15:00:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
15:00:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-irc
15:00:11 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log public
15:00:16 <ArtB> ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:21 <ArtB> Scribe: ArtB
15:00:22 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is here?
15:00:23 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft]
15:00:24 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm, trackbot
15:00:27 <jrossi2> jrossi2 has joined #pointerevents
15:00:29 <ArtB> Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference
15:00:29 <ArtB> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0003.html
15:00:44 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has joined #pointerevents
15:00:44 <Zakim> +Scott_Gonzalez
15:00:50 <jrossi2> I'll be a bin late... my MSFT credentials expired while on vacation #doh
15:01:12 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:01:13 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm calling in in a sec, but will mostly be on mute due to childminding
15:01:14 <smaug> Hello
15:01:24 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
15:01:24 <Zakim> +rbyers
15:01:24 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
15:01:32 <Zakim> +Art_Barstow
15:01:33 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:01:33 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:01:36 <rbyers> Zakim rbyers is Chrome_Team
15:01:45 <ArtB> zakim, who's here?
15:01:47 <rbyers> Zakim, rbyers is Chrome_Team
15:01:47 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, rbyers, Art_Barstow
15:01:47 <Zakim> On IRC I see patrick_h_lauke, jrossi2, RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm,
15:01:48 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:01:48 <Zakim> +Chrome_Team; got it
15:02:03 <rbyers> zakim, who's here
15:02:04 <Zakim> + +44.797.663.aaaa
15:02:04 <Zakim> rbyers, you need to end that query with '?'
15:02:09 <rbyers> zakim, who's here?
15:02:09 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, Chrome_Team, Art_Barstow, +44.797.663.aaaa
15:02:11 <Zakim> On IRC I see patrick_h_lauke, jrossi2, RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm,
15:02:11 <Zakim> ... trackbot
15:02:12 <patrick_h_lauke> zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:13 <Zakim> +patrick_h_lauke; got it
15:02:21 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
15:02:21 <rbyers> zakim, why are you a grammar nazi?
15:02:22 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, rbyers.
15:02:32 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm in
15:02:58 <Zakim> + +1.770.402.aabb
15:03:09 <jrossi2> Zakim, aabb is jrossi2
15:03:10 <Zakim> +jrossi2; got it
15:03:29 <ArtB> Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Asir_Vedamuthu, Scott_Gonzalex, Olli_Pettay, Rick_Byers, Tim_Dinlocker, Mustaq_Ahmed, Patrick_Lauke, Jacob_Rossi, Doug_Schepers
15:03:37 <ArtB> Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon
15:03:43 <rbyers> Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers
15:03:43 <Zakim> sorry, rbyers, I do not see a party named 'Rick_Byers'
15:03:55 <tdresser> s/Tim_Dinlocker/Tim_Dresser
15:03:56 <ArtB> Topic: Agree on Agenda
15:04:13 <ArtB> AB: yesterday, Jacob proposed a draft agenda and it looks good to me <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015AprJun/0002.html>. Any change requests?
15:04:48 <ArtB> [ None ]
15:04:52 <ArtB> Topic: Implementation Status
15:04:58 <ArtB> AB: besides Google's recent annoucement (f.ex. see <https://groups.google.com/a/chromium.org/forum/#!topic/blink-dev/ODWmcKNQl0I>), would like an update from Microsoft/Spartan and Mozilla.
15:05:08 <asir> asir has joined #pointerevents
15:05:52 <ArtB> RB: my blink-dev thread didn't include a lot of context
15:06:01 <ArtB> … so I can give some context now
15:06:11 <ArtB> … and take feedback too.
15:06:23 <rbyers> RB: 4 main reasons reasons
15:06:23 <rbyers> ... 1. interoperability ecosystem: interop benefit of focusing on touch events was no longer outweighing the costs (including partner/developer good will)
15:08:09 <shepazu> q+
15:11:01 <smaug> (there is some old CSS proposal for tactile feedback)
15:13:09 <asir> q+
15:13:18 <ArtB> ack shepazu
15:13:32 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:13:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
15:13:43 <patrick_h_lauke> so, for first time, apple now have a multi-input type scenario and realising it's potentially giving problems...hmmm
15:13:55 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:18:30 <rbyers> … 2. scroll-start performance: blink's focus in 2014 was appy sites where a single UI thread was preferable (lots of touchmove driven effects interacting with animation etc.).  In 2015 we've shifted focus back to sites that depend on threaded scrolling.
15:18:41 <rbyers> s/... 2/RB: 2/
15:20:34 <rbyers> RB: 3. richness concerns being addressed: scroll customization at houdini is the right path for p2r.  Touch-action extensions as a tactical mitigation
15:21:30 <ArtB> … (p2r = PullToRefresh)
15:23:31 <rbyers> RB: 4. compat issues being addressed: mouse event model for touch
15:25:29 <ArtB> AB: thanks Rick. Does anyone have any Qs or comments about these 4 points?
15:25:47 <ArtB> AV: re point #4, is there something specific?
15:26:05 <ArtB> RB: IE has made some compat changes
15:26:14 <ArtB> … we need to tighten the spec
15:26:38 <asir> q+
15:27:48 <patrick_h_lauke> new spartan behavior: see last row in http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/#desktop-touchscreen-events
15:27:55 <ArtB> JR: in a future Spartan build there will be a flag to turn on/off the diff models (touch and pointer)
15:28:01 <ArtB> … we are still collecting data
15:28:22 <patrick_h_lauke> compared with IE11 which sends mouse compat events interleaved with their pointer equivalent
15:29:08 <ArtB> … and the group still needs to work out the details
15:29:31 <ArtB> RB: need to know where we have good interop and then update the spec to address the problem areas
15:29:38 <ArtB> ack asir
15:30:12 <ArtB> DS: would you please explain Intent to Implement vs. Intent to Ship?
15:30:37 <ArtB> RB: in Blink process, don't do I2Ship until code is done or very close to done
15:30:49 <rbyers> Blink process: http://www.chromium.org/blink
15:30:52 <ArtB> … thus requires lots of impl work
15:31:00 <rbyers> http://www.chromium.org/blink#launch-process
15:31:28 <ArtB> DS: so does I2I kind of imply a future I2Ship?
15:31:58 <ArtB> RB: yes, normally that is the case
15:32:37 <ArtB> … the announcement serves the purposes to gather lots of broad feedback
15:33:43 <ArtB> … some people will evaluate the impl from a performance perspective
15:33:49 <ArtB> … and certainly interop
15:34:06 <ArtB> AV: is there any target for shipping?
15:34:09 <ArtB> RB: too soon to say
15:34:28 <ArtB> … we do a quarterly planning process
15:34:36 <ArtB> … and a lot of that is shifting to be public
15:35:05 <shepazu> q+
15:35:10 <ArtB> … now doing Q2 planning; I can share some of the informaiton
15:35:27 <ArtB> … expecting this to be multiple quarters
15:35:37 <ArtB> AV: is there a link to the quarterly info?
15:35:46 <ArtB> RB: this is the first time we are doing this
15:35:58 <ArtB> … nothing available yet but I'll let you know when it is
15:36:27 <ArtB> DS: will there be something at upcoming Google I/O?
15:36:47 <ArtB> RB: no, unfortunately I don't think we will be far enough for this year
15:36:57 <ArtB> … clear benefit for performance
15:37:03 <ArtB> … as well as stylus support
15:37:45 <ArtB> … This work is important but we won't rush it.
15:37:59 <ArtB> … We need balance a lot of priorities.
15:38:08 <ArtB> s/need balance/need to balance/
15:38:32 <ArtB> … Getting PE working for mouse events in WK is going to be a lot of work.
15:38:57 <ArtB> … Must be careful that every change doesn't break some web site expecting WK behavior
15:39:29 <ArtB> … Lots of iteration
15:40:03 <asir> Thank you Rick for sharing these info
15:40:17 <ArtB> JR: Spartan has PE support now
15:40:28 <ArtB> … including PE Constructor (which isn't in IE11)
15:40:58 <ArtB> … we have some flags included
15:41:45 <ArtB> … Want to align our impl with other browsers like Blink and Safari
15:41:56 <ArtB> … f.ex. pan and some other TE model changes
15:43:07 <ArtB> … [ Jacob provides some other implementation details ]
15:44:07 <ArtB> … Also enabled gesture based mouse model (up, down, etc.)
15:45:41 <ArtB> … Still collecting lots of data
15:46:15 <ArtB> … Going forward we will work on issues like those Rick identified
15:46:26 <ArtB> … think they are all solvable with PE
15:46:33 <patrick_h_lauke> jacob, would be happy/interested to help test/see some of the example sites that break
15:46:41 <ArtB> AB: are these details documented in Public?
15:46:49 <jrossi> http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2015/02/24/pointer-events-w3c-recommendation-interoperable-touch-and-removing-the-dreaded-300ms-tap-delay.aspx
15:47:01 <ArtB> JR: yes, http://blogs.msdn.com/b/ie/archive/2015/02/24/pointer-events-w3c-recommendation-interoperable-touch-and-removing-the-dreaded-300ms-tap-delay.aspx
15:47:36 <ArtB> AB: anything Matt or Olli re implementation?
15:48:01 <ArtB> MB: think the blink-dev annoucement will make this more urgent
15:48:17 <ArtB> OP: think PE will help with some scrolling issues
15:48:37 <mbrubeck> Implementation work on Firefox/Gecko is continuing apace
15:48:45 <ArtB> Topic: v.Next Features and v1 Errata
15:48:57 <ArtB> AB: we have the v.next feature list <https://www.w3.org/wiki/PointerEvents/UseCasesAndRequirements#Requirements:_Pointer_Events_v.Next_Specification>. There is also one open bug <http://tinyurl.com/Bugs-PointerEvents>.
15:49:11 <smaug> s/OP: think PE will help with some scrolling issues/Scrolling implementation consolidation will help to support pointer events on all the platforms/
15:49:21 <ArtB> AB: Jacob included 3 items in his draft agenda: 1) "up/down/left/right" pan values for touch-action; 2) implicit/explicit capture 3) compatibility mouse events model. Any comments on these items or proposals for additional items?
15:49:36 <ArtB> ... It would probably be good for us to get consensus on the scope of v.next but it might be a bit premature right now.
15:50:28 <ArtB> JR: with respect to the charter, I think the scope is the same
15:50:50 <ArtB> … I don't think we or Rick mentioned anything beyond the current charter
15:51:22 <ArtB> … the items Rick identified should be on the table
15:51:59 <ArtB> RB: for hit testing, implicit vs explicit capture; also over/enter/leave during capture
15:52:20 <ArtB> … capture behavior must be well spec'ed
15:52:26 <rbyers> This thread: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pointer-events/2015JanMar/0041.html
15:52:53 <rbyers> ... we want the default behavior not to incur per-move hit-test costs
15:53:52 <ArtB> RB: I've talked to a lot of people including Android team and think we've identified the main issues
15:54:48 <ArtB> AB: anything else from Mozilla's perspective or have Rick and Jacob identified the main issues?
15:55:13 <ArtB> JR: given the items, we might need more than 6 months
15:55:28 <ArtB> … for a v2 spec, 6 months is probably not enough
15:55:46 <ArtB> RB: will definitely need some compat data for some issues
15:56:08 <ArtB> … it's likely impl work won't be complete within 6 months
15:56:18 <patrick_h_lauke> i've got a very happy screaming 2.5 year old running around, so probably missed if it's been talked about, but: what was the decision about mouse compat events and when they fire (in the PE spec vs in real life Spartan)? do we plan to already work on errata/update for PE spec? is this for v2/v.next?
15:56:41 <ArtB> DS: then need to think about a 6-month extension to a new charter that extends 12-24 months
15:57:37 <ArtB> JR: I am indifferent re extension vs. new charter
15:58:04 <ArtB> … I think the charter itself is the same, just need to add v.next/v2
15:58:33 <ArtB> DS: we can figure out the charter parts
15:58:51 <ArtB> … more important to do the right thing re the spec
15:59:12 <ArtB> … we will get a 6-month extension
16:00:35 <ArtB> AB: I agree with Doug re the charter -> let him and me figure out the best way and keep the group focused on addressing the technical issues
16:02:03 <ArtB> AB: any thoughts on how to move the work forward?
16:02:11 <ArtB> … meetings, PRs, …?
16:02:28 <ArtB> JR: think a next step is the up/down issue
16:02:35 <ArtB> … would like to move to github
16:03:02 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
16:03:07 <ArtB> … re TE compat, might be helpful to have a f2f meeting for discussions
16:03:30 <ArtB> RB: agree; let's get PE spec on Github and start with the easy issues
16:03:40 <ArtB> Topic: AoB
16:03:48 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
16:03:58 <ArtB> AB: let's take the technical discussion to the mail lsit
16:04:16 <ArtB> ACTION: barstow move the PE spec to Github (with Jacob and Rick)
16:04:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-149 - Move the pe spec to github (with jacob and rick) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2015-04-14].
16:04:25 <ArtB> AB: meeting adjourned
16:04:26 <Zakim> -Scott_Gonzalez
16:04:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:04:34 <Zakim> -patrick_h_lauke
16:04:36 <Zakim> -jrossi2
16:04:38 <Zakim> -Chrome_Team
16:04:42 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:04:42 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:04:57 <patrick_h_lauke> thank you, will review transcript as jack gave me zero chance to actually listen ;)
16:06:35 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents
16:18:46 <Zakim> -Art_Barstow
16:18:48 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:18:48 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
16:18:48 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, Art_Barstow, Chrome_Team, +44.797.663.aaaa, patrick_h_lauke, Doug_Schepers, +1.770.402.aabb, jrossi2
16:45:37 <ArtB> zakim, bye
16:45:37 <Zakim> Zakim has left #pointerevents
16:45:58 <ArtB> Chair: ArtB
16:46:26 <ArtB> RRSAgent, make minutes
16:46:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-minutes.html ArtB
16:46:43 <ArtB> RRSAgent, bye
16:46:43 <RRSAgent> I see 1 open action item saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-actions.rdf :
16:46:43 <RRSAgent> ACTION: barstow move the PE spec to Github (with Jacob and Rick) [1]
16:46:43 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/04/07-pointerevents-irc#T16-04-16