18:55:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:55:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-irc
18:55:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:55:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:55:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:55:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 5 minutes
18:55:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:55:14 <trackbot> Date: 21 April 2015
18:55:27 <clown> agenda: this
18:55:37 <clown> agenda+ All:  Create actions for mapping @aria-placeholder.
18:55:47 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
18:55:57 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1279: (Rich) Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis.
18:56:12 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:56:20 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup.
18:56:28 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1409: (Joanie) Monitor progress of bug against atk in gnome's bugzilla requesting new position, level, and other api be added.
18:56:38 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1585: (Cynthia) Add content for UIA features to (Jason's) section on AAPI differences.
18:56:44 <clown> agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:56:50 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:57:23 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:57:30 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:57:38 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:57:38 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:57:45 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:57:45 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:58:52 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:00:50 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:00:57 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/21-aapi-minutes.html clown
19:02:19 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:07:29 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:07:51 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:10:36 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:11:39 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
19:11:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "All:  Create actions for mapping @aria-placeholder." taken up [from clown]
19:12:03 <joanie> JS: There's new text for aria-placeholder in the spec. We now need to put it in the mapping guide.
19:12:10 <joanie> RS: In name computation or... ?
19:12:15 <joanie> JS: We'll get to that.
19:12:33 <clown> action:  Joanie to propose ATK/AT-SPI mappings for aria-placeholder.
19:12:33 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1619 - Propose atk/at-spi mappings for aria-placeholder. [on Joanmarie Diggs - due 2015-04-28].
19:12:37 <joanie> JS: Shall I give the action to Joanie for ATK/AT-SPI2 mappings for aria-placeholder?
19:12:45 <clown> action-1619?
19:12:45 <trackbot> action-1619 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Propose atk/at-spi mappings for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:12:45 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1619
19:12:51 <joanie> JS: Due date?
19:12:54 <joanie> JD: One week.
19:13:04 <joanie> JS: I can do the same for Cynthia.
19:13:14 <clown> action: Cynthia to propose UIA Express and UIA mappings for aria-placeholder.
19:13:14 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1620 - Propose uia express and uia mappings for aria-placeholder. [on Cynthia Shelly - due 2015-04-28].
19:14:23 <clown> action:  Joseph to ask Cynthia if UIA Express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the UIA Express column in the mapping spec.
19:14:23 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1621 - Ask cynthia if uia express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the uia express column in the mapping spec. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-04-28].
19:14:32 <clown> action-1620?
19:14:32 <trackbot> action-1620 -- Cynthia Shelly to Propose uia express and uia mappings for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:14:32 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1620
19:14:59 <joanie> RS: Next time Cynthia is on the call, ask her about the status for UIA Express.
19:15:06 <clown> action-1621
19:15:06 <trackbot> action-1621 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Ask cynthia if uia express will be abandoned, and do we want to keep the uia express column in the mapping spec. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:15:06 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1621
19:16:20 <joanie> JS: Suggestions for whom I should give the IA2 job to? Alex?
19:16:59 <joanie> JS: The mapping for OS X is already done.
19:17:15 <joanie> JD: I would give the IA2 one to Alex.
19:17:20 <clown> action:  Alex to Propose MSAA + IA2 mapping for aria-placeholder.
19:17:20 <trackbot> Error finding 'Alex'. You can review and register nicknames at <https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/users>.
19:17:37 <clown> action:  surkov to Propose MSAA + IA2 mapping for aria-placeholder.
19:17:37 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1622 - Propose msaa + ia2 mapping for aria-placeholder. [on Alexander Surkov - due 2015-04-28].
19:17:42 <clown> action-1622
19:17:42 <trackbot> action-1622 -- Alexander Surkov to Propose msaa + ia2 mapping for aria-placeholder. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:17:42 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1622
19:18:33 <joanie> JS: And one final action for me to confirm with James Craig that the mapping is correct.
19:18:37 <clown> action:  Joseph to confirm with Jame Craig that the proper AXAPI mapping of aria-placeholder is AXPlaceholderValue.
19:18:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-1623 - Confirm with jame craig that the proper axapi mapping of aria-placeholder is axplaceholdervalue. [on Joseph Scheuhammer - due 2015-04-28].
19:18:48 <clown> action-1623?
19:18:48 <trackbot> action-1623 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Confirm with jame craig that the proper axapi mapping of aria-placeholder is axplaceholdervalue. -- due 2015-04-28 -- OPEN
19:18:48 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1623
19:19:50 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0039.html
19:19:53 <joanie> JS: Rich, I don't think this belongs in the name computation.
19:20:08 <joanie> JS: The email I wrote to this effect is at the mailing list linked above.
19:20:20 <joanie> JS: I think it should be mapped as a placeholder property.
19:20:29 <joanie> RS: You will need to get this coordinated with Steve.
19:20:53 <joanie> JS: And Steve had written back that nearly all the placeholders are used as names, so we might as well.
19:21:00 <joanie> RS: I understand Steve's point.
19:21:19 <joanie> JS: But I think the ATs are smart enough to handle this on their own.
19:21:39 <joanie> RS: What's wrong with falling back on placeholder?
19:22:03 <joanie> JS: I have no problem with that, but I think the AT should be doing the falling back; not the user agent.
19:22:31 <joanie> RS: I don't think ATs care; they just want to know what the name is.
19:22:38 <joanie> RS: To be honest, I agree with Steve.
19:23:00 <joanie> RS: But if you can convince the browser vendors to do it differently, that's alright by me.
19:23:11 <joanie> JS: Why wouldn't it be the platform people?
19:23:53 <joanie> RS: Doesn't it show up in the object attributes?
19:24:10 <joanie> JD: Yes
19:25:13 <joanie> RS: Alot of people, especially on mobile, uses placeholder for the label.
19:25:28 <joanie> JS: And AT can then use the placeholder text.
19:25:53 <joanie> RS: If you were an AT, why would you say absolutely nothing if you had a placeholder and you had no label?
19:26:09 <joanie> JS: If there was no label, I'd say the placehoder text.
19:27:47 <joanie> JD: Orca already uses placeholder and presents it.
19:27:57 <joanie> JS: I do this visually.
19:32:06 <joanie> (Some discussion about what Orca does)
19:32:33 <joanie> RS: If it's not in the name and it's not in the object attributes, it sounds like you may need to put both.
19:32:51 <joanie> JS: I'm hoping in response to the actions I just created that people will say we need a placeholder property.
19:33:06 <joanie> RS: I think you'll have to put it in the object attribute and also in the name computation.
19:33:21 <joanie> JS: I don't see why. Isn't the AT smart enough to do this?
19:34:52 <joanie> JS: There's a danger of it getting double-presented twice if ATs don't check to see if the name and placeholder are the same.
19:35:16 <joanie> RS: That makes sense, the double-speaking issue.
19:35:58 <joanie> JS: And to get around that, the ATs have to compare.
19:36:28 <joanie> JS: And if you have both aria-placeholder and a native one.... We can have a mismatch.
19:36:51 <joanie> RS: When following up with Steve, these issues would be worth mentioning.
19:37:51 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:37:51 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree." taken up [from clown]
19:38:00 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here.
19:38:04 <clown> action-842?
19:38:04 <trackbot> action-842 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree -- due 2015-03-31 -- OPEN
19:38:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/842
19:38:37 <joanie> JS: A long time ago someone suggested we should create a diagram showing the differences and similarities between the accessibility tree and DOM tree.
19:38:52 <joanie> JS: I will ping her to see what the status is.
19:39:39 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:39:39 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1279: (Rich) Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis." taken up [from clown]
19:39:52 <clown> action-1279?
19:39:52 <trackbot> action-1279 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Talk to mobile manufacturers about how to include their apis -- due 2013-10-25 -- OPEN
19:39:52 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1279
19:39:57 <joanie> JS: I think I had an action here, but I couldn't remember what it might be.
19:40:20 <joanie> JS: I'm supposed to write to Yura (the guy working on the firefox accessibility stuff for Android).
19:40:44 <joanie> RS: Do you get to see the iOS mappings in WebKit?
19:40:51 <joanie> JD: Yes functionally.
19:41:57 <clown> scribenick: clown
19:42:09 <clown> RS:  Whos should I talk to about iOS mappings?
19:42:15 <clown> JD:  James or Chris.
19:42:25 <clown> RS:  Does Chris work for Apple?
19:42:28 <clown> JD:  Yes.
19:44:02 <clown> RS:  Can I cc you?
19:44:06 <clown> JD:  Sure.
19:44:28 <clown> RS:  I will followup with Chris as part of this action.
19:44:55 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:45:02 <joanie> JS: I will follow up with Yura.
19:45:09 <joanie> JS: And CC you, Rich.
19:46:04 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:46:04 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
19:46:13 <joanie> JS: Another Cynthia item.
19:46:29 <joanie> JS: A test case for posinset and setsize when they are not all present.
19:46:40 <joanie> JS: We'll leave this one as-is until next week.
19:46:43 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:46:43 <Zakim> agendum 4 was just opened, joanie
19:46:51 <joanie> Zakim, close item 4
19:46:51 <Zakim> agendum 4, ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements., closed
19:46:53 <joanie> Zakim, next item
19:46:54 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
19:46:54 <Zakim> 5. ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup. [from clown]
19:46:54 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
19:47:04 <clown> ISSUE-700?
19:47:04 <trackbot> ISSUE-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
19:47:04 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
19:47:20 <joanie> RS: Are we back to this again?
19:47:25 <joanie> JS: It's never been resolved.
19:47:33 <joanie> JS: I did contact James Craig for his take on it.
19:48:04 <joanie> JS: I had asked what happens if the tbody is focusable/clickable and actually does something?
19:48:17 <joanie> JS: He responded that then we do not treat it as a table.
19:48:21 <joanie> JS: Which suprised me.
19:48:38 <joanie> JS: So I started making a test case with a table that has a focusable tbody.
19:48:49 <joanie> JS: I'm still working on it, but it's a train schedule.
19:49:12 <joanie> JS: And I needed the tbody elements for morning, midday, and evening
19:49:29 <joanie> JS: And they are clickable so the unwanted times can be hidden.
19:49:53 <joanie> JS: I looked at the result and it was still a table, but the tbody elements were not there.
19:50:06 <joanie> s/result/result in Safari/
19:50:14 <joanie> JS: So now I need to follow up with James.
19:50:25 <joanie> JS: Do you all think that's a legit use of tbody?
19:51:27 <joanie> JD: Why would it not be legit?
19:51:32 <joanie> JS: I think it is.
19:51:50 <joanie> JS: In the past we said they are not to be exposed unless they are focusable or otherwise interactive.
19:52:09 <clown> action-1544?
19:52:09 <trackbot> action-1544 -- Cynthia Shelly to Document rowgroup mappings for ie 11 for both uia express and uia -- due 2015-02-03 -- OPEN
19:52:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1544
19:52:20 <clown> action-1546?
19:52:20 <trackbot> action-1546 -- David Bolter to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for msaa/ia2 is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
19:52:20 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1546
19:56:14 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Apr/0042.html
19:56:41 <joanie> JS: That's (the above linked message) is the one.
19:57:04 <joanie> JS: (Reads from text in that message)
19:58:43 <joanie> JS: But I'm talking about a well-formed grid with interactive rowgroups, or in the case of tables interactive tbodys.
19:58:56 <joanie> JS: So I will follow up, posting my example.
19:59:07 <joanie> JS: And I'll make another one with rowgroup rather than tbody.
20:01:42 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:01:42 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:01:42 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:01:54 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop