52:22 pulling up.. one sec, it was a clarification on a user story you created 14:52:29 Oh, cool. 14:52:48 aaronpk did a really clear job of demos tying the protocol to user stories 14:52:49 hey eprodrom! yes i had some questions 14:52:49 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Responses 14:52:52 that's what you missed :) 14:53:00 whoo resuming 14:53:06 on part 2, "and others" meaning Ben's followers or alexa's followers? 14:53:07 scribenick: rhiaro_ 14:53:26 Arnaud: harry has been on the queue for a while 14:53:26 q? 14:53:31 ack hhalpin 14:53:32 harry: Would like to structure next discussion 14:53:44 ... It's obvious micropub covers the first 4 user stories really well, impressive 14:53:53 ... We shouldn't question too much technical choices in user stories 14:54:05 ... tomorrow, don't drill too much down into technology 14:54:09 ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, good question 14:54:13 At least Ben's followers 14:54:14 ... but there is a time and a place to talk about differences in methodologies 14:54:18 ... now would be a good time to do it 14:54:19 melvster1_ has joined #social 14:54:27 Probably also the audience for Alexa's video 14:54:27 ... q&a about mircropub design issues 14:54:30 ... some comments: 14:54:44 ... 1) why was federation an optional item in charter? 14:54:58 ... there was some PuSH/Salmon stuff in the background 14:55:07 ... opening up spam problems, privacy and security concerns 14:55:11 ... coudl be really hard to deliver 14:55:18 ... that's why it's a separate deliverable 14:55:24 ... was interesting that micropub ends up using PuSH 14:55:28 eprodrom, aaronpk and I were going back and forth on how to model that, i figured ben's followers, which meant a "like" post, but the other can be done from PuSH 14:55:31 ... useful to discuss if that's something we want to keep 14:55:40 ... most crypto/security stuff I'd like to keep in federation deliverable 14:55:41 ben_thatmustbeme: It's a tricky problem 14:55:52 ... We're here at INRIA with the security group 14:56:01 ... Interesting to see not REST in micropub 14:56:03 eprodrom: the question was more what was your intent in writing the story 14:56:13 ... Issues around how to fit in with everything else, seems microformats-centric 14:56:27 ... this mp- mechanism. Coudl we have an equivalent url based thing going on 14:56:33 ... for extensibility 14:56:44 ... Also mf2 does have a single algorithm mapping to json and back 14:56:46 aaronpk: yes, and like I said it would definitely be Ben's followers and probably the audience for Alexa's video 14:56:54 ... in case that helps bridge the json-ld gap to microformats 14:57:01 https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues 14:57:04 ... everything you did doesn't use json 14:57:04 aaronpk: the second is much harder 14:57:12 ... the demos were not doen using json, but could be doen using json 14:57:23 ... the extensibility vocabulary question too 14:57:30 aaronpk: the extensibility thing, it's been addressed 14:57:45 ... mf2 defines a parsing scheme to turn html into a data structure. parsing scheme does not care about vocabulary 14:58:01 ... could parse html into a totally fine datastrcutre that is meaningless to a consumer 14:58:10 sandro: is it psosible to turn all json into microformats algorithmically? 14:58:12 aaronpk: no 14:58:23 sandro: things that look at the basic microformats structure can turn that into html? 14:58:27 aaronpk: pretty sure that would work 14:58:35 ... should be able to recreate an html equivalent, might not be the same as original 14:58:43 ... So for extensibility, that's in the vocabulary 14:58:54 q+ 14:58:55 ... by all means, create new kinds of h-entry posts and add arbitrary properties, and parsers will work 14:59:04 ... but consumers might not be aware of new ones 14:59:17 ... Extensibilitiy in terms of vocabulary works with that 14:59:22 ... With micropub, I wanted to do the same thing 14:59:39 ... The syntax portion of micropub is the same as syntax of microformats, so it can be extended withotu changing parser level of micropub 14:59:44 ... that's the reason for mp-* 14:59:54 is to scope all control-level params into their own bucket, so everything else is considered content 15:00:05 ... if you wanted ot add new property to h-entry, like foo, you can do that in your html 15:00:09 ... it'll show up in parsed version 15:00:28 ... if you want to create using micropub, you can create new h=entry with foo=bar property, server will understand 15:00:37 ... generic micropub endpoint could take anything you put in and parse out in html 15:00:42 ... would be bidirectionally compatible 15:00:51 elf-pavlik: why mp-* not headers? 15:00:57 aaronpk: headers usually harder for clients 15:01:06 ... in a form you'd end up with hidden form elements 15:01:09 ... for control things 15:01:15 ... like tokens and junk like that 15:01:30 ... parsing headers is usually more work, and differs depending on server 15:02:00 harry: re: extensibility I agree in theory that works but needs workign through 15:02:10 sandro: this is json level extensibility not json-ld 15:02:22 ... json-ld means two extesnions are never going to accidentally do the same property 15:02:30 bblfish: I can see harry's point 15:02:34 ... Really happy to see this stuff 15:02:44 ... even though we might have to put into different groups of standards 15:03:09 ... important for different groups to show complete story that includes federation 15:03:30 ... everyone should do this 15:03:42 ... distinction about federation isn't clear 15:03:47 ... these demos of stories help 15:04:04 Arnaud: intially the draft was the way it was for fear of being a target we could never reach 15:04:11 ... but if we sovle both problems at once, nobody is going to complain 15:04:18 harry: nicest thing about micropub is that it's very simple 15:04:30 q? 15:04:34 ack eprodrom 15:04:36 AnnB has joined #social 15:04:52 eprodrom go ahead :) 15:04:56 you go ahead! no you go ahead! :) 15:05:04 bblfish has joined #social 15:05:05 we're in france, not portland 15:05:12 eprodrom: there is clearly a great use case for having a client api regardless of federation 15:05:17 ... doesnt' need to be federated from the get-go 15:05:21 ... value in having a social client api 15:05:32 q? 15:05:33 ... we documented half a dozen or more social apis shows that a lot of peopel are doing this 15:06:00 q+ 15:06:04 ... second thing: are we going to standardise this payload format which is almost entirely different from the payload format that we have as our social data syntax 15:06:20 ... what good reason for this? I'm not convinced that json based apis are too hard for developers 15:06:22 ... there are a ton 15:06:40 ack elf-pavlik 15:06:40 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss responsibilities of servers and clients (yes plural e.g. content editors and readers/browsers) 15:06:48 elf-pavlik: would liek that we all try to very clearly describe which responsibility goes where 15:06:51 pfefferle has joined #social 15:06:58 ... in different architectures, eg. micropub assumes server can render data 15:07:03 ... ldp doesn't make this assumption 15:07:16 ... Made an issue about specifying assumptions 15:07:19 ... Which responsibility where? 15:07:22 ... Same with side effects 15:07:29 ... Server, or client? 15:07:35 ... And specify which approach puts them where 15:07:41 ... For example, I dont need my server to render something 15:07:55 ... not just one client one backend, we could have reader, editor client, different backend, different servers 15:08:00 eprodrom, fwiw, I agree that there's value in having a distinction between client->server stuff and federation, though I don't agree that means having to deliver two different documents 15:08:04 ... for indieweb I can have webmention on one server, micropub on different domain 15:08:11 ... with PuSH there's a third 15:08:15 eg, mediagoblin has implemented the client->server, but not the server<->server stuff 15:08:17 ... So be very clear which componants have which responsibility 15:08:33 but I think there's a lot of value in having us consider the whole thing altogether 15:08:36 ... And with content type, indieweb reads everythign as html 15:08:39 even though we only got have of it done 15:08:41 ... there's nothing for if the client requests json 15:08:41 so far :) 15:08:50 ... push updates also html? 15:08:54 aaronpk: PuSH works with json if you want 15:09:07 elf-pavlik: json has advantage of being one format that goes in both directions 15:09:24 ack bblfish 15:09:38 bblfish: in the last meeting we agreed we're not here to create one standard yet 15:09:47 ... tring to see how these different systems work, learnring from each other 15:10:19 ... what we have to remember is we're goign to have to be able to communicate across these systems, we already have so many standard syntaxes 15:10:23 ... now we have a microsyntax for queries 15:10:36 ... impossible for anyone trying to build a system to learn all these different things 15:10:57 ... for someone who wants to be able to pull in a library to work with different systems, would be some kind of semantic description of these properties 15:11:28 ... my system process json-ld, when it reads form encoding, it could know this means this 15:11:35 ... a translation from attribute-value encoding into rdf graphs 15:11:45 ... if that existed, you could make itmassively extensible 15:12:05 ... or if you want to post, you can find out how to fit peices of information into some slots 15:12:19 ... you know that the result of sending these attribute values will send to your graph 15:12:32 aaronpk: documentation? 15:12:36 bblfish: machien readable documentation 15:12:40 harry: i woudl call it a shim 15:13:02 bblfish: has to be automatic 15:13:05 q+ 15:13:11 AnnB: that seems hugely difficult 15:13:24 bblfish: I can try to think about that 15:13:31 sandro: json-ld context for microformats vocabulary 15:13:33 ... ? 15:13:43 bblfish: for the attribute value query thing 15:13:48 aaronpk: it's the same vocabulary as microformats 15:13:54 I'm not a developer .. so you guys should say if that's hard or not 15:13:56 sandro: json-ld context for that woudl give you your semantics 15:14:10 bblfish: woudl be nice to have a generic way to extend vocabulary 15:14:10 q+ 15:14:14 in other words, rhiaro should keep working on her work for mapping microformats<->rdf :) 15:14:22 sandro: microformats believes in unified central vocab 15:14:23 q+ to shortly mention not obvious *advantage* of using URIs for vocab terms which comes of advantage in decentralized deoployments 15:14:36 bblfish: we woudl like to be able to communicate 15:14:39 ... they don't have to maintain it 15:15:00 ... could think of attribute-values as sparql queries 15:15:08 ... {upside down sparql} 15:15:27 sandro: shim is code that translate from one data format to another 15:16:07 elf-pavlik: can you make a developer user story? 15:16:12 on airplanes we try to reduce the numbers of shims 15:16:19 !!! 15:16:21 sandro: james said extensibility is essential 15:16:24 AnnB: in software, too 15:16:25 pfefferle_ has joined #social 15:16:28 ... I think he meant decentralised 15:16:37 ... people can extend without permission 15:16:42 ... still with interoperability 15:16:50 extensibility seems important to me 15:16:56 and ditto interoperability 15:17:01 ... still not collide with other people accidentally 15:17:05 That is a great way to put it 15:17:06 but maybe that's nirvana and not realistic 15:17:20 Arnaud: from IBM, our interest is not developing facebook 15:17:29 ... Connectiosn not our primary target 15:17:37 ... we have products in many different areas, more to do with workflow management 15:17:42 ... completely different architecture 15:17:55 +1 from my company 15:18:01 q+ 15:18:11 ... not going to be rendering html the way you would do 15:18:18 ... that's why extensibility is very important 15:18:21 ... different types of activities 15:18:28 sandro: eg. travel requests, multiple vendors 15:18:37 ... so you could end up with a collision 15:18:40 Isn't that why we have standards groups? 15:18:45 Arnaud: if it's by domian you could avoid collision 15:18:48 "still not collide with other people accidentally" can be difficult to say for certain depending on how the extensabiilty is done, but its good to get it as rare as possible, x-p3k-food will be very unlikely for someone else to use p3k prefix on things 15:18:58 That's what namespaces are for 15:19:09 q? 15:19:19 aaronpk: if you're using say two different travel request systems that are correctly namespaced, they dont' work with each other? 15:19:27 sandro: correct 15:19:28 yes, but then namespaces have to be something centrally controlled, (url) etc 15:19:43 aaronpk: namespaceing makes it less likely for interoperable implementations to exist 15:19:50 ... it's easier to deviate and never merge 15:19:57 sandro: still economic and social pressure to merge 15:20:00 ben_thatmustbeme: Yes, URLs are "centralized", but that's pretty reasonable to deal with 15:20:19 DNS is about as distributed as it's possible to do 15:20:19 aaronpk: html, with browsers implementing same tag names that all behave slightly differently 15:20:32 sandro: some of us think decentralised extensibility is absolutely essential as background 15:20:32 p3k is a namespace, but its just defined by the user, without need to any sort of namespace specifically defined 15:20:35 q? 15:20:38 ... I'm trying to let go of that and put it on the table 15:20:48 harry: in the charter we have uri based extensibiliity 15:20:50 it was done to keep simple, like css prefixing 15:20:53 ... we're using json-ld and as2 15:21:02 ... aaron said we can fit it into micropub, what else is missing? 15:21:17 aaronpk: the only way to get non-conflicting extensibility is to use prefixes (on strings) 15:21:51 ... no definition at the top, not formal 15:21:54 sandro: so it's weak 15:22:07 Arnaud: queue time 15:22:08 ack hhalpin 15:22:12 q? 15:22:27 harry: chartered deliverable. every system in order to communicate will have some level of shim 15:22:29 aaronpk: example: in extending new things for my food postings, I prefix them with p3k- to make sure to distinquish those from anyone else's extensions 15:22:37 ... that being said we need convergance on the api 15:22:47 ... Just a reminder. 15:22:48 q? 15:22:48 ack eprodrom 15:22:50 shepazu_ has joined #social 15:23:24 eprodrom: aaron, if the group decided to vote today that micropub woudl henceforth use activitystreams json or turtle as payload, that wouldn't change micropub, right? 15:23:31 ... you'd contineu using whatever you feel like using? 15:23:35 sandro: we could do p3k.food or io.p3k.food or http://p3k.io/food 15:23:38 ... Our decision right now is not to take micropub or leave it 15:23:43 aaronpk: not absolutely 15:23:52 ... definitely some things I would not want to deal with, but open to suggestions 15:24:04 coupling with microformats issue - https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues/2 15:24:32 eprodrom: potentially for us two tracks, where we recommend micropub but we also build json based social api more inline with charter 15:24:44 ... we'll use the social data syntax in our social api 15:24:48 ... that's one possibility 15:25:11 ... Building a bridge seems like a failure to come up with a standard 15:25:35 ... What I/m proposing is, if we're jammed up on payloads, extensibility etc, then we concentrate on providing an api for social interactions 15:25:41 q+ 15:25:43 ... and see what happens in the future 15:25:47 q+ if the bridge is very generic, giving a way to allow all web forms to be transformed to RDF then I think at least as a note it would be good 15:25:56 q? 15:25:58 Arnaud: typically as a wg we would define standard and if there are bridges taht need to be developed that would not be done by the wg 15:26:05 q+ 15:26:21 ... if peopel are interestd in transitioning to the standard we would biuld bridges if there was value in that 15:26:25 ack elf-pavlik 15:26:25 elf-pavlik, you wanted to shortly mention not obvious *advantage* of using URIs for vocab terms which comes of advantage in decentralized deoployments 15:26:26 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax 15:26:31 elf-pavlik: check social syntax page 15:26:44 ... where I try to distinguish between mf vocab, seralisations and data model 15:26:52 ... we could have microformat vocab serialsed to json 15:27:03 q- 15:27:03 ... we could possibly also use microformats in rdfa (doesn't make sense, but) 15:27:11 ... it's not one brittle thing, could extract parts 15:27:17 +1 microformats vocabulary serialized in RDFa! (j/k) 15:27:27 ... Also advantage of using URIs for vocab terms that might not be obvious 15:27:33 ... if you just use strings for uris you can't dereference them 15:27:47 ... if you make small updates to vocabulary you need orchestrated migration to deployments 15:28:06 ... advantages to being able to dereference vocabulary uris 15:28:10 ... you can communicate with a term 15:28:17 ... we can look at advantages and disadvantages 15:28:23 ... this is something microformats doesn't provide 15:28:33 ... we cannot always say 'developers dont do this so it doesnt make sense' 15:28:41 ... most developers work with centralised systems 15:28:52 ... should consider a few nuances 15:28:54 Arnaud: good point 15:28:57 ... not all or nothing type of choice 15:29:09 ... Architecture, which agents are involved, where you make your post, how you make your post, what format 15:29:14 q+ to discuss the "all-or-nothing" re: micropub 15:29:17 ... all this can be subjhect to different discussions 15:29:19 ack hhalpin 15:29:25 harry: just reminding people to go back to charter 15:29:38 s/subjhect/subject/ 15:29:46 ... I love the three or four ways we can embed rdf into webpages (it's a standardisation failure) 15:29:58 ... mf is the larges empirically 15:30:03 ... then questionably rdfa 15:30:22 ... (according to last neutral academic study) 15:30:35 google CREATED rdfa, so thats something of a questionable source 15:30:46 no, wait, that was schema 15:30:47 ... Arguement should be do not have embedding data in the charter. Charter is json/json-ld. Should probably stick to moving json around 15:30:57 :) 15:31:04 ... But processing into html is possible 15:31:07 ... you could skip straight to that 15:31:14 ... but if you recieved json, you could read that into html 15:31:19 ben_thatmustbeme: yeah, RDFa had a lot of work from non-google entities 15:31:23 q? 15:31:24 including creative commons 15:31:33 ... serialisation are not blockers, they're in the charter 15:31:42 ... extensibility is uri based in charter 15:31:51 ... would be good to hook in context to uri in micropub 15:31:56 ... More discussion needed about REST 15:32:00 ... pretty big difference 15:32:02 comments about schema.org being mostly google-oriented, that's true I think :) 15:32:03 ... And how we name endp;oints 15:32:08 rdfa i have seen a lot in academic places, library sciences seemed to use it a lot, as well as other standards too 15:32:20 ... More convergance between activitypump and micropub 15:32:27 aaronpk: no they can be whatever you want, discoverable 15:32:32 sandro: that's interesting 15:32:37 ... pretty straightfoward bridge 15:32:41 ... to say that .. 15:32:46 schema.org has endorsed rdfa along with microdata 15:32:52 ... in LDP we use PATCH for modifying in place without changing what you don't need to change 15:32:55 ... PATCH is new http verb 15:33:03 ... before it was widely supported you did PATCH over POST 15:33:23 ... so I imagine you have an endpoint where you can do all yoru things via POST or you can do restful to other uris 15:33:33 ... if you want to support restufl operations you do, if you don't you say here is endpoint for all restful operations 15:33:36 ... I think that would let people do both 15:33:48 aaronpk: harry I think I see what you're getting at 15:34:06 ... I do want to point out that there are different pieces of how to do things 15:34:13 ... Certain aspects of those that I am more and less willing to give up 15:34:19 as far a "social" data though, i know twitter has started to add microformats in to in user profile queries. apparently thats thanks to Known requesting it 15:34:21 harry: overview preferences? 15:34:24 aaronpk: i can try 15:34:39 ... in context of looking at something else like activitypump 15:34:50 Arnaud: is there something you'd rather choose to do differently? We should wait to see the rest 15:34:54 aaronpk: I'd like to see the others closer 15:34:58 ... comparable situations 15:35:12 ... Maybe one of them figured out something that's way less awkward with one of the concerns I was working with 15:35:18 ... What I did was constraint based 15:35:21 ack bblfish 15:35:26 sandro: static site constraint explains half the differences 15:35:34 ack aaronpk 15:35:34 aaronpk, you wanted to discuss the "all-or-nothing" re: micropub 15:35:45 Arnaud: plan to close in ten minutes 15:35:51 ... burning desire to say more anyone? 15:35:59 ... Agree on what we're going to do tomorrow 15:36:05 ... Plan is to start around the same time# 15:36:16 ... Gathering at 090-0 15:36:24 ... trying to start at 0930 15:36:26 I added a countdown for 5/4 9:30am (#5680) 15:36:26 I'll probably be able to get on about the same time I did today 15:36:44 No 15:36:48 Tsyesika will 15:36:50 ... Assume evan will take us through activitypump 15:36:57 Tsyesika: I will 15:36:57 Sorry, thought that was clear 15:37:02 Arnaud: up to you who starts 15:37:05 happy to contribute though! 15:37:07 ... LDP or ActivityPump 15:37:12 I would prefer if LDP went first 15:37:16 ... Idea is to go through two others, then time for demos 15:37:33 ... Try to dive into every proposal, step back and try to compare them based on better understandings of appraoches 15:37:41 ... Hopefully we don't kill each other, and have enlightenment 15:37:51 ... Ideally we will have a sense of where we might go next at the end of the meeting 15:37:58 but of course those presenting's preferences are higher :) 15:38:12 sandro: aaronpk, groups in micropub? 15:38:19 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Inbox 15:38:27 Jake sees in his social stream a video from Damon. Damon and Jake are both in the "Boxing Fans" group. Damon posted the video to the group. 15:38:40 aaronpk: I do have answer 15:38:47 q+ 15:38:48 ... Using aggregators as groups, I can make an example 15:39:11 bblfish: If we look at differences between different groups, it's because people have different constraints 15:39:17 ... that's what guides a certain way of answering a problem 15:39:20 ... THese constraints are real 15:39:26 ... That's why shims are useful 15:39:33 nothing stops a person from having multiple feeds, one for "boxing" that other boxing fans could follow 15:39:42 ... Machine readable forms is interesting 15:39:59 ... Translation between documents to machien readable data could work. Could be anote 15:40:02 Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83991&oldid=83982 15:40:03 ben_thatmustbeme, I don't think that's what that story is saying 15:40:03 Hhalpin made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17-minutes]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83992&oldid=0 15:40:41 AnnB: Much of this work is imporant for workflow management for us, expertise location, answering questions, sharing information, network and so on 15:40:56 ... It has the attributes that are discussed here, but has a different quality to it than facebook and public tools 15:41:03 ... One day we will do things outside the firewall with this 15:41:09 sandro, i don't think so, but we haven't really tackled groups at all yet, other than tagging multiple people in a "group". Its difficult to get anywhere without some single owner to a group who is in charge of the feed 15:41:12 ... Also because we're so big, being interoperable is mandatory 15:41:23 ... Not good enough to have a shim 15:41:24 sandro, more of thinking out loud of possibilities 15:41:24 ben_thatmustbeme: that's what I was getting at with aggregators 15:41:27 ... Too big a domain 15:41:46 like how a bunch of us are in the "indienews" group if we subscribe to http://news.indiewebcamp.com/ 15:41:47 sandro: we should try to design this all without shims 15:41:58 AnnB: try to avoid, it's a patch 15:42:01 ack melvster1_ 15:42:08 aaronpk, maybe just aggregator from set list of people "joined" to the group, looking for anything in a certain category 15:42:11 melvster: my understanding of json-ld is that it's design to be extensible 15:42:18 ... where is it not seen to be extensible? 15:42:27 sandro: json-ld is, it's when it's just json 15:42:31 audio is in and out for me, so I have to go my chat logs to fill in the spaces 15:42:35 melvster: is that what the group is doing? 15:42:35 ben_thatmustbeme: there are a number of ways to do it, feel like taking a stab at writing up a version of how to do it like I did for the other stories? 15:42:42 s/:/,/ 15:42:46 Arnaud: this is always a weak spot. This is a selling point for json-ld 15:43:01 sandro: we need some warning that says if you ignore the LD part this is the trouble you'll have 15:43:18 bblfish: peopel have been arguing about this for a while 15:43:35 harry: arguement is that most evidence says most json develoeprs will drop the context and don't know/care about json-ld 15:43:45 s/we will do things outside the firewall with this/I anticipate we will use these technologies with our supply chain (outside firewall) / 15:43:59 if the context is implicit, and you have *enough* stuff defined, most users don't need to look at it, until they hit extensibility 15:44:07 hm 15:44:13 sandro: if you have a different @context you might not even check if you're used to a standard 15:44:26 sandro: that is a good point though 15:44:49 harry: how stable are microformats terms? 15:44:57 aaronpk: pretty stable like h-entry and h-card because based on previous work 15:44:58 hhalpin https://github.com/rhiaro/mf2rdf 15:45:02 though I think we talked about you not being override the stuff set up in the context though in new contexts though right? 15:45:09 sandro: cool idea: IF YOU CHANGE THE @context TO SOMETHING THAT'S NOT JUST AN EXTENSION, YOU MUST USE A DIFFERENT MEDIA TYPE. 15:45:10 ... we're adding new properties like u-like-of 15:45:43 harry: if we are really worried about context being lost it might be useful to walk through that 15:45:57 ... where does activity vocabulary replicate existing mf work 15:46:02 issue-15 15:46:02 issue-15 -- AS2.0 Vocabulary in many ways duplicates microformats.org and schema.org efforts -- closed 15:46:02 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/15 15:46:03 aaronpk: do we already have this doc? 15:46:20 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Activity_Streams/Microformats_Mapping 15:46:32 aaronpk: that needs some work 15:46:37 harry: microformats people should look at that 15:47:06 ... see if we can make them converge 15:47:12 I'm lost 15:47:22 ... james just made vocabulary to map to usecases 15:47:32 ... only microformats community can really help with going into this in detail 15:47:40 is thiat about mappings again? 15:47:43 What are we talking about? 15:47:48 ... so then you move stable microformats into core 15:47:50 or about having microformats having contexts 15:47:50 q? 15:47:53 or something 15:48:02 or we can close on this :) 15:48:07 Arnaud: we can close, feel free to keep discussing 15:48:17 hard to converge with something that (nearly) no one's publicly implementing in practice 15:48:27 I'll be participating in dinner remotely! 15:48:28 jk 15:48:34 also - not necessarily good to converge something practical with something more theoretical 15:48:42 rhiaro_++ 15:48:42 thank you amy 15:48:43 ... Reusme tomorrow at 0900 15:48:45 rhiaro_ has 72 karma 15:48:45 Thanks for scribing 15:48:46 I added a countdown for 5/4 9:00am (#5681) 15:48:47 rhiaro++ 15:48:50 rhiaro has 73 karma 15:48:51 Thanks for everything everyone 15:48:53 rhiaro: great job on scribing 15:48:58 and yes good work everyone 15:48:58 methinks those countdowns are going to be in PDT 15:49:12 rrsagent, make minutes 15:49:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html wseltzer 15:49:29 trackbot, end meeting 15:49:29 Zakim, list attendees 15:49:29 As of this point the attendees have been INRIA, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber2, eprodrom 15:49:37 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 15:49:37 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-minutes.html trackbot 15:49:38 -eprodrom 15:49:38 RRSAgent, bye 15:49:38 I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-actions.rdf : 15:49:38 ACTION: pelf to draw Follow vs. Subscribe with account having multiple feeds allowing subscription independently [1] 15:49:38 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/05/04-social-irc#T14-16-35