18:54:30 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
18:54:30 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-irc
18:54:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
18:54:32 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
18:54:34 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
18:54:34 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
18:54:35 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
18:54:35 <trackbot> Date: 24 March 2015
18:55:02 <clown> agenda: this
18:55:11 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements.
18:55:17 <clown> agenda+ ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup.
18:55:22 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array.
18:55:27 <clown> agenda+ Triage: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
18:55:33 <clown> agenda+ be done.
18:56:18 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
18:56:25 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
18:56:33 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:33 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
18:56:38 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:38 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:56:45 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
18:59:40 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
19:02:36 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
19:03:04 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
19:03:10 <davidb> davidb has joined #aapi
19:03:46 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
19:04:13 <joanie> scribe: joanie
19:05:14 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
19:05:37 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
19:05:37 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
19:06:50 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
19:06:50 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ISSUE-700/ACTION-1544/ACTION-1546: (Rich, Cynthia, David, Alex) Mapping of role rowgroup." taken up [from clown]
19:06:57 <clown> issue-700?
19:06:57 <trackbot> issue-700 -- Discuss rowgroup, tbody, and thead in aapis -- open
19:06:57 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/700
19:07:02 <joanie> JS: We started this last week, but I don't recall finishing it.
19:07:12 <joanie> RS: What has Alex actually said?
19:07:37 <joanie> JS: You (Rich) sent him a question and I think he answered it.
19:08:18 <joanie> (Looks for the mailing list thread)
19:09:54 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Feb/0060.html
19:10:00 <joanie> JS: The above is Alex's reply.
19:10:19 <joanie> 1. I only see one use case for role="rowgroup" is to break rows into
19:10:19 <joanie> groups, each groups is a separate set and position inside it and set size
19:10:20 <joanie> are calculated independently.
19:10:42 <joanie> RS: If I read this correctly, he wants the actual number of rows within the group to be reflected; not just the entire table. Correct?
19:12:14 <joanie> RS: If you were going through a number of rows, and all of a sudden the row count goes from 3 to a row count of 500, in the same table, you'd probably go crazy if you didn't know those rows were part of a group.
19:12:19 <joanie> JS: Sample markup?
19:12:25 <richardschwerdtfeger> <table>
19:12:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> <rowgroup>
19:13:22 <richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“1” aria-rowcount=2”>
19:13:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“2” aria-rowcount=2”>
19:13:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> </rowgroup>
19:14:01 <richardschwerdtfeger> <row aria-rowindex=“5” aria-rowcount=500”>
19:14:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> …
19:14:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> </table>
19:14:43 <joanie> RS: So the rowcount is in the context of the rowgroup (in the example above).
19:17:16 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
19:17:27 <joanie> JS: The above is the current mapping.
19:17:55 <joanie> JS: Three are exposing something.
19:18:38 <clown> scribenick:  clown
19:18:49 <clown> JD:  Ideally, I don't want rowgroup exposed.
19:19:01 <clown> JD:  I don't see why it would have a whole separate rowcount
19:19:06 <clown> JD:  It's confusing.
19:19:23 <clown> RS:  We didn't have rowcounts before.
19:19:35 <clown> RS: We can make this part of our response.
19:19:52 <clown> RS:  We want rowcount to apply to the whole table, not just groups.
19:20:31 <clown> scribenick:  Joanie
19:21:19 <joanie> JS: He then says they don't expose groups for thead, tfoot, or tbody.
19:21:26 <joanie> JS: Unless they make it focusable.
19:21:56 <joanie> JS: I do think he has a point with focusable. In terms of the user agent, you can Tab to that row group. And that row group has DOM focus.
19:22:05 <joanie> RS: Do you want it to be a panel or a group?
19:22:53 <joanie> RS: Joanie's going to be drafting a panel role. Have you done that yet?
19:23:04 <joanie> JD: I am still working on table-related things.
19:24:34 <joanie> RS: (Writing response). Rowcount and rowindex reflect the entire table; not the rowgroup.
19:25:19 <joanie> RS: Due to this, rowgroup has no impact on these values (aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex)
19:26:24 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
19:27:01 <cyns> cyns has joined #aapi
19:27:14 <cyns> zakim, microsoft has me
19:27:14 <Zakim> +cyns; got it
19:30:49 <joanie> present+ Cynthia_Shelly
19:32:02 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
19:32:03 <richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
19:32:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
19:32:04 <richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context withing row count.
19:32:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
19:32:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
19:32:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
19:32:32 <richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count.
19:34:05 <joanie> (Discussion about appropriate role for rowgroup)
19:34:46 <joanie> CS: Group and panel are not the same in MSAA or UIA.
19:35:18 <joanie> CS: There's pane and group. The pane would be like the thing on the right hand side in Office before the Ribbon.
19:35:36 <clown> https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/Accessibility/AT-APIs/MSAA/Roles
19:35:36 <joanie> CS: Typical applications you can use a function key to navigate amongst panes in Windows.
19:35:52 <joanie> RS: So is the group of any value in a rowgroup?
19:36:05 <joanie> JS: There has to be an accessible if it gets focus.
19:36:39 <joanie> CS: For UIA and MSAA it will need to be a group.
19:36:50 <joanie> JS: Joanie wants it to be a panel for ATK.
19:37:10 <joanie> RS: Does a div map to a group also?
19:37:23 <joanie> CS: Yes. Fieldset also maps to group.
19:38:56 <clown> https://developer.gnome.org/atk/unstable/AtkObject.html#ATK-ROLE-PANEL:CAPS
19:39:08 <joanie> JD: An ATK_ROLE_PANEL is a collection of "stuff" that is not a block of text.
19:39:17 <joanie> RS: What does Alex have it mapped to now?
19:39:26 <joanie> JS: He has it mapped to group.
19:39:58 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
19:41:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
19:41:28 <richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
19:41:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
19:41:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it has focus we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ATK_ROLE_PANEL,
19:43:37 <joanie> RS: So I think the action is to ask James if it's ok to map this to AXGroup.
19:43:43 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
19:44:04 <joanie> JS: The current mappings are on the assumption that it's not focused. Do you want to expose anything if it isn't focused and cannot be focused?
19:44:10 <joanie> CS: Actually no.
19:44:41 <joanie> CS: We'd follow the same rules as div. For instance, if it had a name, it would be exposed.
19:45:53 <joanie> JD: You need to be consistent: If it's focusable, and we must expose it at all, then it needs to be in the tree.
19:46:27 <joanie> CS: That's what we do with everything. If it has tabindex, then it goes into the tree.
19:46:41 <joanie> RS: I'll modify our response to reflect that.
19:47:24 <joanie> CS: Don't we have rules about this (when to expose objects)?
19:47:27 <joanie> JS: Yes.
19:47:29 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
19:47:30 <richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
19:47:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
19:47:31 <richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it will not be mapped.
19:47:35 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#include_elements
19:47:51 <cyns> add UIA control type is also Group
19:48:01 <joanie> JS: The above part of the spec has this.
19:48:06 <joanie> JS: (Reads from spec)
19:48:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> This is in response to your first bullet on rowgroup after today's #aapi discussion:
19:48:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> 1. The group has determined that the aria-rowcount needs to be indicative of the total number of rows in the entire table or grid.
19:48:46 <richardschwerdtfeger> 2. The aria-rowindex is indicative of the index of the row within the entire set of rows for the entire grid or table
19:48:47 <richardschwerdtfeger> 3. Due to 1 and 2 rowgroups have no impact on the values for aria-rowcount and aria-rowindex
19:48:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> 4. So, a rowgroup will have no impact on context with respect to row count. So, if it is focusable (has a tabindex attribute) or it has an ARIA global attribute applied we will give a role of "group" for MSAA based platforms or UIA, ATK/ATSPI will make it a ROLE_PANEL otherwise it will not be mapped.
19:49:41 <joanie> JS: The mapping table entry for rowgroup currently treats it as if it's a rowgroup with nothing else on it. I need to add in an "if" clause.
19:49:59 <joanie> JS: This is about the core mapping spec.
19:50:17 <joanie> JS: I will take what you've written and use it as a guide for the text I will write.
19:50:23 <joanie> RS: I'll send this text to Alex.
19:50:29 <joanie> (Group agrees)
19:51:25 <clown> s/use it as a guide for the text I will write./use it as a guide for the text I will write for the mapping spec entry for rowgroup/
19:51:52 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1.
19:51:52 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements." taken up [from clown]
19:51:59 <clown> action-1373?
19:51:59 <trackbot> action-1373 -- Cynthia Shelly to Create a test case for when aria-posinset and aria-setsize are provided explicitly on some but not all elements. -- due 2015-03-24 -- OPEN
19:51:59 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1373
19:52:12 <joanie> JS: This is Cynthia's action. I think we decided to come back to it this week.
19:52:24 <joanie> JS: It's to create a test case/file.
19:52:33 <joanie> CS: Leave it overdue.
19:52:51 <joanie> JS: This might be relevant to the rowindex, etc.
19:53:03 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 3
19:53:03 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1590: (Joseph/James) Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array." taken up [from clown]
19:53:09 <clown> action-1590?
19:53:09 <trackbot> action-1590 -- James Craig to Confirm that the AXAPI mapping of aria-owns is AXOwns array -- due 2015-02-27 -- OPEN
19:53:09 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1590
19:53:15 <joanie> JS: I sent email to James.
19:53:31 <joanie> JS: This is about if you use aria-owns, the AX API mapping is an array.
19:53:49 <joanie> JS: I happened to be testing something else and discovered there's an AXOwns array.
19:54:03 <joanie> JS: So I've emailed James to get confirmation.
19:54:22 <clown> AXLinkedUIElements
19:54:49 <joanie> s/an array/the AXLinkedUIElements array/
19:58:10 <joanie> Topic: Placeholder discussion
19:58:18 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
19:58:18 <joanie> BG: Have you followed the discussion on the list.
19:58:27 <joanie> RS: I haven't had time yet.
19:58:37 <joanie> JS: I've seen it, but I haven't made up my mind yet.
19:58:54 <joanie> RS: WCAG says you should not use it as a label.
19:59:12 <joanie> BG: What's messing up my testing is that placeholder is in the name calculation before title.
19:59:27 <joanie> BG: So if you have both title and placeholder, the placeholder is used; not the title.
19:59:56 <joanie> JS: I'm guessing Steve based this on observing what happens in the practice. (?)
20:00:16 <joanie> BG: But in the accessibility tree, even when the placeholder text is gone, the label remains the placeholder.
20:05:39 <MichaelC> MichaelC has joined #aapi
20:05:46 <joanie_> joanie_ has joined #aapi
20:05:59 <joanie_> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Mar/0132.html
20:07:17 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:07:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:08:16 <richardschwerdtfeger> RRSAgent, make log public
20:08:47 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:09:12 <joanie> Zakim, part
20:09:12 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, cyns
20:09:12 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
20:09:28 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:09:28 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:11:23 <joanie> present- cyns
20:11:52 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:11:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:13:06 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop
20:16:24 <joanie> regrets+ David_Bolter
20:16:26 <joanie> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:16:26 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/24-aapi-minutes.html joanie
20:16:39 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop