14:59:10 RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents 14:59:10 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-irc 14:59:13 + +1.571.426.aaaa 14:59:16 RRSAgent, make log public 14:59:50 +??P12 14:59:54 just a sec 14:59:57 zakim, P12 is ArtB 14:59:57 sorry, ArtB, I do not recognize a party named 'P12' 15:00:07 zakim, ??P12 is ArtB 15:00:07 +ArtB; got it 15:00:31 ScribeNick: ArtB 15:00:31 Scribe: ArtB 15:00:31 Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference 15:00:31 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0062.html 15:00:38 zakim, who's here? 15:00:38 On the phone I see +1.571.426.aaaa, ArtB 15:00:40 On IRC I see RRSAgent, Zakim, tdresser, smaug, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu_, mbrubeck, sangwhan_, trackbot, mustaq, rbyers, slightlyoff, dfreedm 15:00:41 +Scott_Gonzalez 15:01:12 +[Microsoft] 15:01:56 jrossi has joined #pointerevents 15:02:00 +[IPcaller] 15:02:12 Zakim, [IPcaller] 15:02:12 I don't understand '[IPcaller]', smaug 15:02:17 +rbyers 15:02:21 Zakim, who's on the call? 15:02:21 On the phone I see +1.571.426.aaaa, ArtB, Scott_Gonzalez, [Microsoft], [IPcaller], rbyers 15:02:26 Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay 15:02:26 +Olli_Pettay; got it 15:02:32 Zakim, Microsoft is jrossi 15:02:32 +jrossi; got it 15:02:38 Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay 15:02:38 ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay 15:03:08 +Doug_Schepers 15:03:20 Present: Art_Barstow, Asir_Vedamuthu, Scott_González, Jacob_Rossi, Olli_Pettay, Rick_Byers, Tim_Dresser, Doug_Schepers 15:03:37 Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon, Patrick_H_Lauke 15:03:42 Topic: Agree on Agenda 15:03:49 AB: yesterday I posted a draft agenda based on Rick's suggestions https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0062.html. Any change requests? 15:04:13 RB: we don't have to talk about all of these 15:04:19 … could take some to the list 15:04:38 AB: we can just go through them and move to list if needed 15:04:42 RB: sounds good 15:04:53 AB: I have a couple of items for AoB 15:04:59 Topic: Editing Policy and Change Control 15:05:06 AB: the group's "Editing Policy" is defined in https://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/WGCode#Editing_Policy and it states an "edit first, review later" workflow. The recent discussion thread is https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0053.html. 15:05:26 AB: there are two related Qs regarding PR review: 1) do Editors need approval before merging their PRs; 2) does an Editor need to review a PR from a non-Editor before it is merged. Currently, the Editors are Jacob and Matt. 15:05:57 AB: on the list I said the answer to these two Qs are No (which validates/confirms our Editing Policy) and Yes, respectively. Any disagreement with that? 15:06:17 … or other comments 15:06:25 RB: I forgot the Editing Policy 15:06:31 … don't think we need any changes 15:06:47 AB: any other comments? 15:06:49 [ None ] 15:06:53 RESOLUTION: PRs from Editors do not need to be reviewed before merging. 15:06:58 RESOLUTION: PRs from non-Editors must be reviewed by an Editor before merging. 15:07:05 Topic: Normalize LF line endings 15:07:12 AB: this is about PR 5 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/pull/5. Is there a need to discuss or do we give the Editors an action to merge the PR? 15:07:32 JR: I'm happy to merge it 15:07:47 RB: I might have misunderstood something 15:07:53 … wasn't sure 15:08:09 ACTION: Jacob to merge PR#5 15:08:09 Created ACTION-150 - Merge pr#5 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2015-04-28]. 15:08:38 ?w=1 15:08:50 JR: there is an option on GH 15:09:01 [ see Scott's info above ] 15:09:11 Topic: Value of a button in chorded events 15:09:23 AB: this is Issue #4 https://github.com/w3c/pointerevents/issues/4 which is the result of a comment on March 16 from Stuart Bentley https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015JanMar/0029.html. 15:10:07 AB: do we discuss now or take discussion to the Issue? 15:10:13 RB: I replied in the issue 15:10:18 … need input from JR 15:10:38 JR: because there is some inheritance from mouse, keeping with bitmap makes sense 15:10:54 … want to make it easier to write touch code 15:11:27 … We had briefly talked (perhaps on v2 wiki) if there is a new system f.ex. a new property to detect button state 15:11:32 In particular, interesting point Jacob mentioned that overlapping pointerdown/pointerup for the same pointer ID would be a pain for multi-touch 15:11:37 … f.ex. we thought about this for pens and erassers 15:12:21 … We could add some more information about button state 15:12:47 … but start to get into a lot of potential possibliities 15:12:57 … If we want to do something here, need to do something new 15:13:14 JR: agree but think the spec is a bit incomplete, perhaps not consistent 15:13:24 … says button follows from mouse event 15:13:42 … not specified how button should behave when multiple buttons are pressed 15:14:01 … Think the comment is that we need to be more explicit when multiple buttons are pressed 15:14:15 … We could eliminate the note [ref needed!] 15:14:37 s/JR:/RB:/ 15:15:00 JR: with button bitmask don't know specifically which button caused the event 15:15:25 … don't know which button just up'ed, for example 15:16:16 RB: need to define chord when there's a move 15:16:21 JR: oh, ok 15:16:31 … let me think how to address this 15:16:43 … I'll make a PR and send a link to it 15:16:50 ACTION: submit a PR for issue #4 15:16:50 Error finding 'submit'. You can review and register nicknames at . 15:17:02 ACTION: jacob submit a PR for issue #4 15:17:02 Created ACTION-151 - Submit a pr for issue #4 [on Jacob Rossi - due 2015-04-28]. 15:17:32 Topic: Discuss proposed spec text for direction-specific touch-action values 15:17:47 AB: this thread was started by Rick on March 17 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015JanMar/0033.html and discussion has continued for a few weeks. 15:18:01 AB: on April 16, Rick's https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0048.html e-mail included a link to his proposal i.e. a spec diff https://github.com/RByers/w3c-pointerevents/compare/fix-crlf...RByers:touchaction-directions?diff=split&name=touchaction-directions 15:18:08 Left click then right click does: pointerdown button=0 buttons=1, pointermove button=2 buttons=3 15:18:22 AB: what do people think; have folks reviewed the proposal? Seems to me that Rick should submit a PR to w3c/pointerevents. 15:18:39 It's the value of 'button' on the pointermove that's currently unspecified (not inherited from the MouseEvents spec as the rest of button/buttons are). 15:18:59 RB: I haven't submitted a PR yet because I need the LF issue fixed first 15:19:03 AB: oh, ok 15:19:27 RB: would like to get feedback on the non-trivial issues 15:19:35 JR: read the spec text; seemed good to me 15:19:51 … but don't think we should do pan-* re the documentation 15:20:10 … think the more specificity would be better 15:20:38 RB: ok; I'll make that change 15:21:06 … not sure about the grammar 15:21:15 … I opted for the minimal grammar 15:21:39 … but I don't know if permissive or more restrictive is better 15:21:47 JR: need to be consistent 15:22:09 RB: should I be consistent with the spec or IE? 15:22:35 JR: with IE can do pan-x, pan-y, pinchzoom 15:22:47 … and I think the current spec does not permit that 15:23:12 … Think the PE spec needs to support this 15:23:54 … So pan-up and pan-down not possible with pan-y, right? 15:23:57 RB: correct 15:24:19 … shouldn't allow pan-down and pan-y because that is redundant 15:24:29 JR: I think what you have looks correct 15:24:55 RB: I think this is a simpler way to spec what we want 15:24:58 JR: looks good 15:25:22 RB: I combined another change re coordinate space 15:25:35 … added a sentence to state screen coords are being used 15:25:42 … is that OK? 15:25:45 JR: yes 15:25:57 … but last sentence doesn't look quite right 15:27:02 … I need to view the proposal v-a-v our gesture system 15:27:18 … if just have pan-right, can I undo the gesture i.e. pull it back to left? 15:27:39 RB: once scroll started, can go back even if moving in the reverse direction is not allowed 15:27:51 +Matt_Brubeck 15:27:52 … need to be able to undo 15:28:02 Present+ Matt_Brubeck 15:28:27 RB: we can define what happens at and after the start 15:28:35 … can go back/reverse 15:28:41 … but can't change direction 15:29:17 … tried to capture the various scenarios 15:29:23 s/change direction/change dimension/ 15:29:41 JR: last sentence needs some work 15:30:06 RB: [ makes a proposal to update the text to address JR's concern ] 15:30:25 JR: would be good if we could proto this with JS 15:30:35 … want to make sure the edge cases still work 15:30:57 RB: think this is simple enough to impl to just go ahead and implement in Chrome 15:31:08 … but will do so behind a flag 15:31:14 … want to ship in Chrome 45 15:31:27 … but if we don't have sufficient data, can back off of that 15:31:57 AV: if you can give more data re shipping that would be helpful 15:32:09 RB: you mean PE in general or touch-action? 15:32:16 AV: Pointer Events 15:32:25 RB: I don't have any new info re schedule 15:32:43 AV: ok, please let us know when you have more data to share 15:32:45 RB: ok 15:33:16 JR: ok, so just want to make sure we do some experimenting before he make it part of the REC 15:33:19 We have use cases from all the native iOS apps (as of the time of the writing) for touch action here: http://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/TouchAction 15:33:23 RB: that sounds tood 15:33:33 s/tood/good/ 15:34:00 RB: there's also some text about nearest ancestor 15:34:09 … think that text isn't correct 15:34:55 JR: I'll need to look at the text 15:35:08 … oh, in the definition of pan-x 15:35:23 RB: [ reads defn of pan-x ] 15:36:24 … think the defn is not consistent with the proc model below 15:36:45 JR: so if have vert scroller and then horiz one above it? 15:36:50 RB: yes 15:37:06 JR: ok, I'll take a look at that v-a-v clarifying 15:37:40 … but your proposal looks ok (but need to check our impls) 15:38:25 RB: pull-to-refresh to work with PE requires t-a pan-down 15:39:04 … that behaviour (f.ex. twitter) a bit more common than carousel example 15:39:21 JR: we can have both examples 15:39:31 … need to make sure they both work 15:39:41 RB: ok, I'll update my PR and submit it 15:39:54 Topic: Non scroll blocking wheel-even listeners 15:40:14 AB: on April 16 Rick sent an "Non-scroll-blocking wheel events listeners / relationship to PEWG?" email  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0042.html and currently, there have been no replies. 15:40:22 AB: Rick asks "is there interest/feedback from this group, or discuss only on www-dom?" and he listed three options to address the issue. 15:40:35 RB: Olli replied today 15:41:06 OP: would need 4 params to event listener might work 15:41:12 JR: I'll reply on the list 15:41:28 JR: any feedback from you? 15:41:49 s/JR: I'll reply/RB: I'll reply/ 15:41:58 s/JR: any feedback/RB: any feedback/ 15:42:26 JR: agree there is a problem 15:42:48 … most cases wheel event uses default 15:43:00 … not much gesture recongnition there 15:43:40 RB: anecdotally, know of at least framework using wheel 15:44:50 [ Scribe notes some dialogue between JR and RB missing … ] 15:45:19 RB: touch-action works for PE because they are async 15:45:37 … in wheel case, events are typicall sync 15:45:56 … don't think a CSS property is sufficient 15:46:10 JR: need to think about this and continue discussion on the list 15:46:27 RB: I don't care much about wheel events scrolling perf 15:46:42 … but it is related to other probls that are high priority 15:47:11 … would be good if PointerEvents scenario is consistent with other events 15:47:32 JR: don't see this as a huge prior 15:47:39 s/prior/priority 15:47:45 … want to keep discussing this 15:48:22 RB: missing capability is how to balance scroll performance and functionality 15:48:39 s/how to/how developers/ 15:49:35 JR: somewhat related to track pad issues 15:50:49 AB: let's continue this discussion on the list 15:50:55 Topic: AoB 15:51:03 AB: Doug, what's the status of the PEWG extension to the end of 2015? 15:51:13 DS: it's in PLH's hands 15:51:27 smaug: Sorry I kind of brushed off your response - your audio was REALLY hard to follow. I think I got the gist and I agree we should continue discussion on the list. 15:51:35 DS: no need to worry 15:52:29 DS: re the errata, we talked about the location of the errata and we agreed with that location 15:52:36 https://specs.webplatform.org/ 15:52:39 rbyers: nm. perhaps something to do with this hotel network. atm in Mountain View 15:52:57 asir has joined #pointerevents 15:54:11 JR: how do we want to handle errata for v1? 15:54:17 … do we patch the v1 spec? 15:54:40 … do we wipe the changes section in the v2 spec and then have the errata point to the v2 spec? 15:55:13 DS: I was addressing Art's Q about touch-events 15:55:34 JR: ok; that location is ok with me for PE errata 15:55:50 … I don't think a wiki for errata is a good idea 15:55:54 DS: agree 15:56:44 JR: do you want to help editing? 15:56:47 RB: sure 15:57:40 AB: congratulations to Rick, a new co-Editor for the Pointer Events spec 15:59:14 JR: for non-editorial changes, Editors can of course create a PR and let other Editors look at the PR before merging 15:59:33 RB: sounds good; I'd probably do that anyway 16:00:07 AB: all PRs should be auto-email'd to the list 16:00:17 -Doug_Schepers 16:00:18 - +1.571.426.aaaa 16:00:20 -rbyers 16:00:20 AB: anything else for today? 16:00:21 -Olli_Pettay 16:00:23 -Scott_Gonzalez 16:00:24 [ Nothing ] 16:00:30 AB: meeting adjourned 16:00:31 -jrossi 16:00:32 -Matt_Brubeck 16:00:36 RRSAgent, makeminutes 16:00:36 I'm logging. I don't understand 'makeminutes', ArtB. Try /msg RRSAgent help 16:00:39 -ArtB 16:00:41 RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended 16:00:41 Attendees were +1.571.426.aaaa, ArtB, Scott_Gonzalez, rbyers, Olli_Pettay, jrossi, Doug_Schepers, Matt_Brubeck 16:04:23 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:04:23 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:04:49 RRSAgent, make log Public 16:05:09 Chair: ArtB 16:05:17 RRSAgent, make minutes 16:05:17 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB 16:06:32 tdresser has joined #pointerevents 16:12:43 zakim, bye 16:12:43 Zakim has left #pointerevents 16:12:50 rrsagent, bye 16:12:50 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-actions.rdf : 16:12:50 ACTION: Jacob to merge PR#5 [1] 16:12:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-08-09 16:12:50 ACTION: submit a PR for issue #4 [2] 16:12:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-16-50 16:12:50 ACTION: jacob submit a PR for issue #4 [3] 16:12:50 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-pointerevents-irc#T15-17-02