13:56:57 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #w3process
13:56:57 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-irc
13:56:59 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
13:56:59 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #w3process
13:57:01 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be Process
13:57:01 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see AB_(PROCESS)10:00AM scheduled to start in 3 minutes
13:57:02 <trackbot> Meeting: Revising W3C Process Community Group Teleconference
13:57:02 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2015
13:58:18 <Zakim> AB_(PROCESS)10:00AM has now started
13:58:25 <Zakim> +SteveZ
13:58:48 <chaals> zakim, code?
13:58:48 <Zakim> the conference code is 7762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), chaals
13:59:29 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
13:59:43 <chaals> zakim, [i is me
13:59:43 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
14:00:48 <SteveZ> agenda; https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2015Apr/0131.html
14:01:17 <SteveZ> rrsagent, agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2015Apr/0131.html
14:01:17 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-w3process/2015Apr/0131.html', SteveZ.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
14:01:51 <SteveZ> s/agenda;/agenda:/
14:01:52 <Zakim> +??P4
14:02:10 <SteveZ> Chair: SteveZ
14:02:25 <jeff> jeff has joined #w3process
14:02:39 <Zakim> +Jeff
14:03:10 <timeless> Zakim, ??p4 is me
14:03:10 <Zakim> +timeless; got it
14:03:36 <SteveZ> rrsagent, make minutes
14:03:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html SteveZ
14:03:54 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:03:59 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:03:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:04:35 <timeless> scribe: timeless
14:04:40 <timeless> topic: review letter
14:04:49 <timeless> jeff: in the draft ac memo that SteveZ sent
14:05:03 <timeless> ... to a non public list
14:05:06 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
14:05:17 <timeless> ... no mention was made of a formal object
14:05:24 <timeless> s/object/objection/
14:05:43 <timeless> SteveZ: i was unclear whether a formal objection was formally delivered,
14:05:56 <timeless> Zakim, who is on the call?
14:05:56 <Zakim> On the phone I see SteveZ, chaals, timeless, Jeff, [Microsoft]
14:06:12 <timeless> Zakim, [m is Mike_Champion
14:06:12 <Zakim> +Mike_Champion; got it
14:06:31 <timeless> chaals: in all likelihood, there will be a formal objection when there is a formal review
14:06:50 <timeless> jeff: the question is whether there should be a reference to it in the letter starting the final review
14:07:00 <timeless> chaals: that seems like the logical thing to do
14:07:10 <timeless> mike: i think it's useful information to the voters
14:07:26 <timeless> SteveZ: i can point to the message that chaals sent indicating the objection
14:07:42 <timeless> jeff: we need to have the url to the document in the memo to the AC
14:07:55 <timeless> ... is the final one we're sending to the AC, the one we sent to the AB on the 24th of April?
14:08:08 <timeless> SteveZ: last time we created a Proposed Process Document (possibly Ralph did it?)
14:08:14 <timeless> ... it was located somewhere else
14:08:56 <timeless> jeff: last time we said the editor was chaals and the previous editor was IanJ
14:09:03 <timeless> ... do we leave it that way?
14:09:08 <timeless> chaals: i think we leave it that way
14:09:21 <timeless> ... the general convention is to give credit to people who in the past have been editing
14:09:46 <timeless> SteveZ: the document that went out for review was in /TR/ space
14:09:55 <timeless> chaals: if you want it in dated space, then you need a Staff member to do that
14:10:20 <timeless> SteveZ: someone also has to create the WBS (survey)
14:10:25 <glazou> glazou has joined #w3process
14:10:29 <glazou> sorry for being late
14:10:45 <timeless> ... last time the document had gone out for LC review, i didn't include that either, i can include it
14:10:52 <timeless> jeff: i need to know what i'm doing, and what you're doing
14:10:59 <timeless> ... i'm getting on a plane tomorrow morning
14:11:06 <timeless> SteveZ: it seems like koalie sends it out
14:11:25 <timeless> jeff: do we need to include the DoC pointer here?
14:11:30 <timeless> SteveZ: i don't know
14:11:38 <timeless> ... there wasn't one in the one that went out for 2014
14:11:54 <timeless> jeff: fair enough
14:12:08 <timeless> SteveZ: i'll update it w/ the two changes (ref to formal objection, + ref to LC review)
14:12:19 <timeless> ... i'll send it to the TF first, so someone w/ a comment can send it quickly
14:12:35 <timeless> ... creating a document in dated space, and sending an announcement are the things to do
14:12:41 <timeless> jeff: i can take care of the Team things
14:12:49 <timeless> ... you can tell me what you want to put in the actual memo
14:12:52 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:12:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:13:20 <timeless> SteveZ: the 2014 announcement had a pointer to the document, a statement about changes, a WBS, and a deadline
14:13:28 <timeless> ... we should decide on the deadline...
14:13:32 <timeless> ... 4 weeks, right?
14:13:42 <timeless> chaals: this is a formal AC review, it gets 4 weeks
14:13:59 <timeless> jeff: it would be worthwhile to state there will be an opportunity for questions/discussion at the AC meeting
14:14:24 <timeless> SteveZ: i can do those things, and send it to you (+TF)
14:14:34 <timeless> ... the only difference w/ what i sent to jeff,
14:14:50 <timeless> ... i included a summary of the changes -- from chaals 's document
14:14:57 <timeless> ... structural changes, major changes
14:15:03 <timeless> jeff: did we fix the Errata thing?
14:15:06 <timeless> SteveZ: yep
14:15:10 <timeless> jeff: which change is that?
14:15:17 <timeless> SteveZ: it's in chaals 's list
14:15:37 <timeless> ... under editorial changes, clarify language of 7.7.1 to encourage groups to be responsive
14:15:55 <timeless> jeff: didn't we also provide some mechanism so Errata didn't have to be on a separate page?
14:16:13 <timeless> SteveZ: chaals listed it in his changes as an editorial change
14:16:22 <timeless> jeff: i thought it was important
14:16:25 <timeless> timeless: +1
14:16:38 <timeless> jeff: it doesn't just clarify the language, it allows for a different approach
14:16:41 <timeless> SteveZ: i'll fix that too
14:18:05 <timeless> SteveZ: those are the major changes, i think that's all that we need to discuss on the document
14:18:27 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:18:27 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:18:56 <timeless> topic: Review Open Action Items
14:19:01 <timeless> SteveZ: i don't think there are any actions to review
14:19:06 <timeless> topic: Express thanks to all those that contributed to shaping Process 2015
14:19:12 <timeless> SteveZ: so
14:19:24 <SteveZ> TOPIC: 2.      Express thanks
14:19:36 <timeless> s/TOPIC: 2.      Express thanks//
14:19:47 <jeff> SteveZ+++
14:19:50 <jeff> Chaals+++
14:20:02 <jeff> Timeless+++
14:20:02 <timeless> SteveZ: i wanted to formally express my thanks for all of you who helped put the document together
14:20:08 <jeff> Mike+++
14:20:12 <timeless> ... and i know that Josh wasn't at the AB meeting
14:20:12 <jeff> Everyone else+++
14:20:17 <timeless> ... so i wanted to thank you as well
14:20:24 <timeless> ... for helping make this possible
14:21:06 <timeless> i|SteveZ: so|-> https://www.w3.org/2015/04/20-ab-minutes.html#item04 Thanks to Process TF for work on Process 2015|
14:21:14 <timeless> topic: CGs
14:21:30 <timeless> SteveZ: having CGs have a better documented role in creating Docs/Charters
14:21:45 <timeless> ... what kinds of guarantees/rights do CG members have?
14:21:54 <timeless> ... i think Mike said don't add any
14:22:06 <timeless> ... we don't necessarily need to fix that now, but i think we should raise that to the AC audience
14:22:20 <timeless> ... there was a separate discussion on the Process vs. the Guide
14:22:54 <timeless> ... to me, the Process is as short as possible for Rules/Rights -- who participates, how, how work gets done, what's guaranteed to them
14:22:59 <timeless> ... everything else can go in the Guide
14:23:08 <timeless> ... i think there was agreement on the ML that
14:23:14 <timeless> ... something like the Guide would be useful
14:23:29 <timeless> ... ArtB suggested transferring the Guide to github
14:23:33 <jeff> W3C's community's reaction to the discussion of the Guide --> http://w3cmemes.tumblr.com/image/117552201652
14:23:46 <timeless> ... i proposed a Wiki because i like the way Wikipedia works
14:23:46 <glazou> ,:-)
14:23:59 <timeless> ... I guess github works similarly, that you can get notification on changes to a section
14:24:10 <timeless> ... i'd be interested in whether people think it's practical/good
14:24:32 <timeless> mike: it's kind of a necessity that whatever this is called, that it isn't maintained by the Team
14:24:37 <timeless> ... it's a community effort
14:24:49 <timeless> ... how this is developed should be a template for how things develop at W3C
14:25:00 <timeless> ... it seems Github is the more powerful/futureproof way than Wiki
14:25:06 <timeless> ... as for where it's administered from
14:25:13 <timeless> ... if we're talking about a Template for the Future
14:25:24 <timeless> ... covering CGs and getting Reviews before it goes off for Approval
14:25:30 <timeless> ... more and more work is being done in Github
14:25:42 <timeless> ... people contribute Pull Requests (PRs) with their suggestions
14:25:56 <timeless> ... my hypothesis is that it will be more productive than doing things on MLs
14:26:03 <timeless> ... and appointing an Editor to come up w/ words
14:26:18 <timeless> ... i'd vote for... i don't care what CG is nominally administering it
14:26:30 <jeff> q+ to talk about leadership
14:26:33 <timeless> ... as long as it's crowd-sourced and the best ideas get traction
14:26:40 <timeless> SteveZ: there are some complications
14:26:56 <timeless> ... implementing some of these things requires the Systems Team and Communications provide some support
14:27:06 <timeless> ... there's a need for process for some resources to be provided
14:27:23 <timeless> mike: that's why i like the idea of non normative stuff being in the Process document
14:27:33 <timeless> ... i respect your opinion that the process document being minimal
14:27:45 <timeless> ... w/o some process for the Best Practices, it just becomes a collection of random thoughts
14:28:17 <timeless> ... it seems to me that keeping this in the Process makes sense, but i could be convinced otherwise
14:28:30 <timeless> jeff: i don't care where it lives, it makes sense to me that it be crowd-sourced
14:28:38 <timeless> ... we should think about who the leader should be for this effort
14:28:50 <timeless> ... i'd be happy if koalie could do it, i haven't asked her, but she could be busy
14:29:18 <timeless> SteveZ: it's partly a W3M question about how they'd manage it
14:29:32 <timeless> jeff: from Team, it'd go to the head of Comm, which is why I mentioned koalie
14:29:47 <timeless> ... if we don't have the bandwidth, then we should step aside and let someone else take it over
14:30:10 <timeless> SteveZ: i'm not proposing an idea, but perhaps things to talk about at the AC
14:30:16 <timeless> ... we have a panel session
14:30:36 <timeless> ... this is one of the pieces that came out of the recent after discussion
14:30:54 <timeless> ... another was fixing the appeals process (probably less controversial)
14:31:07 <timeless> ... then, the question about Member-Group participants
14:31:20 <timeless> ... -- a separate for ones that are Org vs. Individual
14:31:39 <timeless> ... allowing 4 individuals to participate freely is different than allowing for Orgs to participate freely
14:31:47 <timeless> ... then, voting...
14:32:03 <timeless> ... i was counting on Mike and Ramen to talk about CGs and Getting Started
14:32:08 <timeless> ... for chaals to talk about Voting
14:32:21 <timeless> jeff: Ramen has asked that he be replaced on the panel by cwilson
14:32:36 <timeless> SteveZ: mike, you're on top of the CG thing
14:32:56 <timeless> mike: to the extent that the Process document is a guide
14:33:14 <timeless> ... i'd like it to talk about CGs about how they can contribute their work for standardization
14:33:26 <timeless> ... along the lines of the Member contribution process
14:33:37 <timeless> ... i'll provide some proposals for that
14:33:59 <timeless> ... there's nothing that forbids CGs from sending a message to a WG to propose something for standardization by it
14:34:19 <timeless> ... putting a defined contribution mechanism would allow us to not reinvent it each time some CG wants to do it
14:34:35 <timeless> ... the Process document acknowledging the differences between CGs/WGs
14:34:48 <timeless> SteveZ: Wayne had one on the relationships between CGs and WGs
14:34:59 <timeless> ... i can represent it, and i know glazou had comments on it
14:35:08 <timeless> mike: is wayne on the panel?
14:35:16 <timeless> jeff: wayne did not want to be on the panel
14:35:27 <timeless> mike: i largely agree w/ wayne, so i can represent his view
14:35:43 <timeless> jeff: if there's anything w/ no strong advocate, we don't have to discuss it
14:35:54 <timeless> ... it's a panel discussion, it's supposed to encourage discussion w/ the audience
14:36:00 <glazou> q+
14:36:02 <timeless> ... we've seeded the discussion, Guide, Members, CGs
14:36:06 <timeless> ... i don't want to over-manage it
14:36:21 <timeless> ... it's supposed to be natural, if the AC wants to talk about something else, we'll do that
14:36:28 <timeless> ... these are potentially filler points
14:36:38 <timeless> SteveZ: sure, but at leas the ones on CGs would be useful to get out
14:36:53 <timeless> ... 1. to remind Members that they exist and to make them more useful
14:37:23 <timeless> SteveZ: so, we should put the CG items earlier
14:37:33 <timeless> jeff: the passion on the panel will drive things
14:37:47 <timeless> ... if no one on a panel is a spokesperson, you shouldn't be forced to speak for...
14:38:01 <timeless> SteveZ: some i believe in, i'm not trying to be devil's advocate for the sake of being devil's advocate
14:38:03 <timeless> jeff: ok
14:38:23 <timeless> SteveZ: we don't have cwilson, but the rest of us, is there anything else we need to discuss about the panel?
14:38:44 <timeless> i/talk about at the AC/Topic: Panel discussion at AC
14:38:51 <Zakim> -Mike_Champion
14:38:54 <timeless> q?
14:38:58 <timeless> q- jeff
14:39:01 <timeless> ack glazou
14:39:01 <glazou> ok
14:39:03 <glazou> I want to say that I still think CGs will eventually be a threat to WGs because of their simplicity of launch, simplicity of operations and more (including github) ; it will become increasingly difficult to prevent them from doing spec work. Not a problem from my POV, but this has to be known/ack’d before making any choice here.
14:39:32 <glazou> my choice is agility
14:39:37 <glazou> whatever is agile
14:39:46 <glazou> </>
14:39:53 <Zakim> -chaals
14:40:02 <timeless> SteveZ: i'll make the same comments in the discussion since i'm on the panel
14:40:10 <timeless> s/i'll/glazou, i'll/
14:40:14 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:40:14 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:40:45 <timeless> SteveZ: one note is the need to keep tracking multiple MLs
14:40:49 <timeless> .. and that isn't very productive
14:41:02 <timeless> ... maybe we just have to track one particular Github that has branches
14:41:06 <timeless> s/.. and/
14:41:07 <timeless> q+
14:41:52 <timeless> timeless: branches on Github won't save you from drowniing
14:42:04 <timeless> ... you'll end up getting lots of PRs for things you didn't care about
14:42:12 <timeless> ... you'll have to pray that people have conventions to save you
14:42:16 <timeless> s/niing/ning/
14:42:26 <timeless> SteveZ: "tell me all i want to know, not what happens"
14:42:29 <timeless> timeless: right
14:42:33 <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
14:42:38 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:42:38 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:42:41 <jeff> Thanks, all.
14:43:01 <timeless> SteveZ: and thanks once again timeless
14:43:11 <timeless> ... (see everyone else at the AC meeting)
14:43:19 <timeless> timeless: y/w, and good luck all
14:43:24 <glazou> sorry I joined late, was fixing an urgent crasher in some code to be released soon by a customer
14:43:27 <timeless> s/[ Adjourned ]//
14:43:32 <timeless> SteveZ: no meeting next week
14:43:38 <Zakim> -Jeff
14:43:39 <timeless> [ Adjourned ]
14:44:08 <glazou> glazou has left #w3process
14:44:08 <Zakim> -SteveZ
14:44:16 <timeless> s/that isn't very productive/... and that isn't very productive/
14:44:22 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:44:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:45:21 <timeless> s/topic: review letter/topic: Review letter announcing AC review of Process 2015/
14:45:24 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:45:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:46:10 <timeless> trackbot, end meeting
14:46:10 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
14:46:10 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been SteveZ, [IPcaller], chaals, Jeff, timeless, [Microsoft], Mike_Champion
14:46:18 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
14:46:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html trackbot
14:46:19 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
14:46:19 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
14:46:33 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #w3process
14:46:33 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-irc
14:46:38 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:46:44 <timeless> s/[IPcaller], //
14:46:50 <timeless> s/[Microsoft], //
14:47:27 <timeless> regrets: dsinger
14:47:30 <timeless> RRSAgent, make logs world
14:47:35 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:47:35 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:47:57 <timeless> present+ glazou
14:47:59 <timeless> RRSAgent, draft minutes
14:47:59 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:48:18 <timeless> RRSAgent, make minutes
14:48:18 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-w3process-minutes.html timeless
14:48:21 <timeless> RRSAgent, bye
14:48:21 <RRSAgent> I see no action items