14:43:09 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #mobile-a11y
14:43:09 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-mobile-a11y-irc
14:43:11 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:43:11 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #mobile-a11y
14:43:13 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_MATF
14:43:13 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:14 <trackbot> Meeting: Mobile Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
14:43:14 <trackbot> Date: 02 April 2015
14:43:16 <Kathy> zakim, this will be 6283
14:43:16 <Zakim> ok, Kathy; I see WAI_MATF()11:00AM scheduled to start in 17 minutes
14:43:35 <Kathy> rrsagent, make log world
14:43:42 <Kathy> meeting: Mobile A11Y TF
14:43:49 <Kathy> chair: Kathy
14:44:57 <Kathy> agenda: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-mobile-a11y-tf/2015Mar/0029.html
14:55:44 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has now started
14:55:51 <Zakim> +Kathy_Wahlbin
14:56:16 <Kathy> agenda+ New time for meeting
14:56:27 <Kathy> agenda+ Survey
14:56:49 <Kathy> agenda+ Comments on note http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/mobile-a11y-tf/wiki/Comments_on_Mobile_Accessibility_Note_20150226
14:57:05 <Kathy> agenda+ Responding to comments on Github
14:57:12 <Kathy> agenda?
14:59:20 <Zakim> +Detlev
15:00:26 <marcjohlic> marcjohlic has joined #mobile-a11y
15:00:30 <Zakim> +Alan_Smith
15:00:54 <Zakim> +Marc_Johlic
15:01:02 <Alan_Smith> Alan_Smith has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:09 <HennyS> HennyS has joined #mobile-a11y
15:01:50 <Zakim> -Detlev
15:02:36 <Mike_Pluke> Mike_Pluke has joined #mobile-a11y
15:02:48 <Zakim> +??P18
15:02:49 <Zakim> +Jeanne
15:02:52 <jeanne> jeanne has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:16 <Jan> Jan has joined #mobile-a11y
15:03:18 <jeanne> zakim, who is on the phone?
15:03:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Kathy_Wahlbin, Alan_Smith, Marc_Johlic, ??P18, Jeanne
15:03:23 <Jan> zakim, code?
15:03:23 <Zakim> the conference code is 6283 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan
15:03:37 <jeanne> zakim, P18 is Mike_Pluke
15:03:37 <Zakim> sorry, jeanne, I do not recognize a party named 'P18'
15:03:51 <Detlev> I put in    6283 as pass code but Zakim tells mie it is not valid...
15:03:58 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:04:04 <jeanne> zakim, ??P18 is Mike_Pluke
15:04:04 <Zakim> +Mike_Pluke; got it
15:04:08 <Alan_Smith> scribe:alan
15:04:09 <Jan> zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan
15:04:09 <Zakim> +Jan; got it
15:04:21 <Alan_Smith> takeup next
15:04:38 <HennyS> I'm unable to access the conference bridge. I just get static feedback.
15:04:39 <Alan_Smith> zakim, next item
15:04:39 <Zakim> agendum 1. "New time for meeting" taken up [from Kathy]
15:04:47 <Zakim> +Detlev
15:05:07 <Detlev> worked now
15:05:41 <Alan_Smith> one item on on the agenda is first item is taking about new time for this meeting.
15:05:45 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:05:45 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:05:55 <Alan_Smith> many interested in joining but in asia but this time is difficult
15:06:17 <Alan_Smith> can we have it earlier in the day or other creative solutions?
15:06:38 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
15:06:39 <Alan_Smith> Jeanne, anyone on west cost?
15:06:43 <Jan> JR: I can do do as early as 9am ET
15:06:44 <Detlev> What would be the new time suggestion?
15:06:48 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, yes one person.
15:07:00 <Alan_Smith> + Alan for earlier
15:07:16 <Zakim> +AWK
15:07:36 <Alan_Smith> Mike Shivanik is on west coast
15:08:02 <AWK_> AWK_ has joined #mobile-a11y
15:08:09 <Alan_Smith> can we do survey?
15:08:55 <Alan_Smith> David McDonald has conflict with this exact time. Only can join every other week.
15:09:15 <Alan_Smith> Mark, 9-2 on thursdays is okay
15:10:08 <Alan_Smith> I think Jan said okay with Thursday mornings
15:11:54 <Detlev> should we have a scribe?
15:12:04 <Alan_Smith> Kathy suggested two diff times for meetings for techniques. Review meetings at specific times.
15:12:34 <Detlev> Ah - overlooked that, sorry.
15:12:35 <Alan_Smith> Review meetings to two different times?
15:12:43 <Zakim> + +1.408.425.aaaa
15:13:15 <shebanek> shebanek has joined #mobile-a11y
15:13:29 <Alan_Smith> Asian request for Beijing
15:13:52 <Alan_Smith> currently 11:13 pm for them.
15:14:10 <AWK_> q+
15:14:32 <Alan_Smith> Mike Shebanek is on west coast usa
15:14:37 <AWK_> q-
15:15:24 <Alan_Smith> Difficult challenge for this with people in different countries. Starts to get to be where time of day is barrier.
15:16:27 <Alan_Smith> Call for concensus on list and not on calls.
15:16:45 <Alan_Smith> Who is speaking? sorry
15:17:02 <Alan_Smith> Andrew, thanks
15:17:22 <Alan_Smith> Trying to be more asinchroneous.
15:17:48 <Alan_Smith> Consensus in list rather than in meetings.
15:17:51 <Alan_Smith> Yes, I know.
15:18:37 <Detlev> ack me
15:18:47 <Alan_Smith> Jan, hard when you have some that go to one meeting and some to another.
15:19:07 <AWK_> There is a lot of value in being able to thrash topics out on the phone, but the CFC process on the list is more inclusive
15:19:11 <Alan_Smith> Move to making sure we do concensous through the list via survey or others.
15:19:28 <Kathy> https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/66524/20150330_survey/results
15:19:30 <Alan_Smith> jakim: next item
15:19:50 <jeanne> zakim, next item
15:19:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "Survey" taken up [from Kathy]
15:20:24 <Alan_Smith> Started on operable.
15:20:54 <Kathy> TOPCI: 1. 3.1 Keyboard Control for Touchscreen Devices
15:20:54 <Alan_Smith> discuss different one, any missing, have people walk through their suggestions.
15:21:30 <Alan_Smith> 3.1 Keyboard control for touchscreen devices
15:21:45 <Alan_Smith> Reviewing each response.
15:22:09 <Alan_Smith> don't need to be in WCAG but anything new as well.
15:22:20 <Alan_Smith> Touch and mouse control also important
15:22:49 <Mike_Pluke> q+
15:23:20 <Alan_Smith> Mouse could be other device as well.
15:23:45 <Alan_Smith> Detlev, perhaps pointer control.
15:23:51 <Alan_Smith> for example mouse
15:24:22 <Alan_Smith> Kathy also taking notes of comments.
15:24:50 <Alan_Smith> for touch devices in brackets (using touch and keyboard)
15:25:16 <Alan_Smith> David made comment on not seing keyboard trap and do we need discussion of drag and drop.
15:25:35 <jeanne> I agree that we need keyboard trap
15:25:40 <Alan_Smith> Kathy did see trap recently, so it is important
15:26:05 <Alan_Smith> detlev; are we also talking about keyboard and screen readers and swipe?
15:26:15 <marcjohlic> I also agree that we need to address keyboard trap (or trap in general)
15:26:37 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, touch and pointer control also not being trapped for touch.
15:27:06 <Alan_Smith> Is opporability is better wording?
15:27:28 <Alan_Smith> Ensuring touch access control for all functionality' sounds more like it should be associated to 3.3 Touchscreen Gestures as 3.1 focuses on keyboard operability.
15:28:03 <Alan_Smith> "Defining the hover, focus, selected and touch (regular, long) states": these states mostly have a platform-specific implementation so what should the content author define here apart from adequate visible focus (SC 2.4.7)? This might be rendered as "Use focus, hover and select states consistently and in a way that follows the respective platform conventions", or similar.
15:28:47 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, only thing worried about neet to have focus state that is visible.
15:29:20 <Alan_Smith> May need to clarify further, have behaviors of all the ways we interact.
15:29:36 <Alan_Smith> hover, and other have the affordance that something is there.
15:29:44 <Alan_Smith> Mike: trap issue.
15:29:55 <Mike_Pluke> where input focus can be moved to a user interface element, it shall be possible to move the input focus away from that element using the same mechanism, in order to avoid trapping the input focus
15:30:57 <Alan_Smith> Mike could not get his results entered.
15:31:13 <Alan_Smith> Kathy saw this this morning, not sure what is going on with survey.
15:31:53 <Alan_Smith> His comments are in there, no worries.
15:32:20 <Alan_Smith> Kathy when we are looking at keyboard or touch. Kim would share on voice control if on call. More for UAG site.
15:32:40 <Alan_Smith> Anything we should say or include for other ways people are interacting?
15:33:04 <Alan_Smith> Andrew: how to plan for a good voice interaction model.
15:33:28 <Alan_Smith> sumarizing for action.
15:33:46 <Alan_Smith> Sorry, that was Mike
15:34:04 <Alan_Smith> Kathy would we group voice with touch ?
15:34:14 <Alan_Smith> Or specific techniques for switch.
15:34:21 <Alan_Smith> Jan, can emulate both.
15:34:39 <Alan_Smith> Jeanne, likes idea of addressing switch directly.
15:34:49 <Alan_Smith> Give the appearance of not addressing it otherwise.
15:35:00 <Alan_Smith> Have section for "other"
15:35:18 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, what if touch, point and other input devices
15:35:43 <Alan_Smith> Jan, not quite sure about this.
15:36:16 <Alan_Smith> What is keyboard is sequential, touch is ability for random access. Voice is another random access method
15:36:28 <Alan_Smith> Into the ui even with out actual button there.
15:37:06 <Alan_Smith> Alan, keyboard can also do next paragraph, sentence, etc.
15:37:26 <Alan_Smith> Jan, this is an access issue
15:37:46 <Alan_Smith> Mode, is a radial thing.
15:38:16 <Alan_Smith> Voice we can do voice sequeential and randomly.
15:38:34 <Alan_Smith> Kathy put this into three groups in document.
15:38:52 <Alan_Smith> any techniques for random and seq.
15:39:12 <Alan_Smith> Not putting notes on wiki put on seperate word doc.
15:39:36 <Alan_Smith> Detlev, may get things not focusable.
15:39:51 <Alan_Smith> Kathy what about grouping, and how people actually access it.
15:40:20 <Alan_Smith> Jan, still seq. but hierarcial. Are you asking about random?
15:40:38 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, any technique in voice or switch we need to have in here?
15:41:09 <Alan_Smith> Jan, when a switch emulates a mouse, button size is still important.
15:42:01 <Alan_Smith> May not be something to address here. Will think about this more. will look at a whole later.
15:42:12 <Kathy> TOPIC: Touch Target Size and Spacing
15:42:22 <Alan_Smith> next item is 2.3.2
15:42:39 <Alan_Smith>      Providing adequate touch target size / Ensuring that touch targets are large enough to touch accurately without magnification     Provide adequate spacing between touch targets
15:42:57 <Alan_Smith> Jan talking about his comment: Another maybe advisory thing is to provide a viewer showing what's under the finger in apps taking path input (maybe that's for the touch/mouse section)
15:43:07 <Alan_Smith> Many apps these days you want to do fine work.
15:43:26 <Alan_Smith> One technique is a viewer under your finger.
15:43:48 <Alan_Smith> Kathy to go under touch and pointer control.
15:44:00 <Alan_Smith> Kathy, goes with Mikes point on affordance.
15:46:11 <Zakim> -Jeanne
15:46:31 <Zakim> -Marc_Johlic
15:46:37 <Alan_Smith> Alans comment on zoom maginication when touching close to a link button.
15:46:55 <Alan_Smith> Mikes comment:  	Touch target is not defined. It is not uncommon to use software to disambiguate the intended touch target. In such a case the concept of spacing between touch targets is difficult to define. Also, the visible target can be quite small (e.g. a down arrow) as long as it is sufficiently far away from other active controls.
15:47:14 <Alan_Smith> really talking about area inwhich the actual area where you touch the control.
15:47:46 <Alan_Smith> What are talking about with touch target. area in which you touch it it activates a specific control.
15:47:57 <Alan_Smith> Detlev, area that activates the target,
15:48:21 <Alan_Smith> Much larger area that actually activates the target. Or little area you see.
15:48:57 <Alan_Smith> Jan, agrees. To him, the surrounding area is still the touch target.
15:49:12 <Zakim> +Jeanne
15:49:16 <Alan_Smith> Provide adequate spacing, the space in between is inactive.
15:49:37 <Alan_Smith> When targest are small inactive area is more important.
15:49:58 <Alan_Smith> Need to be careful of sugesting spacing.
15:50:54 <Alan_Smith> More concerned that when you touch an element you don't activate the wrong one you did not want to touch.
15:51:33 <Alan_Smith> Provide adequate spacing between elements. Have two items on this.
15:51:39 <Detlev> Zakim, mute me
15:51:39 <Zakim> Detlev should now be muted
15:51:54 <Alan_Smith> Mike, avoided putting size and spacing in european guidelines.
15:52:14 <Alan_Smith> There are minimum sizes defined in dev docs for ios and android.
15:52:26 <jeanne> UAAG says they have to follow dev docs.
15:52:33 <Alan_Smith> Mike is okay with have both.
15:53:05 <Detlev> ack me
15:53:32 <Alan_Smith> detlev: on his comments for touch: better to say imput mode independent.
15:53:44 <jeanne> UAAG SC on following dev docs -> http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#sc_512
15:54:07 <Alan_Smith> One technique avoid techniques when screen reader is turned on some dont work.
15:54:17 <Alan_Smith> Provide fall back to drag and drop
15:54:37 <Alan_Smith> fall back for delete icon via drag and drop to trash can.
15:54:38 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
15:55:18 <Alan_Smith> Alan, is that same as keyboard equiv for all touch
15:55:49 <Alan_Smith> detlev; may have long press and delete key may not be mutually exclusive.
15:55:55 <Alan_Smith> kathy, any more.
15:56:09 <Alan_Smith> Device gesture 3.3.3
15:57:06 <Alan_Smith> Jan, wording needs to be explained, using device buttons are rair on things.
15:57:36 <Alan_Smith> actually going over 4. 3.4 Device Manipulation Gestures
15:57:53 <Alan_Smith> David: might need to rename the second technique to make it clearer... I'm bouncing between arrow on a keyboard and home button on device in my mind.
15:58:01 <Alan_Smith> Are these hard or soft buttons?
15:58:25 <Alan_Smith> Things like android back button.
15:58:33 <Alan_Smith> Is this software or hard key?
15:58:42 <Alan_Smith> Jan, considers this a hardware key.
15:59:07 <Alan_Smith> new android 5 active actually has hardware keys for these that are soft on other devices.
15:59:28 <Alan_Smith> Some use this for other functions, and actions are not consistance.
15:59:39 <Alan_Smith> Jan, same within device useage.
15:59:48 <Alan_Smith> any last comments?:
15:59:59 <Alan_Smith> Kathy will put wiki page together for these notes.
16:00:19 <Alan_Smith> Will create survey for next week for list of techniques.
16:00:29 <Alan_Smith> Kathy thanks and bye.
16:00:29 <Zakim> -Jan
16:00:30 <Zakim> -Detlev
16:00:31 <Zakim> - +1.408.425.aaaa
16:00:31 <Zakim> -Jeanne
16:00:52 <Kathy> zakim, list attendees
16:00:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been Kathy_Wahlbin, Detlev, Alan_Smith, Marc_Johlic, Jeanne, Mike_Pluke, Jan, [IPcaller], AWK, +1.408.425.aaaa
16:01:01 <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
16:01:01 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy
16:01:08 <Alan_Smith> rssagent make minutes
16:01:15 <Kathy> rrsagent, make logs public
16:01:24 <Zakim> -Mike_Pluke
16:01:55 <Kathy> regrets+ Kim
16:02:51 <Kathy> regrets+ David
16:02:56 <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
16:02:56 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy
16:02:59 <Kathy> rrsagent, make logs public
16:03:09 <Alan_Smith> rssagent, make minutes
16:03:32 <Kathy> regrets + David
16:03:39 <Kathy> regrets +Kim
16:03:43 <Kathy> rrsagent, make minutes
16:03:43 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-mobile-a11y-minutes.html Kathy
16:03:45 <Kathy> rrsagent, make logs public
16:04:12 <Kathy> zakim, aaaa is Mike
16:04:12 <Zakim> sorry, Kathy, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:04:22 <Kathy> zakim, aaaa is sherbanek
16:04:22 <Zakim> sorry, Kathy, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:04:29 <Kathy> zakim, aaaa is shebanek
16:04:29 <Zakim> sorry, Kathy, I do not recognize a party named 'aaaa'
16:07:04 <Zakim> -Kathy_Wahlbin
16:07:06 <Zakim> -Alan_Smith
16:12:06 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, AWK, in WAI_MATF()11:00AM
16:12:07 <Zakim> WAI_MATF()11:00AM has ended
16:12:07 <Zakim> Attendees were Kathy_Wahlbin, Detlev, Alan_Smith, Marc_Johlic, Jeanne, Mike_Pluke, Jan, [IPcaller], AWK, +1.408.425.aaaa
17:06:21 <jeanne> jeanne has left #mobile-a11y