12:58:37 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub-aria
12:58:37 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-dpub-aria-irc
12:58:39 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
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12:58:41 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
12:58:41 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot
12:58:42 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
12:58:42 <trackbot> Date: 19 March 2015
12:59:40 <janina> zakim, this will be 2742#
12:59:40 <Zakim> I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, janina
12:59:48 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #dpub-aria
12:59:57 <janina> zakim, call janina-mobile
12:59:57 <Zakim> sorry, janina, I don't know what conference this is
12:59:58 <MichaelC> zakim, list conferences
12:59:59 <Zakim> I see Team_(newsv)12:30Z, Team_Global(review)8:00AM, WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM, Team_(finance)13:00Z active and no others scheduled to start in the next 15 minutes
13:00:07 <MichaelC> zakim, this will be aria
13:00:07 <Zakim> ok, MichaelC, I see WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM already started
13:00:08 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
13:00:18 <janina> zakim, call janina-mobile
13:00:18 <Zakim> ok, janina; the call is being made
13:00:20 <Zakim> +Janina
13:00:34 <Zakim> +??P10
13:01:01 <Zakim> +ShaneM
13:01:49 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane
13:01:56 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:01:56 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
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13:03:34 <richardschwerdtfeger> Pagination is done dynamically for reflowable epubs – basically the reading system renders the whole document as a single page behind the scenes and then displays that rendered content by portions that will fit the viewport – so an abstract (or any content) may span across these virtual pages but remain a single navigable unit of content behind the scenes. These are the documents we’re primarily targeting for the roles.
13:03:35 <richardschwerdtfeger> 
13:03:37 <richardschwerdtfeger> Fixed-layouts are another story. In an fxl publication, the author has to handle the problem of the hard document breaks in the middle of paragraphs, lists, sections, etc. Typically this is done by stripping container structures like sections and working at the text level. (Indesign uses divs and spans to position content on the page, for example, so there often is no structure to begin with.)
13:03:39 <richardschwerdtfeger> 
13:03:40 <richardschwerdtfeger> My understanding of aria landmarks is that they are not what we equate with sections that go in the table of contents. Forewords, chapters, abstracts, glossary, appendixes and all the major sections of an epub are simple content structures of a document that you should navigate to by the table of contents. If we make abstract a landmark, then a reader could jump past a lot of important content for no particularly good reason.
13:03:42 <richardschwerdtfeger> 
13:03:43 <richardschwerdtfeger> And apologies for rambling on, but additional confusion for me is that what we consider landmarks are important structural sections like the table of contents, index, glossary, etc., but these are typically dispersed across multiple documents. Assigning as an aria landmark role isn’t helpful in that case, as they are not navigable to within a single document. But I suppose they could be if you create a single document publication. But then
13:03:44 <richardschwerdtfeger> shouldn’t we be listing many more sections as landmarks, and how do we deal with publications often containing more than one of these?
13:03:45 <richardschwerdtfeger> 
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13:04:03 <Zakim> +pkra
13:04:35 <janina> Thumbs down on fixed layout!
13:06:25 <tzviya> rich: to me, ARIA landmarks don't make a lot of sense in the context of a book
13:06:53 <tzviya> ...should we have the concept of book landmarks?
13:07:10 <tzviya> tzviya: is the point to generate a book TOC?
13:07:10 <janina> q+
13:07:47 <tzviya> ack janina
13:07:48 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:07:48 <Zakim> Janina was not muted, janina
13:08:55 <tzviya> Janina: it's very useful to be able to go to a list and access the desired element and return the place on list
13:11:46 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:11:46 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
13:13:02 <tzviya> tzviya: in summary: requirements are that there is a navigational elements that allows user to access list of terms
13:13:38 <tzviya> ...and it would be great for browsers to allow user to return to same point in list that exited
13:14:32 <ShaneM> q+ to suggest another example of a guide
13:14:56 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:14:56 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
13:14:59 <tzviya> ack ShaneM
13:14:59 <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to suggest another example of a guide
13:16:22 <tzviya> ShaneM: Another example would be books with multiple guides, e.g. abbreviated toc for different audiences
13:16:38 <tzviya> Janina: annotations guide
13:17:17 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:17:17 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
13:17:20 <tzviya> Rich: superclass is definitely Regions, want to know when enter and exit
13:18:09 <tzviya> ...What should be included in Guide/Landmarks?
13:19:07 <tzviya> ...Would there ever be a generic region within a book?
13:19:14 <tzviya> Tzviya: yes
13:19:40 <tzviya> Rich: Should there be something between Region and these roles?
13:20:35 <tzviya> ...For example, what should Superclass of chapter be?
13:20:58 <tzviya> ShaneM: I don't think we want to introduce new abstract classes
13:21:08 <tzviya> Rich: Would you call these landmarks?
13:23:41 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:23:41 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
13:23:48 <tzviya> ...role="section" is largely ignored
13:27:26 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:27:26 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
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13:27:41 <tzviya> Rich: recommends that all are superclass Region
13:27:53 <tzviya> ShaneM: Region is subclass of Section
13:28:01 <tzviya> ...it has no specific states and properties
13:28:25 <tzviya> ...semantically region and section are the same
13:29:55 <tzviya> Rich: Would it be more meaningful to make chapter a subclass of Landmark
13:30:48 <tzviya> ShaneM: that means that it inherits the semantic behavior of landmarks
13:31:19 <tzviya> ...Is a chapter always a landmark?
13:31:52 <tzviya> tzviya: it depends how AT interprets landmarks
13:32:42 <tzviya> Rich: in ARIA 1.1 elements with role="landmark" have subclass of section
13:33:05 <tzviya> ...not all sections can be landmarks
13:33:19 <tzviya> s/sections/<section>s
13:34:06 <tzviya> ...authors must give each element with role="region" a brief label
13:34:30 <tzviya> <section role="chapter" label="foo">
13:34:59 <tzviya> s/lable/aria-label
13:35:37 <tzviya> in order for elements to be in AT-landmarks must include aria-label
13:37:01 <tzviya> it doesn't make much of a difference if elements like glossary, etc if it's landmarks or region
13:37:02 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1
13:38:04 <tzviya> tzviya: what is your recommendation?
13:38:19 <tzviya> rich: make them landmarks
13:39:20 <tzviya> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/dpub.html
13:39:30 <pkra> huh?
13:39:35 <pkra> I'm here.
13:40:26 <tzviya> abstract: recommend section
13:41:44 <tzviya> debate about meaning of contentInfo
13:42:00 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:42:00 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
13:43:21 <tzviya> Rich: contentInfo is a subClass of landmark. If don't want abstract to be a landmark, change to section
13:43:23 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:43:23 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
13:44:05 <tzviya> afterword < landmark
13:44:37 <tzviya> s/</subclass
13:46:21 <tzviya> bibliography, could also add superclass of landmark (see http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#grid for example)
13:47:31 <tzviya> rich: a required descendant of bibliography is biblioentry
13:47:39 <tzviya> ...must mention that
13:47:51 <tzviya> chapter superclass = landmark
13:50:01 <tzviya> ShaneM: suggests Cover superclass role="none" or landmark (with longdesc)
13:50:23 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:50:23 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
13:50:31 <MichaelC> ack me
13:51:57 <tzviya> epilogue could be landmark
13:52:07 <janina> zakim, mute me
13:52:07 <Zakim> Janina should now be muted
13:52:11 <tzviya> fwd landmark
13:54:37 <janina> zakim, unmute me
13:54:37 <Zakim> Janina should no longer be muted
13:54:59 <ShaneM> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/aria/aria.html#complementary
13:55:02 <tzviya> Rich: help is now "compelementary"
13:55:15 <tzviya> compelementary is a subclass of landmark
13:55:39 <tzviya> consider making this region, so that it's not a landmark
13:55:58 <tzviya> ShaneM: help is a very generic name, concerned about naming
13:57:33 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
13:57:56 <tzviya> Rich: recommends "note" instead
13:58:40 <ShaneM> "usetip?" "tip?" "protip?"  "bagel"
13:58:54 <tzviya> ...we can leave this on as placeholder
13:59:04 <tzviya> ...TS to add issues about naming
13:59:17 <pkra> gotta run.
13:59:24 <Zakim> -pkra
14:00:29 <janina> zakim, drop janina
14:00:30 <Zakim> Janina is being disconnected
14:00:30 <Zakim> -Janina
14:00:47 <Zakim> -Michael_Cooper
14:01:29 <Zakim> -Tzviya
14:01:31 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
14:01:59 <Zakim> -ShaneM
14:02:01 <Zakim> WAI_ARIA TF(ARIA)9:00AM has ended
14:02:01 <Zakim> Attendees were Tzviya, Rich_Schwerdtfeger, Janina, Michael_Cooper, ShaneM, Susann_Keohane, pkra
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14:02:10 <tzviya> rrsagent, make minutes
14:02:10 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/19-dpub-aria-minutes.html tzviya
14:15:43 <tzviya> topic: DPUB-ARIA TF 20150319
14:33:08 <tzviya> rrsagent, make records public
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