IRC log of pointerevents on 2015-04-07

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:00:05 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #pointerevents
15:00:05 [RRSAgent]
logging to
15:00:11 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log public
15:00:16 [ArtB]
ScribeNick: ArtB
15:00:21 [ArtB]
Scribe: ArtB
15:00:22 [mbrubeck]
Zakim, who is here?
15:00:23 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft]
15:00:24 [Zakim]
On IRC I see RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm, trackbot
15:00:27 [jrossi2]
jrossi2 has joined #pointerevents
15:00:29 [ArtB]
Meeting: Pointer Events Working Group Voice Conference
15:00:29 [ArtB]
15:00:44 [patrick_h_lauke]
patrick_h_lauke has joined #pointerevents
15:00:44 [Zakim]
15:00:50 [jrossi2]
I'll be a bin late... my MSFT credentials expired while on vacation #doh
15:01:12 [Zakim]
15:01:13 [patrick_h_lauke]
i'm calling in in a sec, but will mostly be on mute due to childminding
15:01:14 [smaug]
15:01:24 [smaug]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
15:01:24 [Zakim]
15:01:24 [Zakim]
+Olli_Pettay; got it
15:01:32 [Zakim]
15:01:33 [smaug]
Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
15:01:33 [Zakim]
ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
15:01:36 [rbyers]
Zakim rbyers is Chrome_Team
15:01:45 [ArtB]
zakim, who's here?
15:01:47 [rbyers]
Zakim, rbyers is Chrome_Team
15:01:47 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, rbyers, Art_Barstow
15:01:47 [Zakim]
On IRC I see patrick_h_lauke, jrossi2, RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm,
15:01:48 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:01:48 [Zakim]
+Chrome_Team; got it
15:02:03 [rbyers]
zakim, who's here
15:02:04 [Zakim]
+ +44.797.663.aaaa
15:02:04 [Zakim]
rbyers, you need to end that query with '?'
15:02:09 [rbyers]
zakim, who's here?
15:02:09 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, Chrome_Team, Art_Barstow, +44.797.663.aaaa
15:02:11 [Zakim]
On IRC I see patrick_h_lauke, jrossi2, RRSAgent, tdresser, Zakim, smaug, AutomatedTester, ArtB, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mbrubeck, rbyers, mustaq, sangwhan, slightlyoff, dfreedm,
15:02:11 [Zakim]
... trackbot
15:02:12 [patrick_h_lauke]
zakim, aaaa is me
15:02:13 [Zakim]
+patrick_h_lauke; got it
15:02:21 [Zakim]
15:02:21 [rbyers]
zakim, why are you a grammar nazi?
15:02:22 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, rbyers.
15:02:32 [patrick_h_lauke]
i'm in
15:02:58 [Zakim]
+ +1.770.402.aabb
15:03:09 [jrossi2]
Zakim, aabb is jrossi2
15:03:10 [Zakim]
+jrossi2; got it
15:03:29 [ArtB]
Present: Art_Barstow, Matt_Brubeck, Asir_Vedamuthu, Scott_Gonzalex, Olli_Pettay, Rick_Byers, Tim_Dinlocker, Mustaq_Ahmed, Patrick_Lauke, Jacob_Rossi, Doug_Schepers
15:03:37 [ArtB]
Regrets: Sangwhan_Moon
15:03:43 [rbyers]
Zakim, nick rbyers is Rick_Byers
15:03:43 [Zakim]
sorry, rbyers, I do not see a party named 'Rick_Byers'
15:03:55 [tdresser]
15:03:56 [ArtB]
Topic: Agree on Agenda
15:04:13 [ArtB]
AB: yesterday, Jacob proposed a draft agenda and it looks good to me <>. Any change requests?
15:04:48 [ArtB]
[ None ]
15:04:52 [ArtB]
Topic: Implementation Status
15:04:58 [ArtB]
AB: besides Google's recent annoucement (f.ex. see <!topic/blink-dev/ODWmcKNQl0I>), would like an update from Microsoft/Spartan and Mozilla.
15:05:08 [asir]
asir has joined #pointerevents
15:05:52 [ArtB]
RB: my blink-dev thread didn't include a lot of context
15:06:01 [ArtB]
… so I can give some context now
15:06:11 [ArtB]
… and take feedback too.
15:06:23 [rbyers]
RB: 4 main reasons reasons
15:06:23 [rbyers]
... 1. interoperability ecosystem: interop benefit of focusing on touch events was no longer outweighing the costs (including partner/developer good will)
15:08:09 [shepazu]
15:11:01 [smaug]
(there is some old CSS proposal for tactile feedback)
15:13:09 [asir]
15:13:18 [ArtB]
ack shepazu
15:13:32 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
15:13:32 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
15:13:43 [patrick_h_lauke]
so, for first time, apple now have a multi-input type scenario and realising it's potentially giving problems...hmmm
15:13:55 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make log Public
15:18:30 [rbyers]
… 2. scroll-start performance: blink's focus in 2014 was appy sites where a single UI thread was preferable (lots of touchmove driven effects interacting with animation etc.). In 2015 we've shifted focus back to sites that depend on threaded scrolling.
15:18:41 [rbyers]
s/... 2/RB: 2/
15:20:34 [rbyers]
RB: 3. richness concerns being addressed: scroll customization at houdini is the right path for p2r. Touch-action extensions as a tactical mitigation
15:21:30 [ArtB]
… (p2r = PullToRefresh)
15:23:31 [rbyers]
RB: 4. compat issues being addressed: mouse event model for touch
15:25:29 [ArtB]
AB: thanks Rick. Does anyone have any Qs or comments about these 4 points?
15:25:47 [ArtB]
AV: re point #4, is there something specific?
15:26:05 [ArtB]
RB: IE has made some compat changes
15:26:14 [ArtB]
… we need to tighten the spec
15:26:38 [asir]
15:27:48 [patrick_h_lauke]
new spartan behavior: see last row in
15:27:55 [ArtB]
JR: in a future Spartan build there will be a flag to turn on/off the diff models (touch and pointer)
15:28:01 [ArtB]
… we are still collecting data
15:28:22 [patrick_h_lauke]
compared with IE11 which sends mouse compat events interleaved with their pointer equivalent
15:29:08 [ArtB]
… and the group still needs to work out the details
15:29:31 [ArtB]
RB: need to know where we have good interop and then update the spec to address the problem areas
15:29:38 [ArtB]
ack asir
15:30:12 [ArtB]
DS: would you please explain Intent to Implement vs. Intent to Ship?
15:30:37 [ArtB]
RB: in Blink process, don't do I2Ship until code is done or very close to done
15:30:49 [rbyers]
Blink process:
15:30:52 [ArtB]
… thus requires lots of impl work
15:31:00 [rbyers]
15:31:28 [ArtB]
DS: so does I2I kind of imply a future I2Ship?
15:31:58 [ArtB]
RB: yes, normally that is the case
15:32:37 [ArtB]
… the announcement serves the purposes to gather lots of broad feedback
15:33:43 [ArtB]
… some people will evaluate the impl from a performance perspective
15:33:49 [ArtB]
… and certainly interop
15:34:06 [ArtB]
AV: is there any target for shipping?
15:34:09 [ArtB]
RB: too soon to say
15:34:28 [ArtB]
… we do a quarterly planning process
15:34:36 [ArtB]
… and a lot of that is shifting to be public
15:35:05 [shepazu]
15:35:10 [ArtB]
… now doing Q2 planning; I can share some of the informaiton
15:35:27 [ArtB]
… expecting this to be multiple quarters
15:35:37 [ArtB]
AV: is there a link to the quarterly info?
15:35:46 [ArtB]
RB: this is the first time we are doing this
15:35:58 [ArtB]
… nothing available yet but I'll let you know when it is
15:36:27 [ArtB]
DS: will there be something at upcoming Google I/O?
15:36:47 [ArtB]
RB: no, unfortunately I don't think we will be far enough for this year
15:36:57 [ArtB]
… clear benefit for performance
15:37:03 [ArtB]
… as well as stylus support
15:37:45 [ArtB]
… This work is important but we won't rush it.
15:37:59 [ArtB]
… We need balance a lot of priorities.
15:38:08 [ArtB]
s/need balance/need to balance/
15:38:32 [ArtB]
… Getting PE working for mouse events in WK is going to be a lot of work.
15:38:57 [ArtB]
… Must be careful that every change doesn't break some web site expecting WK behavior
15:39:29 [ArtB]
… Lots of iteration
15:40:03 [asir]
Thank you Rick for sharing these info
15:40:17 [ArtB]
JR: Spartan has PE support now
15:40:28 [ArtB]
… including PE Constructor (which isn't in IE11)
15:40:58 [ArtB]
… we have some flags included
15:41:45 [ArtB]
… Want to align our impl with other browsers like Blink and Safari
15:41:56 [ArtB]
… f.ex. pan and some other TE model changes
15:43:07 [ArtB]
… [ Jacob provides some other implementation details ]
15:44:07 [ArtB]
… Also enabled gesture based mouse model (up, down, etc.)
15:45:41 [ArtB]
… Still collecting lots of data
15:46:15 [ArtB]
… Going forward we will work on issues like those Rick identified
15:46:26 [ArtB]
… think they are all solvable with PE
15:46:33 [patrick_h_lauke]
jacob, would be happy/interested to help test/see some of the example sites that break
15:46:41 [ArtB]
AB: are these details documented in Public?
15:46:49 [jrossi]
15:47:01 [ArtB]
JR: yes,
15:47:36 [ArtB]
AB: anything Matt or Olli re implementation?
15:48:01 [ArtB]
MB: think the blink-dev annoucement will make this more urgent
15:48:17 [ArtB]
OP: think PE will help with some scrolling issues
15:48:37 [mbrubeck]
Implementation work on Firefox/Gecko is continuing apace
15:48:45 [ArtB]
Topic: v.Next Features and v1 Errata
15:48:57 [ArtB]
AB: we have the feature list <>. There is also one open bug <>.
15:49:11 [smaug]
s/OP: think PE will help with some scrolling issues/Scrolling implementation consolidation will help to support pointer events on all the platforms/
15:49:21 [ArtB]
AB: Jacob included 3 items in his draft agenda: 1) "up/down/left/right" pan values for touch-action; 2) implicit/explicit capture 3) compatibility mouse events model. Any comments on these items or proposals for additional items?
15:49:36 [ArtB]
... It would probably be good for us to get consensus on the scope of but it might be a bit premature right now.
15:50:28 [ArtB]
JR: with respect to the charter, I think the scope is the same
15:50:50 [ArtB]
… I don't think we or Rick mentioned anything beyond the current charter
15:51:22 [ArtB]
… the items Rick identified should be on the table
15:51:59 [ArtB]
RB: for hit testing, implicit vs explicit capture; also over/enter/leave during capture
15:52:20 [ArtB]
… capture behavior must be well spec'ed
15:52:26 [rbyers]
This thread:
15:52:53 [rbyers]
... we want the default behavior not to incur per-move hit-test costs
15:53:52 [ArtB]
RB: I've talked to a lot of people including Android team and think we've identified the main issues
15:54:48 [ArtB]
AB: anything else from Mozilla's perspective or have Rick and Jacob identified the main issues?
15:55:13 [ArtB]
JR: given the items, we might need more than 6 months
15:55:28 [ArtB]
… for a v2 spec, 6 months is probably not enough
15:55:46 [ArtB]
RB: will definitely need some compat data for some issues
15:56:08 [ArtB]
… it's likely impl work won't be complete within 6 months
15:56:18 [patrick_h_lauke]
i've got a very happy screaming 2.5 year old running around, so probably missed if it's been talked about, but: what was the decision about mouse compat events and when they fire (in the PE spec vs in real life Spartan)? do we plan to already work on errata/update for PE spec? is this for v2/
15:56:41 [ArtB]
DS: then need to think about a 6-month extension to a new charter that extends 12-24 months
15:57:37 [ArtB]
JR: I am indifferent re extension vs. new charter
15:58:04 [ArtB]
… I think the charter itself is the same, just need to add
15:58:33 [ArtB]
DS: we can figure out the charter parts
15:58:51 [ArtB]
… more important to do the right thing re the spec
15:59:12 [ArtB]
… we will get a 6-month extension
16:00:35 [ArtB]
AB: I agree with Doug re the charter -> let him and me figure out the best way and keep the group focused on addressing the technical issues
16:02:03 [ArtB]
AB: any thoughts on how to move the work forward?
16:02:11 [ArtB]
… meetings, PRs, …?
16:02:28 [ArtB]
JR: think a next step is the up/down issue
16:02:35 [ArtB]
… would like to move to github
16:03:02 [Zakim]
16:03:07 [ArtB]
… re TE compat, might be helpful to have a f2f meeting for discussions
16:03:30 [ArtB]
RB: agree; let's get PE spec on Github and start with the easy issues
16:03:40 [ArtB]
Topic: AoB
16:03:48 [Zakim]
16:03:58 [ArtB]
AB: let's take the technical discussion to the mail lsit
16:04:16 [ArtB]
ACTION: barstow move the PE spec to Github (with Jacob and Rick)
16:04:17 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-149 - Move the pe spec to github (with jacob and rick) [on Arthur Barstow - due 2015-04-14].
16:04:25 [ArtB]
AB: meeting adjourned
16:04:26 [Zakim]
16:04:31 [Zakim]
16:04:34 [Zakim]
16:04:36 [Zakim]
16:04:38 [Zakim]
16:04:42 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:04:42 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
16:04:57 [patrick_h_lauke]
thank you, will review transcript as jack gave me zero chance to actually listen ;)
16:06:35 [patrick_h_lauke]
patrick_h_lauke has left #pointerevents
16:18:46 [Zakim]
16:18:48 [Zakim]
16:18:48 [Zakim]
RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
16:18:48 [Zakim]
Attendees were Matt_Brubeck, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, Olli_Pettay, Art_Barstow, Chrome_Team, +44.797.663.aaaa, patrick_h_lauke, Doug_Schepers, +1.770.402.aabb, jrossi2
16:45:37 [ArtB]
zakim, bye
16:45:37 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #pointerevents
16:45:58 [ArtB]
Chair: ArtB
16:46:26 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, make minutes
16:46:26 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate ArtB
16:46:43 [ArtB]
RRSAgent, bye
16:46:43 [RRSAgent]
I see 1 open action item saved in :
16:46:43 [RRSAgent]
ACTION: barstow move the PE spec to Github (with Jacob and Rick) [1]
16:46:43 [RRSAgent]
recorded in