00:03:41 jasnell has joined #social 00:07:19 almereyda has joined #social 00:20:02 almereyda_ has joined #social 00:22:23 bengo has joined #social 00:35:38 the_frey has joined #social 00:55:14 Arnaud has joined #social 01:00:23 Arnaud1 has joined #social 01:04:30 trackbot, end meeting 01:04:30 Zakim, list attendees 01:04:38 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 01:04:38 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-minutes.html trackbot 01:04:39 RRSAgent, bye 01:04:39 I see 4 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-actions.rdf : 01:04:39 ACTION: harry to set-up a github for AS2.0 testing (whatever that ends up being, we'll need a github!) [1] 01:04:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-irc#T14-03-22 01:04:39 ACTION: pelf to Publish AS2.0 data on one's own website [2] 01:04:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-irc#T14-22-32 01:04:39 ACTION: eprodom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those exmaples [3] 01:04:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-irc#T14-29-45 01:04:39 ACTION: eprodrom to extract the examples from the main documents, pick properties and put together a test for those examples [4] 01:04:39 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/17-social-irc#T14-33-12 13:18:13 RRSAgent has joined #social 13:18:13 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-irc 13:18:15 RRSAgent, make logs public 13:18:15 Zakim has joined #social 13:18:17 Zakim, this will be SOCL 13:18:17 I do not see a conference matching that name scheduled within the next hour, trackbot 13:18:18 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 13:18:18 Date: 18 March 2015 13:18:51 don't think we've dialed in yet 13:19:00 zakim, code? 13:19:00 sorry, fjh, I don't know what conference this is 13:19:23 zakim, this is socl 13:19:23 sorry, Arnaud, I do not see a conference named 'socl' in progress or scheduled at this time 13:19:28 I tried the teleconf password but could not connect to the telephone 13:19:30 I get "this password is not valid" 13:19:36 yeah, hold on 13:19:42 thx 13:20:28 SimonTennant1 has joined #social 13:20:59 can people in the room hear us? 13:21:10 no 13:22:17 nice placement of cameras 13:22:21 harry has joined #social 13:22:28 yes, we can hear room much better as yesterday 13:22:41 Zakim, space for 5 for 600 minutes? 13:22:42 ok, harry; conference Team_(social)13:22Z scheduled with code 7625 (SOCL) for 600 minutes until 2322Z 13:22:57 Team_(social)13:22Z has now started 13:23:03 +[IPcaller] 13:23:07 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:23:07 +fjh; got it 13:23:08 room looks and sounds good! 13:23:46 the nice thing about being here is that I could just lie down on a bed and still participate 13:23:50 no, that audio worked well! 13:24:04 please unmute it back :D 13:24:07 yes, you have been muted 13:24:10 -fjh 13:24:12 Team_(social)13:22Z has ended 13:24:12 Attendees were fjh 13:24:28 me and elf can have a parallel meeting in the meantime 13:25:17 I could hear the room for a second 13:25:34 Team_(social)13:22Z has now started 13:25:41 +??P13 13:25:56 +[IPcaller] 13:26:01 zakim, ipcaller is me 13:26:01 +fjh; got it 13:26:24 +confroom 13:26:32 ok, we're on the bridge now 13:27:22 -elf-pavlik 13:27:46 +bblfish 13:28:51 -bblfish 13:29:18 tilgovi has joined #social 13:29:20 the phone is working 13:29:30 now we can hear someone type very heavily 13:29:32 my proposal is that we focus on IG and WG relationship until the rest of the crew shows up 13:30:14 scribenick 13:30:19 scribenick bigbluehat 13:30:20 I did not realise the audio had been moved, but there is a lot of background noise on talky.io 13:30:25 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories 13:30:37 scribenick: bigbluehat 13:30:42 Sandro are we hearing you type? 13:30:44 topic: User stories 13:30:44 AnnB has joined #social 13:30:45 in talky 13:31:10 harry: will the interest group be able to help us understand add them to our API requirements 13:31:23 s/them/the IG user stories/ 13:31:55 +bblfish 13:32:10 ok back on telephone, can hear better 13:32:38 ah ok. let me try again. 13:32:39 AnnB: I think what I'm hearing is that your asking the IG to clarify their user stories 13:32:42 -bblfish 13:33:07 there's a larger group that have several +1's 13:33:13 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Sorting_user_stories 13:33:13 there are many with minor objections 13:33:51 AnnB: there are 19 or so about which there is consensus 13:34:11 AnnB: the IG can work on clarifying the ones about which there is some debate 13:34:17 PROPOSAL: We start with the user-stories with complete consensus against all the current API candidates, and then the IG goes to get clarity on the rest. If clarity is gained, then the IG can propose them to the WG. 13:34:22 ben_thatmustbeme: starting with just the top 7 is too limited 13:35:08 sandro: the idea is that the IG will take the lead in clarifying the user stories? 13:35:38 AnnB: the IG will need to involve the WG members in the clarification process 13:36:02 AnnB: get the people who care about it, clarify it, "sandro thinks this" "randall thinks that" and then document it 13:36:14 harry: if it's a very clearly defined task, it will get more involvement from the WG 13:36:23 s/WG/IG 13:36:38 harry: and once that's complete, it should be clearer what how the WG can proceed with testing 13:36:45 melvster1 has joined #social 13:36:50 q+ 13:36:52 tantek has joined #social 13:37:10 ack bblfish 13:37:33 AnnB, let's set date next week for Use Case TF call? 13:37:34 you're on the phone, aren't you? 13:37:41 can you tell us more about what you are doing at the IG? 13:37:47 henry? 13:38:34 good morning #social 13:38:39 Zakim, unmute bblfish 13:38:39 sorry, harry, I do not know which phone connection belongs to bblfish 13:39:03 +bblfish 13:39:09 AnnB: the group started collecting user scenarios 13:39:19 ...everyone was supposed to transfer them to a common template 13:39:25 ...a lot of content never got transered 13:39:39 s/transered/transfered/ 13:39:54 ...which started the WG working on "tweet form" use cases 13:40:17 ...there is a task force looking at architecture 13:40:43 ...there was an earlier workshop that included a block diagram 13:41:03 harry: it was an advisory board task force 13:41:25 ...we do have a diagram that could be the basis of an architecture description 13:41:32 ...there will be a lot of vocabularies 13:41:38 ...that will have small but important user communities 13:41:50 eprodrom has joined #social 13:41:52 q+ 13:41:59 ...that should still be supported by the vocabulary task force work 13:42:32 ack eprodrom 13:42:32 ...asparagus farmers market use case 13:42:54 I'm skeptical of use of any edge case use case (farmers / asparagus) to drive anything in the WG 13:43:10 eprodrom: is the social IG tasked with looking at other parts of the social world that the W3C should be looking to charter WGs for 13:43:19 AnnB: the IG is looking into that 13:43:29 harry: that may be being addressed more in the future 13:43:35 I am in favor of those use cases: not that we have to implement them, but a protocol that can be shown to implement them is a better protocol 13:43:49 Social Web "block" architecture: https://www.w3.org/wiki/images/5/5c/Social_diagram_v4a_May_7_2012.pdf 13:44:08 eprodrom: I would be concerned that the IG would spend time back filling what the WG has already done 13:44:12 AnnB: I agree 13:44:14 I quite skeptical and a few others are too about the need for a federation protocol. 13:44:16 I am in favor of focusing majority of our time on discussing common consumer / user use-cases. 13:44:25 eprodrom: looking at parts of the diagram, and filling in what's missing would be best 13:44:46 AnnB: of the 90 use cases, many of them mentioned missing or unclear information 13:44:48 In general I applaud skepticism about the need for any particular new protocol or format. 13:44:57 good idea by AnnB 13:45:00 ...someone mentioned that we could pull those out and work through those concerns 13:45:17 ...which would be helpful 13:45:24 I'll be happy to participate, and this seems like a good role for the CG 13:45:35 tantek: a lot of the feedback was that some of them were duplicates 13:45:53 AnnB: goal is to get through the 50 or so about which there were questions 13:45:55 q? 13:46:16 tantek: I'd like to see definitions that include statements of what's in use today to accomplish things 13:46:38 simple diagram on how IG could coordinate various CGs working on *domain specific* vocabulary requirements http://awesomescreenshot.com/0cc4noy4da 13:46:47 tantek: ideally with links to the tools that are being used to accomplish those things today 13:47:21 tantek: if we can solve other edge cases, even better...but let's start with what's being done today 13:47:23 q+ 13:47:37 q+ 13:47:44 Arnaud: the people who proposed the stories should have the burden of documenting them in that way 13:47:49 ack sandro 13:47:50 klaranet has joined #social 13:47:55 q+ 13:47:58 sandro: AnnB asked what would be helpful for the IG to do 13:48:14 ...what I think would be really really helpful would be to get other people interested and helping 13:48:20 deiu has joined #social 13:48:24 q+ 13:48:30 AnnB: I don't think there are many 13:48:47 ...not that have their own internally crafted technology 13:48:57 or sharepoint, or yammer, or jive, or IBM connections 13:49:11 harry: thoughtworks mentioned that they also build internal social networks for enterprise 13:49:37 q? 13:49:54 there's also VMWare, Socialcast, SAP Jam, SugarCRM, Jive, Atlassian, Yammer, Sharepoint 13:50:02 AnnB: we've tried IBM connections. it'd be interesting to know what other enterprises use IBM connections, etc. 13:50:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82976&oldid=82972 13:50:14 klaranet has joined #social 13:50:19 sandro: does this IG need W3C invited access? 13:50:21 harry: yes. 13:50:45 AnnB: I'd love it if there were more big companies represented in the IG 13:51:03 I'd love to help big companies do this 13:51:05 ack eprodrom 13:51:08 sandro: let's do a lot more outreach 13:51:32 s/let's/we need (from the IG)/ 13:51:32 eprodrom: the user stories that we have from the IG are specific to the API. there are many more user stories addressing in the social space 13:51:41 ...there are not yet federation user stories for example 13:51:50 ...there are a lot more stories needed in this space 13:52:10 I am not sure how you distinguish social apis and federated apis 13:52:15 ack bblfish 13:52:16 ...the asparagus one came up...it's interesting...but that's not one we thought we could handle in this version of the API...or that we wanted to really attack 13:52:17 we also don't have stories for *querying* social data 13:52:52 bblfish: there's always going to be one part that's completely new...we want something that works across silos 13:53:07 ...this is why you won't find a lot of systems doing this...because they're always thinking internally 13:53:11 ...it's really very uninteresting 13:53:14 q+ to mention social web software that works across silos 13:53:17 q+ 13:53:24 I think we have agreement here 13:53:36 ...you have to be about the size of an enterprise before it becomes interesting 13:53:47 I think EvanP used to have a start-up that did this sort of thing, i.e. status.net 13:53:56 eprodrom: are you serious? there's a lot of these...yammer, etc. 13:54:05 melvster has joined #social 13:54:07 ...it doesn't make since to say we're only building this for distributed social networks 13:54:30 bblfish: there are a lot of faux social networks 13:54:33 That being said, we do agree on distribution is a good thing, but it's not a trivial problem 13:54:35 ...that the data gets split around 13:54:37 http://bblfish.net/tmp/2015/03/10/OuiSharetechnicalcomplexity.html 13:54:41 I'll explain the federation next 13:54:56 ...in issue-19... 13:55:05 ...there is an organization that works with a lot of other organizations 13:55:07 https://trello.com/b/YWRVp9Cu/ouisharetools 13:55:34 ...they're a lightweight company that uses 60 different tools that are not interoperable with the data fragmented about the place 13:55:49 ...the point is that if we only look at what exists, we're only going to duplicate the problem 13:55:57 ...the pain the social networking people are feeling 13:56:06 ...they're going to have to heal the fragmentation these people are feeling 13:56:10 I agree that looking at only existing solutions is not enough, but I'm worried that a focus on non-existent solutions may not be super-productive. 13:56:22 can we cut down on the monologues today? 13:56:22 ...we need to allow these things to tie these things together 13:56:27 At least at this stage in the WG. 13:56:37 +1 aaronpk 13:56:37 ...tantek was saying I want these stories to be about things that exist 13:56:40 ack harry 13:56:45 PROPOSED: all speaking turns limited to 1 minute 13:56:46 ...if we do that, we only solve problems we know about 13:56:53 I'm going to take a walk for a minute 13:56:53 +1 13:57:14 harry: when we were chartering this working group the main reason was the open social crud 13:57:25 ...we do think it's important to have common interfaces 13:58:02 ...the reason why we separated this...while a lot of the distributed stories that include authentication, etc. actually get very difficult 13:58:18 ...pubsubhubbub and others have proven that they're harder problems to solve 13:58:28 ...the social wg may not be able to solve these problems in one go 13:58:39 ...happy to have the IG look at these other areas 13:58:47 ...and have the WG focus on the current ones 13:59:01 thanks harry for the context for why the distinction was made 13:59:04 ack tantek 13:59:04 tantek, you wanted to mention social web software that works across silos 13:59:11 AnnB: to be clear, I support exploring these, but not sure I have the technical skills to lead that 13:59:27 q+ 13:59:34 tantek: I wanted to +1 eprodrom's statement that there are many other social networks in usage in many places 13:59:45 ...if you don't think something exist, ask 13:59:46 q- 13:59:47 So I'm going to point out why federation is hard: 13:59:53 1) Authentication 13:59:59 2) Groups and Access Control 14:00:07 3) Queuing/re-ordering/timing 14:00:14 4) Push/pull architectures 14:00:14 ...if you really don't think something exists, rather than claiming something exists...there are experts here in many other fields...does anyone (of them) know about X, Y, or Z? 14:00:22 5) overload of small servers 14:00:25 ...we don't actually have proof of non-existence 14:00:27 (i.e. scalability) 14:00:46 ...bblfish claimed that there is no social network software that doesn't work across silos 14:00:54 Hisotically this has really caused problems for Salmon Protocol, Pubsubhububub, resulting in Magic Sigs, etc. 14:01:01 q+ 14:01:03 ...that's false, the indieweb work does work across sites and communicates with the silos 14:01:29 ...pretty much all of these implementations support POSSE to federate to the silos 14:01:30 I don't believe the LDP has solved these in any way that at least I've seen in a live demo or with scalability, although I know they are working on it. 14:01:40 yes, though I was not interested in communicating with silos, but linking the silos together 14:01:46 ...or use backfeed...taking the interactions on the silos, bringing them back into the local sites 14:01:49 I also know the IndieWeb community has made progress (i.e. what Tantek) has said 14:01:51 so that there would be no more silos 14:01:51 s/local/personal 14:02:08 I would love to know evan's take on this, as he has most experience in coding previous round of solutions 14:02:10 elf-pavlik: how's that? 14:02:20 ...those are all provable and inspectable 14:02:26 ack AnnB 14:02:26 great 14:02:33 aaronpk++ sandro++ 14:02:34 good! this is the logitech cam 14:02:36 aaronpk has 744 karma 14:02:36 AnnB: obviously my experience is in a huge company 14:02:41 q+ 14:02:49 ...I'm curious how many people are involved in the indieweb...how big of a community that is 14:03:16 tantek: you can measure by the IRC participation...or the number of peopled editing the wiki 14:03:24 ...or deploying on their own sites 14:03:33 ...known or wordpress+ indieweb plugins 14:03:36 ...or more custom things 14:03:40 ...number in the thousands 14:04:02 ...it's part of why we're working to keep things as simple as possible 14:04:08 ...to get thousands of deployments 14:04:27 q+ 14:04:30 zakim has a feature time time speakers. we can set it to 1 minute... or 2 minutes.... 14:04:38 http://ouishare.net/en/communities very established in Paris 14:04:39 AnnB: what are some of the other things going on in Europe, mid-sized companies, etc? 14:04:55 ack harry 14:04:57 elf has done great work getting diaspora involved 14:04:57 tantek: there's a lot of these groups not represented 14:04:57 sandro++ 14:04:58 http://the-federation.info/ 14:04:58 3 minutes / topic? 14:05:00 AnnB: like all of China 14:05:00 sandro has 8 karma 14:05:09 zakim, give speakers 3 minutes 14:05:09 ok, sandro 14:05:12 tantek: there are lots of diaspora users in europe 14:05:13 W3C's efforts by the European Commission 14:05:15 http://dcentproject.eu/ 14:05:17 ack harry 14:05:33 (it might only work for people who were on the queue) 14:05:33 harry: there are lots of European projects funded by groups within the EU 14:05:57 ...all expect for their future government efforts they want better social specifications 14:06:01 ...they're not coders 14:06:18 ...we do have a lot of European governments that are members 14:06:26 AnnB: why aren't they involved? 14:06:37 harry: I tell them we don't have code yet...and the timing is bad for them 14:06:39 q- 14:06:43 ...I have invited some of them as invited experts 14:06:46 +1 change the time 14:06:47 AnnB: well let's change the time 14:07:06 zakim++ on keeping us on task ! 14:07:09 zakim has 1 karma 14:07:12 harry: point is that another group growing in size is governments local and otherwise 14:07:14 q+ 14:07:18 q- 14:07:18 ack bblfish 14:07:21 ...there are more people watching than it appears 14:07:38 UK govt Innovation advisors Nesta, Finland, Iceland, Spain (Podemos), all expect to use some version of the API and ActivityStreams at some point 14:07:45 or buy a solution from some vendor :) 14:07:58 bblfish: some of these groups are not build software they're tying them together 14:08:07 W3C funding for this project is not from membership dues but from European Commission, http://dcentproject.eu/ 14:08:09 ...what we want to remove are silos completely 14:08:17 ...one social web 14:08:18 Known is probably the best software to use to try out IndieWeb features / formats / protocols 14:08:21 ...there's know center 14:08:21 http://withknown.com/ 14:08:35 ...players of all size can communicate without any henderance 14:08:40 q+ to be clear that IndieWeb software is not dependent on silos, it works peer to peer 14:08:43 ack AnnB 14:08:52 bblfish++ for being succinct :) 14:08:53 q+ 14:08:55 AnnB: in our dreams we would get rid of silos...but it's a good goal 14:08:55 bblfish has 5 karma 14:09:07 People in Europe do find the 7:00 PM time hard and 6:00 PM time CET 14:09:08 q+ to also note that goal should be get rid of YOUR use of silos, not get rid of silos. 14:09:16 ...harry was saying there were lots of players interested in these activities 14:09:17 AnnB++ meeting in Paris :) 14:09:19 AnnB has 10 karma 14:09:22 +1 for Paris 14:09:24 We can the IG or WG meeting earlier if there's real desire. 14:09:30 ...perhaps we should have a meeting in Paris...would they come to a meeting? 14:09:32 I can get people in Paris to come to a meeting 14:09:47 ...if have of this team is going to be a meeting, maybe have a WG or IG meeting with them there 14:09:48 i can invite friends from Edgeryders https://edgeryders.eu/en/blog/shaping-the-future-of-digital-social-innovation-in-europe-what 14:10:10 harry: it is difficult to get people involved there...but we could get someone there 14:10:19 AnnB: tantek are you there? 14:10:22 +1 doing something 14:10:23 tantek: I'm there...but pretty booked 14:10:31 AnnB: I think it'd be a good time to engage people 14:10:31 I will point out I will not likely be there unless some magical money appears 14:10:40 but Wendy Seltzer can substitute 14:10:42 Arnaud: we'll talk about the meeting next 14:10:54 ...we started this discussion to discuss user stories 14:11:01 ...we mentioned that there are ones with some issues 14:11:15 ...and getting the stake holders together to clarify them 14:11:25 ack tantek 14:11:25 tantek, you wanted to be clear that IndieWeb software is not dependent on silos, it works peer to peer and to also note that goal should be get rid of YOUR use of silos, not get 14:11:25 harry, can you publish a wishlist with what your *really* need to get to that meeting? (travel tickets, accomodation, etc.) 14:11:29 ... rid of silos. 14:11:42 q+ 14:11:47 tantek: I agree with bblfish that we should not be dependant on silos 14:12:10 cool, I need to look at the indie web protocols more that do this. 14:12:12 ...on the indieweb we use webmention to communicate with each other...rather than depending on silos 14:12:20 ...I don't think it's reasonable to try and get rid of silos 14:12:29 ACTION: hhalpin to discuss with rigo travel budget to see if more funding can be found for a Paris event 14:12:30 Created ACTION-51 - Discuss with rigo travel budget to see if more funding can be found for a paris event [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-25]. 14:12:31 ...it makes us look laughable to propose that 14:12:44 ack eprodrom 14:12:46 ...if you want to get rid of silos, try and eliminate your use of silos...by whatever means you can 14:12:46 yes not really trying to get "rid" of the silos, but more allow a technology that makes silos link into the web. 14:12:53 harry++ 14:12:55 q+ 14:12:55 harry has 6 karma 14:13:11 eprodrom: we're here at the W3C...looking at the list of members...including twitter, google, facebook 14:13:19 ...they're not looking for us to destroy their businesses 14:13:25 ...they're not involved here...which is fine 14:13:30 what is the goal of this topic? are there more valuable things we can be talking about? just asking :) 14:13:34 ...we do have a social data standard that we're laying out 14:13:44 ...companies can and should use 14:13:58 ...we're working on an API that companies can and should use to communicate together 14:14:00 facebook was part of the social web XG, they were interested in adopting activity streams and opensocial ... back in the day 14:14:08 ...and a federation protocol that they could also us 14:14:16 melvster, that's not true 14:14:27 ...what I'm unhappy about is assuming a singular community...and ignoring the other tasks to serve a specific community 14:14:30 harry: it is, check the minutes 14:14:31 David Recordon showed up for one phone call right as he got hired by Facebook 14:14:34 ...we do have a task to standardize social data 14:14:35 sorry to say, harry is correct, melvster 14:14:38 They never joined the XG 14:14:42 He did one meeting and never came back 14:14:43 ...two: to standardize social APIs 14:14:47 He is now doing cloud work. 14:14:53 ...three: if we can manage to get a federation protocol started 14:14:57 oh ok, maybe not part of the xg, but on the telecon ... the other statement is correct 14:15:03 ...if we start with changing everything...it won't happen 14:15:10 ...if we start with smaller things, then we'll get farther 14:15:12 q? 14:15:12 ack harry 14:15:15 I think the way we have any chance of getting companies outside the WG to adopting standards is as simple / minimal standards as possible. 14:15:15 ...I don't want to undercut that 14:15:26 harry: W3C has done outreach to Twitter, facebook, and Google 14:15:35 ...and some with Microsoft because of Yammer 14:15:42 ...Google was against open social 14:15:54 ...facebook has nothing to do with this group...they don't want this work at the W3C 14:16:01 yes, agree that one does not change everything, one has to lay the foundation to make it easy to cover the innumerable use cases that will appear. 14:16:03 ...twitter is interested, but they don't have an open standards advocate 14:16:12 q+ 14:16:16 ...they're continuing to watch as it evolves 14:16:39 I just wanted people to know the state of outreach 14:16:39 ...companies have resourcing issues and don't have cycles to dedicate to standards 14:16:42 ack 14:16:51 ack bblfish 14:16:52 We are doing outreach, we've done outreach to Weibo etc. 14:16:54 We plan to do more 14:16:54 bblfish: I completely agree one has to build something that can grow 14:16:59 http://lod-cloud.net 14:17:09 ...we should acomodate growth in use cases 14:17:16 ...the linked data cloud should be taken into account 14:17:20 bblfish, you should join the IG 14:17:29 ...that's another crowd of people that would be interested in our work 14:17:38 danbri1, if you have any ideas of what would be useful to Google do tell us, the question is re-occuring 14:17:40 Arnaud: let's move on 14:17:41 If they'd be interesting, bblfish, why wont they come to these meetings? 14:17:50 ...let's try and settle some dates and locations for the next meeting 14:18:07 ...the logical next meeting would be 3 months from now 14:18:08 sandro: will be interested to find out. Perhaps they were put off in one way or another 14:18:16 ...we got an invitation to participate in TPAC 14:18:27 ...for scheduling purposes we should figure that out sooner than later 14:18:29 TOPIC: Meetings 14:18:56 i would suggest to do take advantage of tpac 14:18:58 s/sandro: will/sandro, will/ 14:19:04 TPAC is Sapporo the week before Halloween 14:19:05 tantek: I propose we do meet at TPAC 14:19:08 mhh, why is Zakim reducing my speaker time even when I am not speaking? 14:19:09 Proposal: we do meet at TPAC 14:19:18 q? 14:19:19 Arnaud: many of us are going to be at these meetings anyway 14:19:25 q="" 14:19:28 ...there was discussion on the mailing list 14:19:29 queue= 14:19:35 ...there is an AC meeting in Paris 14:19:49 I discussed with W3C internally, there is some feeling that outreach and discussion with Asian members about the WG would be great. 14:19:55 bblfish, zakim just watches the queue. When the queue's not used, it's wrong. 14:19:58 ...TPAC is in Japan in October 14:20:01 q? 14:20:03 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/Candidates]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82977&oldid=82950 14:20:04 I can only do Europe, till we get strong Online Identity in place and broadly recognized :) 14:20:05 PROPOSAL: meet at TPAC 14:20:07 tantek: I want to see if we can get +1's for TPAC 14:20:11 +1 14:20:11 +1 14:20:12 +1 14:20:14 +1 14:20:16 +1 14:20:17 +1 14:20:20 +0 can't go anyways 14:20:26 TPAC is the last week of October...include Halloween in Japan 14:20:30 +1 14:20:37 ah that is far away 14:20:42 +1 14:20:54 s/include/including 14:21:11 http://www.w3.org/2015/11/TPAC/ 14:21:11 TPAC alternates between Europe, USA, and Asia 14:21:21 So next year will be Europe, then back in USA 14:21:22 AnnB: if you don't know TPAC is a cross-group meeting 14:21:37 Arnaud: there are WG meeting M-T, W is reserved for technical plenary 14:21:44 ...run as an un-conference even 14:21:48 ...on various topics 14:22:02 ...because there are many groups meeting, it's prone to cross polination 14:22:08 s/a cross-group meeting/when most WGs hold their F2F meetings, to enable cross-fertilization/ 14:22:10 ...last year we had a meeting with the Annotation WG 14:22:18 ...I totally agree that it's a very valuable event 14:22:24 q+ 14:22:25 But it is also very expensive to go to Japan 14:22:29 ack harry 14:22:38 harry: I think that's consensus on meeting at TPAC 14:22:47 ...I want to revisit the Paris thing 14:22:56 ...there will be a Future of the Web conference in Durham NC 14:23:00 ...if folks want to meet there 14:23:01 yes, I agree it looks like the Paris meeting was not debated 14:23:02 q+ 14:23:03 RESOLVED: meet at TPAC, Sapporo Japan 26-30 October 14:23:07 ...being organized by shepazu 14:23:12 ...it's not an official W3C meeting 14:23:12 +1 Paris! 14:23:16 +1 Paris 14:23:22 +1 Paris 14:23:24 harry: what are the dates for the Future of the Web thing? 14:23:32 bigbluehat, ask Doug 14:23:35 Arnaud: for Paris, do we have a preference of day? 14:23:51 tantek: puts in a note to avoid conflicts with CSS 14:24:04 ...asking the AB not to meet at TPAC 14:24:18 AB? 14:24:26 Advisory Board 14:24:33 s/AB/Advisory Board/ 14:24:46 me/ (or AnnBassetti or ArtBarstow ;-) 14:24:53 In May, there's an IWC in Germany 9/10th which is same week as AC meeting I think? 14:25:14 Arnaud: the AC meeting will be W-Th 14:25:28 Arnaud: one possibility is M-T 14:25:43 So for those new to the W3C, there's a BIG meeting called TPAC 14:25:46 for the WGs 14:25:51 and also a yearly meeting called the "AC meeting" 14:25:57 Which is Advisory Committee 14:26:00 which helps 14:26:03 and meets 14:26:09 twice a year. 14:26:16 The TP meeting is also 'Technical Plenary' 14:26:35 AnnB: several participants are going to IWC in Germany 14:26:41 q+ 14:26:46 q- 14:26:59 harry: I think rather than doing an official face-to-face, we could just do an outreach 14:27:16 AnnB: I think we should make time to bring a meeting to Europe 14:27:33 harry: I would support a meeting in Europe...even if it's a just a single day 14:27:48 Arnaud: with a one day meeting, then folks from the US won't come 14:27:57 ...I'm interested for now to schedule a F2F 14:28:13 AnnB: I propose a May 4th and 5th Paris F2F (a M&T) 14:28:18 +1 14:28:18 PROPOSED: May 4-5, in Paris 14:28:21 +1 14:28:25 -1 conflict 14:28:30 AnnB: elf-pavlik and bblfish have been on the phone for 2 days solid 14:28:33 +1 14:28:33 +1 14:28:35 +0 (depends on rigo and travel funding) 14:28:36 +1 14:28:41 +1 14:28:45 +1 14:28:45 q+ 14:28:50 q- harry 14:28:50 +1 14:28:56 0 i won't be able to be there in person 14:29:01 I would be happy to do outreach 14:29:10 how many chairs need to be present for that ? 14:29:10 -0 I won't be able to go since that's too close to my other plans 14:29:11 to get Europeans there who are interested but not W3C members 14:29:13 bblfish: it happens to be at an interesting point of time 14:29:14 -0 seems pretty soon 14:29:18 bblfish, no more dealines for demos! 14:29:21 ack bblfish 14:29:27 just no discussions *unless* demo 14:29:33 ...that would be the time of the demos 14:29:34 bblfish, that proposal for a deadline failed 14:29:51 eprodrom: plan was to have demos in the next 4 weeks for ones that exist 14:29:55 Counterproposal: Europe in July, adjacent to IndieWebCamp Edinburgh 7/25-26 14:29:57 +0 14:30:02 bblfish: when were the implementations needed to be ready by? 14:30:07 evan: 0 abstain on May 4-5 14:30:07 ...that would be a good time to demo 14:30:08 I added a countdown for 5/3 10:00pm (#5656) 14:30:14 Let's do a proposal for July 14:30:22 and then see what date has more support 14:30:23 I am also fine for July 14:30:24 I'm also fine for July, but elf-pavlik can't come to UK 14:30:29 q? 14:30:31 ack bblfish 14:30:41 -1 Edinburgh (I would not be able to get travel approval) 14:30:42 tantek: we gave up on that. we have 3 candidates. new candidates need to show up with implementations that match user stories 14:30:47 UK is easier for me than paris 14:30:48 -1 Edinburgh 14:30:50 q+ 14:30:52 +1 Edinburgh 14:30:55 +1 edinburgh 14:31:13 The festival is later in August 14:31:17 i.e. not July 14:31:24 dret has joined #social 14:31:25 rhiaro: the conflicting month in Edinburgh is August 14:31:25 -1 for planning a meeting until we know what we're planning for 14:31:33 ...starts the 7th of August 14:31:45 bblfish, yesterday's resolution http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-17/line/1426626196991 14:31:46 +0 (again, travel funding issues) 14:31:49 yo, dret ... we're voting on the possibility of a WG meeting in Europe ... 14:31:58 Arnaud: 23rd-24th of July in Edinburgh 14:32:16 can one kill the Zakim? 14:32:22 looks like Paris had few more +1 ? 14:32:22 harry: I'd be surprised if we can't get a room with the University of Edinburgh 14:32:39 bblfish: there will be too many henry's around 14:32:45 who is opinionated? 14:32:46 rhiaro: elf-pavlik can't come to the UK 14:32:53 either: tangent to W3C meeting in Paris May 4-5 OR with IndieWebCamp Edinburgh 7/25-26 14:32:54 ...so that's still a problem 14:33:01 ;-) 14:33:05 q+ 14:33:13 eprodrom, I agree that it's a bit silly to plan for meetings without agenda but some kind of regular heartbeat is needed. 14:33:13 I cannot hear half the things people are saying honestly 14:33:17 and I'm in the room 14:33:22 Arnaud: if we're not doing this thing in Paris, I would vote to do a 3 day meeting next time 14:33:28 +1 14:33:30 harry: agreed, but I'd like to have a goal 14:33:36 ...these f2f's are very valuable...at least 2.5 days would be good 14:33:40 ...and help folks travel back 14:33:43 Like "federation protocol ready for editorial" 14:33:52 eprodrom, I'm hoping the goal will be consensus on a first FPWD for the Social API 14:33:59 bblfish: the sun doesn't set in Edinburgh in July...so we could do 3 full days in 2 days time 14:34:07 ack eprodrom 14:34:10 we could try to arrange stay and working space for everyone very near Paris - http://openchateau.org/ 14:34:16 The question for me is whether or not we can do all the work in between this meeting and then to map the 14:34:28 use-cases to candidates and hash out most of the technical issues 14:34:31 eprodrom: it's important for us to meet. I would like us to have a particular goal for that meeting 14:34:43 ...harry mentioned having a FPWD ready 14:34:43 A 1st FPWD of the API was my goal for *THIS* meeting 14:34:49 but alas, it seems we now have 3 14:34:50 ...federation protocol draft 14:35:01 ...it'd be helpful to know what subject we'd be meeting about 14:35:06 (thus my objection to user-stories, but I think as a methodology it makes sense) 14:35:11 ...May 4th & 5th is 6 weeks from now 14:35:23 tantek: July is a better mid-point between now and TPAC 14:35:33 +q 14:35:41 +1 for July also 14:35:46 +1 for July 14:35:48 -q 14:36:00 +1 for July 22-24 range 14:36:01 +q 14:36:14 -1 July ( would not be able to get travel approval) 14:37:14 +1 July 14:37:38 zakim, stop timing speakers 14:37:38 ok, sandro 14:37:43 PROPOSED: Edinburgh July 22-24 (adjacent to IndieWebCamp) 14:37:52 (my queue slot is not related to scheduling btw) 14:38:13 +1 Edinburgh July 22-24 or July 23-24 14:38:23 0 14:38:29 -0 can't go there untill we sort out solid Digital Identity system :S 14:38:41 I think we should go somewhere elf to can get to 14:38:54 http://openchateau.org/ 14:38:54 I agree Tsyesika 14:39:42 Arnaud: it's good that we've agreed on Japan in October 14:39:43 I added a countdown for 10/17 8:00am (#5657) 14:39:52 ...but we should determine some dates for the inbetween meeting 14:40:00 Counter-proposal: don't meet between now and TPAC 14:40:04 tantek: I'm OK if we don't do an in between meeting 14:40:07 +1 14:40:11 I think July is a good idea 14:40:22 My french isn't great. Is http://openchateau.org/ viable for July 22-24? 14:40:32 In Paris I can book Centre Pompidou 14:40:36 even if I'm not there 14:40:39 But people could also meet in Paris who are interested in specific topics. Eg. LDP groups 14:40:43 They have a perfectly good meeting 14:40:57 Arnaud: I'm wondering if we should extend the phone calls by 30 minutes 14:41:04 ...I've done that with other groups and it's been helpful 14:41:15 ...it makes time for all the admin stuff we have to do at the beginning 14:41:19 I have a lunch conflict if we extend 30 minutes 14:41:24 +1 for 1h30 proposal by Arnaud 14:41:26 tantek: I think most of the calls have completed on time 14:41:33 Arnaud: we respect the limit we have 14:41:34 we could look at securing all the place to stay and meet + food in Paris to reduce expense for participants 14:41:37 q+ 14:41:40 ...it doesn't mean we couldn't use more time 14:41:56 I would prefer we try to make the administrivia very quick. 14:42:04 q+ 14:42:12 tantek: I'm not sure most of those issues are worth synchronous time 14:42:28 q+ 14:42:32 sandro: what's the alternative to synchronous time? 14:42:38 tantek: issues in tracker or IRC 14:42:44 sandro: or email? 14:42:45 Most produtive WGs I know eventually move to github 14:42:59 Arnaud: tracker is just there to say there is an issue 14:43:03 ...not to communicate over the issue 14:43:04 +1 github issues! 14:43:06 W3C has its own repo as well 14:43:08 sandro: we could use github issues 14:43:16 ack AdamB 14:43:19 It works well and we can automagically archive to the email list 14:43:36 see e.g. https://github.com/w3c/csvw/issues 14:43:39 cwebber2: it does seem that we get to some of the topics at the end 14:43:42 ...maybe 15 minutes? 14:43:45 ack bblfish 14:43:54 ...15 minutes more on the call 14:44:17 bblfish: I'm happy with an hour and 30 minutes 14:44:29 ...it does bring up the where are we discussing things discussion 14:44:30 ack harry 14:44:37 ...it's not clear where things can be discussed 14:44:56 harry: recently everything has a tracker and or a GitHub issue tracker 14:45:04 ...I'm happy with an extra 15 minutes 14:45:08 ...but not 30 14:45:12 PROPOSAL: we use github repo for each *product* hosted in single organization e.g. https://github.com/w3c-social 14:45:24 i agree with the underlying theme of what Arnaud stated, it seems like the topics that are holding up making forward progress tend to happen at the end of the meeting. i understand the lack of desire to be on a 90 minute meeting. what about trying out an extra 15 minutes for a few weeks and then see how it is working? 14:45:24 ...concerning too many channels, every WG I know uses wiki, tracker, somtimes github 14:45:28 ...people seem to do fine 14:45:31 s/somtimes/sometimes/ 14:45:40 Arnaud: let's forget the meeting length extension for now 14:45:41 ACTION: Email re github issues 14:45:41 Error finding 'Email'. You can review and register nicknames at . 14:45:47 ...it's 10:45...I think we should break 14:45:51 ACTION: hhalpin to discuss re github 14:45:51 Created ACTION-52 - Discuss re github [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-25]. 14:45:52 yes, harry people use that, but what is the issue database we should use? 14:45:53 trackbot, I don't blame you. 14:45:53 Sorry, tantek, I don't understand 'trackbot, I don't blame you.'. Please refer to for help. 14:46:06 cwebber2: my topic may not be good before a short break 14:46:06 ack cwebber2 14:46:12 In general we'd migrate off tracker and move to git/hg 14:46:19 ...it's not clear what's happening after this other than discussing API or federation 14:46:19 that's what most produtive WGs I see eventually do 14:46:32 ...my main question may or may not be trying to address an elephant in the room 14:46:47 ...it seems to me that some of the directions over the last couple days 14:46:55 Again, the authorized channels for discussion is IRC, email, wiki as well as a tracker/git/hg 14:47:00 ...is "don't discuss the technical direction; talk about the user stories" 14:47:04 I mean what github tracker is one meant to use for general discussions? it seems like the AS2.0 one is ok for issues on AS2.0 but not on say issues on Protocol, since that has not got a git repo. 14:47:08 +1 technical discussions of the APIs in our next session 14:47:18 ...at the end of yesterday I began to get very worried that we don't have an undertanding 14:47:41 ...there's a rift that AS is a way overly technical direction 14:47:46 ...and I'm concerned about the rift 14:47:47 We basically associate tracker only to meta-issues, and all deliverable-specific issues go to github 14:47:49 seems to work well 14:47:55 ...we explicitly don't have technical user stories 14:48:03 ...and I'm concerned that's going to be insufficient 14:48:04 General discussion is the usual IRC/mailing list/telecons 14:48:10 I fully expect to see implementaiton subsetting of ActivityStreams -- too much in it that is unnecessary for interop with popular consumers user stories. 14:48:11 ...and that we're not addressing the rift 14:48:19 s/implementaiton/implementation 14:48:24 harry, the person talking is speaking about the group potentially splitting, and at the same moment you make a comment that everything is going fine 14:48:24 People can always leave the WG, that's OK and normal, but we generally seek convergence 14:48:24 ...and that bringing this up is lobbing a grenade into the middle of the room 14:48:37 ...and that half the group is going to stand up a flip a table in response 14:48:45 ...I don't know what the solution is 14:48:52 ...and we haven't talked about it at all 14:49:07 cwebber2++ 14:49:08 ...at the end of yesterday it sounded like the indieweb folks were not for implementing AS2.0 14:49:10 cwebber2 has 14 karma 14:49:29 +1000 cwebber2 14:49:47 ...I hope we don't have a decision between this and the next meeting...where half of the group says this is completely against my technical direction...and I'm not going to implement it 14:49:52 cwebber2++ for speaking his mind and politely so. 14:49:53 Arnaud: we're discuss this after the break 14:49:55 cwebber2 has 15 karma 14:50:02 ...we do need to discuss general direction 14:50:08 I think it's more important to understand cross-cutting issues in API 14:50:11 ...we also have API and federation on the agenda 14:50:32 sandro: Andre came willing to do some LDP demos 14:50:53 tantek: another thing we asked people to do was cut short the federation conversation in the demos 14:50:55 s/Andre/Andrei/ 14:51:06 ...maybe we should allow that to kick of the federation conversation 14:51:18 how long is the break? 14:51:24 Arnaud: it's set. let's have a break. then we can go back to trying to convince each other 14:51:26 RESOLVED: we are not going to meet in Paris 14:51:31 -fjh 14:51:42 AnnB: what about people who are not meeting right now? 14:51:44 AnnB++ 14:51:46 AnnB has 11 karma 14:51:56 ...the people not here are likely the people who would meet in Paris 14:52:02 I would go to a meeting in Paris, official or unofficial 14:52:02 I would rather do Paris than Edinburgh 14:52:10 harry: If there's not a strong objection from tantek I'm fine with folks meeting in Paris 14:52:14 May > July for me 14:52:27 I will likely not make Paris but I would not object. 14:52:27 AnnB: I think there are others in Europe who aren't able to vote because they're not currently here 14:52:44 wait til TPAC > July > May for me 14:52:45 eprodrom: I'd rather not meet in the summer, and just meet at TPAC 14:52:57 I am happy to meet everyone in Paris in May 14:53:04 rhiaro: why don't we do a doodle.com for May and July? 14:53:09 we can make some space here, and just work on specific topics 14:53:14 +1 Doodle poll 14:53:15 ...and give people a few days to respond 14:53:25 +1 Doodle poll 14:53:26 harry: as long as we agree by next meeting 14:53:42 10 minutes? 14:53:43 ok 14:53:45 Arnaud: let's have a break for 10 minutes 14:53:48 We could do it together with some of the next http://semdev.org events in Europe 14:53:52 ACTION eprodrom to make doodle poll for f2f between now and TPAC 14:53:53 Created ACTION-53 - Make doodle poll for f2f between now and tpac [on Evan Prodromou - due 2015-03-25]. 14:57:36 elf-pavlik: re the agenda, I think it would make sense to discuss issue 17 (Identity, Agent, Person, Persona, Account etc.) *before* other issues, as it affects the other issues 14:58:16 building an API without identity as was tried with ostatus didnt work ... let's learn from that 14:58:33 AFAIK sandro and jasnell (and of course bblfish) have the best overview on that 14:58:58 IMO bblfish may have certain bias here ... 14:59:14 bias? 14:59:25 http://doodle.com/8fa27m9ryx6d26rb 15:00:08 http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/spec/identity/ 15:00:30 melvster - not sure what you mean by bias 15:00:45 tantek: it was a question, elf brought up bias 15:00:48 yesterday we already got hot exchange about /#me thing 15:00:52 in IndieWeb we found it was much simpler / more sensible to build micropub on top of IndieAuth / identity 15:00:59 in terms of user-flow 15:01:31 tantek, IndieAuth at this moment looks like pretty insecure since it doesn't require HTTPS or at least people don't use it... 15:01:56 also fkooman brought couple of issues with state parameter etc. 15:02:38 elf-pavlik: nope IndieAuth works with or without https - up to the indieweb site to choose 15:02:44 +1 15:02:45 thus it builds upon user agency and preference 15:02:57 what I tried to tell fkooman 15:03:14 everyone listed on indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS level 3 support uses IndieAuth 100% with HTTPS 15:03:27 WebID could possibly also work without HTTPS 15:03:47 not secure, but well 15:03:48 elf-pavlik: rather than claim "doesn't require HTTPS or at least people don't use it" please instead *ASK* "can it work with HTTPS and who uses it?" since you don't know. 15:04:02 bblfish: that's my understanding of WebID as well 15:04:39 for example one can use openID to verify a WebID 15:04:42 i know it can, just at least from fkooman's feedback most people don't use it or if they do have insecure https config on their servers 15:05:13 this is false: "most people don't use it or if they do have insecure https config on their servers" 15:05:15 i hope he'll write post about it soon 15:05:26 refuted by the citation I gave above 15:05:36 indiewebcamp.com/HTTPS level 3 support and higher 15:05:42 elf-pavlik: discussion on identity can be heated, that's because it's personal to so many people, that doesnt mean it's not worth discussing, at least as a building block for the other issues, imho a standards group should aim towards interoperability, whatever the individual viewpoint 15:05:49 don't care what someone claims - anyone can inspect the raw data 15:06:08 -bblfish 15:06:24 i very much like approach IndieAuth takes, just it may need more in depth security review 15:06:45 why? facebook got to 100 million users with http 15:07:08 everything is moving to HTTPS 15:07:20 melvster, we talk about client-server HTTPS or server-server HTTPS ? 15:08:23 tilgovi has joined #social 15:09:22 client-server without HTTPS puts people using wireless hot-spots etc. under great risk for anything requiring authentication 15:10:07 server-server HTTPS different story but still I find benefits to use it there as well 15:10:37 just different degree of staying exposed to MitM attacks 15:11:09 jeff has joined #social 15:12:48 exactly elf 15:14:36 elf-pavlik: ++securityreview! 15:14:53 I've started added security review questions and such for exactly that reason 15:15:13 let's embed pgp authentication into the spec, it's the only solution we have to bring real security for our users ;) 15:15:17 #obvioustroll 15:15:24 cwebber2++ 15:15:26 cwebber2 has 16 karma 15:15:38 Arnaud: we should agree on what we want to use the time for. 15:15:42 ...lunch is coming to us today 15:15:49 ...we have the afternoon up until about 5:30 15:15:55 q+ 15:15:56 ...we need to talk about federation 15:16:03 ...we should at least touch on the subject 15:16:03 -q 15:16:14 ...we have at least 1 demo 15:16:20 Andrei says 5 15:16:27 tantek: are they related to user stories 15:16:37 ack eprodrom 15:16:45 s/Andrei/deiu 15:17:12 eprodrom: I'd like to do federation, demos of LDP, and social API criteria? 15:17:22 Arnaud: before the end of the day...split between them in some way 15:17:26 deiu, maybe later you would have some tips on how LDP deals with 'MediaObjects' https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/MediaObject 15:17:33 eprodrom: can we address federation protocol strategy for the next hour? 15:17:36 Arnaud: that's reasonable 15:17:45 eprodrom: sounds good 15:17:58 ...the way that our charter has been layed out is that we'd be taking a staged approach 15:18:01 ...syntax 15:18:02 ...api 15:18:05 ...federation protocol 15:18:21 ..."if we manage to make it work...it may only be a note" -- referencing the charter 15:18:30 +bblfish 15:18:32 ...it's important for us to delivery something, but we do have some waivering out on the fed protocol 15:18:34 or API *could* solve federation as well... 15:18:57 ...we've talked before about syntax informing API which would in turn inform the federation protocol 15:19:16 ...if we continue with that strategy, then I think the next steps are to work on the API 15:19:22 ...and let that inform federation 15:19:37 ...if we have 3 candidates, we should at least sketch out how federation would look on each of those protocols 15:19:54 ...because the selection of the API will flow into the federation choices 15:20:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82983&oldid=82976 15:20:03 ...I'd like to see how things might work with pump.io 15:20:08 ...I'd assume WebMention for micropub 15:20:15 eprodrom++ re: looking at what federation would look like following that api 15:20:17 eprodrom has 6 karma 15:20:18 ...and what if any system might exist for an LDP strategy 15:20:20 q+ 15:20:37 ack sandro 15:20:43 ....this is coming up at 11:20, and I don't think they need to be held to a high standard because of time...but I think it's a good place to start 15:20:56 sandro: I'm trying to determine the distinction between the API and the federation protocol 15:21:05 ...is it about relationship of the user to the service providing the API? 15:21:26 eprodrom: I think when we talk about federation it's about security bounderies 15:21:38 ...I can't log in to aaronpk's site 15:21:44 ...but I can publish to my own site 15:21:55 q+ to note that in IndieWeb, there was a natural split between work on federation protocol (Webmention, Vouch), and API (Micropub), and it turned out federation was easier to do first (before API) 15:21:56 ...and I can send a notification to aaronpk or Boeing 15:22:03 ...and they can choose to do something with it 15:22:06 s/aaronpk's site/aaronpk's site and post there 15:22:25 ...it then in turn chooses to pluck a feed in a pull fashion 15:22:43 my-frontend<->my-backend<->other-backend<->my-frontend vs. my-frontend<->my-backend || other-backend <->other-backend 15:22:47 ...I think of the API as a client to server protocol and federation as a server-to-server protocol 15:22:53 (since evanpro can actually log in to my site and see content i've shared with him privately) 15:23:03 ...I believe micropub and webmention are client-to-server then server-to-server 15:23:24 sandro: LDP has explored both. deiu demo will hopefully cover some of that 15:23:39 eprodrom: there's nothing in LDP that precludes it syndicating it out elsewhere, correct? 15:23:42 plh has joined #social 15:23:46 Arnaud: correct. 15:24:08 eprodrom: if I publish to my site, and then having that be syndicated out to other peoples inboxes is entirely possible, right? 15:24:10 Arnaud: right. 15:24:11 q? 15:24:11 q? 15:24:15 ack tantek 15:24:15 tantek, you wanted to note that in IndieWeb, there was a natural split between work on federation protocol (Webmention, Vouch), and API (Micropub), and it turned out federation was 15:24:18 ... easier to do first (before API) 15:24:29 tantek: sandro asked about the distinction between API and federation 15:24:37 ...some of it can be architectural 15:24:45 ...in the indieweb community it emerged 15:24:48 ...from what was being built 15:24:57 ...the federation protocols ended up being really really simple 15:25:05 ...webmention is a simplified version of pingback 15:25:21 ...there are other APIs that also need auth 15:25:25 Andrei Sambra = deiu 15:25:35 on W3C staff 15:25:44 Arnaud: do you agree with eprodrom definition of API and federation? 15:25:50 tantek: I'm not sure about that. 15:26:01 ...some of the demos that you saw yesterday was server-to-server 15:26:08 ...servers talking to servers 15:26:18 eprodrom: yes. they are web servers talking to web servers 15:26:19 webmention also works my-frontend <-> other-backend e.g. input on https://aaronparecki.com/notes/2015/03/17/4/w3c 15:26:23 tantek: server as user agent 15:26:33 aaronpk: I don't think client-server vs. server-server is a good definition 15:26:42 sandro: I think it's about trust boundries 15:26:57 AnnB: in our case, when suppliers begin adding social features to their tools 15:27:05 both server and client can send web mention to my understanding 15:27:05 ...then we'd like to federate that into our social tools 15:27:11 ...we don't have control over too much 15:27:30 sandro: you don't clearly have ownership over everything, but you want it to cross bounderies 15:27:42 just as both clent and servers can use LDP 15:27:45 tantek: that's a great point. we have this same problem in the indieweb 15:27:48 "federation crosses control boundaries" 15:27:57 ...one is to silos, and one is peer-to-peer 15:28:27 ...with the silos its a bunch of "snow flake" APIs 15:28:40 q? 15:28:44 tilgovi: are you trying to make a distinction that they're all different? or are they user-to-user vs. user-to-server? 15:28:49 tantek: we have both. 15:28:54 ...we have POSSE 15:29:02 ...and we have on that pulls from the silos 15:29:05 q? 15:29:07 q+ 15:29:13 aaronpk: the term is related to every silo thinking their service is special 15:29:21 tilgovi: the answer is that every API is different, then. 15:29:33 POSSE - http://indiewebcamp.com/POSSE 15:29:52 webmention ~= pingback 15:29:54 tantek: with peer-to-peer API there is one API: WebMention (and sometimes the Vouch extension of that) 15:29:55 webmention - http://indiewebcamp.com/Webmention 15:30:06 ...and in the other case, we use POSSE 15:30:09 Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82985&oldid=82983 15:30:19 vouch - http://indiewebcamp.com/Vouch 15:30:20 eprodrom: in networking terms, we'd call that using a bridge 15:30:30 tantek: right. we're bridging to support federation 15:30:34 Zakim, who is on the phone? 15:30:34 On the phone I see confroom, bblfish 15:30:42 ...we put perma shortlinks into the body of the copy to follow your nose back to the original 15:30:45 ...when using POSSE 15:30:47 q? 15:30:49 q- 15:30:56 eprodrom: looking at broader federation systems... 15:31:02 q+ how can one standardise snowflakes? 15:31:06 qhow can one standardise snowflakes? 15:31:07 ...in email, the user connects to their server using POP, IMAP, Exchange, etc. 15:31:09 +??P31 15:31:09 q how can one standardise snowflakes? 15:31:14 ...servers talk to each other using SMTP 15:31:15 q: how can one standardise snowflakes? 15:31:17 q? 15:31:19 q+ 15:31:22 ...there is that separation between the two 15:31:28 Zakim, ??P31 is me 15:31:28 +bret; got it 15:31:30 bblfish: we typically don't want to because snowflake APIs are so horrible 15:31:31 ...XMPP actually names them c2s and s2s 15:31:34 Zakim, mute me 15:31:34 bret should now be muted 15:31:38 ack bblfish 15:31:38 ...they separate, but very similar protocols 15:32:00 bblfish: in the standards there's a snow flake federation that is probably un-standardizable 15:32:03 we have a better chance of asking silos to implement simple standard APIs *in addition* to their snowflakes 15:32:04 ...so we can't really look at that 15:32:14 ...a number of the other protocols are server-to-server 15:32:27 +q 15:32:28 ...can that not just be done using the LDP API? 15:32:40 -bret 15:32:41 ...can that person not just add a statement that they want to be pinged at a certain URI? 15:32:58 ...there is a super set of HTTP that's going to be completely identical between the client and the server API 15:33:13 ...what would be interesting is to have the common piece move up the stack 15:33:16 ack cwebber2 15:33:17 ...so there's very little distinction 15:33:20 q+ 15:33:39 cwebber2: the distinction is a little less valuable in the "pump-a-verse" 15:33:51 ...there's someone who's built a twitter-to-pump thing 15:33:54 ...and it got shutdown 15:34:02 ...you can just build bots that do those thing 15:34:03 +??P31 15:34:14 ...they're not that interesting...as they get shut down all the time. 15:34:16 Zakim, ??P31 is me 15:34:16 +bret; got it 15:34:20 Zakim, mute me 15:34:20 bret should now be muted 15:34:26 ack cwebber 15:34:33 ...it doesn't seem relevant to dealing to the silos 15:34:37 ack eprodrom 15:34:38 q+ 15:34:42 ...federation is about dealing with the peers 15:34:43 me above: yes be as little difference as possible between the "client" and the "federated" api, so that one can use the same stack to program both. 15:34:53 q- 15:34:55 q+ 15:35:00 q? 15:35:11 AnnB: in certain situations it is true it's not about working together 15:35:12 ack AnnB 15:35:23 ...but we have so much to tie together, that federation is valuable 15:35:34 ...internally we are trying to federate between silos 15:35:41 ...I'm just saying there are co-operative silos 15:36:00 cwebber2: the main interest in dealing with silos is that users are stuck in it 15:36:04 ...and it's hard to get out of it 15:36:07 ...or get your friends out of it 15:36:22 ...I'd love to be behind federation to silos, but it seems you can deal with it without adding it to the federation discussion 15:36:31 bblfish: I agree, good idea there 15:36:32 second on cwebbers point that we don't need to discuss federation to silos 15:36:34 ...in part because you'll likely get shut down 15:36:47 tantek: if you're abusive or throttled, you'll get shutdown 15:36:58 ...let's just ask who's been shutdown 15:37:09 eprodrom: but you don't provide other people access to a separate client to twitter 15:37:18 tantek: lots of reasons twitter shuts things down 15:37:26 eprodrom: that might be one of them 15:37:27 +1 cwebber2 it's probably out-of-scope for us to talk about the social/legal problems of bridging 15:37:34 tantek: we have bridgey that does this 15:37:43 ...assuming you copied your content to twitter 15:37:47 +1 don't get to much into discussion about bridging to silos ... 15:37:49 ...originally it just supported backfeed 15:37:54 s/bridgey/http://brid.gy 15:38:09 Sorry guys had an email crash will be down in a sec 15:38:17 ...brid.gy publishes using your feed and throttles it's publishing 15:38:26 ...if you set it up to let anyone through, it will get shut down 15:38:29 but I think that anyone can build these things without the help of this working group 15:38:34 ...if you do things their way, you won't get shut down 15:38:35 it already happens 15:38:41 ...to chris's point, why are we talking about this at all? 15:38:49 cwebber2++ 15:38:51 cwebber2 has 17 karma 15:38:53 ...federation is completely about reaching your friends 15:39:03 ...reaching your friends is a core user story 15:39:11 q? 15:39:11 ...we're not here to help people in their own little mono-cultures 15:39:15 or between tools, that are willing to be federated 15:39:16 q+ 15:39:25 ack eprodrom 15:39:32 Arnaud: part of not being shut down is not using a client with a bad name like...DestroyTwitter 15:39:34 timbl has joined #social 15:39:44 eprodrom: I'm wanting to sketch out how pump.io does federation 15:39:55 ...since we're kind of approaching our lunch hour, I can do more of this later 15:40:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82987&oldid=82985 15:40:06 ...the pump.io API has a number of endpoints for doing federation 15:40:10 ...there's an outbox feed 15:40:15 ...I can write to that 15:40:20 https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md 15:40:22 ...there's an inbox feed that my friends generate 15:40:42 ...there's lists of people I follow, lists of people following me, lists of replies, etc. 15:40:51 ...main way to interact is to post to your output feed 15:41:09 ...pump.io will do the effort of adding that item to the list of favorites 15:41:11 ...and move that item 15:41:15 s/move/moving 15:41:27 ...the inbox for the end user is typically read only 15:41:34 ...but for other people on other servers it is write only 15:41:49 ...other servers will deliver to those servers based on the content in the ActivityStream 15:41:54 eprodrom, aaronpk can you compare micropub+webmention to pump.io APIs (c2s, s2s) ? 15:41:57 ...who should be receiving that activity 15:42:13 ...if aaronpk posts a new note that is to eprodrom, his server will route that to his inbox 15:42:14 harry has joined #social 15:42:30 ...discovery is through WebFinger and in some cases the ActivityStream 15:42:36 ...authentication is via 2-legged OAuth 15:42:55 ...it's basically saying, I'm aaronpk at identi.ca and you are pumpyourself.com, here's a message for eprodrom 15:43:04 Zakim, who is making noise? 15:43:04 ...the pump.io server deals with routing to that inbox 15:43:13 ...there are pluses and minuses to this system 15:43:14 bret, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: confroom (13%) 15:43:30 multicast ? 15:43:35 ...one minus, for a big fan-out it can be repetitive 15:43:49 ...with SMTP an email to lots of people will get delivered once 15:43:56 ...with pump.io it'll get delivered multiple times 15:44:03 ...there's also issues with maintaining social graphs 15:44:11 q? 15:44:18 q- 15:44:36 ...it's pretty reliable 15:44:45 ...there are some social graph scenarios that have not been figured out yet 15:45:08 ...if cwebber2 follows eprodrom, tantek follows eprodrom, and tantek comments on eprodrom post...it doesn't make it all the way back to cwebber2 15:45:27 q+ to ask about pump.io and PuSH 15:45:45 ...good news is we are able to move the content around via activitystreams 15:45:57 q+ to describe federation with the indieweb stack 15:46:04 ...you only get content from your friends...he doesn't have to make an authenticated request to my server 15:46:26 ...the main reason I wanted to bring it up today is that it integrates very nicely into the API 15:46:30 SimonTennant1 has left #social 15:46:31 aaronpk, if you didn't i was about to 15:46:36 ...it's the same API for discovering and reading from the API 15:46:52 ack tantek 15:46:52 tantek, you wanted to ask about pump.io and PuSH 15:46:55 ACTION pelf to Investigate 'my client' to 'someone else server' authentication 15:46:56 Created ACTION-54 - Investigate 'my client' to 'someone else server' authentication [on Pavlik elf - due 2015-03-25]. 15:46:58 ...there's a part that's compatible and also closely compatible with the activitystreams 15:47:18 tantek: I noticed that you've build support for Pubsubhubbub (PuSH) in the past 15:47:23 ...it seems that's no longer the case 15:47:28 ...what were your reasons for not using it 15:47:40 pump.io and indieweb methods seems very similar, with the exception that pump.io pushes data to other servers when commenting, while indieweb sends a mention to tell the server to pull 15:47:45 ...maybe there's something we can learn from that 15:47:59 eprodrom: OStatus was based on PuSH 15:48:09 ...we were unable to (easily) do remote delivery of private content 15:48:16 ...if you do a subscription to a single feed 15:48:19 ...via PuSH 15:48:25 ...then I will get all the same items as Amy would get 15:48:34 ...if she subscribes to tantek via PuSH 15:48:48 ...there is no authentication on part of the subscriber to say I'm eprodrom or I'm Amy 15:49:00 ...just I do have a valid endpoint to which I want stuff delivered 15:49:14 ...reason that's an issue is that tantek is posting private images or his location 15:49:21 ...that would cross that federation boundary 15:49:23 also that means auth is on the sender instead of receiver 15:49:34 tantek: so there were no private notification features that you could use? 15:49:38 eprodrom: essentially, yes. 15:49:43 ...there are a couple ways to hack around it 15:49:56 ...tantek has a specific feed that is just for eprodrom 15:50:04 ...then tantek would be responsible to publish just into that feed 15:50:07 ...or one for friends 15:50:09 ...or one for family 15:50:19 ...this is my feed for friends and cwebber2 15:50:31 q+ 15:50:38 aaronpk: another way is to say your essentially putting an access token into the URL to essentially authenticate that user 15:50:50 eprodrom: essentially, just pushing the problem farther down the line 15:50:54 ...what pump.io does 15:51:04 ...there are a lot of issues with PuSH 15:51:08 ...we tried to work around them 15:51:16 ...it was easier to move to other relatively simple solutions 15:51:31 ...like having the publisher have an idea to whom they want the content to go to 15:51:39 tantek: so more SMTP than RSS style 15:51:40 cool 15:51:43 eprodrom: that's a very good way to put it 15:51:53 ack AdamB 15:52:06 AdamB 15:52:16 AdamB: right now we're working to sync between SharePoint sites 15:52:23 q+ 15:52:25 ...syncing the content between them is important 15:52:27 ack aaronpk 15:52:27 aaronpk, you wanted to describe federation with the indieweb stack 15:52:29 ...eprodrom thanks for sharing that 15:52:44 aaronpk: with the IndieWebCamp sites that we're seeing there's essentially 2 ways we're dealing with this 15:52:49 ...one is by posting a WebMention 15:53:01 ...I send a very simple payload to Amy's WebMention endpoint 15:53:08 ...that I can discover from here site 15:53:14 ...and send a very simple payload 15:53:16 q+ 15:53:23 ...Amy's site can go verify...and then do what she wants with that 15:53:29 ...such as publishing it on here site 15:53:34 ...it's gotten us pretty far 15:53:48 rhiaro++ 15:53:50 rhiaro has 34 karma 15:53:53 ...the way it works is by parsing the hentry's on my site 15:54:12 ...she can then comment on my site by publshing to here site 15:54:18 s/hentry/h-entry/ 15:54:19 s/publshing/publishing 15:54:34 ...this is about commenting directly on a post 15:54:46 ...we've been experimenting with an anti-spam thing called Vouch 15:55:00 ...dealing with the "I can comment on anything" spam stuff 15:55:09 ...the other thing we've been experimenting with is PuSH 15:55:13 ...which gets more into the group context 15:55:19 ...get posts in real time 15:55:31 ...pubsubhubbub looks like a good model 15:55:40 ...it's only been recently that we've seen some implementations 15:55:47 ...though hubs have been around for several years 15:56:03 ...we're using it with microformats 15:56:14 oh! I need to go to another room to call in for the IG meeting 15:56:22 ...as a subscriber if I want to use it with tantek's blog, "hey I want to subscribe to you" 15:56:22 action-12 15:56:22 action-12 -- Harry Halpin to Get clarification on PubSubHubbub -- due 2014-11-28 -- CLOSED 15:56:22 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/12 15:56:37 ^ we can't use PubSubHubbub 15:56:39 that is finished 15:56:41 ...when tantek publishes, he notifies his pub that he's published something he wants others to be notfied of 15:56:52 ...the hub then notifies the others 15:57:00 (not sure anyone will attend) 15:57:02 ...did I miss anything? 15:57:03 its useful to understand 15:57:09 but we can't directly use 15:57:14 until Google does a patent non-assert 15:57:19 harry, let's just make it clear 15:57:24 even OWFa would be enough 15:57:27 likely 15:57:36 ...PuSH itself does not itself have authentication for distinguishing private feeds 15:57:45 ...I'll probably use access tokens in the URL 15:57:55 ...with IndieAuth, people can pre-register 15:58:01 ...we may reach the same conclusion 15:58:03 q? 15:58:05 ...as eprodrom 15:58:22 AdamB: what we do is when you request a feed, we check who you are, then send you a specific feed 15:58:35 aaronpk: that's essentially what I mean by an access token for the feed 15:58:44 q? 15:58:49 ack bblfish 15:58:51 ...since I'm already giving you the feed in HTML, it's not a stretch to think of doing it for a client 15:58:54 q+ 15:58:56 s/can pre-register/can log in without pre-registering 15:58:59 http://bblfish.net/tmp/2011/05/09/ 15:59:09 bblfish: I was working on notification something like pingback in 2011 15:59:09 there is btw no patent non-asserts on FOAF I think as well 15:59:11 ...before LDP came out 15:59:19 ...doing something very lightweight like the IndieWeb folks are doing 15:59:25 ...tying into the web without asking very much 15:59:32 ...when you authenticate with a WebID 15:59:37 q+ to note challenges encountered with PuSH 15:59:51 ...if people know your WebID, they can POST their stuff there to notify you 16:00:15 ...that's very close to what eprodrom was describing 16:00:27 ...with the semantic web, doing this in a neat way, describing the container 16:00:32 ...having your webid point to that container 16:00:43 ...and with a couple relations, you can get it nicely described 16:00:45 ack cwebber 16:00:50 cwebber2: I have a number of questions 16:00:58 ...how would you do private posts? 16:01:23 aaronpk: right now, my software creates an audience for a post 16:01:27 ...there's a login box 16:01:34 ...you can identify yourself as your domain name 16:01:41 ...and on my site, I can show you those private pots 16:01:46 s/pots/posts 16:01:53 ...there is no central thing 16:02:03 ...you can use your reader to collect the stream for you 16:02:20 ...we've not yet built that into the reader that my site gets your private things 16:02:25 action-54 16:02:25 action-54 -- Pavlik elf to Investigate 'my client' to 'someone else server' authentication -- due 2015-03-25 -- OPEN 16:02:25 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/54 16:02:31 ...we're going to find out if we can shoehorn that into PuSH 16:02:41 cwebber2: some of the things that are in pump 16:02:46 ...one side is the command language 16:02:54 ...subscribe me to a mailing list 16:03:04 ...or whack a goblin on the head 16:03:11 ...some thing that's mutating state on the server 16:03:17 ...is this specific to the server? 16:03:24 ...or is there a shared action vocabulary? 16:03:31 eprodrom: with pump.io that happens through the client API 16:03:42 ...open farm game acts as a client to your pump.io site 16:03:55 aaronpk: the one command language thing is syndication 16:03:59 ...(for us) 16:04:07 ...the client doesn't know how to post to twitter 16:04:12 ...but my server does 16:04:29 ...that's the one command language thing that we've done 16:04:29 q+ 16:04:30 ack harry 16:04:48 -q 16:04:48 harry: just so people know, we don't have patent-non-assert on PuSH and even FOAF 16:04:57 ...we just can't use them as normative until we have that 16:05:04 ...it'll require some hassling 16:05:10 ...if we need that 16:05:15 ack tantek 16:05:15 tantek, you wanted to note challenges encountered with PuSH 16:05:43 tantek: several of us have tried to work with PuSH in various degrees...so let's be upfront 16:05:53 ...PuSH 0.3 has been around for years 16:05:59 ...and there's really only a couple implementations 16:06:07 ...there's Google AppSpot and Superfeedr 16:06:16 q+ 16:06:18 PuSH: pub sub hub hub 16:06:24 ...this is supposed to be Web-wide, but to only have 2 implementations makes me suspicious 16:06:30 I think diaspora uses PuSH right? 16:06:35 ...on the consuming side, it's been shown to be non-trivial 16:06:42 PUbSubHubbub 16:06:44 and so has friendica 16:06:46 aaronpk: it took me ~2 hours...so it's pretty trivial 16:07:07 tantek: it's been brought up as being too much of a pain to be too hard for people to implement 16:07:11 ...in the IndieWebCamp 16:07:19 ...it seems like it's too much work 16:07:31 aaronpk: the spec has holes, so it's hard to read the spec as a guide 16:07:39 ...I took a stab at the guide to implemente it 16:07:47 ...and I found my guide more helpful than the spac 16:07:51 s/spac/spec 16:08:00 ...the hard bit's understanding the spec 16:08:14 eprodrom: it should be pointed out that many of the open source social projects have their own PuSH hubs 16:08:16 tantek: oh they do 16:08:29 eprodrom: things are mediated through the hubs 16:08:37 ...to allow for huge fan outs of the deployments 16:08:38 elf-pavlik_ has joined #social 16:08:55 ...if you don't have that fan out, it's simpler 16:09:07 ...for a lot of implementers they just implement the publisher and the hub into the same software 16:09:16 ...even thought it's the hub part of the spec, it's the publisher that's doing it 16:09:28 ...theirs a hub in status.net, friendi.ca, diaspora 16:09:33 AFAIK diaspora uses google hub :( 16:09:37 ...doing a general purpose hub is a lot of work 16:09:44 ...it's not that hard at lower limits 16:09:48 does somebody have a link for super feeder? 16:09:57 tantek: as a person wanting to do the publishing side 16:10:05 ...and there being only two public hubs 16:10:11 http://superfeedr.com/ 16:10:18 ...that feels like a vulnerability 16:10:24 elf-pavlik++ 16:10:27 ...Google doesn't actually support 0.4 16:10:27 elf-pavlik has 12 karma 16:10:34 ...and Superfeedr doesn't support all of 0.4 16:10:45 ...I don't see rapid evolution of it with only two players 16:10:50 in particular, bradfitz no longer works on it 16:10:56 ...normally you need healthy competition to keep things moving 16:11:02 danbri1, anyone at Google still care about pubsubhubbub? 16:11:10 elf-pavlik_: diaspora really uses google hub? 16:11:14 all of them? 16:11:15 danbri1, what about patent non-asserts or something on FOAF as well? 16:11:16 ...I'm raising these issues that you know about this...despite that we're trying to make it work within the IndieWeb community 16:11:20 and pubsubhubbub? 16:11:20 that's super surprising 16:11:28 ...we're looking at WebMention instead...but it's not to the point of shipping yet. 16:11:31 cwebber2, at least 2-3 years ago almos all did !!! 16:11:35 ...that's the only fallback approach I know of 16:11:41 ...for private messages and stuff 16:11:51 eprodrom: something worth mentioning about OStatus 16:11:52 elf-pavlik_: a search for 'diaspora "google hub"' on duck duck go shows no relevant results 16:11:58 ...and it's Atom implementation 16:12:02 q+ 16:12:04 ...there was a third part call Salmon 16:12:07 https://duckduckgo.com/?q=diaspora+%22google+hub%22&t=debian 16:12:09 ...which was for unsubscribed updates 16:12:26 ...if I comment on a post that's part of a feed I'm not subscribed ot 16:12:29 s/ot/to/ 16:12:36 ...much along the WebMention side 16:12:42 ...tells the upstream (hence Salmon) about the post 16:12:50 ...delivering activities between two servers 16:12:59 q- 16:13:03 ...with pump.io there's not a distinction between subscribe and unsubscribe 16:13:03 ack bblfish 16:13:06 ...they go through the same pipes 16:13:17 ack eprodrom 16:13:23 ack harry 16:13:26 harry: just to reiterate 16:13:36 ...one of the reasons we separated federation out 16:13:42 q+ 16:13:43 ...was because of these issues 16:13:56 ...things we thought could be safely ignored 16:13:57 ack bblfish 16:14:09 Are we wrapping for lunch? 16:14:21 bblfish: what's interesting is that we have two...sending message remote, but perhaps super efficient for people who've got millions of users 16:14:24 close the queue in favor of lunch? 16:14:27 there are privacy/security issues in a federated system, but we can do the proper reviews before going Rec-track 16:14:28 lunch++ 16:14:30 lunch has 16 karma 16:14:35 ...and the scalability seems to be generating the need for PuSH and other tools 16:14:44 ...but there seem to be some linked data-ish ways to get something going 16:14:45 well, if you don't look at the scalability then your system will likely never be adopted :) 16:14:54 ...where the API at a bit higher level than HTTP 16:14:57 i think so. I ate too much at the break, now i'm not hungry 16:14:59 ...the browser could be doing something similar 16:15:10 i guess bblfish assumes action-54 already solved 16:15:15 action-54 16:15:15 action-54 -- Pavlik elf to Investigate 'my client' to 'someone else server' authentication -- due 2015-03-25 -- OPEN 16:15:15 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/54 16:15:15 ...which is why I'm concerned a bit that servers are doing federation 16:15:21 ...that perhaps could be done elsewhere 16:15:28 ...and that federation could be done at a different layer 16:16:03 Arnaud: there is no immediate next action about handling this distinction 16:16:16 ...we should keep the federation deliverable in mind when we talk about the API 16:16:26 ...as it does lead into the other 16:16:35 experience has shown so far that scaling federation is hard, and anyone who has made federation work at scale (delivering / receiving 100k messages/users) is welcome to discuss how they did it (not how they *would* do it ;) ) 16:16:37 ...they're just things we'll need to take into account as we move forward with the API 16:16:56 ...then we'll have deiu demo the LDP implemention 16:17:03 tantek: I put a slot in the agenda for the demos 16:17:04 Just saying that one can do some of the "federated piece" using something that is light weight, and that does not run into scalability problems that Pubsubhubbub tries to solve, and so one should not put these out of scope in the "Social API" 16:17:06 ...for after lunch 16:17:21 ...deiu maybe over lunch,. maybe you an connect it to user stories 16:17:33 ...the list of user stories is linked from wiki 16:17:40 ...anyone else who wants to demo 16:17:43 ...can do the same 16:17:47 ...running code...we like it 16:17:58 lunch time 16:18:04 s/out of scope in the/out of scope of the/ 16:18:15 would someone like to take few minutes to try get audio working from my side? 16:19:00 bblfish: can you explain exactly what you mean, and why that would be preferable to having the conceptual separation between "client-to-server" and "server-to-server", which is helping us get our work done? 16:19:47 well so the use case for server to server we mentioned was one server wants to send a message to an inbox of someone on another server right? 16:20:19 bblfish: I believe that's what pump.io does right now yes 16:20:36 ok, so I can imagine a situation where my client just wants to do that directly too. 16:20:55 elf-pavlik, IMO it boils down to authentication in s2s nowadays people find it easier to authenticate the 'client' 16:20:59 does not seem like the server to server is an essential part of the story 16:21:02 eprodrom, ^ 16:21:44 or server acting as 'client' or on someone's behalf 16:21:45 bblfish: experience has shown people like/build both approaches - having your client deliver directly to someone else's server and your client to your server to someone else's server 16:22:03 I'm not sure I have a specific preference myself, but I do know others do one and/or the other. 16:22:13 fine tantek, but no need to invent a new protocol for client/server in that case 16:22:20 tantek, how do you authenticate your client to arbitrary server? 16:22:28 i still don't think the client-server vs server-server distinction is useful 16:22:33 bblfish: indeed more we can do with fewer protocols, tends to be better 16:22:44 servers can act as clients, so then what do you call it 16:22:45 or rather, there is a burden of proof of need for more protocols 16:22:50 in my 'reader' i want to 'like' 15 posts and request goes directly to servers of publishers not to my server 16:22:56 I mean we don't need a protocol "browser to client" and one "server to client" when in fact at the http layer the distinction is not needed 16:23:05 server to server is just another name for saying one server is a client 16:23:19 elf-pavlik: there is no practical difference (especially to the receiver of that like) whether the request comes from your browser or your server 16:23:20 elf-pavlik: in my 'reader' / 'client' / 'app' I want to like 15 posts, and all 15 get posted to *my server* (as posts) which then webmentions the other servers 16:23:28 and yes what tantek said 16:23:30 so I suppose that's my preferred architecture 16:23:41 based on my preference for data ownership of my likes 16:23:46 but authentication works differently, melvster and bblfish assume it easy since they like WebID+TLS (similar to IndieCert but without intermediary service) 16:23:52 having permalinks for likes on my own server is very compelling 16:24:24 HTH. anyway - lunch break! 16:24:32 tantek: " having permalinks for likes on my own server is very compelling" that might just be another thing then: a good proxy api 16:24:56 Bon Appétit @all 16:24:59 elf-pavlik: please dont speak for me, what I like and what I dont like ... you are misrepresenting things more than is needed 16:25:23 each auth system has pros and cons and uses in different scenarios 16:25:29 bon apetit 16:25:38 when are they coming back? 16:25:49 melvster, if you don't use WebID+TLS (or equivalent alternative) athenticating to 50 different servers in 5 minutes makes a lot of hassle nowadays 16:25:53 agenda says an hour 16:25:59 bblfish: on the hour 16:26:00 ok. thanks 16:26:01 :-) 16:26:12 -bblfish 16:28:54 elf-pavlik: im arguing for one method over another, I just request that you dont tell people what I "like" and "dont like" ... different systems are useful for different use cases 16:29:38 but I can say that what I do like is to reuse w3c standards 16:30:10 more specifically w3c RECs 16:31:58 because most are well thought through, can be used out of the box, scale very well, and tend to put interoperability first, which is why I like LDP which came out last month, and would be interested in any REC track work this group does 16:33:48 melvster, what do you think of following directions of discovering ldp:Containers and operatoins they allow? 16:34:02 to reuse existing predicates (link relations) 16:34:05 https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L366 16:34:20 e.g. "hydra:property": "author" 16:34:26 i do it already, ive had good experiences so far, but id like to continue testing and working on use cases 16:35:42 melvster, how do i find container with things that you have authored ? e.g. using inverse of schema:author 16:36:17 or container with people that you know, following foaf:knows 16:36:34 or events you participated in, following schema:event 16:36:35 i dont follow too schema . org closely, sorry, we have an mblog author and dct created is about all I can tell you 16:37:08 melvster, let's don't get stack on from which vocab we pick terms as long as we both can understand them in conversation 16:38:11 well you'll do a map reduce of all the quads you know, and extract the data, or do a sparql search 16:38:21 otherwise you have to guess 16:38:25 in general 1) i know your URI identyfing you 2) i know predicate i want to follow e.g. foaf:knows 3) i want to get have container of all the things which relate to you via this predicate 16:38:46 -bret 16:38:49 have you looked at https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design ? 16:38:59 a bit, i use hydra for other things tho 16:39:07 ldp container suits my uses 16:39:16 and let's forget sparql for this conversation if you don't mind 16:39:22 i dont mind 16:39:28 how do you discover relevant containers? 16:39:43 container of 'my friendss' or 'events i participate(d) in' or 'my wishlist' 16:39:45 discovery always works the same way in any context 16:40:01 foaf:knows, schema:event, gr:seeks ^ 16:40:15 1) follow your nose (preferred) 2) well known locations (or hard coding) -- specs are part of this 3) search ... 16:41:14 you will use the right approach for each job, so generally a probe sequence of follow your nose, if that fails you look in well known places (this is much more common than thought), then lastly you go to the web and issue a query 16:41:21 AFAIK currently following your nose to a *container* doesn't work that well, you can't use predicate directly because of rdfs:range (doesn't include container or rather implies that container has some particualar type)( 16:41:24 but im moving more towards streaming data 16:42:16 deiu, can you read last 4 lines? how do i *discover* container of all my friends, events i participated in, things i gr:seek 16:42:37 so far I find hydra:collection the most interesting https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design 16:42:46 query the web (since im not allow to say sp****) 16:43:28 deiu, my brainstorming https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L366 16:43:59 just put all your data in a single container 16:44:32 melvster, do you really think your comments help? (not questioning that they make sense in some way...) 16:45:01 elf-pavlik: be nice 16:45:28 melvster, happy hacking! 16:45:51 tantek has joined #social 16:46:25 elf-pavlik: I don’t understand your problem 16:46:32 You follow links, that’s all 16:46:54 https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper - me 16:47:26 i want to follow in inverse direction schema:author and get container of all the things i authored 16:47:49 this one tries to have also container of things i authored of particular type https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L370 16:47:59 the way I do it is like this: 16:48:04 hydra:type doens't exist, just playing with idea 16:48:55 I have a triple <#me> :storageServer , and if you dereference , you get a generic LDP container 16:49:16 all my apps use that link to find out where they can write/read data 16:49:43 if the doesn’t find a “common” container for it’s type of data, it creates a new one 16:50:01 deiu, what if i want to read list of 2000ppl linked to you via foaf:knows ? 16:50:02 Asambra made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82988&oldid=82987 16:50:50 this page explains how to 'find' collection containing it https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design 16:51:20 following already existing predicates but not messing with their rdfs:range 16:51:45 I’m not doing any owl reasoning 16:51:46 timbl has joined #social 16:51:53 but i can't do 16:52:10 <#me> foaf:knows [ a ldp:Container ] . 16:52:21 or maybe sholdn't ? 16:52:28 Don’t do that 16:52:46 I really doubt you understand LDP at this point 16:52:53 deiu++ 16:52:55 deiu has 1 karma 16:53:09 You should take a look at the primer maybe: www.w3.org/TR/ldp-primer 16:55:35 elf-pavlik: how do you discover who has linked to your homepage? 16:55:42 < > ldp:DirectContainer; 16:55:42 ldp:membershipResource <#it>; 16:55:42 ldp:hasMemberRelation bt:hasBug; 16:56:00 <#it> a bt:Product; 16:56:06 you are mixing up forward search and reverse search 16:56:31 for forward search you follow a link, for reverse search you need an index 16:56:40 how do i link from <#it> to that container 16:58:21 hmmm... i could just use inverse of ldp:membershipResource 16:59:15 { "@id": "#it", "@reverse": { "ldp:membershipResource": { "@type": "ldp:DirectContainer" } } 17:00:04 i guess i just looked for using inverse of ldp:membershipResource 17:02:39 just with this one I don't see a way to use ldp:hasMemberRelation and use inverse of that relation 17:03:32 as in https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design#Inverse_Relationship 17:04:58 sure! 17:05:25 i didnt really anticipate it being ready to demo yet, but we can give it a try! :) 17:06:36 scribe: sandro 17:06:42 scribenick: sandro 17:06:48 eprodrom has joined #social 17:07:37 yeah, no worries, the game I’ll also demo is even worse :) 17:07:42 i.e. very alpha 17:08:44 melvster, i look how to avoid 'fixed paths' as in https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md#types-of-address 17:08:51 http:///api/user//followers 17:09:13 and instead reuse existing predicates e.g. http://schema.org/follows 17:10:02 Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82989&oldid=82988 17:11:05 action-44 17:11:05 action-44 -- Pavlik elf to Collection - compare AS2 design with LDP, Hydra, Schema.org etc. -- due 2015-03-17 -- OPEN 17:11:05 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/44 17:11:06 q+ 17:11:54 my 50,000 foot take would be 17:12:07 q+ 17:12:09 1) microformats do POST with url form encoding and GET with HTML 17:12:23 AnnB has joined #social 17:12:23 2) pump.io does with JSON 17:12:34 using ldp:Container instead of as:Collection would give a first step to align 'social syntax' and 'social api' 17:12:37 elf-pavlik: can you see the screen? 17:12:42 (there's not a lot on it right now) 17:12:46 aaronpk, yes thx! 17:12:48 3) LD and does PUT/GET with RDF (including JSON-LD) with HTTP/POST 17:13:36 evan: yes, pump is AS1 JSON 17:13:44 ack harry 17:14:10 harry: so at a high level, there's a strong similarity between ldp and pump.io 17:14:28 tantek has joined #social 17:14:36 q? 17:14:38 evan: and if pump.io moves to AS2 as expected, they will be even more similar 17:14:59 +bblfish 17:15:09 Arnaud: clarification about LDP. LDP is general purpose. But you have to build more. 17:15:18 elf-pavlik: I agree about containers and collections 17:15:27 eprodrom, thx! 17:15:34 SOLID vs. PUSH 17:15:39 :) 17:15:49 SoLiD 17:15:52 sandro: I was trying over lunch to come up with a name, Social Linked Data, or SOLID 17:16:08 only a couple letters off from "silo" 17:16:12 -bblfish 17:16:17 puns++ 17:16:19 puns has 3 karma 17:16:28 q? 17:16:36 ...I'm SoLD ;) 17:16:42 !!! 17:17:10 s/...I'm SoLD ;)// 17:17:18 tantek: the bit that's it's not exactly LDP is important. "Just have to build upon it" is *the* hard problem! 17:17:45 .. no matter how many times someone CLAIMS it's easy, none of those claims have merit until there's running ccode and demos 17:17:48 q? 17:17:49 ack Arnaud 17:17:54 queue= 17:18:18 deiu: We're using LDP as a very basic way of writing data on the web. 17:19:12 deiu: (I'm both MIT research and W3C, working with Tim and Sandro) 17:19:19 bblfish has joined #social 17:19:25 deiu: Building linked data backends and apps 17:19:42 +bblfish 17:20:02 Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82990&oldid=82989 17:20:06 deiu: We're using LDP as a basic way for writing data on the web. It's a standard way of writing. We used to have POSTs and PUTs but it wasn't standard enough. 17:20:39 sandro: it's not just "post to create a new URL," but also a way to get back to those resources 17:20:49 -bblfish 17:21:02 when did you start? 17:21:14 deiu: there's more here than just LDP. We also use WebID for identifying users, 17:21:29 remember you can separate WebID = URL for person from TLS client certs as authentication. 17:21:33 deiu: ... and for access control, per resource 17:21:42 thnx 17:22:02 deiu: first demo, from one of our colaborators, at QCRI, Maged Zereba 17:22:05 WebID ~= WebID+TLS http://www.w3.org/2005/Incubator/webid/spec/ 17:22:18 s/~=/!=/ 17:22:49 deiu: ToDoApp (cf todomvc) 17:23:32 deiu: App gets your URL from your login process, finds your storage space 17:23:44 on some level, this is very similar to Unhosted 17:23:57 deiu: you can pick a different storage space, found linked from your webid (URL) 17:24:06 it is similar to unhosted, aye 17:24:16 / remoteStorage 17:24:47 deiu tries to fiddle with http://mzereba.github.io/todo/ 17:25:29 Arnaud1 has joined #social 17:26:04 it's just a creating a piece of content user story 17:26:43 deiu: edits his photo on a profile editor 17:26:55 [deiu demos a "make your profile" by changing his picture to a horse head] 17:27:59 deiu: it can include information from multiple sources or profiles, e.g. personal, employer, 17:28:01 deiu: demos how different bits of user profile are stored in different resources with different access-controls 17:28:43 deiu: webid.im chat app, using profile from before 17:28:58 what is the url for it? 17:29:06 melvster: get ready 17:29:52 just as this IRC channel 17:29:54 sandro: does each person post to their own site, or to some thrd place 17:29:57 sandro: posse? 17:30:02 Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82991&oldid=82990 17:30:06 deiu: not yet, one chat room 17:30:33 webid.im 17:30:39 which room are you in? 17:31:09 there's different workflows, public and one one one chats, but it's open ended 17:31:19 q+ 17:31:21 AnnB: Where is the linked data part of this? 17:31:37 sandro: you can fork, and it'll still interop 17:31:43 deiu: it uses FOAF and SIOC 17:31:46 deiu++ melvster++ 17:31:49 deiu has 2 karma 17:32:00 deiu: it also have liking and presensce 17:32:01 all data is stored on LDP of the users choice 17:32:33 deiu: demo http://cimba.co 17:32:37 melvster: does it store in both user's choices of storage? or do you have to pick one for the chat session? 17:32:40 melvster, can you post chatroom link on irc? 17:32:50 elf-pavlik: webid.im 17:33:13 bigbluehat: ill code that workflow in about a week after some testing 17:33:26 deiu: cimba has multiple channels, eg private 17:33:27 melvster: thanks! 17:33:46 https://deiu.rww.io/mb/ch1/post_11 17:35:10 Is there a channel I can go to have a conversation with Deiu? 17:35:14 sandro: right now that link opens with a generic data browser, but it should be more app specific 17:35:36 In his app 17:35:44 I think he already demo'd that with melvster, bblfish 17:35:50 cwebber2: No need to federate, because ti doesn't need to, because ti's just linking instances? 17:35:52 deiu: Yes 17:36:54 sandro: this is a place that motivated us thinking about s2s protocol, for perofmrnace 17:37:15 sandro: this wont scale to following 1000s of people 17:37:16 shepazu, http://socialwg.indiewebcamp.com/irc/social/2015-03-18/line/1426688583327 17:37:34 stevenroose has joined #social 17:37:40 harry: this is like unhosted, kind of 17:37:51 unhosted started on json-ld a while ago 17:37:53 not sure where that went 17:37:53 rhiaro, just pointed that out :) 17:37:55 sandro: but that's not social 17:38:01 oh sorry elf-pavlik :p 17:38:19 harry: At the next f2f I'd like to see group-based 17:38:39 rhiaro, I never finished setting them up with proper JSON-LD @context for various remoteStorage modules 17:38:44 rhiaro: unhosted have been using json ld for years ... they were one of the first, ive talked to michiel about aligning our work and theirs, he's quite open to it 17:38:53 deiu: Is there an ACL which gives you permission to write data? 17:39:00 melvster: cool 17:39:05 That's interesting! 17:39:12 melvster++ 17:39:14 yes, one can have an acl to write data, and it can be for groups of users 17:39:15 melvster has 8 karma 17:39:26 AdamB: user story about colab across enterprise boundaries 17:39:53 but yes, last time I did anything with unhosted/remoteStorage I hadn't figured out data sharing... although there was a microblogging app iirc 17:40:01 deeply curious what kind of rdf processing libraries / triple storage these demos are using, though I know that's not really a protocol question 17:40:03 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82992&oldid=82991 17:40:12 KevinMarks has joined #social 17:40:28 rhiaro: neat :) 17:40:42 rhiaro, http://friendsunhosted.com/ 17:40:47 bigbluehat, for the record, it's not a "Future of the Web" conference (which is another brand), it's W3Conf, for developers, with the theme being "Future of the Web" :)... if anyone wants a WG meeting there, let me know 17:41:29 but that had similar issue to one sandro pointed out with CIMBA (or as I understood it) 17:41:38 ah. I'll update harry's name database then ;) 17:41:43 shepazu: does it have a name? 17:41:59 bigbluehat, it's called W3Conf 17:42:05 spec for Web Access Control is here https://www.w3.org/wiki/WebAccessControl 17:42:14 with a picture showing how it works 17:42:14 deiu: shows us acl file for post_11 17:42:37 Augier has joined #social 17:42:48 deiu: read to everyone, read/write to owner 17:42:56 deiu: can do lists and groups 17:43:08 shepazu: much thanks 17:43:17 deiu: additional modes 17:43:23 deiu: demos acl editors 17:43:40 yes, you can have read to user or group, write to user or group, you can have read only or write only ... 17:43:44 +??P0 17:43:50 sandro: like a global filesystem 17:43:56 Zakim, ??P0 is me 17:43:56 +bret; got it 17:43:57 harry, does this user story apply to your question: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Co-operation_between_NGOs 17:44:06 q? 17:44:07 Zakim, mute me 17:44:07 bret should now be muted 17:44:11 ack harry 17:45:05 evan: I just signed up, can you show me how following works 17:45:13 deiu... not working 17:45:30 deiu: demos following Melvin 17:46:19 timbl has joined #social 17:46:30 evan: trash can, delete your own posts 17:46:34 evan: sorry I wasnt expecting to demo this, this early, it's oriented towards those with an existing populated social graph 17:46:54 s/evan:/evan,/ 17:47:00 but ill build a guide to walk new users through adding or importing contacts 17:47:21 akuckartz has joined #social 17:48:26 there will also be a people search widget at https://webizen.org/ 17:48:36 however adding a contact is *really* easy technically 17:48:58 deiu: demos calendar app, makes event, moves it to another day 17:48:59 just use HTTP PATCH with INSERT DATA { friend } ... and it's done 17:49:16 tantek: how do you invite someone? 17:49:23 sandro: webmention, maybe 17:49:32 deiu: or an inbox resource 17:50:18 tantek: so I hear it's not done yet 17:50:38 not done yet as far as I know 17:50:44 yep seems to be a pretty good match AdamB 17:50:46 but would be a really nice feature 17:50:52 rel="webmention" in or HTTP HEAD 17:50:57 tantek: we've found inboxed overly complex. just using webmention works. 17:51:04 http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/mvk/webbox-pim.pdf 17:51:33 the webmention endpoint header is the discovery mechanism 17:51:42 collections are cheap 17:51:52 deiu: how is rel=webmention less work than rel=inbox ? 17:51:56 also if you have a different collection you can have different access control rules 17:52:00 https://github.com/converspace/webmention/blob/master/README.md#sender-discovers-receiver-endpoint 17:52:35 for example you might want your collecetion to be write only to all other users apart from yourself 17:52:35 timbl: so they're punnning the inbox and the homepage 17:52:37 Link: ; rel="webmention" 17:52:43 17:53:00 sandro: a webmention endpoint is a lot like an inbox 17:53:09 webbox is called INDX now 17:53:09 Webmention sending can also happen with a form with a URL submission box <- aaronpk 17:53:09 more here on indieweb invitations: https://indiewebcamp.com/invitation#How_to 17:53:15 (dont forget that part) 17:53:16 timbl: webbox from southhampton 17:53:18 yes, so a webmention-endpoint is very much like an LDPC 17:53:26 you post to it, and it creates new resources 17:53:34 bblfish: good point 17:53:42 bblfish++ 17:53:42 https://github.com/sociam/indx 17:53:45 bblfish has 6 karma 17:54:01 tantek: we need the link-rel for static sites, etc 17:54:32 on rel and following your nose without 'fixed urls' https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Hypermedia 17:54:32 AnnB: How does the calendar use linked data? 17:54:35 ah yes, in LDP does not require every resource to support GET, PUT, POST, DELETE. Each resource can specify in the ehader what it supports 17:54:48 bblfish: that's good 17:54:55 my point was that strict REST assumptions don't work for static sites 17:54:59 so strict REST is a non-starter 17:55:26 deiu: every event has it own URI 17:55:32 tantek, I don't think we need to support static websites! 17:55:45 nice that IndieWeb does it but i guess we don't want to make it a requirement 17:55:46 elf-pavlik, sounds like an ISSUE 17:55:53 elf-pavlik: we absolutely need to support static websites - as shown by people here with *.github.io URLs 17:55:54 https://deiu.rww.io/apps/cal/events#f49eb3f09543ffc09de291c7a2ffa08b3f656c71 17:56:04 elf-pavlik: INCLUDING one of the demos by deiu! 17:56:10 which used a *.github.io URL 17:56:11 staticsites++ 17:56:14 staticsites has 2 karma 17:56:17 ISSUE: do we put requirement on supporting static websites? 17:56:17 Created ISSUE-24 - Do we put requirement on supporting static websites?. Please complete additional details at . 17:56:26 what are static web sites? 17:56:28 demonstration of a decentralized event http://aaronparecki.com/events/2015/03/17/1/socialwg-2015 17:56:31 elf-pavlik: :[ 17:56:45 with distributed RSVPs 17:56:56 including RSVPs backfed from a POSSE silo copy of the event 17:57:11 bblfish, static site generator - no content negotiation, GET only (did i get it right?) 17:57:12 bblfish: a website made up of plain html text files served with a generic server like apache/nginx or something else 17:57:23 umm 17:57:30 deiu: explains how we're using a resource browser (called WARP) to wander the data space (aka filesystem) 17:57:42 see also: https://indiewebcamp.com/static-site 17:57:47 ah yes, that works. My demo yesterday with the FOAF explorer was just that. Most of the foaf was served simply by bog standard apache web servers 17:57:53 aaronpk: how do I rsvp and indicate remote participation? 17:57:57 elf-pavlik: you could do conneg with a static site, but I don't imagine many people would want to 17:58:08 aaronpk: nm just add a note 17:58:09 bret: i only recognize "yes/maybe/no" rsvps right now 17:58:11 static sites are growing in popularity thanks to *.github.io 17:58:13 but yeah just add a note 17:58:24 like whats the diff.... im here and i'm remote 17:58:28 that's explanation in the wiki page https://github.com/read-write-web/wiki/wiki 17:58:29 timbl has joined #social 17:58:32 deiu: shamblokus game 17:58:49 just FYI: my chat app runs as a static or client side site too, FLOSS, MIT license 17:59:15 deiu: makes an ingognito window so he can play both players 18:01:13 deiu: plays blockus 18:01:51 deiu: One resource for the game, writable by each player, websocket notifications of changes 18:01:56 don't you guys have anything to do ? 18:02:00 ;-) 18:02:18 deiu: (this app was written by my wife, last weekend) 18:03:09 timbl: You could catch cheaters, with other people changing the board in the way they're not allowed to 18:03:39 SimonTennant has joined #social 18:03:47 evan: this game demo isn't exactly in scope. 18:03:50 Well done! 18:03:57 deiu: that's it! 18:04:04 cool demos 18:04:48 q+ to demo distributed event + RSVP (added to agenda after Andrei's demos) 18:04:54 eprodrom: No established mechanism way to subscribe? 18:05:11 sandro: cimba uses a "follows" vocab 18:05:29 eprodrom: did you look at AS2 for this? 18:05:44 deiu: this was a year ago, before AS2 18:05:54 sandro, link to 'follows' vocab? 18:05:54 timbl has joined #social 18:05:57 q? 18:06:04 q+ 18:06:06 ack tantek 18:06:06 tantek, you wanted to demo distributed event + RSVP (added to agenda after Andrei's demos) 18:06:11 deiu++ melvster++ sandro++ timbl++ 18:06:13 deiu has 3 karma 18:06:17 deiu +1 18:06:22 elf-pavlik, maybe w3.org/ns/mblog? but look at what cimba writes. 18:06:26 Very good explanation 18:06:33 ok 18:07:08 this page has SIOC : has_subscriber to a blog : https://deiu.rww.io/mb/following 18:07:39 topic: Tantek demo of calendar 18:09:00 tantek: rsvp posse'd to facebook and others 18:10:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82993&oldid=82992 18:10:05 and I, who do not have my own domain, tried to RSVP but could not 18:10:11 tantek: distributed invitations 18:10:38 (pointing out that some might not have their own domains ... e.g., my mom) 18:10:43 (or me) 18:11:00 tantek: event was federated via webmention, with favorites, to twitter and facebook 18:11:11 AnnB++ 18:11:13 AnnB has 12 karma 18:11:34 AnnB AFAIK IndieWeb folks will ask you to get at least subdomain, but then still you may need to deal with setting up your SSL 18:11:36 (or, maybe I didn't know how to RSVP in some other manner) 18:12:09 my point is, elf-pavlik, I think it's unreasonable to expect the every person will have the interest or skill to do that 18:12:10 tantek: a favoriting on twitter of my rsvp turns into a mention of the event 18:12:20 AnnB, I agree! 18:12:46 we had this discussion on mailing list, and Pump.io, MediaGoblin, Diaspora, Friendica and many other systems don't put such requirement on people 18:12:52 just an IndieWeb thing 18:12:59 AnnB: I tried to reply but it didnt work 18:13:14 q? 18:13:15 aaronpk: maybe something about your facebook account wasn't completely public 18:13:35 AnnB++ 18:13:38 AnnB: I love all of this, but I don't think it's reasonable for everyone to have their own domain 18:13:38 AnnB has 13 karma 18:13:51 q+ 18:14:05 tantek: no, this works with facebook just fine (modulo privacy settings) 18:14:14 plh has left #social 18:14:34 the domain requirement is a design (and conference attendance) constraint. known provides people with these features without a domain and its not inherent in the tech 18:14:35 timbl: How is this a privacy issue? 18:14:35 for the record .. these guys explain that my RSVP from Facebook may not have come through due to my privacy settings in Facebook 18:14:40 IndieWeb --- option --- option --- option --- Silo (F,T,G) etc. 18:14:47 in other words, nothing about me having my own domain 18:14:52 ben_thatmustbeme: brid.gy probably doesn't have access 18:15:00 q? 18:15:08 http://indiewebcamp.com/Bridgy 18:15:30 tantek: it also has a policy against anything that's not 100% public 18:16:10 tantek: Also there are hosted options, like withknown.com 18:16:17 +q 18:16:20 q? 18:16:30 ack 18:16:32 ack harry 18:16:44 harry: I thikn we should return to URL encoding before the end of the day 18:16:49 evan: After break 18:16:50 ack cwebber2 18:17:00 ack cwebber2 18:17:05 ack cwebber 18:17:11 cwebber2: to be a mild troll here... 18:17:24 AnnB: (mediagoblin!) 18:17:29 jaywink has joined #social 18:17:47 cwebber2: federation, silos, ... is there more than one brid.gy instance? 18:17:55 q+ 18:18:20 tantek: It's 100% open source, so anyone can make their own instance. So like PuSH hubs, one can make your own on your own site 18:18:59 cwebber2: Isn't this the same worry you had about PuSH, that there's only webmention brid.gy 18:19:09 tantek: this is just for snowflake APIs 18:19:26 aaronpk: brid.gy wouldn't be necessary if the silos did webmention 18:19:52 eprodrom++ 18:19:54 eprodrom: I'm concerned we're spending too much time on bridges 18:19:54 eprodrom has 7 karma 18:20:17 tantek: But a bridge between webmention and pump.io would be awesome, and it help us understand the issues. 18:20:39 thanks for tolerating my troll :) 18:20:55 timbl: bridges are great for helping understand, but they do take time 18:21:04 cwebber2: not a troll at all - that was an excellent question 18:21:06 q? 18:21:06 q? 18:21:09 tantek: they're also great for outreach 18:21:12 cwebber2++ for asking the hard questions 18:21:14 cwebber2 has 18 karma 18:21:15 ack Arnaud 18:21:19 q- 18:22:00 Arnaud: one bridging, I understand practical need, but doesn't it defeat the premise that you're in control of your data, since you've copied the data into facebook -- now they have it, and they own that copy 18:22:10 tantek: Facebook could go away and you'd still have it. 18:22:14 zakim, who is here? 18:22:14 On the phone I see confroom, bret (muted) 18:22:16 On IRC I see jaywink, timbl, SimonTennant, akuckartz, KevinMarks, Arnaud, bblfish, tantek, AnnB, eprodrom, elf-pavlik, jeff, tilgovi, melvster, deiu, Zakim, RRSAgent, AdamB, fjh, 18:22:16 ... danbri1, shepazu, wilkie, rhiaro, cwebber2, Tsyesika, sandro, Loqi, nickstenn, aaronpk, oshepherd, wseltzer, ElijahLynn, ben_thatmustbeme, mattl, JakeHart, bret, dwhly, 18:22:16 ... bigbluehat, rektide, trackbot 18:22:22 zakim, code? 18:22:22 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), fjh 18:22:30 eprodrom: it protects against deletion, not reading 18:22:42 q+ 18:22:45 q? 18:22:45 you dont have to send a copy to facebook luckily 18:22:50 Arnaud: this doesn't help protect against profiling 18:22:55 +[IPcaller] 18:23:00 zakim, ipcaller is me 18:23:00 +fjh; got it 18:23:30 tantek: How much is it worth to you (in terms of being profiled) to invite your facebook-only friends? That's the tradeoff each person needs to make. 18:24:03 ack bblfish 18:24:04 q? 18:24:15 zakim, who's on the phone? 18:24:15 On the phone I see confroom, bret (muted), fjh 18:24:17 don't worry. Just was going to say 18:24:31 (Maybe could have ACL control so the brdge wil check ACL and only brionge things which have public ACLs) 18:24:41 that if we make a W3C API then Facebook can implement it, and then we won't need a proxy API 18:24:49 harry has joined #social 18:24:58 q? 18:24:58 :-) 18:25:16 bblfish++ 18:25:19 bblfish has 7 karma 18:25:20 topic: Social API 18:25:31 bblfish-- 18:25:33 You can't karma yourself! 18:25:44 just checking Loqi 18:25:50 :-) 18:26:37 I'm happy to modify and give them a specific time-window 18:27:00 :-) 18:27:04 eprodrom: Narrowed down yesterday to pump.io, indieweb, ldp/solid, ... with anyone new who comes in needs demos, evididence, etc 18:27:04 bblfish: i think facebook would rather bask in walled garden 18:27:09 ;) 18:27:22 s/h:/h,/ 18:27:26 sadly, bret, seems to be true 18:27:39 of course that's how they make their money 18:27:43 s/garden/gardens 18:27:49 eprodrom: Matrix? permalinks, screenshots 18:27:56 rhiaro has 36 karma 18:27:57 permalinks++ 18:27:59 permalinks has 2 karma 18:28:52 q? 18:29:00 q+ 18:29:07 tantek: number of users, number of implementations 18:29:44 eprodrom: Another criterion is whether the new api is compatible with federation protocol 18:29:58 eprodrom: we've talked about that a little bit. 18:30:57 eprodrom: Good chance of merging solid and pump.io 18:31:35 tantek: I object since solid isn't properly defined 18:31:39 q+ 18:31:40 Arnaud: there is an ldp spec 18:31:56 eprodrom: Less of a chance to merge pump.io and micropub 18:32:20 aaronpk: I'm only wedding to form ending until there's an argument 18:32:39 s/ending/encoding 18:32:46 tantek: One could build a bridge 18:32:57 i would be interested in researching whats involved in a bridge 18:33:02 eprodrom: We could have two outputs, yes, with a bridge between them 18:33:15 between pump and indieweb stuffs 18:33:15 eprodrom: <3 <3 <3 18:33:26 q? 18:33:34 ack q 18:33:41 ack AnnB 18:34:05 AnnB: I applaud the point about figuring out how this would be decided 18:34:32 q? 18:34:47 AnnB: This reminds me of the endless arguments about how to determine pricing the slips on a dock. 18:35:11 sandro: We need to get beyond self-interest to find the areas of mutual interest 18:35:23 AnnB: http://shed.bike/ :) 18:35:29 elf-pavlik: at 15h EDT 18:35:30 famous email ;) 18:35:55 (in case you didn't know the reference) 18:36:05 harry: I see the conflict. But. URL encoding for POST is good. For GET, I understand the preference for microformats, but I see a large community that wants JSON 18:36:16 .. I think those are both solvable. 18:36:29 .. worse case you mandata both 18:36:47 .. the difference seem big, but I think they're manageable 18:36:55 .. there are lots of smaller differences 18:37:05 .. matrix idea is about use cases 18:37:12 .. and now I need to go 18:37:25 q? 18:37:28 ack harry 18:37:39 +bblfish 18:38:08 videos + permalinks 18:38:11 tantek: matrix idea could be useful, if it had permalinks 18:38:20 permalnks to posts 18:38:28 q? 18:38:36 of the outcome of doing the user stories 18:38:46 eprodrom: Next steps 18:38:51 .. continue with matrix 18:39:14 there is a lot of noise 18:40:02 Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82995&oldid=82993 18:40:16 s/she/shade/ 18:40:17 q+ 18:40:38 http://meme.loqi.me/4aCTXUk4.jpg 18:40:44 sandro: we don't have commitment from everyone to support a majority-decision choice 18:40:55 tantek: we don't even have that on AS2 18:41:31 eprodrom:As co-chair, I'd rather ship something, even if it's sometihng I don't really like 18:41:36 timbl has joined #social 18:41:41 shipping nothing can be a good idea sometimes 18:41:57 q? 18:42:07 eprodrom: We will need to make a decision at some point soon. eg by May 1st at the latest 18:42:21 eprodrom: a little less than six weeks 18:42:36 tantek: I thought we'd try for more convegence 18:42:48 q? 18:43:06 +1 to tantek on encouraging cooperation and convergence 18:43:09 +1 18:43:15 q- 18:43:15 tantek: let's try for more collaboration and learning 18:43:17 +1 to convergence also 18:43:23 +1 convergence 18:43:24 I was going to say what timbl is saying 18:43:25 q+ 18:43:44 where it is useful 18:43:45 sandro: are you saying we recommend 3 stacks 18:43:47 timbl: no 18:43:57 timbl: e.g. we had CSS and XSLT 18:44:07 (meaning XSLFO) 18:44:14 timbl: I'd be against a sharp cutoff on dev on non-selected stacks 18:44:48 tantek: CSS and XSLFO were RECs 18:45:02 q? 18:45:13 tantek: It could be a success recommending more than one, if they have different areas of utility 18:45:22 -0 or maybe -1 on multiple recommendations, I'd really rather avoid that direction, but +1 on convergence 18:45:23 we could have on RPC based (like micropub and sockethub) and one more REST pump.io, LDP, Hydra, LDF 18:45:33 q+ 18:45:38 ack bblfish 18:46:19 bblfish: That sounds reasonable. Maybe some ways to get consensus, by looking at how similarly we actually tackle a user story. 18:46:24 I think convergence is really helpful, I agree that we probably don't have that much difference 18:46:57 q? 18:47:05 zakim, close queue! 18:47:05 I don't understand 'close queue!', wseltzer 18:47:10 though I worry if we end up with multiple apis / federation standards we haven't solved the problem of "here's a fractured set of decentralized standards" :) 18:47:30 i share the same concerns cwebber2 18:47:34 https://twitter.com/SocialWebWG/status/527499121725157376 18:47:36 @SocialWebWG :: three different action models out there right now: http://t.co/uhirAPeuWx, #AS action handlers, and @w3c #Hydra. convergence would be great. 18:47:46 eprodrom: I'd be more comfortable putting forward two proposals that have different applications than two that are very similar and differ only in style 18:47:51 elf-pavlik: who is posting on SocialWebWG? 18:48:00 AFAIK the chairs do not have access to that account 18:48:03 Erik 18:48:09 is that documented anywhere? 18:48:13 eprodrom: looking for more solid ldp-based suggestion 18:48:15 cwebber2: http://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/standards.png 18:48:16 cwebber2, I do think it moves toward getting things standardized though. If you publish 3 specs, its a lot better than everyone do their own thing. You build interconnection where needed 18:48:25 tantek, see https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg#Social_Media 18:48:34 ben_thatmustbeme: :) 18:48:37 er 18:48:39 deiu: :) 18:48:39 thanks elf-pavlik 18:48:47 deiu++ 18:48:50 deiu has 4 karma 18:48:52 eprodrom: looking for opportunities for ... 18:49:00 sandro: maybe make a call for FPWDs? 18:49:07 +1 convergence 18:49:08 s/sandro:/tantek: :) 18:49:59 eprodrom: Can we make multiple competing drafts and then kill some of them? 18:50:01 sandro: yes 18:50:04 Arnaud: yes 18:50:15 q? 18:50:22 ack eprodrom 18:50:26 wseltzer: turn them into NOTES... 18:50:33 I would love to work on eventually converging these with minor changes. we may never get there, but if we can get the specs down to a point of "here are the 2 or 3 things that we differ on but everything else is the same" i think that would make for a possible convergence 18:50:37 !meme two drafts enter, one draft leaves [thunderdome] 18:50:38 BREAK until 3:20 18:50:38 http://meme.loqi.me/4aC6xzCx.jpg 18:50:41 -fjh 18:50:43 or you standardize a few minor options at that point 18:50:55 -bblfish 19:00:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82996&oldid=82995 19:01:31 -bret 19:09:47 http://gmarceau.qc.ca/articles/your-wrists-hurt-you-must-be-a-programmer.html for those with wrist issues 19:11:00 thanks for that cwebber2 19:16:08 np ben_thatmustbeme 19:18:55 +bblfish 19:19:22 the_frey has joined #social 19:21:16 the_frey has joined #social 19:24:13 ben_thatmustbeme, yes for at least the first part of Thursday 19:24:24 excellent 19:24:28 hi 19:24:38 should we be in the photo? 19:25:08 -bblfish 19:25:38 deiu has joined #social 19:27:33 bblfish, https://www.w3.org/community/webzakim/ 19:28:32 timbl has joined #social 19:29:14 bewww beww bewww 19:30:08 +bblfish 19:31:02 elf-pavlik: :) 19:31:06 I want to reiterate my proposal 19:31:41 scribenick: wseltzer 19:31:48 PROPOSAL: the WG encourage co-evolution and bridge-building across Social API candidates, instead of competition towards a date-driven selection 19:31:59 +1 19:32:19 scribe: Tsyesika 19:32:27 -bblfish 19:32:29 scribenick: Tsyesika 19:32:32 photos are uploading now... will add to the wiki when they are done! 19:32:32 username is eprodrom 19:32:46 +bblfish 19:32:51 evan: harry wanted to discuss using URL templates or follow your nose discovery API 19:32:58 +1 19:33:08 evan: are there other items we wanted to get onto the agenda before we move forward? 19:33:40 tantek: I tried to collect all the additional items we didn't get to here, the floor is open for people to pick items core to our work to discuss 19:33:47 tantek, even picked one from 15.20-16.50 slot 19:33:55 s/even/evan/ 19:34:09 sandro: I'd like to talk about interoperability between different formats, JSON and form encoding, etc. 19:34:41 +1 on Tantek's proposal 19:35:01 +1 19:35:04 +1 19:35:06 eprodrom has joined #social 19:35:24 although also supporting Evan's point that we need to get something done sooner than later 19:35:26 eprodrom: One agenda item is URL templates vs follow your nose 19:35:28 +1 19:35:35 +1 19:35:38 (ie that was the point of having a date) 19:36:04 +1 19:36:30 tantek: I'd suggest we do this one first 19:36:44 eprodrom: we have more from sandro discussing cross mediatypes 19:36:50 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax#Serialization 19:36:51 tantek: after follow your nose? 19:38:10 what's happening? 19:38:40 eprodrom: group photo - check 19:38:49 ... harry asked us to discuss URL templates vs follow your nose 19:39:03 ... are these concpets familiar or should i take some time to explain what we mean? 19:39:10 e.g. https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md#types-of-address 19:39:23 has 'fixed path' http:///api/user//followers 19:39:34 tantek: so that was my request, if we could do my proposal first 19:39:38 and could reuse predicates like http://schema.org/follows 19:39:58 more details in quotes on https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Hypermedia 19:39:59 +??P6 19:40:02 Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82999&oldid=82996 19:40:03 Eprodrom made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82998&oldid=82997 19:40:09 Zakim, ??P6 is me 19:40:09 +bret; got it 19:40:16 Zakim, mute me 19:40:16 bret should now be muted 19:40:37 tantek: this was the propsal 19:40:42 tantek: does anyone object to this? 19:41:06 eprodrom: I'd like to know what the meaning is from a process standpoint. Is there an expectation that we could get to three candidates to one 19:41:26 tantek: I think the expetation is we take multiple candidates 19:41:44 tantek: having them co-evolve and influance each other greatly benefitted both of them which wasn't expected at the time 19:42:37 sandro: what would be nice is to use similiar language to talk about similiar features and it'll become obvious 19:43:26 eprodrom: I think this makes sense, we could describe an anti-pattern we be lazy and don't take on the task of making decisions 19:43:41 e.g. RPC API like micropub/webmention/sockethub/Pump.io(commands) and REST API like LDP/Hydra/LDF/Pump.io(paths) 19:44:09 ... if we're doing something because we think it's right then that's alright but if we're doing things because we don't want to make the tough decision then i'd rather we took the time to do the tough stuff 19:44:49 tantek: there is a complete lack of consumer participation in this WG. I feel that there is a lot to learn from each other specs 19:45:22 ... there has been a lot of advancement in them in the last few years, take micropub which is only 2 years old. I want to continue the rapid development 19:45:48 Arnaud: maybe there is a compromise that can be made for now, we can revisit it later. 19:46:12 q+ 19:46:25 q- 19:46:32 sandro: Publishing working multiple drafts could could bring others to the table 19:46:37 q+ 19:46:45 sandro: and they might have strong inputs 19:46:55 q? 19:47:07 2 open APIs better than 20k snowflake APIs ;) 19:47:13 ack bblfish 19:47:18 elf-pavlik++ 19:47:20 elf-pavlik has 13 karma 19:48:05 can you retype? 19:48:21 bblfish: I could imagine a working draft which could address ping that could... 19:48:26 PROPOSAL: the WG encourage co-evolution and bridge-building across Social API candidates, instead of competition towards a date-driven selection 19:48:27 i didn't catch all that sorry bblfish 19:48:31 +1 19:48:32 +1 19:48:33 +1 19:48:34 +1 19:48:34 +1 19:48:34 +1 19:48:35 +1 19:48:40 +1 19:48:41 +1 19:48:43 +1 19:49:13 I think bblfish said he could imagine "micro working drafts" on specific topics 19:49:31 tantek: i think this is a good testimonial to this group. a lot of people outside the group don't expect us to agree on anything and because we are able to agree and colabourate 19:49:37 +1 I imagine we can build a few micro proposals for specific use cases and then find points of agreement ( such as standard vocab ) 19:49:50 AnnB: we should write a small explanatory proposal to explain the logic 19:49:56 q? 19:49:57 then we can draw these together to build bundles of agreement 19:50:01 Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83002&oldid=82999 19:50:02 Rhiaro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83001&oldid=83000 19:50:06 RESOLVED: the WG encourage co-evolution and bridge-building across Social API candidates, instead of competition towards a date-driven selection 19:50:17 is there general consensus also that the ideal world though is 1 proposal that everyone is pretty happy with over 2 proposals I assume? ;) 19:50:21 s/explain the logic/ explain the logic of recommending 2 paths/ 19:50:27 (if we do) 19:50:27 eprodrom: lets move to the next item which is fixed URL format vs follow your nose 19:50:27 even if we do end up that route, which is better than some alternatives 19:50:36 ... this has come up a few times 19:50:42 tantek: can someone provide an overview 19:50:45 cwebber2: yeah I think that is understood 19:51:12 e.g. https://github.com/e14n/pump.io/blob/master/API.md#types-of-address 19:51:12 has 'fixed path' http:///api/user//followers 19:51:15 q+ 19:51:18 definitely in favor of follow-your-nose 19:51:20 eprodrom: the rough idea is that you can always find your followers at //followers but if there was a follow your nose you would look for a link with a rel type and follow that 19:51:38 ... most would agree there is a lot more flexable with follow your nose because you can put that where you want 19:51:40 based on experience of interop across disparate systems, modularity, flexibility of webarch 19:51:50 sandro: you could put a high traffic one on another server 19:52:05 eprodrom: there are a few downsides with follow your nose, one is multiple requests 19:52:15 'fixed URL formats' vs. 'follow your nose' (URI opacity & URI Templates) should really be 'fixed URL formats' vs. 'follow your nose' (URI templates vs URI opacity) 19:52:22 ... if i request the same info over and over there is overhead, there is a request, parse, re-request 19:52:29 ... obviously caching is important here for clients 19:53:10 ... the second is the problem with defacto standadisation. Everytime a developer see's there is a link and will take shortcuts and notice the link is the same everytime 19:53:22 q? 19:53:24 ... and then there are problems with smaller nodes which can't implement that format 19:53:32 ... then it becomes a defacto standard 19:53:39 is this issue in tracker? 19:54:04 nope 19:54:15 ... for third party developmers a new follow your nose type system is going to be difficult for them 19:54:55 ... i think harry wanted to address it, i brought it up as an issue as it's come up a few times and it's been strongly suggested we use follow your nose 19:54:57 I don't know what I'm talking about, but what if there was a recommended URL pattern backed up by a simple discovery mechanism if you don't find it there? 19:54:58 q+ re: reusing vocab terms and clear connection between 'data syntax' and API 19:55:13 ... are we unanmous on doing a disocvery, it's the way micropub and webmentions work... 19:55:40 ... pump.io does it through webfinger discovery and it also does it through activity streams link elements 19:55:52 ... there are links to users, replies and likes 19:55:52 q+ 19:56:02 q? 19:56:08 q? 19:56:11 ack bblfish 19:56:21 s/unanmous /unanimous / 19:56:29 bblfish: so the way of solving this is to show that these aren't incompatible 19:56:59 yes 19:57:06 ... it's difficult to get people to agree on URL patterns and they don't want to agree on it and there are URL patterns which already exist 19:57:10 and i have to mute this one 19:57:14 q+ 19:57:17 ... you're restricting where you don't need to 19:57:29 q+ to try to clarify and bund what Harry quoted me as saying 19:57:36 ... and then there is obviously the efficiancy issue. 19:58:45 i can just type, 3-4 lines 19:58:58 bblfish - can you type in your last part about efficiency 19:59:11 http://www.w3.org/2001/sw/wiki/POWDER 19:59:22 I think this can be a building block for building that 19:59:46 timbl: power is a way to say everything under XXX is unsuitable for children, you can make sweeping declorations 19:59:53 Real link: http://www.w3.org/TR/powder-primer/ 20:00:02 q? 20:00:19 q? 20:00:20 ... it was designed on putting metadata on suitability for children or licensing. I'm not so sure to turn it around backwards and say if it has certain properties 20:00:37 q? 20:00:42 ack elf-pavlik 20:00:42 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss reusing vocab terms and clear connection between 'data syntax' and API 20:00:54 instead of paths like http:///api/user//followers 20:01:04 we can reuse predicates like http://schema.org/follows 20:01:22 elf-pavlik, speak! 20:01:22 elf-pavlik: go ahead 20:01:30 but it has issue with collections/containers which hydra:Collection tries to resolve https://www.w3.org/community/hydra/wiki/Collection_Design 20:01:31 louder! 20:01:39 nope 20:01:43 no good. 20:01:51 type it please, elf 20:01:52 i'll just type 2 more lines 20:02:09 so we can link to *collection* of followers https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/574193664974520320 20:02:11 @elfpavlik :: Collections in #RDF? https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/issues/82#issuecomment-77688096 @LDPWG @SocialWebWG @danbri @kidehen @manusporny @jasnell https://twitter.com/elfpavlik/status/574193664974520320/photo/1 20:02:13 Please just type it 20:02:13 eprodrom: please just type it 20:02:31 using schema:follows (or inverse) 20:02:47 reusing vocab terms (predicates) instead hardcoding paths 20:02:57 tantek: i'm still having difficulty understanding the powder statement 20:02:57 q? 20:03:06 * problem statement 20:03:08 Thanks elf-pavlik 20:03:12 ack sandro 20:03:15 s/powder/problem 20:03:37 q+ 20:03:46 sandro: i agree with evan's analysis. I feel concerned all these popular APIs don't do this, i presume this is because developers have found this more complicated 20:03:59 ... has anyone in the indiewebcamp has anyone asked about this? 20:04:07 Don't silos do this because they don't need interop? people will just do what the api docs say? 20:04:21 +1 rhiaro 20:04:25 +1 to rhiaro's point 20:04:33 tantek: this has been so easy and developers have so little time but there are loads of libraries that they can just drop in. There has been no push back of people asking for hard coded paths 20:04:56 ack eprodrom 20:04:58 eprodrom: new social networks start all the time (secret, instergram) 20:05:46 no need to parse HTML! 20:05:59 ... if a new social network came out and their documentation did not look like social networks which came before and instead it says to start with the discovery where the links are - I think it's unlikely they would, i think it's likely they will just put out the URL patterns and not the discovery process 20:06:05 discovery can happen in a Link header fwiw--then there's no HTML parsing 20:06:30 sandro: Hopefully they wouldn't even have to do that, they can just point to a spec and they can just point to that and say "we use that" 20:06:36 my point in full above comes in 2 parts: 20:06:36 A. Global convergence problem 20:06:36 1. reduction of constraints allows people to get to an agreement globally 20:06:38 2. it is very difficult to get people to agree on names of URIs ( imagine difficulty of getting japanese to agree to use « person » for a URL 20:06:40 3. patterns create unecessary constraints 20:06:42 B. Efficiency 20:06:43 q? 20:06:44 1. if a web site wanted to do something that is efficient a site could use POWDER to build a pattern of URLS 20:06:46 that would allow sites to help navigate more quickly through this 20:06:48 eprodrom: I think this is the concern. I'm willing to let it go 20:06:50 ack timbl 20:06:50 timbl, you wanted to try to clarify and bund what Harry quoted me as saying 20:07:06 timbl: this has been put on the agenda because I said something about this 20:08:02 timbl: I want to distinguish between reading and writing 20:08:19 timbl: for *reading* it's great to follow your nose 20:08:30 timbl has joined #social 20:09:14 ... follow your nose = follow URLs 20:09:28 timbl: when you're following links, you should be following links 20:09:38 http://patterns.dataincubator.org/book/follow-your-nose.html 20:09:44 s/follow URLs/follow links/ 20:10:18 timbl: if you're selling me linked-data-writing software, I don't want YOU to say where they're going, I want to be able to say I store my vcards by date, or something 20:10:34 q+ 20:10:43 timbl: eg by name, eg by uuid 20:11:02 ... what happens on a mac. If you want to write an app and store data then you should put it under a specific path. 20:11:06 timbl: on MacOS, you put stuff in a certain suggested path 20:11:11 ... geek conventions 20:12:09 timbl: when it comes to writing your data, I want to be able to parameterize my software, to tell it how to make up URIs for storing stuff. 20:12:13 here are also some suggestions for URL designs for data: http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design (feel free to add / feedback inline) 20:12:29 q+ to say there's also room for documenting known best practices 20:12:31 https://www.w3.org/2015/03/vcard-footprint/footprint.html 20:12:56 timbl: no one in LD community has discussed that .. probly would run away screaming 20:13:05 timbl: "When you store this kind of data, the URLs are going to look like this", a "footprint" 20:13:12 ... example of one technique I used 20:13:20 ... small set of rules 20:13:45 timbl: the result is completely follow your nose 20:13:48 q? 20:13:51 q+ 20:13:51 tantek: can you load up https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/Twitter_API ? 20:14:09 ack Arnaud 20:15:06 Arnaud: so I wanted to get back to the point you are raising. We're making things more complicated, it's if people understand the value of having this complication, this gives the flexability of where you can store this stuff, silos don't need this flexability 20:15:17 ... they just say "this is where our data is you can get it there" 20:15:30 q+ to also say silos break their paths with API versioning too! E.g. Twitter 1.1 20:15:31 ... but we can't adopt this posision 20:15:35 ack eprodrom 20:15:45 right now we have a level of indirection... but it is non-programatic, you have to check the docs on a particular host 20:15:50 s/posision/position/ 20:16:00 eprodrom: what we're trading off is simplicity for the client, familiarity for the dev. I want to make sure we're conciously trading those off as we'll have to defent that 20:16:09 q+ re: data doesn't need to leave on same server/domain 20:16:11 s/defent/defend/ 20:16:12 Arnaud: there is always a trade off between flexability and complexity 20:16:44 eprodrom: i think for individuals and small groups where putting my API under several levels of dirs because i run several apps on my domain - this makes a lot of sense 20:16:59 ... for cloud hosting or companies this is less of an issue because they can have a seporate domain 20:17:22 so you have to look up that site X stores at /users/bob you have to either know their pattern or find their documentation. We are just talking about a useful markup for it 20:17:29 s/leave/'live'/ 20:17:41 ... a way this could work is there is always a directory tree 20:17:46 q+ 20:17:48 q+ 20:17:53 q- 20:17:59 q- 20:18:07 simpler for the client if the client is only limited to one server 20:18:14 ... there is inflexability on the server side but we trade this for flexability on the client side 20:18:15 bblfish++ 20:18:18 bblfish has 8 karma 20:18:20 q? 20:18:24 but as soon as you have friends across servers it does not work 20:18:31 -bblfish 20:19:12 q? 20:19:20 +bblfish 20:19:29 q? 20:19:31 timbl has joined #social 20:19:41 timbl: say a generic API where the URIs could be anything, then you can imagine annotating facebook you could abitary (?) 20:19:42 ack tantek 20:19:42 tantek, you wanted to say there's also room for documenting known best practices and to also say silos break their paths with API versioning too! E.g. Twitter 1.1 20:20:03 Tantekelik made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83005&oldid=83002 20:20:17 Zakim, who is on the call? 20:20:17 On the phone I see confroom, bret (muted), bblfish 20:20:22 ack tantek 20:20:22 PROPOSED: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider 20:20:24 http://indiewebcamp.com/URL_design 20:20:30 tantek: so this might be a mut point as i agree. We could document patterns. 20:20:34 +1 20:20:41 giving normative suggestions is a good idea 20:20:56 ... the second piece of info, silos break these hard coded paths frequently. Twitter iterated to 2.0 and broke all of 1.0 paths 20:20:58 s/mut/moot/ 20:21:45 ... for a long time i was skeptical but keeping permalinks around 20:21:58 humans.txt? 20:22:14 http://humanstxt.org/ 20:22:18 q? 20:22:21 Lol 20:22:23 ack sandro 20:22:28 q+ 20:22:32 agree with tantek 20:22:43 sandro: you can also do this with rel=author 20:22:45 q- 20:22:51 my photos, videos, audio etc. can all stay hosted on different servers and different domains! can't always reach them from path 'under' my online profile 20:22:54 ack elf-pavlik 20:22:54 elf-pavlik, you wanted to discuss data doesn't need to leave on same server/domain 20:22:58 20:22:59 ( so this meeting is already being very positive ) 20:23:02 my photos, videos, audio etc. can all stay hosted on different servers and different domains! can't always reach them from path 'under' my online profile 20:23:04 sandro: ^^ 20:23:06 e.g. https://github.com/elf-pavlik/webprofiled/blob/master/test/fixtures/perpetual-tripper/index.json#L368-L371 20:23:13 my account: https://wwelves.org/perpetual-tripper 20:23:18 http://humanstxt.org/humans.txt 20:23:23 my photos folder: http://media.hackers4peace.net/19a95844-4180-4325-9b3a-ec5ec6d04dc9 20:23:28 can't reach it via / path 20:23:37 I believe google offers some support for humans.txt 20:23:52 for big silos we can track equivalent URL patterns - see https://code.google.com/p/google-sgnodemapper/ for an earlier effort at this: 20:24:05 eprodrom: I think this is again for individuals and those using 3-rd party services follow your nose makes a lot of sense 20:24:06 PROPOSAL: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider 20:24:10 +1 20:24:12 +1 20:24:13 +1 20:24:13 +1 20:24:14 +1 20:24:14 +1 20:24:16 +1 20:24:25 +1 20:24:38 +1 20:24:39 +1 20:24:40 Arnaud: do we have any candidates which don't do this? 20:24:49 eprodrom: we have one i think 20:24:55 +1 20:25:20 tantek: webfinger also breaks this, if you're depending on webfinger you're breaking follow your nose 20:25:26 .well-known 20:25:26 I'm only abstaining in favor of "real" geeks' opinions 20:25:41 +1 20:25:45 sorry i got kicked offline 20:25:49 webfinger-- 20:25:51 webfinger has -2 karma 20:25:56 webfinger-- 20:25:57 tantek: based on that alone i refuse to put that on my site (webfinger) 20:25:58 tantek: this is why I refuse to implement webfinger 20:25:58 webfinger has -3 karma 20:26:01 AnnB: your a geek face it ;) 20:26:05 webfinger-- 20:26:07 webfinger has -4 karma 20:26:08 webfinger-- bye webfinger 20:26:10 webfinger has -5 karma 20:26:33 RESOLVED the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider 20:26:40 RESOLVED: the WG will prefer follow-your-nose architecture in the API candidates we consider 20:26:41 \o/ 20:26:46 Woop progress 20:27:22 eprodrom: okay we were going to discuss the question is cross mediatype interoperability 20:27:23 what is follow-your-nose? 20:27:36 KevinMarks: following links from one document to another ... 20:27:40 KevinMarks: using discovery to find an endpoint 20:27:51 sandro: as i look at the different candidates. mediatypes are different syntaxes 20:27:56 So if you want to find the list of friends of tantek.com 20:28:00 +q 20:28:08 q- 20:28:09 i don't think w3c would appreciate Loqi making wiki edits all day long 20:28:10 ... two of them are okay with JSON-LD... 20:28:25 tantek: microformats are also available via JSON 20:28:25 see also https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_syntax#Serialization 20:28:52 so XFN/FOAF style? 20:29:03 aaronpk: i'm pointing out parsing microformats and HTML results in a native data structure in your language 20:29:09 page above links to http://microformats.org/wiki/json 20:29:17 and http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats 20:29:27 JSON.parse() ~= mf2.parse() 20:29:35 KevinMarks: ...you fetch "http://tantek.com/", parse the HTML, and find the link with rel="friends" 20:29:50 KevinMarks: that's one of many patterns, yes 20:29:54 ... parsing a JSON string could also result a native datastructure in that language 20:29:55 KevinMarks: vs. having a fixed URL format, like "the list of friends is always at /friends" 20:30:02 Aaronpk made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83007&oldid=83005 20:30:03 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83008&oldid=83007 20:30:18 ... in JS you shouldn't evaluate JSON directly, you should parse it 20:30:22 FYI: http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing 20:30:31 timbl: does microformat produce dictionaries and arrys? 20:30:32 KevinMarks: http://tantek.com/friends http://aaronparecki.com/friends etc. 20:30:33 *arrays 20:30:38 so folow-your-node is code for "define some rel values" OK, got it 20:30:50 Yes 20:30:50 similar to parsing RDFa, JSON-LD or Turtle - you end up with the same graph 20:30:51 aaronpk: microformats can (?) 20:30:55 I say "Discovery" 20:31:12 KevinMarks, do you mean "follow-your-nose"? 20:31:14 aaronpk: you can't take any JSON string and convert it to microformats 20:31:19 tantek: it uses a subset of JSON 20:31:26 (as opposed to "follow-your-node"?) 20:31:38 aaronpk: it uses objects, arrays and strings. there is no integer as there is no integer in HTML 20:31:45 q? 20:32:13 sandro: to paraphrase: the answer to my question is people should just use a library to parse microfromats just like people use a library to parse JSON 20:32:24 i started tiny basics on mf json 2 mf json-ld script https://github.com/elf-pavlik/mf2jsonld 20:32:25 tantek: multiple parsing libraries exist 20:32:32 http://microformats.org/wiki/microformats2-parsing#rel_parse_examples 20:32:37 AnnB: it's a good typo 20:32:40 q? 20:32:43 aaronpk: the parser does not need to change when multiple vocabs are added/changes 20:32:46 aaronpk: microformats parsers are generic, fixed in 2009 20:32:46 ack cwebber2 20:32:52 Grrr 20:32:58 q+ to ask if there are also generic microformats serializers 20:33:13 q? 20:33:22 timbl has joined #social 20:33:24 cwebber2: i might be confused but if you're getting HTML and parsing the response that's one thing. 20:34:07 ... JSON is already nested, it's not one level deep - one of my cencerns is just having strings... it's useful to have the nesting 20:34:43 aaronpk: not all parsers support nesting 20:34:44 q+ to ask whether there is a common jsonld context which could be written or had been written to turn parsed microformat into RDF model. 20:35:03 ack cwebber 20:35:04 uris++ 20:35:06 uris has 1 karma 20:35:14 ... there is a well established existing stablished pattern for dealing with nesting but a better solution is to avoid nesting 20:35:17 timbl, i started a bit on conversion script https://github.com/elf-pavlik/mf2jsonld 20:35:25 ... you point to things rather than nesting the objects 20:35:31 q? 20:35:54 to get something as in http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats 20:36:13 +1 20:36:43 timbl: if in doubt sick a URL in it 20:36:44 ack sandro 20:36:44 sandro, you wanted to ask if there are also generic microformats serializers 20:36:55 s/sick/stick/ 20:37:02 Premature ack 20:37:04 Arnaud: there are people who would disagree with the requirement that everything has to be named 20:37:05 blank nodes are a controversy in RDF -- they allow nesting, reference without giving a URL to the thing being referred to 20:37:17 +q 20:37:41 timbl has joined #social 20:37:52 sandro: are there generic microformat serialisers as well? 20:37:55 q+ 20:38:02 aaronpk: no but there could be 20:38:11 tantek: it's a lossy conversion because HTML is richer than JSON 20:38:47 issue for RDFa serializer in JS https://github.com/zazukoians/rdf-ext/issues/10 20:38:49 sandro: do you know how much of JSON is... 20:38:54 ... you can't do numbers 20:38:58 similar issue as microformats html serializer 20:39:00 ack timbl 20:39:00 timbl, you wanted to ask whether there is a common jsonld context which could be written or had been written to turn parsed microformat into RDF model. 20:39:47 q? 20:39:56 sandro: can you write a generic JSON->microformats serializer? 20:40:13 aaronpk: yes, for the right subset of JSON, but I don't think anyone's done it. 20:40:23 timbl: i've found i'm moving stuff to behing typed. Tables and things will do more smart things if they're type aware like sorting 20:40:33 q+ 20:40:37 ... there are arguments for having things typed 20:40:51 ack cwebber 20:40:56 tantek: you need a microparser for datetime in microformats - though i think that's the only one 20:41:32 ... it's an interesting datatype which is used a lot 20:41:34 {"actor": {"image": {"@type": "Link", "href": "http://example.org/martin/image", "mediaType": "image/jpeg", "width": 250, "height": 250}}} 20:41:34 http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#example-3 20:41:45 cwebber2: i'm pasing into the chat an example of something in the AS spec 20:42:18 ... it's several nested layers deep. you might structor this different but this happens a lot in a lot of APIs, you can have an array but what about an associated array 20:42:33 aaronpk: you can do that with form-encode, it's just not part of the form-encoding spec 20:42:34 actor[image][width] = 250 20:42:37 cwebber2, we have discussion about it on public-linked-json list 20:42:40 let me find a link 20:42:44 eprodrom: you can do this (pasted in) 20:43:01 actor[image][width]=250&actor[image][height]=250 20:43:16 eprodrom: that's how you can do it in form-encoding 20:43:17 q? 20:43:48 tantek: the example you gave is something you might get form an AS output but as something you submit, a server can't trust those attributes 20:43:57 timbl has joined #social 20:44:00 cwebber2, re associative arrays in JSON-LD https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-linked-json/2014Dec/0005.html 20:44:04 ... what is the size and mimetype of the image 20:44:27 ... you just have a href to the image in microformats because the server has to verify that data 20:44:38 ... so it should figure it out itself 20:44:52 issue-14 20:44:52 issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- open 20:44:52 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14 20:44:53 cwebber2: sure but i just pulled something nested out out of the spec 20:45:10 q+ to say I think I could live with microformats & form-encoding, given what's been said here. I don't see a fatal technical problem with it. But I don't think it'll fly with developers (any more than turtle would). 20:45:25 eprodrom: we've been talking about this, it came up yesterday. We do have microformats conversions of all the examples in the AS 2.0 spec 20:45:41 eprodrom++ 20:45:44 eprodrom has 8 karma 20:45:53 ... is it possible/reasnable to define a machine translatable (?) to go between those 20:46:03 aaronpk: is it going to depend on the vocab 20:46:38 ... are we talking about the transformation of the data structure? 20:46:39 you can't have that in microformats http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#fig-an-object-that-is-both-a-place-and-a-gr-location 20:46:50 I'm still waiting for my fixes to examples 1-2 to be accepted: https://github.com/jasnell/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/pull/84 20:46:56 you could convert mf -> RDF but not the other way 20:47:01 so we don't have valid microformats examples for all examples in the spec 20:47:06 we are in the process of making them 20:47:14 eprodrom: we're talking about something like what for example a like activity might look like 20:47:52 tantek, can you have this one in mf? http://www.w3.org/TR/activitystreams-core/#fig-an-object-that-is-both-a-place-and-a-gr-location 20:48:16 behind serializations one also needs to map vocabs 20:48:16 tantek: I'm not sure if it is possible to generate good machine output automatically so i'm keeping track of the changes i'm making manually so someone can come along later can try and automate it 20:48:53 +1 ISSUE 20:48:54 elf-pavlik: yes 20:48:56 q? 20:48:57 eprodrom: so maybe we leave this as an issue? machine translation between microformats and AS 2.0? 20:49:09 except i don't know what Place vs gr:location means 20:49:09 eprodrom: we're 10 minutes to the hour 20:49:21 but the "type" property is always an array 20:49:23 tantek: what's your goal sandro 20:49:47 sandro: are we going to pull this off with one syntax and if not how painful will it be to support multiple formats 20:49:50 one can use microformats vocab with JSON-LD http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats 20:50:02 Tantekelik made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=83009&oldid=83008 20:50:26 we don't just have two syntaxes, we have json-ld, rdfa, turtle, rdf/xml 20:50:37 ... i think it's a nonstater with microformats. I think the web development community in general is addicted to JSON 20:50:51 q? 20:51:02 q- 20:51:18 does having more than one syntax increase the complexity enough to hinder adoption ? 20:51:31 tantek: there is a JSON output for microformat as that's what people are asking for and we can publish others in the future 20:51:32 RDFa++ 20:51:34 RDFa has 1 karma 20:52:11 sandro: it would be nice to have one syntax we publish on the web that everyone can read 20:52:15 action-34 20:52:15 action-34 -- Pavlik elf to add explaination to the spec about multiple serializations used in examples -- due 2015-02-10 -- PENDINGREVIEW 20:52:15 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/actions/34 20:52:29 how does a parser decide to parse something as rdfa or microformats? 20:52:30 cwebber2: part of the goal of this WG is to try and smooth this out - it's part of the reason i signed up 20:52:53 tantek: it's something that has been tried for years and i don't think this group will solve it 20:53:09 did we lose track of microformats vs micropub? 20:53:18 eprodrom: we have two proposals for a social API, possibly three: 20:53:23 seemed like we jumped between them 20:53:24 ... 1) is on linked data platform 20:53:36 ... 2) one is on AS 1.0 which is just JSON (not JSON-LD) 20:53:51 ... 3) micropub which is based on form-encoding and microformats 20:54:00 ... so the question has come up can we resolve those disparities 20:54:02 once form posting directly to json begins working, I think the form encoding method can go away 20:54:12 ... so we've logged it as an issue and the answer is still to come 20:54:22 issue: What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social API (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld) 20:54:22 Created ISSUE-25 - What syntax is (syntaxes are) to be used in the social api (eg microformats vs json-ld; form-encoding vs json-ld). Please complete additional details at . 20:55:03 tantek: the market is inventing their own, the dominant players can't agree. The problem is getting worse not better 20:55:16 http://www.w3.org/TR/json-ld/#microformats 20:55:21 ... twitter cards, facebooks is kind of like RDFa but not really 20:55:31 q? 20:55:31 q? 20:55:33 q- 20:55:39 facebook support JSON and turtle 20:55:44 -bret 20:55:47 eprodrom: can we take the last 5 or 10 minutes to wrap up 20:55:57 ... first of all we had a proposal to do a group dinner tonight 20:56:29 timbl has joined #social 20:56:38 group photo is posted! https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17 20:56:47 aaronpk++ 20:56:48 aaronpk has 747 karma 20:57:31 claps 20:58:16 bravo and thanks all 20:58:22 -bblfish 20:58:25 trackbot, end meeting 20:58:25 Zakim, list attendees 20:58:25 As of this point the attendees have been elf-pavlik, fjh, confroom, bblfish, bret 20:58:33 RRSAgent, please draft minutes 20:58:33 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-minutes.html trackbot 20:58:34 RRSAgent, bye 20:58:34 I see 3 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-actions.rdf : 20:58:34 ACTION: hhalpin to discuss with rigo travel budget to see if more funding can be found for a Paris event [1] 20:58:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-irc#T14-12-29 20:58:34 ACTION: Email re github issues [2] 20:58:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-irc#T14-45-41 20:58:34 ACTION: hhalpin to discuss re github [3] 20:58:34 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/18-social-irc#T14-45-51 20:58:42 Thsaks to all for participating, and especially the scribes!