16:26:45 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aria
16:26:45 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-irc
16:26:47 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
16:26:47 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aria
16:26:49 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
16:26:49 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG()12:30PM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
16:26:50 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
16:26:50 <trackbot> Date: 02 April 2015
16:27:20 <MichaelC> agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0244.html
16:27:29 <MichaelC> regrets: Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Matt_King
16:27:33 <MichaelC> chair: Michael_Cooper
16:27:59 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG()12:30PM has now started
16:28:07 <Zakim> + +49.322.110.8.aaaa
16:28:35 <Stefan> can naybody give phone number for conference?
16:28:49 <Zakim> +??P7
16:29:21 <janina> zakim, call janina
16:29:21 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
16:29:23 <Zakim> +Janina
16:29:24 <MichaelC> zakim, aaaa is Stefan_Schnabel
16:29:24 <Zakim> +Stefan_Schnabel; got it
16:30:34 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:31:07 <clown> clown has joined #aria
16:31:40 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
16:31:53 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:31:53 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
16:32:03 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:32:03 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
16:35:16 <jongund> jongund has joined #aria
16:36:25 <clown> action-1349
16:36:25 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
16:36:25 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
16:38:12 <Stefan> Scribe: Stefan
16:38:36 <MichaelC> topic: Action 1349 Patch issue-561
16:38:41 <MichaelC> action-1349?
16:38:41 <trackbot> action-1349 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Patch issue-561: we need @aria-placeholder as backup for @placeholder in custom fields. -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN
16:38:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1349
16:38:42 <Stefan> MichaelC: placeholder topic
16:38:58 <MichaelC> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/action-1349/aria/aria.html#aria-placeholder
16:39:07 <Stefan> MC: Joannie created branch containing draft
16:40:02 <Zakim> +James_Nurthen
16:40:16 <Stefan> MC: open questions?
16:40:22 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly
16:40:50 <jamesn> jamesn has joined #aria
16:40:56 <Stefan> Joseph: my comment was about focus issue
16:41:05 <jamesn> rrsagent, make minutes
16:41:06 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html jamesn
16:41:41 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Jan/0071.html
16:41:59 <joanie> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0049.html
16:45:13 <Stefan> Joannie: still looking for some background ... going through history
16:45:26 <Stefan> MC: most of review has happened
16:45:46 <Stefan> Joannie: I need more feedback
16:46:10 <Stefan> Joannie: I actively ask for review
16:46:35 <Stefan> MC: ok feedback until next thursday
16:47:32 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
16:47:34 <Stefan> RESOLUTION: joannie: merges branch if no more feedback until next week
16:47:45 <MichaelC> s/until/by/
16:48:03 <Stefan> MC: anything else?
16:48:10 <MichaelC> topic: Review Table Branch (Actions 1395, 1293, 1403; issue 423)
16:48:15 <MichaelC> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
16:48:16 <Stefan> MC: ok going to table branch
16:48:47 <MichaelC> rawgit.com/w3c/aria/tables/aria/aria.html
16:49:09 <MichaelC> colcount, colindex, colspan, rowcount, rowindex, rowspan
16:49:23 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
16:50:11 <Stefan> MC: clarify aria-rowcount=-1
16:50:46 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aria
16:51:08 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
16:51:08 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
16:51:32 <MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that should not be calculated by the user agent.
16:51:48 <MichaelC> proposed: If the total number of rows is unknown, authors SHOULD set the value of aria-rowcount to -1 to indicate that the value should not be calculated by the user agent.
16:52:56 <Stefan> MC: second one is proposal
16:55:21 <Stefan> MC: we don't have a solid decision should vs. must
16:56:02 <Stefan> MC: I lean towards must
16:56:29 <Stefan> MC: do we have consensus on wording change?
16:56:56 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:57:05 <Stefan> Joannie: add 1.1. on table properties
16:57:25 <MichaelC> zakim, Microsoft is Cynthia_Shelly
16:57:25 <Zakim> +Cynthia_Shelly; got it
16:57:28 <Stefan> Joannie: (and other things)
16:57:33 <joanie> s/Joannie/Joanie/g
16:58:19 <Stefan> Joanie: why rowcount/colcount are not limited to table itsself?
16:59:02 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-aria-minutes#item01
16:59:15 <MichaelC> http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-aria-minutes#item03
17:00:22 <Stefan> Bryan: ? Colcount can change on row basis
17:01:54 <Stefan> MC: we discussed issues 2 weeks ago - check the minutes
17:02:41 <asurkov> just in case, I’m in the chat but not on the phone
17:03:28 <joanie> asurkov: We don't seem to know why rowcount and colcount might need to be on a descendant element. :)
17:03:33 <Stefan> Bryan: Rich said it should be on row also, I think
17:03:41 <asurkov> joanie: cool!
17:03:43 <joanie> asurkov: As I recall, Rich was the one who knows and he's not here.
17:04:26 <asurkov> I think aria-rowcount not on the table is extra headache for implementators
17:04:42 <asurkov> and it’s not clear how to handle collisions
17:05:48 <Stefan> Cynthia: is walking up hierarchy inpossible?
17:06:09 <Stefan> JN: you end in a mess when DOM is complicated
17:07:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:07:54 <Stefan> Cynthia: we need a resolution that it must be on the table element
17:08:14 <Stefan> MC: fair thing would to be call out in review request
17:08:20 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
17:08:20 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
17:08:56 <Stefan> Cynthia: send email to rich and talk with him
17:09:43 <Stefan> missed that
17:11:09 <Stefan> joanie: html caption examples - ccaption is not label, screen readers will have issues with long captions spilling out everything
17:11:10 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-caption
17:11:35 <Stefan> Cynthia: potential issue here - woth considering
17:12:15 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
17:12:31 <Stefan> Cynthia: it has been in IE forever, FF copied it
17:13:12 <Stefan> Cynthia: maybe use case is not so common
17:14:01 <Stefan> joanie: we want to be parallel to html, for me a caption is pretty much a label for a table
17:14:27 <Stefan> Cynthia: no caption is not a label
17:15:04 <Stefan> gives up to recognize voices :)
17:15:51 <Stefan> MC: aria-describedby on table works fine
17:16:42 <Stefan> LJWAtson agrees with Cynthia about caption-label
17:16:56 <Stefan> caption=label
17:17:09 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
17:17:40 <Stefan> Cynthia: summary is supposed to be long
17:17:58 <Stefan> Joseph: summary is the 5th coice
17:18:20 <Stefan> jamesn: caption is accessible description for table?
17:18:35 <Stefan> or accessible name?
17:19:52 <Stefan> there is a clear hierarcy defined in http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#table-element-accessible-name-calculation
17:20:18 <asurkov> caption is name
17:20:19 <Stefan> MC: my inclanation is to leave caption in for now
17:20:56 <Stefan> MC: caption is fairly well widely used
17:22:34 <asurkov> I would suggest to take undisputable stuff only into the spec and leave all disuptable stuff for later, that could dealiver better progress
17:22:36 <Stefan> MC: that's probaby all for caption for now
17:23:22 <Stefan> MC: how is gridcell different from cell?
17:23:36 <Stefan> LJWatson: one is a control and one is not
17:24:14 <Stefan> Cynthia; grids are spreadsheets and interactive things - we think that too
17:25:14 <Stefan> LJWatson: grids are different on platform level ...
17:25:51 <Stefan> LJWatson: grids map currently to table -- but if it interactive they map to grid
17:26:03 <Stefan> MC: vacation for separate roles on mapping level
17:26:27 <Stefan> MC: better to use roles instead of relying on heuristics
17:28:31 <Stefan> LJWatson: good point having use cases for different roles
17:29:35 <Stefan> joanie: if it makes difference for cells it probably also makes difference for rows
17:29:47 <LJWatson> +1
17:30:58 <Stefan> MC: grids can contain rows or gridrows for backward compatibility
17:31:26 <Stefan> MC: mplementers have to recognize different cases
17:31:58 <Stefan> joanie: how to distinguish interactive from non-interactive rows
17:32:31 <Stefan> Cynthia: not sure about table cells
17:33:04 <Stefan> Cynthia: we are talking about differnt aria role for row
17:33:10 <jamesn> I think it will add confusion
17:34:07 <Stefan> Joseph: some rows in grid aren't interactive, some are that causes prob now
17:35:29 <clown> s/that causes prob now/does that cause a problem now/
17:36:11 <Stefan> joanie: it is a serious question, we should have specific roles for non-interactive tables
17:36:43 <Stefan> Cynthia: people wanted to convert div soup into tables using ARIA thhis was the reason
17:39:05 <Stefan> joanie: why do we want to do this? e.g. SVG tables .. they mabe map to aria grids but they are not interactive
17:39:53 <newtron_> newtron_ has joined #aria
17:40:41 <Stefan> joanie: there is a camp: SVG is about images and not tables, you can import HTML but User Agents dont support it
17:41:20 <Stefan> joanie: people doing tables using text markup - don't do that
17:41:33 <Stefan> joanie: in SVG
17:41:45 <joanie> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/6987005/create-a-table-in-svg
17:43:26 <Stefan> joanie: this link holds all discussions we are talking about
17:43:55 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
17:44:31 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
17:45:33 <cyns> cyns has joined #aria
17:45:35 <clown> http://svg-whiz.com/svg/table.svg
17:47:30 <jamesn> can you embed html in SVG like you can embed svg in html?
17:48:42 <cyns> UIA Table pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671288(v=vs.85).aspx
17:49:41 <Stefan> janina: using text objects in SVG is a hack
17:49:49 <Stefan> janina: to mimic tables
17:50:21 <jamesn> q+
17:50:33 <cyns> UIA Grid control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671277(v=vs.85).aspx
17:50:34 <MichaelC> ack j
17:50:43 <MichaelC> a+ Léonie
17:50:47 <MichaelC> q+ Léonie
17:50:52 <LJWatson> q}
17:50:57 <LJWatson> q+
17:51:08 <cyns> UIA tableitem control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671289(v=vs.85).aspx
17:51:11 <MichaelC> ack l
17:51:14 <MichaelC> ack l
17:51:30 <cyns> UIA grid item control pattern https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ee671278(v=vs.85).aspx
17:52:42 <LJWatson> ack me
17:52:47 <Stefan> LJWatson: IBM has an enormous array of complex charts - svg is not a painting tool any more
17:53:09 <joanie> q+ to Say "what James N said", along with asking what the next step is: Table roles (and if so, which ones), or repurpose Grid to support both interactive and non-interactive
17:53:17 <Stefan> Bryan: true that svg has no table mapping structure
17:53:30 <Stefan> janina: we need to do that for ARIA 2
17:53:59 <Stefan> janina: ARIA 1.1 has too tight time frame for that
17:54:17 <Stefan> MC: defer that +1
17:54:42 <Stefan> janina: not to take too much too early
17:55:04 <joanie> q-
17:55:50 <Stefan> MC: joanie please take this in your review request
17:56:19 <Stefan> MC. meaning of tables vs. grids still has lots to do
17:56:40 <Stefan> MC: other things about tables?
17:56:58 <Stefan> MC: or other things on your radar?
17:57:07 <Stefan> Joanie: no (short answer)
17:59:11 <Stefan> MC: looks like turning neverteless in big discussions .. lets address this to Rich
17:59:23 <Stefan> joanie: are we planning to have face to face?
17:59:56 <Stefan> MC: not concrete plans yet .. waiting till november
18:00:32 <Stefan> janina: some sort of clarity probably by end of april
18:00:41 <Zakim> -LJWatson
18:00:51 <joanie> q+ to make a next step re table proposal
18:01:53 <MichaelC> ack j
18:01:53 <Zakim> joanie, you wanted to make a next step re table proposal
18:02:12 <janina> +1 to Joanie's proposal
18:02:13 <Stefan> joanie: I can make a new branch
18:03:06 <Stefan> cyns: joanie I added links to table/grid definitions for info#
18:03:11 <Zakim> -James_Nurthen
18:03:20 <Stefan> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html Stefan
18:03:40 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:03:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:03:49 <Zakim> -Cynthia_Shelly
18:03:51 <Zakim> -Stefan_Schnabel
18:03:52 <MichaelC> zakim, list attendees
18:03:52 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Stefan_Schnabel, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly,
18:03:55 <Zakim> ... Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson
18:04:02 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:02 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:04:11 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make log world
18:04:15 <MichaelC> rrsagent, make minutes
18:04:15 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/04/02-aria-minutes.html MichaelC
18:09:23 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:09:25 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
18:09:26 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
18:09:30 <Zakim> -Janina
18:09:31 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
18:09:31 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG()12:30PM has ended
18:09:31 <Zakim> Attendees were +49.322.110.8.aaaa, Michael_Cooper, Janina, Stefan_Schnabel, Joanmarie_Diggs, Joseph_Scheuhammer, James_Nurthen, Cynthia_Shelly, Bryan_Garaventa, LJWatson
18:09:37 <MichaelC> rrsagent, bye
18:09:37 <RRSAgent> I see no action items