13:58:15 RRSAgent has joined #i18n 13:58:15 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-irc 13:58:20 Zakim has joined #i18n 13:58:26 trackbot, prepare teleconference 13:58:28 RRSAgent, make logs world 13:58:30 Zakim, this will be 4186 13:58:30 ok, trackbot; I see I18N_WG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes 13:58:31 Meeting: Internationalization Working Group Teleconference 13:58:31 Date: 26 March 2015 13:58:38 Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-i18n-core/2015Mar/0018.html 13:58:45 Chair: Addison Phillips 13:58:47 matial has joined #i18n 13:58:50 ScribeNick: aphillip 13:59:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:00:05 zakim, who is here? 14:00:05 I18N_WG()10:00AM has not yet started, aphillip 14:00:07 On IRC I see matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 14:01:05 zakim, this is I18N 14:01:05 ok, aphillip; that matches I18N_WG()10:00AM 14:01:06 zakim, dial richard please 14:01:06 ok, r12a; the call is being made 14:01:07 +Richard 14:01:12 zakim, who is here? 14:01:12 On the phone I see Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Richard (muted) 14:01:14 On IRC I see matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 14:03:44 zakim, who is here? 14:03:44 On the phone I see Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Richard 14:03:46 On IRC I see matial, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, Steve_Atkin, r12a, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 14:04:09 Topic: Agenda 14:04:30 Topic: Info Share 14:04:39 Topic: Action Items 14:05:33 action-113? 14:05:33 action-113 -- Richard Ishida to Work on tidying up Additional Requirements for Bidi in HTML & CSS over coming couple of months -- due 2015-02-05 -- OPEN 14:05:33 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/113 14:05:55 action: addison: ping Aharon with email about additional requirements document 14:05:55 Created ACTION-421 - Ping aharon with email about additional requirements document [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-04-02]. 14:08:37 action-412? 14:08:37 action-412 -- Felix Sasaki to Publish multilingual web usage scenarios -- due 2015-03-12 -- OPEN 14:08:37 http://www.w3.org/International/track/actions/412 14:09:32 close action-418 14:09:32 Closed action-418. 14:10:10 close action-420 14:10:10 Closed action-420. 14:10:16 Topic: Info Share 14:10:53 Topic: RADAR and Active Work Review 14:11:04 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Review_radar 14:11:16 r12a-limechat has joined #i18n 14:12:37 steve: will pick up svg a11y spec? 14:13:07 data on the web bp: make felix shepherd 14:13:34 richard: new tweet about new version of latin layout req 14:13:53 https://www.w3.org/International/wiki/Project_radar 14:15:08 JcK has joined #i18n 14:15:27 action: addison: warn WG members to look at LTLI ED for discussion next week as a new WD 14:15:27 Created ACTION-422 - Warn wg members to look at ltli ed for discussion next week as a new wd [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-04-02]. 14:16:28 richard: cl req: not much activity this week, except that discussing with PLH what process is for getting people into TF 14:16:31 +JcK 14:16:41 ... don't need to make them WG members per-se 14:16:53 ... process is to make them public invited expert 14:17:07 ... put them in the IG 14:17:38 richard: they get a W3 account and then fill in IE form 14:18:48 richard: predefined counter styles 14:18:54 ... if we have extra time, could brainstorm 14:19:43 mlweb workshop 14:19:51 http://www.multilingualweb.eu/documents/2015-riga-workshop/2015-riga-program 14:20:03 program announced 14:21:49 Topic: TPAC attendance 14:22:02 addison: several people seem to be coming 14:22:06 ... do we need a room? 14:22:31 richard: tpac in china wasn't bad... had seats to sit on 14:23:04 addison: no room, wandering minstrel mode? 14:23:14 richard: think that might be best approach 14:23:31 addison: what about cl req folks? 14:23:58 action: richard: ping beihan folks about tpac logistics 14:23:58 Created ACTION-423 - Ping beihan folks about tpac logistics [on Richard Ishida - due 2015-04-02]. 14:24:23 Topic: Best practices with the W3C process 14:24:31 https://www.w3.org/wiki/DocumentReview 14:24:34 +koji 14:26:10 BP: if in doubt, before formally asking a horizontal group to review a document, talk to them informally (f.ex. via e-mail). (comment): I agree that it may not be obvious that a document needs horizontal review, but I tend to take a stronger line: even if you have not identified a horizontal group dependency, you should always discuss whether a review is necessary or even request a review (saying if you think there are no issues of interest to t[CUT] 14:27:03 BP: avoid cross-posting to multiple lists (and if this must be done, use Bcc:). Alternate instructions for providing commentary (if needed). Some groups use bugzilla or github as a means of communication and for tracking issues. --Addison Phillips (talk) 14:28:32 richard: should add cross-posting as needed 14:28:37 ... "get a decent mail client" 14:29:23 addison: will edit the above 14:29:54 ... actively want cross-posting 14:30:21 action: addison: solicit comments from WG on w3c document review process wiki page 14:30:21 Created ACTION-424 - Solicit comments from wg on w3c document review process wiki page [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-04-02]. 14:30:39 Topic: Best Practices when writing Specifications 14:34:23 richard: don't use bpXXX number. use the gray character off to the left (the id for the best practice) when referring to bps 14:34:34 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:34:42 use http://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/#lang_neg or #lang_neg NOT BP71 to refer to recommendations 14:38:05 matial has joined #I18N 14:39:07 matial has joined #i18n 14:39:23 action: richard: figure out means of making BP number and/or identifier properly emphasized 14:39:24 Created ACTION-425 - Figure out means of making bp number and/or identifier properly emphasized [on Richard Ishida - due 2015-04-02]. 14:40:07 richard: this document 14:40:33 richard: orginally this document was a home for homeless information 14:40:47 ... but became apparent that people expected this to be everything they needed 14:40:51 ... or at least pointers 14:40:59 ... and confusing if they had to go to techniques page 14:41:07 ... so spent time rearchitecting it 14:41:22 ... all BPs in techniques page are now here too 14:41:39 ... and the techniques page would like to "more info" locations 14:41:54 ... changed techniques to allow pointer to more than one thing 14:42:15 ... and wrote a script that takes BP document and generates techniques 14:42:54 richard: two versions of techniques (one collapsable, one not) 14:43:09 ... one version is generated from github document 14:43:20 ... reduces need for duplicating information 14:43:29 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:43:55 -Steve_Atkin 14:44:20 My line dropped calling back 14:45:01 +Steve_Atkin 14:46:59 http://w3c.github.io/bp-i18n-specdev/ 14:47:19 http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs 14:47:37 http://www.w3.org/International/techniques/developing-specs-dynamic 14:47:57 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 14:49:22 Topic: WebVTT and App-Manifest comment review 14:51:17 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2015JanMar/ 14:52:04 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2015JanMar/0181.html 14:52:12 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28262 14:53:30 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2015JanMar/0167.html 14:53:59 https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-international/2015JanMar/0168.html 14:54:14 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28266 14:58:12 https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=28265 14:58:12 I need to drop I have another call. 14:58:22 -Steve_Atkin 14:58:35 W3C HTML5 also has rb, rtc That said, I think it is a non-goal to match the expressiveness of HTML in WebVTT. WebVTT only has elements to cater for specific use cases that apply to it. 15:00:00 koji: don't know where the boundaries are? 15:00:16 ... quite hard to say that 15:00:40 ... nobody from japan is helping with this? 15:00:50 addison: don't see anyone per-se 15:03:30 koji: common when only two lines to have first line ruby on top and second line ruby on bottom, for example 15:03:40 ... not sure if TV wants double-sided 15:03:57 ... maybe not so important to have group, etc 15:04:57 richard: no ruby styling provided? maybe new comment? 15:05:52 action: richard: ask at domain meeting about whether webvtt will be used for tv and cinema 15:05:53 Created ACTION-426 - Ask at domain meeting about whether webvtt will be used for tv and cinema [on Richard Ishida - due 2015-04-02]. 15:09:44 action: addison: tag all threads based on our comments in appmanifest's github so we can track 15:09:44 Created ACTION-427 - Tag all threads based on our comments in appmanifest's github so we can track [on Addison Phillips - due 2015-04-02]. 15:09:56 Topic: AOB? 15:10:51 zakim, who is here? 15:10:51 On the phone I see aphillip, Richard, JcK, koji 15:10:53 On IRC I see matial, JcK, r12a-limechat, Zakim, RRSAgent, aphillip, koji, fantasai, xiaoqian, trackbot 15:11:11 -aphillip 15:11:15 -JcK 15:11:19 Regrets: Felix 15:11:25 JcK has left #i18n 15:11:30 Present: Addison, Richard, Steve, JcK, Koji 15:11:36 rrsagent, make minutes 15:11:36 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/26-i18n-minutes.html aphillip 15:15:04 http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/css3-writing-modes/bidi/results-bidi 15:15:47 http://test.csswg.org/harness/results/css-writing-modes-3_dev/grouped/ 15:18:43 http://test.csswg.org/harness/test/css-writing-modes-3_dev/single/bidi-plaintext-002/format/html5/ 15:19:06 http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/run?manifest=css3-writing-modes/bidi&test=block-plaintext-002 15:25:08 lost voice? 15:25:38 yes, apparently 15:25:51 I'm seeing here https://github.com/w3c/csswg-test/pulls?page=1&pulls_only=true&q=is%3Apr+is%3Aopen 15:25:52 basically, i was saying i'll investigate and send you an email 15:26:04 do not see much bi-di tests PR are open 15:26:46 it may be that they were merged into github, but not copied over to shepherd's mercurial db ?? 15:27:08 which was the case for the counter-styles tests i was discussing recenlty with ChrisL 15:27:31 oh really, I thought that should be automatic 15:27:40 maybe system problem? 15:27:52 give me a short while to investigate off-line and double-check the files, and i'll send you what i find, ok? 15:28:01 that'd be great 15:28:03 it's not automatic, no :( 15:28:16 oh... 15:28:21 ok, speak to you later 15:28:29 thank you! 15:34:11 -koji 15:39:12 disconnecting the lone participant, Richard, in I18N_WG()10:00AM 15:39:13 I18N_WG()10:00AM has ended 15:39:13 Attendees were Steve_Atkin, aphillip, Richard, JcK, koji 16:46:44 koji, still there? 16:47:11 yeah 16:47:14 wow 16:47:22 so i've been investigating... 16:47:31 turns out i was comparing the wrong files 16:48:25 if i look at bidi-plaintext-001, this test fails on my current version of firefox 16:48:37 looking at http://test.csswg.org/harness/results/css-writing-modes-3_dev/grouped/ 16:48:48 it shows 16:49:06 one pass and 6 fails for gecko 16:49:28 the pass and one of the fails is for the same version of firefox 16:49:30 :( 16:49:57 this is one of the reasons i created my own test framework, rather than continue with the w3c one 16:50:04 ah 16:50:14 i was finding that people were adding spurious results quite often 16:50:22 yeah, it's not surprising to see wrong results submitted 16:50:24 also, there's no column for blink 16:50:41 I actually did one by mistake, but Shepherd did not give me a chance to edit/delete records 16:50:54 yeah :-( 16:51:03 yeah, there is a method of deleting incorrect stuff, but its a little painful 16:51:08 and only admins can do it 16:51:38 oh I see 16:51:50 btw, the bidi-plaintext-002 file no longer appears in my results at http://www.w3.org/International/tests/repository/css3-writing-modes/bidi/results-bidi#plaintext 16:52:26 i've been trying to figure out why, but i think its because the test produces a positive result without the unicode-bidi property, ie. not a good test 16:52:38 i'm not sure how to remove it from the shepherd environment 16:52:39 I see 16:53:12 i was thinking that i could run all these tests again on the latest versions of the browsers and update as necessary 16:53:19 in my results page 16:53:33 though i'm not sure there'll be many, if any changes 16:53:41 ok, so for bi-di, I should trust your results than w3c ;) 16:53:49 yeah 16:53:50 :) 16:53:59 or run them yourself ;-) 16:54:09 so, from your page 16:54:17 it looks like browsers are quite consistent for pass/fail 16:54:33 i could also create a set of tests for prefixed versions of the properties, since this would show a lot more green 16:54:53 in fact, i think it would be nearly all green 16:55:12 should i do that? 16:55:24 are they prefixed? 16:55:34 I know writing-mode is 16:55:39 but is unicode-bidi? 16:55:55 yes, that's why our css fix works for html 16:56:07 for isolation 16:56:32 that I didn't know...the properties are from CSS2, right? 16:56:37 so values are prefixed? 16:56:46 see the shim at http://www.w3.org/International/articles/inline-bidi-markup/Overview#html5markup 16:57:01 yes, values 16:58:32 I see... 16:58:45 I have a bookmarklet to test writing-mode on Chrome https://github.com/kojiishi/tweak-css-tests 17:01:19 I can add them and try to support other browsers if it helps 17:01:27 or you can send me PR ;-) 17:01:47 this is for the prefixed tests? 17:02:27 It modifies DOM to add prefixes and old syntaxes 17:02:33 i see 17:02:58 actually i'll probably just copy all the files and globally replace the necessary parts 17:03:06 or you can include