14:27:43 RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag 14:27:43 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-wai-wcag-irc 14:27:45 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:27:47 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:27:47 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 33 minutes 14:27:48 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:27:48 Date: 28 April 2015 14:27:50 Makoto has joined #wai-wcag 14:28:07 zakim, agenda? 14:28:07 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:28:08 1. Extension model - what do we want to express with extensions? What kind of guidance to do want to give? [from Kenny] 14:28:08 2. Group and and prioritise items from the post-WCAG wiki https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2 [from Kenny] 14:28:08 3. Review the current WCAG 2.0 requirements doc http://www.w3.org/TR/wcag2-req/ [from Kenny] 14:28:47 zakim, clear agenda 14:28:47 agenda cleared 14:29:13 agenda+ Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89 14:29:34 agenda+ Open GitHub Issues 14:30:08 Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ 14:30:30 s/ Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ // 14:30:40 agenda+ Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ 14:30:51 zakim, agenda? 14:30:51 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:30:52 1. Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89 [from Kenny] 14:30:52 2. Open GitHub Issues [from Kenny] 14:30:52 3. Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ [from Kenny] 14:34:52 Joshue108 has joined #wai-wcag 14:36:37 zakim, agenda? 14:36:37 I see 3 items remaining on the agenda: 14:36:38 1. Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89 [from Kenny] 14:36:38 2. Open GitHub Issues [from Kenny] 14:36:38 3. Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ [from Kenny] 14:36:57 trackbot, start meeting 14:36:59 RRSAgent, make logs public 14:37:01 Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG 14:37:01 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 23 minutes 14:37:02 Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 14:37:02 Date: 28 April 2015 14:37:10 Chair: AWK 14:52:03 agenda+ Quickref update 5mns 14:55:36 WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started 14:55:40 adam_solomon has joined #wai-wcag 14:55:43 +[IPcaller] 14:55:44 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue 14:55:45 +Joshue; got it 14:55:56 zakim, agenda? 14:55:56 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 14:55:57 1. Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89 [from Kenny] 14:55:57 2. Open GitHub Issues [from Kenny] 14:55:57 3. Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ [from Kenny] 14:55:58 4. Quickref update 5mns [from yatil] 14:57:26 AWK has joined #wai-wcag 14:58:10 +[IPcaller] 14:58:38 zakim, [IPcaller] is Makoto 14:58:38 +Makoto; got it 14:58:45 zakim, call EricE-Skype 14:58:45 ok, yatil; the call is being made 14:58:47 +EricE 14:59:23 +Andrew_Kirkpatrick 14:59:40 + +1.313.390.aaaa 14:59:57 Mike_Elledge has joined #wai-wcag 15:00:02 zakim, aaaa is Mike_Elledge 15:00:02 +Mike_Elledge; got it 15:00:13 zakim, mute me 15:00:13 Joshue should now be muted 15:00:32 zakim, agenda? 15:00:32 I see 4 items remaining on the agenda: 15:00:33 1. Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89 [from Kenny] 15:00:33 2. Open GitHub Issues [from Kenny] 15:00:33 3. Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ [from Kenny] 15:00:34 4. Quickref update 5mns [from yatil] 15:01:01 +Kenny 15:01:03 Zakim, agenda order is 4, 1, 2, 3 15:01:03 ok, yatil 15:01:11 zakim, nick yatil is EricE 15:01:11 ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE 15:01:13 zakim, mute me 15:01:14 EricE should now be muted 15:01:16 ack me 15:01:45 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:01:45 On the phone I see Joshue, Makoto, EricE (muted), Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Mike_Elledge, Kenny 15:02:20 ack me 15:02:41 cstrobbe has joined #wai-wcag 15:02:50 + +1.650.253.aabb 15:03:37 marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag 15:03:54 zakim, aabb Louis Chan 15:03:55 I don't understand 'aabb Louis Chan', Joshue108 15:03:56 +Marc_Johlic 15:03:59 zakim, aabb is Louis Chan 15:04:00 I don't understand 'aabb is Louis Chan', Joshue108 15:04:09 zakim, aabb is Louis_Chan 15:04:10 +Louis_Chan; got it 15:04:18 +cstrobbe 15:04:42 http://irc.w3.org 15:04:47 Loretta has joined #wai-wcag 15:04:47 +Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:04:53 #wai-wcag 15:05:03 zakim, mute me 15:05:03 Joshue should now be muted 15:05:17 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:05:17 On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Makoto, EricE, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Mike_Elledge, Kenny (muted), Louis_Chan, Marc_Johlic, cstrobbe, Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:05:21 +[IPcaller] 15:05:24 Louis has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:25 Ryladog has joined #wai-wcag 15:05:32 zakim, IPcaller is Loretta 15:05:32 +Loretta; got it 15:06:00 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Scribe_List 15:06:22 zakim, Louis is Louis_Cheng 15:06:22 +Louis_Cheng; got it 15:06:52 zakim, mute me 15:06:53 cstrobbe should now be muted 15:06:55 +[IPcaller] 15:06:57 zakim, [IPcaller] is adam_solomon 15:06:57 +adam_solomon; got it 15:07:05 zakim, pick a victim 15:07:05 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Mike_Elledge 15:07:06 Zakim, pick a scribe 15:07:08 Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose Katie_Haritos-Shea 15:07:57 zakim, who is making noise? 15:07:58 zakim, who is makin noise 15:07:58 I don't understand 'who is makin noise', yatil 15:08:02 zakim, who is making noise 15:08:02 I don't understand 'who is making noise', yatil 15:08:07 Joshue108, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Andrew_Kirkpatrick (35%), Louis_Cheng (35%), Marc_Johlic (15%), Katie_Haritos-Shea (3%) 15:08:16 ack me 15:08:23 zakim, mute me 15:08:23 Joshue should now be muted 15:08:28 I've muted 15:08:42 Scribe: Katie Haritos-Shea 15:08:48 zakim, mute Louis_Cheng 15:08:48 Louis_Cheng should now be muted 15:08:52 ScribeNick: Ryladog 15:09:00 Meeting: WCAG Working Group Teleconference 15:09:05 Zakim, take up next item 15:09:06 agendum 4. "Quickref update 5mns" taken up [from yatil] 15:09:06 Chair: Andrew Kirkpatrick 15:09:53 AWK: A person from Google has joined 15:09:57 Zakim, unmute Louis_Cheng 15:09:57 Louis_Cheng should no longer be muted 15:10:29 LC: Louis Cheng from the Google Accessibility Team 15:10:32 Daniel_Frank has joined #wai-wcag 15:10:46 AWK: Thank you. Welcome 15:10:51 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:10:51 On the phone I see Joshue (muted), Makoto, EricE, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Mike_Elledge, Kenny (muted), Louis_Cheng, Marc_Johlic, cstrobbe (muted), Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, 15:10:55 ... adam_solomon 15:11:22 zakim, mute Louis_Cheng 15:11:22 Louis_Cheng should now be muted 15:11:24 + +1.650.464.aacc 15:11:34 ack me 15:11:36 aacc is Daniel_Frank 15:11:43 TOPIC: QuickRef 15:11:57 ack me 15:12:12 Zakim, unmute Eric 15:12:12 EricE was not muted, AWK 15:12:25 rrsagent, make minutes 15:12:25 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-wai-wcag-minutes.html Ryladog 15:12:27 +David_MacDonald 15:12:34 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-gl/2015AprJun/0092.html 15:12:53 EE: I sent a few hours ago and update to the QuickRef. We did additional work in EO 15:13:08 David has joined #wai-wcag 15:13:15 EE: I just wanted to give you a headsup to look at it and bring us your feedback 15:13:43 EE: Look at the email here - please comment and participate 15:14:05 EE: We will do user testing at the AccessU conference in two weeks 15:14:35 EE: Send in comments using the GitHubn issue or send email to the WAI editors 15:14:54 EE: The design and functionality will change 15:15:14 EE: I iwll try to update as prompty as possible 15:15:48 AWK: You want us to do GitHub issue? 15:15:52 wai-eo-editors@w3.org 15:16:01 EE: Yes o email to the WAI Editors group 15:16:22 Zakim, take up next item 15:16:22 agendum 1. "Discussion of issues presented by Makoto: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/89" taken up [from Kenny] 15:16:35 zakim, mute me 15:16:35 EricE should now be muted 15:16:42 AWK: We have some issue that were presented by Makoto 15:16:52 TOPIC: Issue # 89 15:17:28 AWK: ultimately we are going to need someone to take on a coherent response 15:17:50 -Joshue 15:18:09 +Cooper 15:18:11 zakim, aacc is Daniel_Frank 15:18:11 +Daniel_Frank; got it 15:18:21 AWK: Social Plugins - issue of High Contrrast mode. Which is actually an open issue on it s own 15:18:31 AWK: For iframe for title 15:19:02 AWK: Central Plugins - what do you tell developers in Japan if they are using these plugin such as Like This 15:19:34 AWK: If you want to like something on FB do you have to use there button to do it. 15:19:35 -Louis_Cheng 15:20:08 DM: Most of the time I have just told the deveelopers to go into the widget and fix it. If it is inside an iframe sometimes that is a problem 15:20:15 +[IPcaller] 15:20:26 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue108 15:20:26 +Joshue108; got it 15:20:34 zakim, mute me 15:20:34 Joshue108 should now be muted 15:20:42 AWK: Users may not have control becasue of the way it is put in. It seems like devldopers should have options 15:21:17 ! 15:21:36 A boring farting saw? 15:21:39 + +1.650.253.aadd 15:22:21 AWK: My gut is that I am concerned about having in any set of rules - if what hey give you is not accessible 15:22:35 q? 15:22:38 q+ 15:22:44 ack me 15:22:49 AWK: If you are a developer using FB or PayPal 15:22:55 You may have conflicts with branding requirements 15:23:00 -EricE 15:23:08 MC: Third party content is loadedd and you have no control over wwhat gets loaded 15:23:22 ack me 15:23:30 zakim, who is on the phone? 15:23:30 On the phone I see Makoto, Andrew_Kirkpatrick, Mike_Elledge, Kenny (muted), Marc_Johlic, cstrobbe (muted), Katie_Haritos-Shea, Loretta, adam_solomon, Daniel_Frank, David_MacDonald, 15:23:33 ... Cooper, Joshue108 (muted), +1.650.253.aadd 15:23:40 q+ 15:23:53 zakim, mute me 15:23:53 Joshue108 was already muted, Joshue108 15:24:01 MC: Gregg said that there is always a way around the rules. We vcant prevent them from doing so 15:24:01 zakim, unmute me 15:24:01 Joshue108 should no longer be muted 15:24:28 s/vcant/cant 15:24:36 ack lor 15:24:37 DM; It is senseible _ I do not think that we can allow -mif it is not meeting WGAC you cannot claim conformance 15:24:42 zakim, mute me 15:24:42 Joshue108 should now be muted 15:24:55 LGR: The sstatement of partial conformnce - is a ststement of NOT conforming 15:24:58 s/-mif/ - if 15:25:31 LGR: It is supposed to be asserting tht the content you have control over - you do what you caan but in some instance you have no control ove the content 15:25:55 LGR: The author i making a decision about what technilogies and what contnet to include 15:25:55 +q to ask if the definition of what third party content is, is the same internationally? 15:26:10 LGR: Partial conformance 15:26:16 Q+ 15:26:24 LGR: It may not conform to WCAG 15:26:29 ack adam 15:26:33 zakim, queue? 15:26:33 I see Joshue, David on the speaker queue 15:27:05 Adam: What is no control. Scripting you can almost control everything. It is usually third party widgets. 15:27:41 LGR: You still have control to use that script library 15:27:57 LGR: Somebody made that decision 15:28:42 Adam: what about a blog - myou should be able to determine the rendeiirng 15:28:51 s/rendeiirng/rendering 15:28:53 LGR: Would you provide alt text 15:29:03 Adam: tthe script could provide an alt 15:29:18 -Joshue108 15:29:22 LGR: In which case you might be able to claim full conformance 15:29:55 Adam: should we be more charitable to not have to use script to fix everything? 15:29:56 http://www.w3.org/TR/2008/REC-WCAG20-20081211/#conformance-partial 15:30:05 +[IPcaller] 15:30:18 -[IPcaller] 15:30:22 LGR: I think people use this to claim partial conformance 15:30:46 Adam: Regadrless, you have to give 100%? 15:30:51 LGR: Yes 15:30:52 +[IPcaller] 15:30:53 ack joshue 15:30:53 Joshue, you wanted to ask if the definition of what third party content is, is the same internationally? 15:31:01 zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue108 15:31:01 +Joshue108; got it 15:31:45 JO: The definition os thurd party contnet and does it vary across domains. Second, the definition of TPC are in flux and continue to be 15:31:46 From Defn: A "statement of partial conformance" may be made that the page does not conform, but could conform if certain parts were removed. "Fron Dfn 15:32:15 JO: Video Player - you have the responsibility to chose a n accessible video player - that is TPC 15:32:27 ack da 15:32:30 q? 15:32:31 q+ 15:32:50 s/os thurd/of third 15:33:05 DM: I agreeee with Loretta. It all came up becasue of AOL and Don lobbied that hsd some sort of a ststement 15:33:08 s/and does it/does it 15:33:20 s/domains./domains? 15:33:24 DM: If you remove this part that it would be acceptable 15:33:38 q+ to say that developers can't fix everything. Easy if there is a button, much harder if there is a map or complex UI. 15:33:46 ack r 15:33:48 ack ryla 15:33:59 Katie: point about govs is that they are using this 15:34:09 KHS: You need to be careful about the tech you are using 15:34:10 ... devs are responsible for technologies used 15:34:22 ack me 15:34:22 AWK, you wanted to say that developers can't fix everything. Easy if there is a button, much harder if there is a map or complex UI. 15:34:44 zakim, mute me 15:34:44 Joshue108 should now be muted 15:35:10 AWK: I agree but there is also - yes you should have an accessible Like button, an accessible video player - sometimes it is very difficlut 15:35:42 AWK: If there is a map I want to add and reference _ iam not going to fix it, that is where I would start talking about partial conformance 15:36:27 AWK: Updated without notice 15:36:59 AWK: If you use script to tfix it and they change the code.. 15:37:17 AWK: Makoto added a question 15:37:29 AWK: What do you need from the group? 15:38:37 Makoto: JIS has the same requirement for Partial Conformance Claim - but so many sites use these widgets - scoping out is not a good situation 15:39:13 Makoto: Widgets are very popular - II want the WG to clarify that these widgets apply to the TPC or not 15:39:29 AWK: It seesm that people say maybe 15:39:40 s/seesm/seems 15:39:41 +??P54 15:39:47 -Cooper 15:39:57 Makoto: Even if they can fix it - they dont want to modigy the code 15:40:08 makoto, can someone work with the providers of these plugins and code? 15:40:10 Makoto: I understand if you cant just fix the code 15:40:37 Makoto: They think they cant be responsible for the modification 15:40:43 AWK: Why ? 15:40:56 KHS: Its not there code? 15:41:05 s/not there/not their 15:41:28 q+ 15:41:34 Makoto: It is not there responsibility - maybe. If they modify the code 15:41:35 ack lot 15:41:40 ack lor 15:42:11 q? 15:42:13 ack me 15:42:15 q+ 15:42:24 LGR: I certainly understand they want to use the code as it is -but it will not be accessible to many people. I would like to think that they will put pressure on the pople to fix the code 15:42:34 ack me 15:43:28 AWK: I guess bwhat we can do - we can write up a response to this issue - and we can submit it that way - maybe there might be a change to the Understanding document remains to be seen 15:44:01 AWK: We can offer some clarification and empg=haisis that says - if you can modify the code it is gojing to count a s TPC 15:44:15 zakim, unmute me 15:44:15 Joshue108 should no longer be muted 15:44:23 AWK: Partila Conformance is a stsement of Non-coonformanece 15:44:28 ack jo 15:44:41 s/Partila /Partial 15:45:11 JO: One of the ways around TPC is to require a business case as a driver for accessibility best practices - not just accessibility 15:45:12 sNon-coonformanece/Non-conformance 15:45:32 zakim, mute me 15:45:32 Joshue108 should now be muted 15:45:32 JO: Mkae that a statement about your website 15:45:45 s/Mkae/Make 15:45:52 q? 15:46:03 AWK: Who wants to volunteer to take on Issue 89 15:46:12 DM: I can 15:46:21 AWK: Yu do too many of these 15:46:52 LGR: I will do it 15:47:17 ACTION: Loretta will take on a response for Issue #89 15:47:17 Created ACTION-308 - Will take on a response for issue #89 [on Loretta Guarino Reid - due 2015-05-05]. 15:47:47 AWK: Thannk you Loretta 15:48:24 s/Thannk you/Thank you 15:48:25 AWK: Some one will add you Loretta with a gitHub account let us know 15:48:27 Issue 82: https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/82 15:48:36 (send in your git account) 15:48:48 Zakim, take up next item 15:48:48 agendum 3. "Survey for issue sorting: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/" taken up [from Kenny] 15:48:48 Zakim, take next item 15:48:50 I don't understand 'take next item', Ryladog 15:49:23 AWK: I had trouble getting to the wiki this weekebd 15:49:39 https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/35422/IssueSorting/ 15:49:44 I am forbidden for this URL? 15:50:03 https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/wiki/Post_WCAG_2_Issues_Sorted 15:50:19 I'm forbidden. :^( 15:50:48 AWK: Basically we have a bunch of Issue on the Post WCAG 2 Issue List which is the new wiki page that I just put in IRC 15:51:30 AWK: Whether this changes or extends WCAG 2 we will make determinations about 15:51:48 AWK: Row 14 is already filled out, please use that as an example 15:53:25 last column should be yes or no... according to the definition at top of page 15:53:27 AWK: Do we want to extend or update, put in proposed solution. LIke this onne move from double A to single A . Th is actually a change. Without the extensuion 15:54:01 zakim, mute me 15:54:02 Joshue108 was already muted, Joshue108 15:54:09 AWK: If it was moved to a AAA it would no longer meet WCAG on its own 15:54:35 AWK: I think we all agree but what we want to do - we actually need to get more data 15:54:58 KHS: It makes sense but the final column is asking for yes or no. 15:55:11 AWK: Yes it does. 15:55:45 AWK: Thanks David 15:55:59 DM: I like it. I think it is a good apraoch 15:56:00 +1 15:56:09 AWK: We need people to answet the survey 15:56:19 s/answet/answer 15:56:29 AWK: Go now and sign up for 5 rows 15:57:22 AWK: Then later on down the road, there is basically a blog post or an article where sommeone has made between 1 and 48,000 suggestion s to improve WCAG 15:57:42 AWK: I will modify this page when folks sign up for their rows 15:58:10 AWK: When you do one of those rows you will edit the wiki and add some rows based on the different issue 15:58:22 zakim, mute me 15:58:22 Joshue108 was already muted, Joshue108 15:58:40 AWK: If they have 30 diffenet things - you do not have to do all of them just akes the rows that we will solve a s goup 15:59:10 s/diffenet/different 15:59:28 q? 16:00:11 AWK: Just look at the article and look for actionable suggestions - add those to a new row and someone will come up with e response as to what we might ddo bout it 16:00:12 ack me 16:00:37 zakim, unmute me 16:00:37 Joshue108 should no longer be muted 16:01:32 AWK: Grab the actionable things and does it fit into an extension - what/how migh we be able to incorpoarte 16:01:49 AWK: We are focused now on what things might actually go into the Extensions 16:02:38 JO: Somethings might loook very detailed or technical - they might be more simple than that 16:02:58 AWK; As a working grou we need all memebrs to get involved 16:03:24 AWK: Both Josh and I will 16:03:29 q+ 16:03:36 ack mike 16:03:36 ack mik 16:04:05 ME: You are going to add a column - and we will put in our names for what we want to take a look at? 16:04:20 AWK; We ll I will be looking at the Survey first 16:04:33 AWK; It should be available now 16:04:51 DM: What if two people hve chosen the same row? 16:04:55 AWK: Talk to htme 16:05:14 s/htme/me 16:05:25 AWK: We have enough people - it would be good if at least two people signed up to get a broader view 16:05:54 AWK: It is OK if two people sign up for the same thing 16:05:59 zakim, take up next item 16:05:59 I do not see any more non-closed or non-skipped agenda items, AWK 16:06:06 q? 16:06:10 zakim, agenda? 16:06:10 I see nothing remaining on the agenda 16:06:34 ack me 16:06:45 Zakim, take up item 2 16:06:45 agendum 2. "Open GitHub Issues" taken up [from Kenny] 16:07:09 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/ 16:07:23 TOPIC: Item 2 - Issues List 16:07:39 AWK: These issues need some kind of review 16:07:42 83, 84, 86, 69 16:08:02 AWK: Issue #86 16:08:07 https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/86 16:08:16 AWK; This is Davids 16:08:54 AWL: #84 Mark you submitted the question about this 16:09:12 +James_Nurthen 16:09:19 MJ: I was looking for feedback on this topic 16:09:34 MJ: What are others seeing? 16:10:16 MJ: Are we going to need new techniques to cover these new CSS generated content issues 16:10:42 AWK: #83 16:11:01 jamesn has joined #wai-wcag 16:11:04 MJ: I will put them out and ask folks to give feedback on these two 16:11:09