17:54:05 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #logo
17:54:05 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/03-logo-irc
17:55:15 <alex_antennahouse> alex_antennahouse has joined #logo
17:57:50 <Zakim> Team_(logo)18:00Z has now started
17:57:57 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
17:58:53 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:58:57 <Zakim> +??P2
17:59:29 <alex_antennahouse> I'm ipcaller
17:59:42 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
18:00:20 <Zakim> +plinss
18:00:21 <shepazu> Zakim, ??P2 is MichaelN
18:00:22 <Zakim> +MichaelN; got it
18:01:10 <shepazu> Zakim, IPcaller is alex_antennahouse
18:01:10 <Zakim> +alex_antennahouse; got it
18:01:23 <Michael_Nieling> Michael_Nieling has joined #logo
18:01:56 <Zakim> +koalie
18:02:05 <koalie> koalie has joined #logo
18:02:47 <Zakim> +[Apple]
18:02:55 <dsinger> dsinger has joined #logo
18:06:39 <shepazu> https://join.me/ocupopscreen
18:09:47 <koalie> scribenick: koalie
18:10:07 <koalie> Doug: We had some ideas, learned good and bad lessons from the HTML5 logo
18:10:12 <koalie> ... pretty successful
18:10:20 <koalie> ... we didn't have the stakeholders at the start
18:10:24 <koalie> ... that's a downside
18:10:38 <koalie> ... so we wanted to get you involved early on
18:10:55 <koalie> ... Assets around the release; webpage, how to use
18:11:00 <koalie> ... we want to do that again this time
18:11:14 <leaverou> leaverou has joined #logo
18:11:16 <koalie> ... we had a gallery "send us how you use it" but that didn't work so well
18:11:23 <koalie> ... we'll make a little video
18:11:32 <koalie> ... about what went into the process
18:11:40 <koalie> ... a shorter version of the presentation you are about to see
18:11:47 <koalie> ... in terms of timing of release:
18:12:01 <koalie> ... I don't know if there is a CSS milestone, anything relevant
18:12:08 <koalie> ... I invite you to suggest things
18:12:26 <koalie> ... failing that, I'd like to reveal that at the W3C W3Conf in July
18:12:36 <koalie> ... it will be live-streamed
18:12:51 <Zakim> +Lea
18:13:03 <koalie> ... it would be great if said milestone could be met at this time
18:13:07 <koalie> [Lea arrives]
18:13:27 <koalie> Doug: reminder:
18:13:36 <koalie> ... we want a chance to refine this
18:13:45 <koalie> ... and to present it to the world in one sweep of the hand
18:13:53 <koalie> ... so please, keep this under embargo
18:14:09 <koalie> ... Leaks would spoil the majesty of the thing
18:14:28 <koalie> [Michael proceeds with https://join.me/ocupopscreen ]
18:14:56 <shepazu> q+
18:15:29 <koalie> Michael: I'm going to enlist your help on strategy
18:15:43 <koalie> ... how to make it accepted universally, and how to make it evolve
18:16:08 <koalie> ... we want the same enthusiasm around the HTML5 logo which people could remix
18:17:04 <koalie> ... I'm hear to propose solution
18:17:08 <koalie> ... what best communicates CSS
18:17:24 <koalie> Zakim, who's on the phone?
18:17:24 <Zakim> On the phone I see Doug_Schepers, alex_antennahouse, MichaelN, [IPcaller.a], plinss, koalie, [Apple], Lea
18:17:34 <koalie> Zakim, [ is dsinger
18:17:34 <Zakim> sorry, koalie, I do not recognize a party named '['
18:17:45 <koalie> Zakim, [A is dsinger
18:17:45 <Zakim> +dsinger; got it
18:18:24 <renoirb> Zakim, ??P2 is Renoirb
18:18:24 <Zakim> I already had ??P2 as MichaelN, renoirb
18:18:31 <koalie> Michael: Keywords about CSS
18:18:48 <Zakim> + +1.617.583.aaaa
18:19:39 <koalie> Michael: CSS == creativity, execution on the Web
18:20:03 <koalie> Zakim, [I is renoirb
18:20:03 <Zakim> +renoirb; got it
18:20:27 <koalie> Michael: It's evolving, it has improved, it's modular, etc.
18:20:37 <koalie> ... it's a foundation on which powerful tools are being build
18:20:44 <koalie> s/build/built/
18:20:52 <koalie> Michael: Moving from words to images...
18:21:35 <koalie> ... in logo design we aim for instant reaction to it and understanding of it
18:21:45 <koalie> ... one way it to leverage concept words
18:21:51 <koalie> s/way it/way is/
18:23:47 <koalie> ... We produced a hundred sketches
18:23:53 <koalie> ... moving on to solutions
18:24:00 <koalie> ... here are the ideas that didn't make the cut
18:24:27 <koalie> ... We wanted to convey the reality of CSS
18:26:00 <koalie> ... we played on promises of functionalities, the shape of CSS code might be,
18:26:10 <koalie> ... layers, modularity
18:26:27 <koalie> ... we played with how to incorporate those
18:26:49 <koalie> Michael: We wanted to highlight the sophistication of CSS
18:27:09 <koalie> ... Also we wanted it to work well in colour and in single-colour
18:27:39 <koalie> ... Early on, we wanted something more stylish than the HTML5 logo
18:28:05 <koalie> ... This is a C and S, it looks like an ampersand
18:28:16 <koalie> ... but you don't see the meaning right away
18:28:32 <koalie> ... other ideas on CSS monogram in the shape of cascading water
18:28:47 <koalie> ... more shapes
18:29:20 <koalie> Michael: But all those didn't convey the power, depth, duality of styling of CSS
18:30:51 <koalie> ... we played then we 6-edge shapes
18:31:03 <koalie> ... and angular CSS monogram
18:31:19 <koalie> s/then we/then with/
18:31:51 <koalie> ... We went from hard cross-roads to breaks in the line weight
18:32:06 <koalie> ... to give a sense of how the lines are weaving into each other
18:32:18 <koalie> ... This is in one-colour
18:32:23 <koalie> ... back to the hexagon shape
18:32:53 <koalie> ... we came up with shades of blue
18:33:20 <koalie> s/with shades/with a cube in shades/
18:34:10 <koalie> ... it fits well side by side with the HTML5 logo
18:34:31 <koalie> q?
18:35:02 <koalie> Michael: Welcoming questions, focusing on what and why, less about how
18:35:06 <koalie> ... which is our job
18:35:14 <koalie> ack s
18:35:29 <koalie> Topic: Feedback
18:35:31 <koalie> Doug: Michael showed me an early version
18:36:03 <koalie> ... We wanted to be able to leverage characteritics of CSS in the logo itself, for example hover effect or drop shadwo
18:36:09 <koalie> s/dwo/dow/
18:36:14 <dsinger> it would be cool to animate-assemble it, etc. too
18:36:26 <koalie> ... and have a way to simplify the complex shape in small size
18:36:44 <koalie> ... would that work?
18:36:58 <koalie> Michael: We wanted the build it with CSS
18:37:04 <koalie> ... We wanted it animated
18:37:12 <koalie> ... Doug can share a link
18:37:17 <shepazu>  http://codepen.io/jakealbaugh/full/7e67ee5e0dc5ccec87668bb5357a3379
18:37:35 <koalie> Michael: as far as sizing goes, this is why we wanted the unique container
18:37:53 <koalie> ... without the monogran, we have the cube; a box
18:37:57 <koalie> ... it can play that role
18:38:05 <dsinger> q+ to talk about lines and blues
18:39:09 <dsinger> Am concerned about the number of lines, and that they are a bit ‘spindly’. Also wonder why the right two segments and bottom two are in different blues; it diminishes the ‘cube’ effect.
18:39:18 <koalie> ack next
18:39:19 <Zakim> dsinger, you wanted to talk about lines and blues
18:39:50 <koalie> dsinger++ for feeding the record with his comment
18:40:01 <leaverou> q+
18:40:07 <koalie> Michael: We added a diamond shape (the bottom of the cube)
18:40:20 <koalie> ... because we want the eye to see the monogram inside the cube
18:40:46 <dsinger> ah, you want ambiguity between cube and gem. ok
18:40:47 <koalie> ... the cube is not visible at first
18:41:39 <koalie> Doug: How would you feel about showing the version that I saw?
18:41:54 <koalie> Michael: We could. We made adjustments to simplify things
18:42:10 <koalie> ... lighter line weight and addition @@ in the S
18:42:24 <koalie> ... we moved away from that to simplify further and make it more iconic
18:43:04 <dsinger> q?
18:43:04 <koalie> ack next
18:43:13 <koalie> Lea: I really like how it looks
18:43:18 <koalie> ... both cube and diamond
18:43:23 <koalie> ... however it feels too frail
18:43:30 <koalie> ... it doesn't have the boldness of the HTML5 logo
18:43:40 <koalie> ... it feels a bit too complex for a logo
18:43:47 <dsinger> +1 to Lea
18:43:52 <koalie> ... it might not contribute to a strong brand
18:44:11 <koalie> Michael: It has far less negative space than the HTML5 logo
18:44:21 <koalie> ... it is not fragile since it is in a container
18:44:31 <dsinger> would like to see it with the C heavier (and possibly then the C only can stay in small sizes?)
18:44:38 <koalie> ... when presented next to HTML5 logo, there is a notion of yin and yang
18:44:57 <koalie> ... weight could be refined
18:45:02 <koalie> ... point taken
18:45:24 <koalie> ... as far as brand, I think people will love to draw it
18:45:38 <koalie> ... geometric pattern
18:45:58 <koalie> ... I've been sketching it a lot; it's fun to draw
18:46:11 <koalie> ... so, point well taken; we can make it more powerful
18:46:24 <koalie> ... but not straw too far away
18:46:32 <koalie> Lea: Making is a bit simpler would help
18:46:39 <koalie> ... the first thought I have is: complex
18:46:51 <dsinger> I think it’s a fine balance between ‘elegant’ and ‘fragile’ or ‘spindly’.
18:47:01 <dsinger> ‘Complex’ is not usually a compliment.
18:47:02 <koalie> ... CSS is complex, but I'm not sure it would be good if the logo contributed to reinforcing the idea that CSS is complex
18:47:40 <koalie> Michael: It should not be intimidating
18:47:48 <shepazu> q?
18:47:50 <koalie> ... we should aim at communicating it better
18:48:16 <koalie> Lea: a small version would not be distinguishible
18:48:22 <koalie> ... what's inside is the thing
18:48:28 <koalie> ... hexagon has been done many times
18:49:12 <koalie> Michael: Drawing the HTML5 logo analogy, you can't own the shape
18:49:25 <koalie> ... the HTML5 logo was adopted because it was shared
18:49:58 <koalie> ... There's a mark; the monogram, and the container
18:50:12 <koalie> ... You will be able to leverage itself
18:50:23 <koalie> ... the monogram itself doesn't need to be there at 16 px
18:50:29 <koalie> Doug: Both points well taken
18:51:04 <koalie> ... In the inner cube of the previous version, at the small icon size, you'd still be able to see the C inside
18:51:12 <koalie> ... Maybe we can play with the idea of merging
18:51:16 <koalie> Michael: Yes
18:51:31 <koalie> ... and that might address the issue Lea raised
18:51:51 <koalie> ... and how to make it extensible as much as possible
18:52:22 <koalie> Doug: Is there anybody else who can give immediate impression
18:53:21 <koalie> Coralie: David and I both realised there was a cube when you mentioned it; we had seen the diamond
18:53:34 <koalie> ... I like it, this blew my mind and was representative of duality
18:53:54 <dsinger> q+
18:54:10 <koalie> Michael: Having adaptable shape allows modularity
18:54:16 <koalie> ack next
18:54:33 <koalie> David: I wonder if we could make the C a little heavier
18:54:42 <koalie> ... that would remain in a smaller version
18:55:02 <koalie> ... on the cub/gem ambiguity, only one side has lighter colour
18:55:09 <koalie> s/cub/cube/
18:55:19 <koalie> ... it looks like we're looking at the inside of the cube
18:55:28 <koalie> ... could we try to @@?
18:55:45 <koalie> Michael: Yes
18:55:51 <leaverou> can we have this pdf to look at later in case we have more comments/suggestions later?
18:56:05 <koalie> ... And Doug, the cube within a cube, we had a C-letter form
18:56:18 <alex_antennahouse> I think the outer S feels "wobbly", but the inner S is really good
18:57:11 <koalie> Doug: Comparing with older version, I like the spacing and the letter forms
18:57:21 <koalie> ... there is an arabic quality to them
18:57:31 <dsinger> agree, I like the international nature of it. rather callipgraphic
18:57:46 <dsinger> s/callipgraphic/calligraphic/
18:57:50 <koalie> Doug:  maze-like, crystalin, pathways but also ... arabic, beautiful script. I like that refinement.
18:58:03 <koalie> ... spindiness is thus decreased
18:58:38 <dsinger> realizes he forgot to say anything +ve, there is a lot to like here!!
18:58:41 <koalie> Michael: yes, we liked that it looked like it had been done with a calligraphic pen
18:59:11 <koalie> ... to the point of complexity, it has a number of twists and turns,
18:59:16 <koalie> ... they are repetitive
18:59:23 <koalie> ... allow modularity
18:59:31 <koalie> ... this is weighing in
18:59:38 <koalie> ... I appreciate the useful feedback
19:00:31 <koalie> Doug: Can you show something next week?
19:00:35 <koalie> Michael: yes
19:00:43 <koalie> Doug: Can I distribute slides?
19:01:05 <koalie> Michael: yes with the caveat that I want to inform this process with what we learned with the HTML5 logo
19:01:21 <koalie> ... big splash as it arrived without warning contributing to its success
19:01:27 <dsinger> realizes it looks more like a Knot Garden than a Maze <https://www.pinterest.com/mgwv/knot-gardens/>
19:02:01 <koalie> ... caveat: let's not share with the community; it's not as inclusive, which is why we here now, but please, let's keep it close to the vest
19:02:14 <dsinger> thinks we should find an arabic calligrapher to comment on how they would write it
19:02:18 <koalie> ... especially as we're continuing to refine it.
19:02:36 <koalie> Doug: Michael/ocupop are doing this pro bono, by the way
19:03:07 <koalie> ... I'd like for us to be comfortable. let's try to strike a balance between how decisive we can be about this process
19:03:15 <koalie> ... I'll be in touch with everybody about next steps
19:03:24 <koalie> ... Any open questions?
19:03:27 <koalie> [nope]
19:03:36 <koalie> Doug: thanks everybody for showing up
19:03:48 <koalie> ... we'll schedule another round, hoping more people join
19:04:31 <dsinger> I already like it better than the HTML5 logo :-)
19:04:32 <koalie> Michael: We don't care if you like it. Ultimately, what we care about is if it's effective.
19:04:54 <koalie> ... I want people to be excited about
19:05:08 <koalie> [thanks all]
19:05:11 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
19:05:13 <Zakim> -alex_antennahouse
19:05:15 <Zakim> -MichaelN
19:05:15 <Zakim> -Lea
19:05:16 <koalie> Michael_Nieling, I like it a lot, well done
19:05:17 <Zakim> -plinss
19:05:18 <Zakim> -dsinger
19:05:20 <Zakim> - +1.617.583.aaaa
19:05:20 <Zakim> -renoirb
19:05:32 <koalie> Zakim, list attendees
19:05:32 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Doug_Schepers, plinss, MichaelN, alex_antennahouse, koalie, [Apple], Lea, dsinger, +1.617.583.aaaa, renoirb
19:05:34 <Zakim> -koalie
19:05:34 <Zakim> Team_(logo)18:00Z has ended
19:05:34 <Zakim> Attendees were Doug_Schepers, plinss, MichaelN, alex_antennahouse, koalie, [Apple], Lea, dsinger, +1.617.583.aaaa, renoirb
19:05:40 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
19:05:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/03-logo-minutes.html koalie
19:06:04 <shepazu> koalie, public, I think
19:06:26 <koalie> eventhough you pasted a link to the pen?
19:06:52 <shepazu> koalie, ok, member :)
19:07:10 <shepazu> no, member is fine for now
19:07:17 <koalie> RRSAgent, set logs member
19:07:43 <koalie> meeting: CSS logo/branding
19:07:46 <shepazu> I have a knee-jerk reaction toward public/open, which is in conflict with my no-spoilers mode
19:07:47 <koalie> chair: Doug
19:09:53 <shepazu> koalie, up to you
19:10:19 <koalie> s| http://codepen.io/jakealbaugh/full/7e67ee5e0dc5ccec87668bb5357a3379||
19:10:21 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
19:10:21 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/03-logo-minutes.html koalie
19:10:44 <koalie> RRSAgent, make logs public
19:10:54 <koalie> s/koalie, public, I think//
19:10:59 <Florian> Florian has joined #logo
19:11:01 <koalie> s/eventhough you pasted a link to the pen?//
19:11:05 <koalie> s/koalie, ok, member :)//
19:11:10 <koalie> s/no, member is fine for now//
19:11:16 <koalie> s/I have a knee-jerk reaction toward public/open, which is in conflict with my no-spoilers mode//
19:11:21 <koalie> s/koalie, up to you//
19:11:22 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
19:11:22 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/03-logo-minutes.html koalie
19:12:07 <koalie> s|I have a knee-jerk reaction toward public/open, which is in conflict with my no-spoilers mode||
19:12:20 <koalie> s|s/I have a knee-jerk reaction toward public/open, which is in conflict with my no-spoilers mode//||
19:12:24 <koalie> RRSagent, make minutes
19:12:24 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/03-logo-minutes.html koalie
19:12:54 <koalie> RRSAgent, bye
19:12:54 <RRSAgent> I see no action items