13:56:54 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:56:54 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-irc 13:56:56 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:56:56 Zakim has joined #tt 13:56:58 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:56:59 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes 13:56:59 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:57:00 Date: 30 April 2015 13:59:21 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 13:59:27 +[Apple] 13:59:29 courtney has joined #tt 14:01:32 +nigel 14:01:39 atai has joined #tt 14:01:59 +Andreas 14:02:10 Present: nigel, Andreas, courtney 14:02:40 zakim, [Apple] is courtney 14:02:40 +courtney; got it 14:02:46 chair: nigel 14:02:48 scribe: nigel 14:03:19 pal has joined #tt 14:03:23 +pal 14:03:28 Present+ pal 14:03:35 Regrets: dsinger 14:04:18 plh has joined #tt 14:04:25 +Plh 14:04:37 Present+ plh 14:04:55 Topic: This meeting 14:04:58 nigel: AOB? 14:05:01 group: no AOB 14:06:27 Topic: Action items 14:06:51 action-390? 14:06:51 action-390 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the multirowalign and linepadding ttml files to have shorter lines of text -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:06:51 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/390 14:06:57 action-391? 14:06:57 action-391 -- Nigel Megitt to Update the multirowalign and linepadding pngs to match the ttml -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:06:57 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/391 14:07:17 nigel: I was hoping that Andreas could review these before I close them. 14:07:44 Andreas: I had some problems with Mercurial but this is on the top of my list to review. I'll come back next week with these. 14:08:42 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Tests 14:08:55 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/linePadding1.ttml 14:09:11 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/file/bb46ee1c9c18/ttml-ww-profiles/testsuite/linePadding/ 14:09:28 nigel: You can browse directly using the repository - see above links. 14:10:06 ... I should possibly remove the .png files that aren't 16x9 or 4x3 because they're wrong and not referenced anywhere. 14:10:32 action-392? 14:10:32 action-392 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Tweak the examples with multiple regions so that they appear in a more intuitive order. -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:10:32 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/392 14:10:56 nigel: Pierre, you've adjusted the multiple region examples? 14:10:57 pal: Yes. 14:11:12 close action-392 14:11:12 Closed action-392. 14:11:16 action-393? 14:11:16 action-393 -- Nigel Megitt to Send pal details of implementation and tests passed so he can create a table in the implementation report -- due 2015-04-17 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:11:16 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/393 14:11:48 nigel: We discussed this last week and plh uploaded the videos. I think that's all done now. 14:12:01 http://media.w3.org/2015/04/ 14:12:29 nigel: https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report#Results 14:12:49 nigel: The two BBC prototype tests are now on the above results page. 14:13:28 close action-393 14:13:28 Closed action-393. 14:13:41 action-400? 14:13:41 action-400 -- Nigel Megitt to Send smpte dispositions from action-378 to smpte (mdolan) -- due 2015-04-30 -- PENDINGREVIEW 14:13:41 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/400 14:15:05 nigel: I sent Mike our dispositions on the SMPTE email on Monday. Just for info, when David Singer 14:15:33 ... reviewed the draft he noticed that the TTML2 features may be subject to further change when we 14:15:51 ... go to wide review, so we added an extra sentence in the introduction to highlight that point. 14:15:58 ... Obviously Mike already knows it anyway. 14:16:05 close action-400 14:16:06 Closed action-400. 14:16:50 nigel: There are lots of open actions remaining - does anyone want to call out any specifically that may 14:16:58 ... have had some work but not been updated on the tracker? 14:17:00 action-389 14:17:00 action-389 -- Andreas Tai to Check with ebu group if we can have a combined event at ibc with ebu group and imsc/w3c -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:17:00 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/389 14:17:30 andreas: We are having internal discussions on if we can have joint presentations at IBC for IMSC and EBU-TT-D. 14:17:33 action-398? 14:17:33 action-398 -- Andreas Tai to Contact erik lindstrom re htmlcue -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:17:33 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/398 14:18:15 andreas: I wrote to Erik re the generic HTMLCue idea and he responded today that there has been 14:18:32 ... some ongoing work with Glenn and it was considered for use in blink. The idea was to transform 14:18:54 ... TTML documents to ISDs and then generate HTML code from them. That was the basic idea. Maybe 14:19:06 ... the document itself shouldn't be proposed directly to the group but could be the basis for a proposal. 14:19:20 ... The next thing is to check if Opera or Erik is able to work with someone else in the group on that 14:19:34 ... proposal. I understand this is something we can discuss with the HTML WG at the next TPAC meeting. 14:19:53 ... Possibly this group should scope more what our requirements should be for this internal cue concept. 14:20:30 close action-398 14:20:30 Closed action-398. 14:21:05 Andreas: The idea was that we make some kind of proposal for the HTML WG. I think we decided we 14:21:28 ... want to go ahead with this. Is that right? 14:21:38 pal: Yes, I think there was broad consensus that it would be a good idea. 14:21:59 andreas: I think so; I can imagine that Erik or Opera would be willing to participate in this if there are 14:22:18 ... other collaborators, and to use their input as a base. I'm certainly interested but have not enough 14:22:24 ... knowledge at the moment to volunteer. 14:22:59 pal: This has been a long running project. As I recall, Glenn had put a lot of effort into trying to get this 14:23:14 ... done and the obstacles were not technical. So do you feel that those obstacles have been overcome 14:23:32 ... and this is mainly technical work? I'm just trying to understand the status. I'd love to be able to help. 14:23:51 andreas: Mostly my information is based on what Glenn said. I think the main obstacle is time on Glenn's 14:24:35 ... side, that was my interpretation. This hasn't yet been proposed to HTML WG but was a ticket raised 14:24:44 ... on Chromium, but it didn't get positive feedback. 14:25:02 pal: So the current strategy is to write an HTML extension and submit it to the HTML WG. I'm happy to help. 14:25:11 ... Is there a draft? Do we have a beginning? 14:25:30 andreas: I'm not sure. He brought Opera's proposal in as a good start. Possibly we can say that pal and I 14:25:45 ... are willing to help and if we can work with Erik then we can plan on how to push this forward. 14:26:44 pal: Maybe we can take this on with just the 4 of us and see where we go. 14:27:10 nigel: Great, we need to turn this into actions. Philippe, what's the normal way to publish HTML extensions? 14:27:18 ... Do we have to do it as a Recommendation, or is a Note okay? 14:27:57 plh: There's no standard way to do it. It could be published by HTML WG under the Media Task Force 14:28:58 ... or here - if you want it to be a Recommendation from this group then you need to update the charter 14:29:20 ... and send it to AC for review. It's normal for HTML extensions to be Rec track documents. 14:29:39 ... This reminds me that the Media Task Force met 2 weeks ago and discussed transcripts. There is 14:29:45 ... interest there to do further work on transcripts. 14:30:39 plh: Figure out where the best place is to work on it, in HTML WG or here, and then adjust the 14:30:54 ... charters as needed. Adding a deliverable to a charter isn't too difficult to do. 14:31:44 nigel: It seems to me that we need two pieces of work: one to define the generic HTMLCue structure 14:31:56 ... and the other to define the mapping from TTML/ISD to HTMLCue. 14:32:57 Andreas: Do you think the HTML WG would define the HTMLCue and and we would define the mapping? 14:33:14 nigel: Yes, that's what I was thinking. Even if we write the HTMLCue spec and give it to HTML WG as an 14:33:21 ... extension that would be fine. 14:33:37 pal: I tend to agree with nigel that for both implementation and correctness the HTML WG should publish 14:33:41 ... the generic HTMLCue part. 14:34:14 plh: The best thing is to pitch it to the Media Task force and the HTML Accessibility Task Force. They 14:34:31 ... both work on media related issues. Once you guys have a proposal I'm happy to help. 14:35:49 Frans has joined #tt 14:36:05 nigel: I'd like to make an 'in principle' proposal first before we put in loads of effort that would be 14:36:08 ... rejected. 14:36:23 plh: Certainly as much detail on use cases and proposed approaches for solving them would be useful. 14:36:30 +Frans 14:38:04 Action: atai2 Kick off discussions with Erik, Glenn, Nigel, Pierre on HTMLCue 14:38:05 Created ACTION-401 - Kick off discussions with erik, glenn, nigel, pierre on htmlcue [on Andreas Tai - due 2015-05-07]. 14:39:31 Action-394? 14:39:31 Action-394 -- Courtney Kennedy to Determine who is responsible for putting together the dispositions of comments document and get a schedule from them. -- due 2015-04-17 -- OPEN 14:39:31 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/394 14:40:01 Courtney: I talked to dsinger - clearly this is under way and he's actively running it. I didn't get a schedule from him. 14:40:30 ... I'm happy with the progress report so far. He sent a spreadsheet - he's going to update it and maybe 14:40:48 ... make it into a web page. Other than that everyone's aware - it's all been on the public list. 14:41:01 close action-394 14:41:01 Closed action-394. 14:41:41 Topic: Issues 14:41:44 issue-382? 14:41:44 issue-382 -- Require a computed non-indefinite begin time -- open 14:41:44 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/382 14:42:10 pal: There's been a lot of offline discussions on this issue. To summarise: there's a difference in opinion 14:42:26 ... on exactly how the Root Temporal Extent works and what it means and the interaction between 14:42:44 ... TTML1 and SMIL. So the very premise is still murky; therefore it's been difficult to make progress. 14:43:02 ... My thinking on this is that I don't think IMSC 1 can do much to resolve ambiguities in SMIL and TTML1. 14:43:14 ... If they are there they should be resolved at some point. The best IMSC 1 can do today with the 14:43:30 ... least impact is to recommend that begin and end are used on div or p. That does not resolve the 14:43:45 ... existing ambiguity but unambiguously captures when elements are active within an IMSC 1 document. 14:44:05 ... That would not be a SHALL but rather a SHOULD. In the majority of TTML documents I've seen so far 14:44:22 ... begin and end are used on p or div. We can continue to try to dig, and maybe reach a resolution. 14:44:36 ... The other is to add a recommendation in IMSC 1 to specify begin and end on ps and divs. EBU-TT-D 14:45:11 ... actually requires begin and end on p or span. Or the third option is to do nothing. 14:45:34 ... I'm not optimistic that we can resolve the ambiguity. 14:46:10 andreas: I agree with pal on this. I thought we might conclude to recommend the use of timing 14:46:19 ... explicitly in the document. So I think that was the second option. 14:46:33 pal: Yes, actually we had discussed a SHALL. I'm not sure that's appropriate because it sounds like 14:46:48 ... there are applications where it's correct to omit begin and end times even though the vast majority 14:46:54 ... of cases include them. 14:47:19 andreas: In the discussions I've had with people not involved in the specification process they like as 14:47:39 ... many SHALLs as possible. If we know there are some problems and there are no clear use cases 14:47:51 ... not to specify begin and end I can still see reasons to specify a SHALL not a SHOULD. 14:50:04 nigel: The use case comes from me actually in thinking about live cases. For distribution use cases I 14:50:18 ... agree that begin and end times should or even shall be present, but the scope of IMSC is not 14:50:38 ... completely restricted to distribution. I would accept a compromise that qualifies the requirement 14:51:00 ... with it only applying when distributing the documents in a wrapper format. 14:51:21 pal: I am not sure that the times must always be present so that's why I'm proposing a SHOULD. 14:51:45 andreas: It's always a specification issue whether you know there's a use case or you don't know that 14:51:57 ... there isn't a use case. I'd be happy to go with a should if that's what you think. 14:52:33 pal: If we're happy with this then I'd add a simple line under #timing to say begin and end should be 14:52:46 ... present on at least one of div, p and span. 14:53:10 nigel: That works for me. You do need to allow for the possibility of timing on span. 14:53:34 nigel: Are you also planning to add a note on the potential ambiguity? 14:54:05 pal: The best I could write is maybe: "if begin remains indefinite then the begin corresponds to the begin 14:54:19 ... of the root temporal extent"... but that's where the disagreement is so I'm not sure what to write. 14:55:44 nigel: As far as I know this issue has been raised only by Pierre. If we just make this change then 14:56:11 ... maybe if there's an implementation problem we can deal with that as a specific problem to solve. 14:56:22 nigel: That sounds like a resolution to this issue. 14:57:14 pal: When I've done that then that will allow me to move ahead with the CR2 and the list of changes. 14:57:28 plh: I'll help you with that. Are there any substantial changes? 14:57:41 nigel: Yes, we reviewed them in the F2F and minuted them. 14:58:03 plh: If you make substantive changes you have to go to LC. 14:58:24 nigel: That's not what we understood - there is no LC in the new process. 14:58:46 plh: Ah my mistake you're on the 2014 process. We will have to ask for Director permission to go to CR 14:58:47 ... again. 15:00:37 Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report 15:00:57 nigel: My BBC colleagues spotted that the example video on the frameSync test has an edit list that 15:01:11 ... moves the frames on by 2, which makes their gstreamer implementation fail. 15:02:07 regrest for next week 15:02:07 -Frans 15:02:09 -courtney 15:02:09 -Andreas 15:02:09 (AC) 15:02:11 -pal 15:02:15 -Plh 15:02:18 pal: I've sent you the source for that video - maybe your colleagues could see if they can create an 15:02:28 -nigel 15:02:28 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 15:02:28 Attendees were nigel, Andreas, courtney, pal, Plh, Frans 15:02:38 pal: alternative version of the video without the edit list. 15:02:44 nigel: Okay I'll see what we can do. 15:02:50 Topic: WebVTT review feedback 15:03:01 Courtney: There's nothing more to report on this. 15:03:09 Topic: TTML2 Editorial Actions 15:03:22 nigel: We're out of time for this meeting but if you'd like to volunteer for any editorial actions please 15:03:29 ... email me. 15:03:36 nigel: Thanks everyone! [adjourns meeting] 15:03:45 rrsagent, make logs public 15:03:50 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:03:50 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:08:12 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:08:12 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:10:02 s/... done and the/pal: done and the 15:10:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:10:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:13:26 plh: regrets for next week (AC) 15:13:36 s/regrest for next week/ 15:14:08 s/(AC)/ 15:14:09 s/(AC)/ 15:14:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:14:26 s/on this/on this right now 15:14:27 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:14:27 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:16:40 s/week/week (AC) 15:16:41 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:16:41 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:17:17 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:17:19 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:17:19 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/30-tt-minutes.html nigel 16:15:25 Zakim has left #tt