17:01:50 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #social
17:01:50 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-social-irc
17:01:52 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
17:01:54 <eprodrom> elf-pavlik: thanks
17:01:54 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be SOCL
17:01:54 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now
17:01:55 <trackbot> Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference
17:01:55 <trackbot> Date: 28 April 2015
17:02:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> Zakim: aabb is me
17:02:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> Zakim, aabb is me
17:02:07 <Zakim> sorry, ben_thatmustbeme, I do not recognize a party named 'aabb'
17:02:13 <Zakim> +??P17
17:02:16 <tantek> zakim, ??p17 is me
17:02:16 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:02:17 <elf-pavlik> silly trackbot
17:02:18 <tantek> (I think)
17:02:25 <tantek> zakim, mute me
17:02:25 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
17:02:27 <ben_thatmustbeme> Zakim, aabb is me
17:02:27 <Zakim> +ben_thatmustbeme; got it
17:02:33 <ben_thatmustbeme> Zakim, mute me
17:02:33 <Zakim> ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted
17:02:36 <tantek> who is 408?
17:02:39 <Zakim> +cwebber2
17:02:41 <tantek> zakim, unmute me
17:02:41 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
17:02:46 <Zakim> +eprodrom
17:02:49 <cwebber2> morning
17:02:49 <KevinMarks> I'm 408
17:02:53 <ben_thatmustbeme> i could make it this time, no hospital visit
17:02:59 <aaronpk> Zakim, aaaa is KevinMarks
17:02:59 <Zakim> +KevinMarks; got it
17:03:07 <cwebber2> no hospital visits is usually good, ben_thatmustbeme !
17:03:09 <Zakim> +??P20
17:03:18 <tantek> zakim, KevinMarks is aaaa
17:03:19 <tantek> oops
17:03:19 <Zakim> +aaaa; got it
17:03:19 <jasnell> ann: just sent you a note, I'm free to chat this afternoon if you want to give me a call
17:03:33 <AnnB> got it; I responded .. sounds good
17:03:42 <cwebber2> socl indeed :)
17:03:51 <sandro> Zakim, what is the code?
17:03:51 <Zakim> the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), sandro
17:03:55 <elf-pavlik> Zakim, what conferences?
17:03:55 <Zakim> I see Team_(aria)17:00Z, T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM active
17:03:56 <Zakim> also scheduled at this time are IA_WEBPD()1:00PM, XML_ET-TF()11:00AM, WAI_PF(Text)1:00PM
17:04:26 <sandro> RRSAgent, pointer?
17:04:26 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-social-irc#T17-04-26
17:04:27 <Zakim> +??P24
17:04:37 <Tsyesika> Zakim, ??P24 is me
17:04:37 <Zakim> +Tsyesika; got it
17:04:42 <Tsyesika> Zakim, mute me
17:04:42 <Zakim> Tsyesika should now be muted
17:04:53 <eprodrom> Zakim, who is on the call?
17:04:53 <Zakim> On the phone I see Ann, aaaa, Sandro, Arnaud, jasnell, elf-pavlik (muted), ben_thatmustbeme (muted), aaronpk, tantek, cwebber2, eprodrom, rhiaro (muted), Tsyesika (muted)
17:04:58 <Zakim> +bblfish
17:05:03 <bblfish> hi
17:05:24 <AnnB>  scribe: AnnB
17:05:30 <eprodrom> scribenick: AnnB
17:05:39 <eprodrom> scribe: AnnB
17:06:00 <AdamB> AdamB has joined #social
17:06:14 <Zakim> + +1.314.777.aacc
17:06:27 <AdamB> Zakim, AdamB is aacc
17:06:27 <Zakim> sorry, AdamB, I do not recognize a party named 'AdamB'
17:06:35 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-04-21-minutes
17:06:39 <harry> harry has joined #social
17:06:48 <AnnB> approve minutes from 21 April
17:06:52 <tantek> +1 LGTM
17:06:54 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: approve minutes ffor 21 April
17:06:58 <eprodrom> +1
17:06:59 <cwebber2> +1
17:07:02 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
17:07:02 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:07:03 <rhiaro> +1
17:07:03 <aaronpk> +1
17:07:16 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: approve minutes ffor 21 April
17:07:20 <AnnB> resolved to approve
17:07:26 <bblfish> +1
17:07:26 <harry> Zakim, code?
17:07:26 <Zakim> the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry
17:07:53 <AnnB> Evan: NO regular telecon next week, as F2F will be in Paris
17:08:01 <tantek> 12th
17:08:02 <Zakim> +harry
17:08:07 <AnnB> ... next telecon will be 12 May
17:08:13 <harry> Zakim, mute me
17:08:13 <Zakim> harry should now be muted
17:08:52 <AnnB> Evan: agenda for F2F, next week (4 and 5 May) ...
17:09:02 <AnnB> .. do we have outstanding issues for that meeting?
17:09:07 <harry> q+
17:09:14 <AnnB>  Arnaud: not that I know
17:09:26 <AnnB> ... but, what about food?
17:09:32 <harry> Zakim, unmute me
17:09:32 <Zakim> harry should no longer be muted
17:09:41 <AnnB> Sandro: no food provided, but Paris does not lack for cafes
17:09:53 <harry> ack harry
17:10:01 <AnnB> Harry: location is INRIA's office
17:10:03 <Loqi> Jsnell made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-04-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83885&oldid=83873
17:10:04 <Loqi> Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-04-28]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83886&oldid=83885
17:10:11 <AnnB> .. south side of Paris
17:10:12 <elf-pavlik> +1 securing food :)
17:10:29 <AnnB> ... will put up signs to room
17:10:33 <AnnB> ... probably coffee
17:10:36 <AnnB> ... no food
17:11:03 <AnnB> Sandro: looking at email from <someone> ..
17:11:22 <AnnB> .. breakfast can be delivered for a price .. not lunch
17:11:33 <AnnB> ... one must pay on their own
17:11:42 <AnnB> Harry: yes, will be there
17:12:09 <tilgovi> tilgovi has joined #social
17:12:12 <tantek> +1 glad to hear you'll be there Harry
17:12:14 <AnnB> Evan: great participation; ~19 people
17:12:52 <AnnB> ... worse things than having to go out to lunch in Paris
17:12:57 <tantek> zakim, mute me
17:12:57 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
17:12:58 <AnnB> +1
17:13:02 <harry> W3C should support its Working Groups. I'll ask MIT re coffee and food today, no help from ERCIM despite EC funding this effort but I can ask again.
17:13:12 <KevinMarks> go out to lunch and breakfast, people
17:13:13 <AnnB> Sandro: if anyoen can fund food, send me email pronto
17:13:30 <AnnB> +1 KevinMarks
17:13:32 <AnnB> haha
17:13:41 <AnnB> Evan: agenda filling out
17:13:48 <eprodrom> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04
17:13:51 <AnnB> ... chairs need to do final organizing
17:14:00 <harry> However, yes worse fates than eating lunch or having coffee in Paris.
17:14:20 <AnnB> ... last F2F we ran out of time on some important items
17:14:29 <eprodrom> q?
17:14:29 <AnnB> ... so let's prioritize this time
17:14:58 <AnnB> Evan: Outstanding Issues and Actions
17:15:13 <eprodrom> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/open
17:15:17 <AnnB> .. any of those ready to be closed?
17:15:20 <eprodrom> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/open
17:15:23 <harry> Let's not walk through them one by one
17:15:34 <eprodrom> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised
17:15:35 <AnnB> ... <no one speaks?
17:15:36 <harry> if there are no updates - but everyone should check.
17:15:50 <AnnB> s/speaks?/speaks>/
17:16:12 <AnnB> Evan: Activity Streams vs LDP Collection and paging structure raised this week
17:16:17 <tantek> issue-37
17:16:17 <trackbot> issue-37 -- LDP & AS2.0 paging alignment -- raised
17:16:17 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/37
17:16:19 <eprodrom> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/37
17:16:19 <jasnell> -0
17:16:26 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:16:29 <tantek> -0 (don't understand why it's relevant)
17:16:39 <harry> The larger question is probably if we have to chose between backwards compatibility with ActivityStreams and LDP, which do we do?
17:16:47 <AnnB> ... I'd like to propose this Issue be Opened
17:17:07 <AnnB> jasnell: -0 because we don't have concrete proposal on table
17:17:07 <harry> My guess it would depend it on the number of ActivityStreams 1.0 deployments out there vs. number of LDP deployments.
17:17:18 <bblfish> q+
17:17:23 <AnnB> ... LDP paging relatively new; no implementations
17:17:26 <KevinMarks> there's a McDonalds across the street http://imgur.com/KvOwzg1 ;)
17:17:27 <harry> So answering that empirically is probably right way IMHO
17:17:33 <tantek> +1 to jasnell's reasoning
17:17:49 <AnnB> .. opening it is maybe OK, but ..
17:17:52 <sandro> +1 jasnell let's wait until there's a concrete proposal for changing AS2
17:18:03 <bblfish> I added SoLiD to the https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Evaluation_of_API_Candidates
17:18:12 <eprodrom> +1
17:18:13 <elf-pavlik> q+ re: do we need concrete proposal to OPEN raised issue?
17:18:20 <AnnB> Evan: IMO if we have issue that's pertinent, better to open it in order to have discussion
17:18:22 <eprodrom> ack bblfish
17:18:26 <AnnB> ... even if we need to close it
17:18:45 <KevinMarks> this would eb a better choice - thanks foursquare: https://foursquare.com/v/la-butte-aux-piafs/51d2d6d8498e1573c8e26a94
17:18:56 <sandro> q?
17:19:09 <AnnB> bblfish: question of seeking compromise for both  LD and JSON communities
17:19:26 <AnnB> ... I need to understand more about JSON-LD, for example
17:19:46 <Arnaud> I do like the way LDP Paging separates paging from the data by using headers but this is a fairly significant change
17:20:02 <Loqi> Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83887&oldid=83883
17:20:03 <Loqi> Aboyet made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83889&oldid=83887
17:20:04 <Loqi> Bblfish made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83890&oldid=83889
17:20:13 <eprodrom> SoLiD
17:20:16 <AnnB> Evan: question: is this an issue for us, if a SoLiD API is one of the outputs of this grouip
17:20:20 <harry> q+
17:20:38 <harry> My guess would be some parts of SoLID might go into the Social API or ActivityStreams 2.0, but not all of it.
17:20:55 <harry> (There is BTW, no such thing as a false graph in RDF)
17:21:01 <AnnB> bblfish: point is not to tie AS to LDP at this point, but to figure out the minimal RDF
17:21:05 <harry> And "really doing RDF" is not a requirement in this WG BTW
17:21:20 <AnnB> ... not inferencing, etc
17:21:28 <jasnell> q+
17:21:37 <AnnB> ... just merging 2 graphs ... which I think is done correctly in LDP paging spec
17:21:47 <harry> There are probably a number of different ways to define "really doing RDF" :)
17:21:48 <tantek> harry - exactly - I don't understand this at all
17:21:55 <jasnell> btw, look at http://dandus.mybluemix.net/r/ for an example of AS2 + paging links in the HTTP headers
17:21:57 <AnnB> ... can think about how could that be done in JSON-LD
17:22:10 <harry> I don't think it's really important but happy for it to be an open issue.
17:22:15 <sandro> I thinks it's time for the chairs to re-assert their authority to decide which issues to open, because they're worth the time of the WG
17:22:24 <Arnaud> every issue we open adds to our workload
17:22:26 <tantek> sandro agreed
17:22:26 <eprodrom> ack elf-pavlik
17:22:28 <AnnB> Evan: asks queue to focus on question about opening this issue, NOT the technical merits of this and that
17:22:28 <Zakim> elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss do we need concrete proposal to OPEN raised issue?
17:22:35 <harry> q- harry
17:22:41 <tantek> I'm still not convinced, I've only heard a bunch of plumbing-specific reasoning.
17:22:47 <tantek> hence still -0
17:23:04 <jasnell> ah... nevermind, looks like that deployed version has the headers switched off ;-)
17:23:06 <sandro> -0.5 to opening this issue.     Let's not make up work for ourselves.    If there's a problem, THEN raise the issue.
17:23:14 <harry> Anyways, re the giant collection of possibly unused technolgies we could discuss, l suggest that someone just take homework looking for implementations.
17:23:19 <tantek> "as a placeholder"?!? no that's a horrible idea
17:23:19 <tantek> sandro - that's a good way of puttin git
17:23:23 <harry> So, for Webfinger, does anyone still support it?
17:23:27 <AnnB> elf-pavlik: I support opening the issue
17:23:28 <tantek> changing my answer to -0.5
17:23:33 <harry> Ditto LDP paging
17:23:35 <eprodrom> harry, pump.io does
17:23:36 <aaronpk> agreed with "if there's a problem, then raise the issue"
17:23:40 <harry> Yep, exactly.
17:23:46 <AnnB> ... do not need to have clear resolution before opening
17:23:46 <harry> That's the kinds of data-points we need to make decisions.
17:23:47 <eprodrom> q?
17:23:52 <eprodrom> ack jasnell
17:24:07 <AnnB> jasnell: back to RDF and merging of graphs..
17:24:08 <tantek> this seems like a "might be a problem" issue, not an *actual* issue - thus I'm starting to lean towards rejecting
17:24:09 <harry> I am not sure if we want to get deluged in open issues.
17:24:14 <AnnB> .. 1) we're not dealing with RDF
17:24:37 <AnnB> ... yes, someone might use RDF for modeling, but not a requirement
17:24:50 <harry> So at some point, we might want to tighten raising issues. Typically, I'm happy to give the Editor discretion in opening most issues.
17:24:51 <AnnB> ... but what is the issue? not clear
17:25:08 <tantek> agreed with jasnell
17:25:09 <AnnB> ... need better definition
17:25:23 <AnnB> ... what does not work in current model?
17:25:37 <AnnB> ... in JSON what does not work
17:25:41 <bblfish> q?
17:25:46 <bblfish> https://blogs.oracle.com/bblfish/entry/crystalizing_rdf
17:25:57 <AnnB> bblfish: hard to answer right now; could do on email
17:25:57 <tantek> many of us do not care about doing RDF
17:26:12 <AnnB> ... those who are doing RDF could use it
17:26:15 <tantek> so it is inaccurate to express "we are doing RDF" for the group
17:26:20 <harry> RSS 1.1 was not exactly an amazing success story :)
17:26:21 <KevinMarks> we're doing pure JSON with a way for RDF to be created from it
17:26:43 <AnnB> ... trying to find compromise that satisfies multiple communities
17:26:45 <KevinMarks> RSS 3 got more adoption than RSS 1.1
17:27:21 <tantek> has this affected any implementations? or spec language?
17:27:24 <AnnB> ... <scribe missed who / what .. divergent ways of modeling>
17:27:33 <tantek> AnnB - that was bblfish
17:27:36 <Arnaud> I think this is primarily a design style issue
17:27:39 <harry> I agree we should respect the divergence if it has implementation impact (I don't count ontology differences, given one side doesn't use one, as an implementation impact)
17:27:40 <eprodrom> PROPOSED: open issue 37
17:27:42 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:27:43 <eprodrom> +1
17:27:44 <bblfish> +1
17:27:49 <aaronpk> issue-37
17:27:49 <trackbot> issue-37 -- LDP & AS2.0 paging alignment -- raised
17:27:49 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/37
17:27:51 <wilkie> +1
17:27:51 <tantek> -0.5 per Sandro's reasoning, and jasnell 's reasoning
17:27:52 <Tsyesika> +1
17:27:59 <cwebber2> +1
17:28:00 <AnnB> yes, tantek .. I think I started with bblfish at beginning of that sequence
17:28:01 <ben_thatmustbeme> 0
17:28:03 <rhiaro> 0
17:28:11 <sandro> -0 it's probably a waste of time at this point
17:28:13 <aaronpk> -0 per sandro's reasoning
17:28:34 <tantek> group's time is limited, and issues not affecting a specific implementation or spec should not be opened
17:28:41 <tantek> let's get better at raising *specific* concrete issues
17:29:03 <harry> scribenick: harry
17:29:03 <bblfish> ok I'll do
17:29:09 <bblfish> ok harry
17:29:10 <elf-pavlik> harry++
17:29:12 <Loqi> harry has 11 karma
17:29:20 <ben_thatmustbeme> scribe: harry
17:29:21 <harry> evanp: ISSUE opened.
17:29:42 <jasnell> I'm still -0
17:29:52 <tantek> either way, no difference, no objection.
17:30:07 <AnnB> CAN SOMEONE TYPE>>> KEYBOARD WENT BAD (SORRY)
17:30:24 <eprodrom> AnnB: harry is going to step in
17:30:28 <eprodrom> scribe: harry
17:30:53 <wilkie> scribenick??
17:30:59 <harry> eprodrom: Deadline for today to get Social API candidates ready for review
17:31:01 <bblfish> RESOLVED: Issue37 opened
17:31:13 <elf-pavlik> https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-05-04#Evaluation_of_API_Candidates
17:31:21 <wilkie> ooh ok
17:31:28 <harry> ... the intention was to have SoLID, Pump.io, and Micropub ready to discuss
17:31:31 <sandro> q+
17:31:32 <harry> ... any updates?
17:31:41 <Tsyesika> we do, it's https://w3c-social.github.io/activitypump/
17:31:44 <cwebber2> eprodrom: Tsyesika doesn't have a working mic today fyi
17:31:46 <Tsyesika> (sorry i don't have my mic)
17:31:46 <elf-pavlik> Tsyesika++
17:31:48 <Loqi> Tsyesika has 7 karma
17:31:51 <harry> The link to the Pump.io spec is old in the wiki, update real quick?
17:32:00 <harry> evprodrom: We have a working review
17:32:04 <cwebber2> Tsyesika++
17:32:06 <Loqi> Tsyesika has 8 karma
17:32:24 <tantek> ok
17:32:46 <harry> eprodrom: Let's set-up for evaluation of API candidates - do we have a micropub-based proposal?
17:32:49 <aaronpk> https://indiewebcamp.com/Micropub
17:32:54 <elf-pavlik> aaronpk++
17:32:57 <Loqi> aaronpk has 786 karma
17:33:03 <harry> aaronpk: I'll do another pass on it today but its ready for review
17:33:17 <sandro> https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD
17:33:21 <harry> sandro: SoLID is not as polished as we like, but it's feature complete
17:33:32 <harry> eprodrom: All up and ready to discuss
17:33:52 <harry> eprodrom: Linked to Hydra and Linked Data Fragments
17:33:58 <elf-pavlik> i'll demo at least Hydra
17:34:01 <harry> ... note that neither of those are there.
17:34:09 <elf-pavlik> q+
17:34:14 <harry> q+
17:34:25 <harry> ... so part of our resolution was to stick to these three
17:34:35 <eprodrom> ack sandro
17:34:36 <rhiaro> I thought sticking with the list was until another demo came forward?
17:34:36 <harry> ... unless it's a real 'going to blow us away' not sure if we should leave these open
17:34:41 <sandro> q-
17:34:41 <Tsyesika> I thought new candidates could be accepted later if they could demo?
17:34:42 <eprodrom> ack elf-pavlik
17:34:58 <the_frey> the_frey has joined #social
17:35:05 <tantek> q+ to note that we did leave the door open at the last f2f for more demos as a way to introduce additional API candidates.
17:35:09 <harry> So, let's remove them from candidates
17:35:12 <Arnaud> I agree with Evan's take on this
17:35:25 <harry> elf-pavlik: We don't have a query langugae
17:35:31 <Arnaud> we need to further narrow the scope, not widen it :)
17:35:36 <harry> ... they are not competing not complimentary
17:35:41 <harry> q- harry
17:35:48 <harry> eprodrom: Remove them from list, put them on another section
17:35:58 <harry> ... if time for them being discussed, let's do that.
17:36:04 <eprodrom> q?
17:36:10 <eprodrom> ack tantek
17:36:11 <Zakim> tantek, you wanted to note that we did leave the door open at the last f2f for more demos as a way to introduce additional API candidates.
17:36:12 <harry> +1 narrow focus
17:36:44 <cwebber2> ah, tantek is right, I forgot about that
17:36:51 <harry> tantek: We did leave it open, and we would need a demo of specific user-stories
17:36:55 <harry> q+
17:37:12 <harry> My opinion is that we'll add them to candidates at f2f if we cover user-stories with those technologies.
17:37:15 <Zakim> +Sandro.a
17:37:22 <Zakim> -Sandro
17:37:27 <harry> ... just make sure they actually cover user-stories
17:37:34 <elf-pavlik> Additional Candidates[edit]
17:37:35 <elf-pavlik> (if time allows and have demos for existing user stories)
17:37:56 <harry> q- harry
17:38:17 <harry> eprodrom: The most important thing is for people remotely participating and to read over the documents
17:38:28 <harry> ... everyone should have some notes on each document
17:38:35 <harry> ... be prepared to address them.
17:38:44 <harry> ... do we have for each one for notes to be submitted?
17:38:49 <harry> q+
17:38:52 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/linkeddata/SoLiD/issues
17:38:56 <Tsyesika> open issues? :)
17:39:09 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/aaronpk/Micropub/issues
17:39:09 <harry> The others are on github
17:39:19 <harry> q- harry
17:39:22 <harry> +1 github
17:39:26 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/w3c-social/activitypump/issues
17:39:35 <tantek> or you could post on your own site feedback about Micropub and send a webmention ;)
17:39:39 <harry> notes we'll be moving ActivityStreams and its testing to W3C github's account.
17:39:40 <elf-pavlik> could everyone add those link to F2F wiki?
17:39:46 <aaronpk> i will definitely read those :)
17:40:02 <Loqi> Bblfish made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83891&oldid=83890
17:40:03 <Loqi> Pelf made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-05-04]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83892&oldid=83891
17:40:05 <harry> eprodrom: any other API discussions?
17:40:11 <tantek> zakim, mute me
17:40:11 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
17:40:33 <harry> ... thanks to everyone who has taken up agenda
17:40:37 <harry> eprodrom: lots of agenda
17:40:57 <harry> topic: test-suite status
17:40:58 <AnnB> not really >>
17:41:04 <AnnB> getting weird chars
17:41:11 <AnnB> i can type some< but wonky
17:41:56 <harry> jasnell: We have W3C github accounts set up by harry
17:41:59 <AnnB> e>g> can"t type slash
17:42:00 <cwebber2> woooo!
17:42:01 <harry> ... IBM gave us approvals, we should have test-suite on github
17:42:20 <harry> ... J.P is moving it out
17:42:20 <harry> q+
17:42:27 <harry> ... we will look to community to fill it out
17:42:35 <harry> Does J.P. have a github ID?
17:42:45 <harry> Or does it go via you?
17:42:48 <harry> (either is fine)
17:43:17 <tantek> come back AnnB!
17:43:17 <harry> topic: Simplifying audience we're addressing
17:43:22 <elf-pavlik> q+
17:43:24 <tantek> summary?
17:43:38 <Tsyesika> i can't hear ><.<
17:43:40 <Tsyesika> * >.<
17:43:46 <harry> Zakim, mute me
17:43:47 <Zakim> harry was already muted, harry
17:44:12 <harry> jasnell: Can we simplify the issues?
17:44:18 <elf-pavlik> q?
17:44:33 <eprodrom> ack harry
17:45:11 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/w3c/modern-tooling
17:45:27 <harry> Just noting that *anyone* can do pull requests
17:45:34 <elf-pavlik> q?
17:45:44 <elf-pavlik> q-
17:45:45 <harry> but that W3C Social editors are in charge of approving push/merge
17:45:58 <harry> jasnell: mismatch between icons and the rel attribute
17:46:00 <harry> Zkaim, mute me
17:46:09 <harry> ... for the most part, I'm +1
17:46:13 <harry> s/+1/+0
17:46:14 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100
17:46:23 <harry> ... I see it as a simplifications
17:46:29 <harry> ... parallels with atom link and links in html
17:46:33 <harry> ... point it can be confusing
17:46:38 <Zakim> +Ann_Bassetti
17:46:41 <harry> ... difference between property name
17:46:45 <harry> ... remove 'rel'
17:46:51 <harry> ... use the property name as link relationship
17:46:52 <elf-pavlik> +1
17:47:02 <Zakim> -Ann
17:47:10 <harry> eprodrom: We will have other encodings using IETF link relationships
17:47:16 <harry> ... HTTP headers, etc.
17:47:19 <tantek> HTML5 does not use IETF link relations, FWIW
17:47:20 <harry> ... HTML6
17:47:23 <elf-pavlik> HTML5 uses microformats link relations
17:47:29 <bblfish> q+
17:47:37 <harry> s/HTML6/WebFinger
17:47:39 <tantek> W3C formats have settled on microformats link relations
17:47:43 <elf-pavlik> https://github.com/mnot/I-D/issues/39
17:48:00 <tantek> and informally last week I asked Mark Nottingham if HTTP2 could use microformats link relations and he said sure
17:48:04 <jasnell> the status quo is that "rel" must be compliant to both IETF link relations and HTML5 link relations
17:48:22 <cwebber2> cwebber2 has joined #social
17:48:29 <harry> ... the whole point is to have 'rel'
17:48:36 <KevinMarks> cite for evan: http://www.w3.org/TR/html5/links.html#other-link-types
17:48:36 <harry> ... I see no reason to remove
17:48:37 <eprodrom> q?
17:48:38 <jasnell> I'm -+0 to the proposal to remove "rel"
17:48:40 <tantek> I'm still not sure how as:Link works, but am a moderate fan of rel
17:48:43 <bblfish> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/98#issuecomment-94702056
17:48:47 <eprodrom> ack bblfish
17:49:02 <tantek> note that link relations predate Atom - started in HTML long before that
17:49:14 <harry> bblfish: If you look at link relationships, on what element does the title come?
17:49:27 <jasnell> I'm definitely -1 on removing as:Link
17:49:56 <harry> ... so as I argued that if you do a mapping from link relationships to an ontology where I modelled it (Atom-OWL)
17:50:04 <harry> ... there's not many ways you can do this correctly
17:50:15 <harry> ... map to RDF Reification
17:50:23 <harry> ... the link relationship is just a reified relation
17:50:32 <harry> ... so you can transform it into a relationship
17:50:39 <harry> ... so its a big simplificiation
17:50:52 <tantek> wow I have no idea how to process the thread at https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100 nor what problem it is trying to solve.
17:51:00 <harry> hehe
17:51:04 <tantek> is that what happens when you use JSON instead of HTML to do an <a href rel> ?
17:51:26 <harry> should probably be a single way to do rel, but I think we have that in terms of as:Link
17:51:31 <tantek> is anyone consuming as:Link ?
17:51:32 <jasnell> -1 to removing as:Link
17:51:38 <harry> eprodrom: Is there a way to remove as:Link with less pressure?
17:51:39 <aaronpk> what is as:Link for?
17:51:42 <elf-pavlik> +1 removing as:Link
17:51:44 <harry> -1 to removing as:Link
17:51:45 <tantek> zakim, unmute me
17:51:45 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
17:51:59 <elf-pavlik> http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#link
17:52:00 <tantek> if pump.io is using as:Link, that's a strong argument to keeping it
17:52:02 <AnnB> AnnB has joined #social
17:52:07 <harry> jasnell: as:Link sets up a qualified linked relationship
17:52:16 <harry> ... I can include the note object
17:52:20 <cwebber2> 0 on removing as:link ;)
17:52:28 <harry> ... right there or I can describe a link to that note
17:52:35 <harry> ... the difference is that the title may be different
17:52:39 <KevinMarks> I have just been adding mf2 rel parsing to universal feed parser, so that link's in the body with rels end up in the parsed collection of lnks
17:52:59 <harry> ... two different references have different metadatas
17:53:26 <tantek> zakim, who is barking?
17:53:26 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, tantek.
17:53:26 <eprodrom> Dog?
17:53:31 <harry> ... maybe what is described is reference to object
17:53:31 <eprodrom> tantek++
17:53:34 <Loqi> tantek has 182 karma
17:53:36 <harry> ... if you break the document into triples
17:53:49 <harry> ... if you don't have as:Link, metadata steps all over each other
17:54:01 <Zakim> +Ann.a
17:54:09 <Zakim> -Ann_Bassetti
17:54:14 <harry> jasnell: Description of reference
17:54:15 <KevinMarks> I have 3 dogs with me but they aren't barking and I'm muted
17:54:17 <tantek> aaronpk: does that mean the URL provides the canonical information?
17:54:25 <harry> ... so you don't want to duplicate that URL data on all the types
17:54:27 <bblfish> q?
17:54:35 <bblfish> q+
17:54:52 <harry> eprodrom: Would you have to duplicate?
17:54:59 <harry> jasnell: it's the same as links in Atom
17:55:11 <harry> ... same as anchor tag
17:55:12 <aaronpk> s/eprodrom/aaronpk
17:55:26 <eprodrom> heh
17:55:32 <harry> ... as:Link allows you describe the reference
17:55:47 <harry> aaronpk: it allows you to describe the reference
17:55:55 <harry> jasnell: I'm against removing as:Link
17:56:16 <KevinMarks> if you're having links, rels clarify them
17:56:55 <harry> tantek: Keeping rel and Link would allow you to keep easier compatibility with HTML
17:57:01 <harry> ... more compatibility with what is on web
17:57:02 <Zakim> -tantek
17:57:03 <harry> q?
17:57:03 <eprodrom> q?
17:57:07 <tantek> q?
17:57:07 <harry> ack bblfish
17:57:08 <eprodrom> ack bblfish
17:57:16 <harry> bblfish: This is a modelling discussion
17:57:24 <eprodrom> This will be the end of our discussion, btw
17:57:28 <jasnell> I'm fine with keeping rel. But some folks have problems with it so I put the proposal on the table to see where the consensus is
17:57:34 <Zakim> +??P11
17:57:35 <harry> ... since it's just a reificiation, then you lose a lot from leaving it out
17:57:38 <tantek> zakim, ??p11 is me
17:57:38 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:57:40 <bblfish> https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/100#issuecomment-95253148
17:57:43 <harry> ... I propose one can do it
17:57:56 <harry> ... see graphics on that page
17:57:57 <elf-pavlik> I can prepare clear diagrams and exmaples of the issue for F2F (or compile existing ones spread across mailing list and gh issue)
17:58:02 <harry> ... relationships to alternates of that
17:58:08 <tantek> what's the problem that the example is trying to solve?
17:58:11 <harry> ... blank node, too complex for a telecon
17:58:25 <harry> tantek, I think bblfish is trying to figure out how to map it in a way he likes to an ontology
17:58:26 <tantek> what's the real world problem that needs discussing blank nodes?
17:58:46 <harry> he is assuming you are using RDF. The 'real world problem' is unclear to me as well
17:58:47 <tantek> harry - I'm having difficulty understanding all the architecture diagrams unrelated to a specific real world publishing problem.
17:58:48 <elf-pavlik> including issues with as:Link instances included as items of as:Collection
17:58:52 <tantek> but I'll keep reading
17:59:10 <harry> In general, reificiation is not even recommended in RDF.
17:59:15 <harry> scribenick: AnnB
17:59:19 <harry> scribe: AnnB
17:59:41 <AnnB> bblfish: I think I'm OK w removing the REL, but should be worked offline
17:59:59 <AnnB> Evan: nearing end of meeting; how to proceed?
18:00:04 <tantek> I'd rather keep compat with the simple HTML model of publishing and hyperlinks.
18:00:08 <AnnB> ... suggest leaving it up to editor to continue
18:00:16 <AnnB> ... proposals on guidance to editor?
18:00:17 <tantek> PROPOSAL: keep AS2 compat with HTML <a href rel type>
18:00:52 <harry> q?
18:00:54 <AnnB> ... other prposals?
18:00:57 <tantek> (based on compat with existing publishing practices)
18:01:05 <cwebber2> 0
18:01:05 <eprodrom> +1
18:01:06 <AnnB> s/prposals/proposals/
18:01:06 <bblfish> I am not sure I understand that proposal
18:01:07 <ben_thatmustbeme> +1
18:01:10 <tantek> +1
18:01:24 <AnnB> Evan: not closing this; just giving guidance
18:01:28 <KevinMarks> +1
18:01:29 <AnnB> ... it's up to the editor
18:01:31 <aaronpk> +1
18:01:39 <bblfish> I am for working on these arguments more closely.
18:01:55 <AnnB> ... asks elf-pavlik and bblfish for opinions
18:02:11 <elf-pavlik> we need to develop little more common understanding
18:02:16 <harry> i.e. rejecting elf-pavlik's suggestion to drop
18:02:19 <AnnB> ... on proposal as written by tantek
18:02:23 <harry> Zakim, mute me
18:02:23 <Zakim> harry should now be muted
18:02:26 <elf-pavlik> i have impression that some people might have not read or understand http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#link
18:02:28 <AnnB> ... <someone> points out that is status quo
18:02:39 <AnnB> bblfish: no opinion; just think the discussion isn't over
18:02:42 <bblfish> -0
18:02:53 <AnnB> Evan: I agree re: discussion; just trying to wrap up for today
18:03:22 <AnnB> ... looks like all +1 and 0 ..
18:03:22 <elf-pavlik> -0 without as:Link and as:rel we still stay compat with HTML
18:03:23 <eprodrom> RESOLVED: keep AS2 compat with HTML <a href rel type>
18:03:41 <harry> Seems keeping compatibility with Atom makes sense to me
18:03:49 <AnnB> Evan: thanks everyoen
18:03:58 <AnnB> s/everyoen/everyone/
18:04:05 <Zakim> -jasnell
18:04:17 <Zakim> - +1.314.777.aacc
18:04:19 <Zakim> -aaronpk
18:04:19 <Zakim> -bblfish
18:04:21 <Zakim> -aaaa
18:04:22 <harry> chairs - time to go over f2f logistics
18:04:23 <eprodrom> Zakim who is on the call?
18:04:24 <cwebber2> thanks all
18:04:26 <harry> trackbot, end meeting
18:04:26 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
18:04:27 <Zakim> -Tsyesika
18:04:27 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Ann, +1.408.335.aaaa, Sandro, Arnaud, jasnell, elf-pavlik, +1.617.247.aabb, aaronpk, tantek, ben_thatmustbeme, cwebber2, eprodrom, rhiaro,
18:04:27 <Zakim> ... aaaa, Tsyesika, bblfish, +1.314.777.aacc, harry, Ann_Bassetti
18:04:28 <Zakim> -ben_thatmustbeme
18:04:30 <Zakim> -cwebber2
18:04:31 <Arnaud> that won't kick us out
18:04:34 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
18:04:34 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/28-social-minutes.html trackbot
18:04:35 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
18:04:35 <RRSAgent> I see no action items
18:04:39 <elf-pavlik> i encourage everyone to check links on agenda to the topics we didn't manage get to in this call!