16:48:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #ua
16:48:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/23-ua-irc
16:48:49 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:48:49 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #ua
16:48:51 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG
16:48:51 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 12 minutes
16:48:52 <trackbot> Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
16:48:52 <trackbot> Date: 23 April 2015
16:49:37 <allanj> rrsagent, set logs public
16:51:54 <allanj> agenda+ DRAFT Charter http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/draft_uawg_charter.html
16:59:41 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started
16:59:48 <Zakim> +Jeanne
17:01:22 <Zakim> +Jim_Allan
17:03:29 <Zakim> +??P24
17:03:44 <Greg> Greg has joined #ua
17:03:52 <jeanne> P24 is greg
17:03:54 <Zakim> -??P24
17:04:16 <Zakim> +Greg_Lowney
17:05:46 <Jan> Jan has joined #ua
17:05:52 <Jan> zakim, code?
17:05:52 <Zakim> the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
17:05:54 <Zakim> +Kim_Patch
17:06:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:06:40 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
17:06:40 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
17:06:57 <Kim> Kim has joined #ua
17:10:59 <jeanne> q-
17:13:19 <allanj> scribe: allanj
17:13:31 <allanj> zakim, open item 1
17:13:31 <Zakim> agendum 1. "DRAFT Charter http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2013/draft_uawg_charter.html" taken up [from allanj]
17:13:42 <allanj> Topic: Charter
17:13:55 <allanj> must recharter every 3 years
17:14:25 <allanj> UAWG last chartered in 2010
17:15:00 <allanj> W3 Advisory Committee must approve
17:16:18 <allanj> UAWG can publish UAAG as a note
17:16:45 <allanj> js has questions?
17:17:01 <allanj> What do we want to do with the Reference?
17:17:02 <allanj> How long do we want the charter to run?
17:17:04 <allanj> What do we want to do once we get UAAG published as a Note?
17:17:05 <allanj> E.g. what would we work on?
17:17:07 <allanj> Would we want to become part of WCAG or some other iteration of a core group?
17:17:08 <allanj> What could our publications look like?
17:17:54 <allanj> gl: so we have permission to publish as a note, is that where we are going, or the start of a process.
17:18:23 <allanj> js: UAWG has 7 formal objections - all saying UAAG should be a note
17:19:08 <allanj> jr: this is a good thing. put something out that can be referenced. Gov and Orgs can point to it
17:20:14 <allanj> js: good point. most don't know the difference between Note and Recommendation
17:20:35 <allanj> rrsagent, make minuts
17:20:35 <RRSAgent> I'm logging. I don't understand 'make minuts', allanj.  Try /msg RRSAgent help
17:20:39 <allanj> rrsagent, make minutes
17:20:39 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/23-ua-minutes.html allanj
17:22:13 <allanj> jr: a browser implementation guide for WCAG
17:22:47 <allanj> === draft charter ===
17:22:49 <allanj> http://www.w3.org/WAI/UA/2015/draft_uawg_charter.html
17:24:04 <allanj> jr: write the implementations a piece at a time not a monolithic document
17:25:17 <allanj> js: start with use cases, what the UA need to do to implement WCAG. this is what is missing for UAs to pay attention
17:26:12 <allanj> js: +1 to implementations for WCAG
17:26:48 <allanj> js: could create modules that are REC for focus or media players
17:27:04 <allanj> js: very agile
17:27:33 <allanj> jr: need browser by in before we go there, need a couple of repts
17:27:43 <allanj> s/repts/reps
17:28:15 <allanj> gl: last week ... people pay attention to recommendations
17:29:06 <allanj> gl: a note has no teeth. gov won't point to something that is not a "standard"
17:30:05 <allanj> ... being able to give advice is good. however, if not part of gov purchasing then browser developers won't pay attention
17:30:46 <allanj> js: if we publish as is, remove words "normative" then finish the test suite.
17:31:25 <allanj> ... we would have everything needed for someone to implement, it would be complete.
17:32:20 <allanj> jr: if some gov decided to use it, they could. no one has used UAAG10
17:32:32 <allanj> ... in any legislation.
17:32:51 <allanj> kp: what are we talking about publishing
17:32:58 <allanj> ... what are choices
17:33:24 <allanj> js: pub UAAG20 as a note with some wording modifications
17:33:43 <allanj> ... then create normative modules
17:33:55 <allanj> ... or WCAG implementations
17:33:59 <allanj> ... or ...
17:34:49 <allanj> jr: pub as note plants a flag. then state the need for a normative module -- focus, etc.
17:35:00 <allanj> kp: this might be useful.
17:36:09 <allanj> jr: we dropped a couple of things that were really good, but we could not find a way to test.
17:36:25 <allanj> kp: can we do module tests
17:36:40 <allanj> gl: if we have to do tests, why not rec.
17:37:02 <allanj> js: note does not require testing
17:37:33 <allanj> ... tests are not implementations, we don't have to do the testing to hunt for implementations
17:38:44 <allanj> kp: doc with teeth is always better, but seems we won
17:38:56 <allanj> s/won/won't
17:39:21 <allanj> ... get there. Note seems next best thing
17:40:17 <allanj> gl: good to document the things that are needed. Even if not implemented. there is no browser that will fully meet everything
17:40:34 <allanj> kp: do we need full test suite.
17:41:39 <allanj> jr: we should do a note. not a lot that was taken out.
17:42:09 <allanj> gl: over the last 4 years we have removed several. but don't have objective tests for some.
17:42:34 <allanj> kp: can we leave out tests for things that are untestable.
17:43:03 <allanj> ... can we segment tests, or segment the document - testable and no tests
17:43:26 <allanj> js: would have to re-org document
17:44:01 <allanj> kp: do it for each guideline - things with tests and things that are good advice
17:44:15 <allanj> js: could do tests in the reference document
17:45:23 <allanj> ja: what about using the Reference doc as a note.
17:46:06 <allanj> gl: guideline doc is more usable
17:47:25 <allanj> ja: have a button to show/hide IER
17:47:43 <allanj> kp: expand/collapse section
17:49:38 <allanj> js: time line less than a year if we have good deliverables
17:50:09 <allanj> jr: deliverable Note in a month or so
17:50:50 <allanj> ... one pager - UAAG implementation techniques for WCAG in 6 months
17:51:00 <allanj> kp: does not include tests?
17:51:27 <allanj> js: gl concern - want something folks will refer to - test may help
17:52:15 <allanj> kp: modularized tests - easy things to test, and advisory SCs
17:52:42 <allanj> kp: useful to publish existing tests
17:53:17 <allanj> jr: there is also quality of test items, they should be validated.
17:53:44 <allanj> ... are the tests good enough for scrutiny...no
17:54:01 <allanj> kp: perhaps provide "sample tests"
17:54:15 <allanj> jr: still lots of work
17:54:57 <allanj> jr: to get UAs back to the table, one pager on things they are doing anyway.
17:56:30 <allanj> jr: something from WCAG - how to create content that works with UA functionality... this is the functionality that is necessary for UA to provide meeitng WCAG SC
17:56:40 <allanj> ... and reference UAAG note
17:56:53 <allanj> kp: how many of these?
17:57:05 <allanj> jr: hopefully all of WCAG
17:57:18 <allanj> kp: how many to see if they are popular
17:57:47 <allanj> jr: 3 or so
17:58:04 <allanj> kp: a bit more, find the strategic one.
17:58:17 <allanj> kp: so this would go in the charter as a task
17:59:24 <allanj> js: no number, just general - write techniques for implementing WCAG
18:00:34 <allanj> ja: have been talking about creating Note, developing tests, and WCAG implementations
18:00:49 <allanj> ... tho seems we thrashed the tests
18:01:03 <allanj> jr: no more time for me
18:01:39 <allanj> js: also Normative module (focus, media player, etc)
18:04:07 <allanj> ja: if normative module - then need tests and 2 implementations
18:05:35 <allanj> plan so far:
18:05:36 <allanj> * Large document Note
18:05:38 <allanj> * WCAG implementation sheets (point back to Note)
18:05:39 <allanj> * Normative modules with tests and 2 implementations
18:06:57 <allanj> gl: have to see how modules are developed,  interrelations between modules might be an issue
18:09:43 <allanj> jr: WCAG plain old keyboard navigation - form navigation, link navigation
18:10:35 <allanj> ... add div with an CSS overflow that is not well implemented
18:12:18 <allanj> kp: video player on TED can't get to English subtitles from keyboard
18:12:37 <allanj> == add use cases to the list of things to do
18:14:02 <allanj> kp: need good use cases and bad use cases
18:15:52 <allanj> jr: standardization, give examples of where things are done well, and where they are not.
18:18:08 <allanj> kp: letting user save and share shortcuts, also change them, starting from a good base of standard shortcuts
18:26:18 <Zakim> -Jan
18:26:20 <Zakim> -Kim_Patch
18:26:23 <Zakim> -Greg_Lowney
18:28:40 <Zakim> -Jim_Allan
18:28:42 <Zakim> -Jeanne
18:28:44 <Zakim> WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended
18:28:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Jeanne, Jim_Allan, Greg_Lowney, Kim_Patch, Jan
18:53:21 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:53:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne
18:54:19 <jeanne> chair: Jim
18:55:33 <jeanne> s/put something out that can be referenced. Gov and Orgs can point to it/put something out that can be referenced.
18:58:45 <jeanne> rrsagent, make minutes
18:58:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/23-ua-minutes.html jeanne