13:55:03 RRSAgent has joined #tt 13:55:03 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-tt-irc 13:55:05 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:55:05 Zakim has joined #tt 13:55:07 Zakim, this will be TTML 13:55:07 ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 5 minutes 13:55:08 Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference 13:55:08 Date: 19 March 2015 14:00:31 glenn has joined #tt 14:01:10 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started 14:01:17 +pal 14:01:32 +glenn 14:01:41 +nigel 14:02:01 Present: pal, glenn, nigel 14:02:32 Regrets: Frans, mike 14:02:34 chair: nigel 14:02:58 Regrets+ jdsmith 14:04:35 Topic: this meeting 14:04:39 group: no AOB 14:05:29 Topic: Action Items 14:05:43 action-364? 14:05:43 action-364 -- Glenn Adams to Add paragraph in intro that summarizes changes from ttml1 (comment from tm) -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN 14:05:43 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/364 14:06:47 glenn: No progress on this one. This needs to be done for the WD for wide review. 14:06:57 ... This can be pushed back more. 14:08:23 nigel: I've added a comment and pushed it back to 17th April to be more in keeping with the updated 14:08:25 ... timeline for TTML2. 14:08:36 action-378? 14:08:36 action-378 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Draft smpte request including dispositions from action-369 and backgroundcolor initial value question -- due 2015-03-05 -- OPEN 14:08:36 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/378 14:09:03 pal has joined #tt 14:09:17 nigel: Mike sent an email to the reflector shortly before this meeting suggesting that removing 14:09:34 ... the initial value constraints from IMSC 1 would be a reasonable idea, which would mean we 14:09:44 ... don't need to make any requests from SMPTE about that part of the action. 14:10:25 pal: I've done some informal polling. There's the initial value issue and also ttp:frameRate and ttp:frameRateMultiplier 14:10:40 ... being tied to the related video object, and also rounding rules that were left from CFF. 14:11:13 ... Everything I've heard is consistent with Mike's view that CFF's intention was not to reference 14:11:22 ... all of SMPTE-TT but just the backgroundImage part. 14:11:32 tmichel has joined #tt 14:11:54 ... On the frame rate issue the trend these days is to make frame rate and resolution independent 14:12:02 tm has joined #tt 14:12:11 ... TTML files, and the frame rate constraint isn't consistent with that. I haven't heard a clear reason 14:12:29 +??P19 14:12:32 ... why that's required in IMSC 1. 14:12:45 zakim, ??P19 is me 14:12:45 +tm; got it 14:13:02 nigel: On the rounding, we should maybe have one consistent set of rounding rules between IMSC1 14:13:04 ... and TTML1SE. 14:13:10 s/nigel/pal 14:13:27 pal: My proposal is to 1) remove the SMPTE default values, 2) remove the constraint on frame rate 14:13:51 ... being the same as the related video object and 3) to remove the rounding constraint difference 14:13:59 ... to make it the same in IMSC 1 as in TTML1SE. 14:14:07 Present+ tmichel 14:14:36 glenn: On the frame rate and frame rate multiplier, that was there to facilitate conversion from 14:14:51 ... frame values to second values in SMPTE continuous mode, or media mode. 14:15:36 pal: My suggestion is to make those changes, and issue a new CR. 14:16:19 tmichel: It depends how substantial the changes are - if they're just editorial then we can issue 14:16:29 ... a new CR. Since we're not on the old process we don't have to go back to LC. 14:17:08 nigel: There's a query here on how substantive the changes are - I support them, but wonder 14:17:14 ... what the criteria are. 14:17:27 tmichel: That's not well defined and is in the end down to the Director. 14:17:40 pal: The IMSC timeline allows for another CR. What would the process be for this second CR. 14:18:05 tmichel: We issue a transition request, and if the Director approves then we move to the second CR. 14:18:28 ... Then once we have enough implementations to meet the exit criteria then we can do so. We can 14:18:50 ... proceed to PR if there are no features that have not been implemented. If there are at risk 14:19:13 ... features that have not been implemented they may get removed. 14:19:20 pal: If the changes don't affect the test suite... 14:19:33 tmichel: That's a good definition for 'not substantial' changes. 14:19:49 glenn: I would not consider these changes to be substantial. I view clarification of semantics to 14:20:04 ... be editorial - for me the definition is that there is a change to syntax or normative conformance 14:20:06 ... requirements. 14:20:17 tmichel: I would agree with that. Or if it impacts implementation. 14:21:02 nigel: My understanding is that we do not need a further wide review to go CR->CR. 14:21:13 pal: Is there a minimum period between CR and PR? 14:21:34 tmichel: To exit CR you do have to put an earliest possible date, but you can also remain in CR for 14:21:43 ... years if you'd rather wait for implementations. 14:22:02 pal: I propose to make those changes, and other changes, and prepare a list of the delta since the 14:22:04 ... current CR. 14:22:09 ... How does that sound? 14:22:16 nigel: Sounds good to me. 14:22:18 tmichel: +1. 14:22:35 tmichel: If you do label those changes, mention them as substantive or editorial. 14:22:42 pal: For now I will just list them without labelling them. 14:25:24 Action: pal Create IMSC 1 issues for removing initial value constraints, rounding definitions different to TTML1 and frame rate relationship to video 14:25:26 Created ACTION-380 - Create imsc 1 issues for removing initial value constraints, rounding definitions different to ttml1 and frame rate relationship to video [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-03-26]. 14:25:40 pal: I think we no longer need a communication to SMPTE on initial value history 14:26:12 Action: pal Prepare new list of changes to IMSC 1 since CR1. 14:26:12 Created ACTION-381 - Prepare new list of changes to imsc 1 since cr1. [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-03-26]. 14:27:07 pal: I haven't created the draft wording for the SMPTE liaison yet - I need to unfold all the comments 14:27:15 nigel: Probably best if I can pull that all together. 14:28:45 glenn: I don't have any further comments on the Action-369 thread 14:28:47 Action: nigel Summarise Action-369 end point 14:28:47 Created ACTION-382 - Summarise action-369 end point [on Nigel Megitt - due 2015-03-26]. 14:29:10 Action-379? 14:29:10 Action-379 -- Nigel Megitt to Obtain png images for #linepadding and #multirowalign test cases. -- due 2015-03-19 -- OPEN 14:29:10 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/379 14:29:56 nigel: I've been in touch with Andreas about this, and also verified that we do need separate images 14:30:14 ... for this because the test cases aren't in the referenced EBU document. This is ongoing. 14:30:29 Topic: F2F 14:30:38 nigel: I think more people have joined now. 14:30:51 https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/F2F-april-2015 14:32:01 nigel: We now have 7 attendees. 14:32:54 nigel: I suspect the first item on the agenda will be to work out the agenda scheduling! 14:33:58 nigel: We have the opportunity to discuss both TTML and also WebVTT issues over the 2 days, 14:34:17 ... and Dave Singer has invited the CG to attend in person or maybe by dialling in. 14:35:07 Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report 14:35:24 pal: I have received some feedback and committed some minor changes. 14:35:44 ... Glenn, apparently one of the TTML XSDs is missing the XML declaration line at the beginning. 14:35:53 glenn: That's possible - let me take a quick look. 14:36:13 pal: This is the ttm1-styling.xsd file 14:36:31 glenn: Yes, it's missing, but it's still valid XML. 14:36:37 pal: Apparently Xerces complains about it. 14:36:51 glenn: since the other files all have it then it should probably have it. 14:37:00 ... Looks like an editorial oversight. 14:37:07 pal: I will file an issue for this. 14:37:22 glenn: That will also prompt me to check the TTML2 schema too. 14:38:43 Topic: Issues 14:38:59 issue-289? 14:38:59 issue-289 -- For TTML created for overlay on top of video, signal the aspect ratio of the video the TTML was created for -- pending review 14:38:59 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/289 14:41:16 nigel: This was implemented in ยง14.3.2 targetAspectRatio 14:41:48 glenn: Yes, all of the EBU proposed metadata are defined there. They're still subject to 14:42:01 ... refinement and syntax. There's an editorial note to format the syntax rather than making it 14:42:09 ... an open string. That's a tbd for me to go back to the source. 14:43:22 ... We may want to cover document aspect ratio separately because there will be extra verbiage. 14:43:41 ... Including parameters. 14:45:38 nigel: I want to verify that the EBU is happy with this general approach as well. 14:48:34 nigel: In the meantime it's hard to complete the review without the syntax being complete by 14:48:38 ... definition or reference. 14:48:56 glenn: We did close off a load of SMPTE issues that had a similar objection on the basis that we 14:49:04 ... can review the editorial fixes later and raise any issues. 14:49:27 nigel: This applies to issue-289, issue-290, issue-291 and issue-292 which are all implemented 14:49:29 ... the same way. 14:50:35 close issue-289 14:50:35 Closed issue-289. 14:50:38 issue-290? 14:50:39 issue-290 -- For TTML created for overlaying on video, add ebuttm:documentTargetActiveFormatDescriptor -- pending review 14:50:39 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/290 14:50:46 close issue-290 14:50:46 Closed issue-290. 14:50:48 issue-291 14:50:48 issue-291 -- Document Intended Target Bar Data -- pending review 14:50:48 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/291 14:50:54 close issue-291 14:50:54 Closed issue-291. 14:50:58 issue-292 14:50:58 issue-292 -- Specify target formats for which the TTML has been authored for easy conversion -- pending review 14:50:58 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/292 14:51:30 close issue-292 14:51:30 Closed issue-292. 14:51:44 issue-353? 14:51:44 issue-353 -- Normatively define short code processorProfiles parameter -- pending review 14:51:44 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/353 14:52:47 glenn: I marked this as a duplicate of issue-351 14:52:57 nigel: I don't agree - it's a pre-requisite for issue-351 14:53:00 reopen issue-353 14:53:00 Re-opened issue-353. 14:53:16 issue-353: This is not a duplicate of issue-351 but is a pre-requisite for it. 14:53:16 Notes added to issue-353 Normatively define short code processorProfiles parameter. 14:53:28 issue-359? 14:53:28 issue-359 -- Add support for font kerning enable/disable -- pending review 14:53:28 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/359 14:54:28 glenn: This is similar to other properties that are on p and span like fontStyle. It comes from a 14:54:43 ... usage in the LambdaCap system in Japan that allows kerning to be switched on or off. I have no 14:55:20 ... data on how often it is used. Kerning is the other side of the coin from letter spacing so they go together. 14:55:48 ... In Japan it would only be used for roman characters (romaji). 14:56:40 glenn: There is a CSS property in the fonts module of the same name, with the same semantics. 14:56:46 close issue-359 14:56:47 Closed issue-359. 14:56:56 issue-364? 14:56:56 issue-364 -- Relax constraint between the extents of the root container and the dimensions of the related video object frame -- pending review 14:56:56 http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/364 14:58:19 pal: This has been done for a while - it was done after the CR but is already in the test suite. 14:58:36 ... It was the response to Simon Hailes' comment. 14:59:23 ... The general idea is to make it possible for authors to be able to create resolution independent files. 14:59:47 close issue-364 14:59:47 Closed issue-364. 15:00:01 pal: This is one of the changes I'll be listing prior to publishing a new CR. 15:00:32 nigel: We've just closed all the pending review issues! And we're out of time, this is a good point to end on. 15:01:00 -glenn 15:01:15 nigel: Thanks everyone, see you at the same time next week. [adjourns meeting] 15:01:29 -nigel 15:01:42 rrsagent, make logs public 15:01:47 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:01:47 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:03:22 Regrets+ atai2 15:04:05 s/rules between IMSC1/rules between IMSC1 and TTML1SE 15:04:11 s/... and TTML1SE./ 15:06:07 i/Topic: Issues/Issue-376 captures this. 15:07:14 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:07:14 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:08:14 ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics 15:08:15 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:08:15 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-tt-minutes.html nigel 15:16:16 nigel has joined #tt 15:16:20 -tm 15:22:52 nigel_ has joined #tt 15:23:27 -pal 15:23:28 SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended 15:23:28 Attendees were pal, glenn, nigel, tm 16:05:28 glenn has joined #tt 16:06:51 glenn_ has joined #tt 16:14:31 nigel has joined #tt 16:28:58 Zakim has left #tt