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07:55:02 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-irc
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07:55:45 <phila> Meeting: SDW WG Face to Face, 11 March 2015
07:55:58 <phila> Chair: Kerry and Ed
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07:56:05 <phila> RRSAgent, make logs public
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08:02:07 <phila> agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/F2f_Barcelona
08:02:09 <Ioannis_Athanasiadis> Good day!
08:02:12 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Agenda: https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/F2f_Barcelona
08:02:42 <Ioannis_Athanasiadis> Seems that the GotoMeeting link for this morning is wrond.
08:02:50 <Marie-Francoise> Marie-Francoise has joined #sdw
08:02:58 <phila> Yes, Ed is looking into it
08:03:08 <Ioannis_Athanasiadis> Thx :)
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08:04:49 <phila> scribe: phila
08:04:57 <phila> Topic: Intros
08:05:06 <phila> kerry: Opens the meeting, runs through the agenda
08:05:09 <JeanB> JeanB has joined #sdw
08:05:21 <jtandy> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/F2f_Barcelona
08:05:25 <AZ> AZ has joined #sdw
08:05:29 <jtandy> scribenick: jtandy
08:05:34 <jtandy> scribe: Jeremy Tandy
08:05:42 <jtandy> agenda for today: http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/F2f_Barcelona
08:05:57 <Rachel> Rachel has joined #sdw
08:05:59 <jtandy> kerry: main job for today is to work through the use cases
08:06:06 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Working_Use_Cases Use Cases
08:06:25 <jtandy> ... we're going to organise those use cases and define the requirements
08:06:44 <jtandy> ... each use case will be set to the deliverables for the WG
08:07:00 <aharth> aharth has joined #sdw
08:07:00 <ManolisKoubarakis> ManolisKoubarakis has joined #sdw
08:07:02 <jtandy> ... we finish the meeting with lightning talks
08:07:19 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Trying to get the GoTo Meeting working. We hope to be with you soon
08:07:29 <Alejandro_and_Armin> Same problem with pin code
08:07:47 <jtandy> ... introducing the use case editors; Frans K and Alejandro_and_Armin
08:08:24 <Rachel> ditto, problem with access code
08:08:25 <jtandy> phila: does anyone object (in the room) to me taking a picture and tweeting it
08:08:30 <jtandy> (no objections)
08:08:48 <jtandy> kerry: THE MEETING IS OPENED!
08:09:06 <jtandy> [ed returns ... hopefully the goto meeting is fixed?]
08:09:28 <jtandy> kerry: Welcome ... I'm Kerry, co-chair, work for CSIRO in Canberra
08:09:54 <jtandy> ... introducing Ed Parsons, fellow co-chair, works for Google in London
08:10:34 <jtandy> ... lots of people here - some new faces
08:10:44 <Alejandro_and_Armin> the go to meeting access code is invalid
08:10:45 <jtandy> ... lets do some other introductions
08:10:58 <Alejandro_and_Armin> 353923093
08:11:59 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #sdw
08:12:13 <jtandy> [going around the room here ... suggesting that if people want to say who they are - type into the IRC]
08:12:47 <jtandy> ... W3C staff is phila; OGC staff is IngoSimonis
08:13:00 <Dimitri> Dimitri has joined #sdw
08:13:02 <phila> phila: Notes there are 36 people in the room, only 20 on IRC, not all of whom are in the room. We need to fix this
08:13:31 <stlemme> stlemme has joined #sdw
08:14:12 <eparsons> eparsons has joined #sdw
08:14:12 <jtandy> kerry: thanks - now we've got to get to work
08:14:42 <Paulvg> Paulvg has joined #Sdw
08:14:42 <jtandy> phila: if you're not on IRC, you're not on the meeting ... please join [of course if you're not on - you can't read this!]
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08:15:26 <jtandy> eparsons: goto meeting is now working
08:15:29 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #sdw
08:15:32 <Sylvain_Grellet_BRGM> Sylvain_Grellet_BRGM has joined #sdw
08:15:39 <jtandy> kerry: will now introduce the use case chairs
08:15:42 <phila> zakim, this is SDWWG
08:15:42 <Zakim> sorry, phila, I do not see a conference named 'SDWWG' in progress or scheduled at this time
08:15:45 <Saud> Saud has joined #sdw
08:15:49 <jtandy> ... Frans (sitting in the corner)
08:15:58 <phila> zakim, room for 2?
08:15:59 <Zakim> ok, phila; conference Team_(sdw)08:15Z scheduled with code 73994 (SDWWG) for 60 minutes until 0915Z
08:16:00 <jtandy> ... Alejandro_and_Armin (somewhere in the ether)
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08:16:10 <phila> zakim, list participants
08:16:11 <Zakim> sorry, phila, I don't know what conference this is
08:16:19 <eparsons> Anyone having trouble with Goto Meeting ?
08:16:19 <phila> zakim, this is sdw
08:16:19 <Zakim> phila, I see Team_(sdw)08:15Z in the schedule but not yet started.  Perhaps you mean "this will be sdw".
08:16:27 <phila> zakim, this will be sdw
08:16:27 <Zakim> ok, phila; I see Team_(sdw)08:15Z scheduled to start now
08:16:31 <phila> zakim, list participants
08:16:31 <Zakim> sorry, phila, I don't know what conference this is
08:16:33 <AZ> Still the same "access code not valid" message
08:16:42 <phila> zakim, you are being awkward
08:16:42 <Zakim> I don't understand 'you are being awkward', phila
08:16:48 <jtandy> kerry: the main job for today is to organise the use cases into groups / categories & define the requirements from those use cases
08:16:55 <jtandy> ... let's kick off
08:17:01 <phila> phila has changed the topic to: Trying to get the GoTo Meeting working. Ed is working on it
08:17:09 <Alejandro_and_Armin> same problem that AZ with gotomeeting via skype
08:17:17 <jtandy> ... we're going to split into subgroups at some point this morning ...
08:17:21 <Payam> Payam has joined #sdw
08:17:47 <eparsons> Use this gotomeeting id https://www4.gotomeeting.com/join/182870253
08:17:52 <AZ> BTW, AZ is Antoine Zimmermann
08:18:13 <jtandy> kerry: we have a few ways to organise ... by deliverable (that would make 4 groups)
08:18:23 <jtandy> ... alternative to organise by theme
08:18:27 <lucvanlinden> lucvanlinden has joined #sdw
08:18:33 <jtandy> ... any ideas?
08:19:17 <KymW> KymW has joined #sdw
08:19:23 <jtandy> [discussion - where are we going to put the subgroups]
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08:19:37 <jtandy> q?
08:19:38 <phila> present+ aharth, alejandro, Armin, AZ, BBlaabjergBisgaard, Carl_Reed, ChrisLittle, Dimitri, eparsons, Erik_Guldberg, Ian_Holt, IngoSimonis, JeanB, Jeff_Walter, JohnHerring, jtandy, kerry, Kyoungsook_Kim, Linda, lucvanlinden, ManolisKoubarakis, Paulvg, Payam, phila, Rachel, Saud, stlemme, Sylvain_Grellet_BRGM, TedHabermann, tom_ellett, voges, xavier
08:19:42 <kerry> q?
08:19:49 <Alejandro_and_Armin> ok, we are connected!
08:20:05 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:20:05 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-minutes.html phila
08:20:08 <Leif> Leif has joined #sdw
08:20:14 <Alejandro_and_Armin> thanks, Ed!
08:20:15 <phila> present+ Leif
08:20:19 <jtandy> kerry: we could split up by themes ... e.g. IoT, Earth observation,
08:20:30 <jtandy> ... socially construed notions of place
08:20:39 <jtandy> ... discovery catalogue type use cases
08:20:45 <phila> present+ Jb_henry, KymW
08:20:56 <jtandy> ... probably easiest to organise by deliverables
08:21:31 <jtandy> Frans: could allow the sub-groups to self organise?
08:21:41 <jtandy> kerry: the deliverables are:
08:21:57 <jtandy> ... 1) (spatial) best practice
08:22:02 <jtandy> ... 2) Time
08:22:16 <jtandy> ... 3) SSN (semantic sensor network)
08:22:25 <Leif_> Leif_ has joined #sdw
08:22:25 <jtandy> ... 4) Coverage
08:22:39 <jtandy> [getting straw poll]
08:22:57 <raphael> raphael has joined #SDW
08:23:24 <jtandy> jtandy: let's merge SSN and Coverage groups
08:23:28 <jtandy> kerry: OK
08:23:47 <Frans> Frans has joined #sdw
08:24:10 <jtandy> chrislittle: not everyone voted
08:24:26 <jtandy> kerry: each sub-group will need to scribe
08:24:29 <phila> If you want to see what the IRC looks like as minutes, see http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-minutes.html
08:25:22 <jtandy> phila: you can scribe on paper ... you don't necessarily need to use IRC
08:25:49 <jtandy> s/paper/paper or electronic form/
08:26:04 <jtandy> phila: PLEASE DON'T USE A PROPRIETARY FORMAT
08:26:38 <jtandy> ... when you upload your notes
08:26:42 <lucvanlinden> lucvanlinden has left #sdw
08:26:51 <jtandy> [discussion - local logistics]
08:27:10 <jtandy> kerry: any questions before we break up
08:27:23 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:27:23 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-minutes.html phila
08:27:30 <jtandy> xavier: some of the UC's are very application specific
08:27:34 <phila> present+ Frans
08:27:36 <jtandy> ... some are technology centric
08:27:46 <jtandy> ... how should we proceed?
08:28:05 <phila> present+ TedHabermann
08:28:22 <jtandy> kerry: see the scope questions http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Scope_questions_and_Requirements
08:28:51 <jtandy> ... and the charter http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/charter
08:29:02 <jtandy> eparsons: the four scoping questions are:
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08:29:21 <jtandy> ... 1)  Is the use case specifically about Spatial data on the Web?
08:29:36 <jtandy> ... we had a lot of discussions about SPATIAL!
08:30:03 <Jeanne> Jeanne has joined #sdw
08:30:07 <jtandy> ... 2) is the use case including data published, reused, and accessible via Web technologies?
08:30:18 <jtandy> ... 3) Has a use case a description that can lead to a testable requirement?
08:30:19 <kerry> q?
08:30:30 <jtandy> ... 4) public vs private web
08:31:08 <jtandy> eparsons: all the requirements need to be hung on the use cases ... our requirements need to be grounded in reality
08:31:22 <phila> present+ raphael
08:32:14 <jtandy> peterbauman: please can we have W3C savvy folks in each group - because most of us are OGC folks?
08:32:35 <jtandy> kerry: don't think we need this ... most important thing is to SCRIBE
08:32:39 <jtandy> eparsons: ditto
08:33:13 <raphael> Present+ Raphael (remote)
08:33:20 <jtandy> kerry: work to get consensus ... but we're not operating a formal decision making process today; discuss, be inclusive
08:33:41 <jtandy> kerry: [notes the PATENT RULE statement]
08:34:00 <jtandy> ... talk to IngoSimonis if you've got concerns
08:34:06 <AndreaPerego> present+ AndreaPerego
08:34:24 <eparsons> Thanks AZ
08:34:34 <jtandy> phila: W3C and OGC have a slightly different method of dealing with IPR ...
08:34:34 <Gianluca_Luraschi> Gianluca_Luraschi has joined #sdw
08:34:57 <jtandy> ... but both horrible processes mean that the standards are royalty free
08:35:07 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Patent_Call The OGC Patent Call
08:35:19 <jtandy> phila: BTW - the standards will be joint badged
08:35:37 <jtandy> kerry: who's going to lead the groups
08:35:57 <jtandy> ... best practice ... eparsons
08:36:17 <jtandy> ... time ... stefanstrobel
08:36:35 <phila> present+ Stefan
08:36:55 <jtandy> ... SSN & Coverage ... [Kerry gets self nominated]
08:38:08 <jtandy> jtandy: when to reconvene back into plenary
08:38:58 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #sdw
08:39:34 <jtandy> kerry: let's get back to do sanity check / share discussions at 12:45 ... just before lunch
08:39:48 <phila> Present+ Christine Perey
08:40:05 <jtandy> cperey: I'll take an action to figure out if the big room will be ready
08:40:40 <jtandy> kerry: we'll meet in the big room at 12:45 (assuming all ok)
08:41:03 <jtandy> eparsons: at Google's great expense I've brought post-it notes ...
08:41:14 <jtandy> ... please don't write on the walls :-)
08:41:19 <phila> RRSAgent, draft minutes
08:41:19 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-minutes.html phila
08:41:36 <phila> Meeting breaks into sub groups
08:41:43 <phila> RRSAgent, pointer
08:41:43 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-irc#T08-41-43
08:41:45 <phila> RRSAgent, pointer?
08:41:45 <RRSAgent> See http://www.w3.org/2015/03/11-sdw-irc#T08-41-45
08:45:48 <AZ> tables and chairs moving around...
08:46:19 <eparsons> All, Goto Meeting shutting down now until presentations at 3pm CET
08:47:39 <stlemme_> stlemme_ has joined #sdw
08:48:36 <Alejandro_and_Armin> ok, is there a way to join the SSN group remotely?
08:50:10 <Alejandro_and_Armin> thanks!
08:50:14 <paulvg> paulvg has joined #sdw
08:50:36 <Alejandro_and_Armin> my skype id is ale21385
08:51:01 <phila> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/charter Charter
08:51:03 <AndreaPerego> AndreaPerego has joined #sdw
08:51:27 <Payam> Payam has joined #sdw
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08:54:25 <phila> scribe: phila
08:54:29 <phila> scribeNick: phila
08:54:54 <phila> jtandy: Suggests to triage the use acases and calssify them into those that are relevant to SSN and Coverage
08:55:24 <jtandy> s/acases/cases/
08:55:30 <phila> Much messing with equipment
08:55:38 <jtandy> s/calssify/classify/
08:56:55 <phila> Topic: SSN and Coverage deliverables
08:57:10 <phila> kerry: Introduces Alejandro_and_Armin who have joined via Skype
08:59:32 <phila> kerry: Talks through the charter
08:59:58 <phila> kerry: SSN was created in W3C space but isn't a formal standard.
09:00:01 <phila> ... widely used
09:00:29 <phila> ... being asked for help with encoding the data so that might be what this WG does (which will create a formal standard)
09:00:48 <phila> present+ Gianluca_Luraschi
09:00:59 <phila> present+ Ioannis_Athanasiadis
09:01:22 <phila> -> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/charter Charter
09:01:24 <jtandy> http://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/charter
09:01:58 <phila> kerry: Concept is coverage over space. Gridded data over space, how you might link to other data
09:02:14 <phila> ... WaterML is mentioned to be able to handle time at a specific point in space
09:02:26 <jtandy> s/WaterML/WaterML2/
09:02:28 <phila> ... RDF Data Cube http://www.w3.org/TR/vocab-data-cube/
09:03:01 <phila> PeterBauman: OGC already has well defined defn of coverage
09:03:32 <phila> ... distinction between discrete and continuous understood
09:03:45 <phila> ... consensus should be absed on existing defn of the word
09:03:51 <jtandy> (the charter says: "expressing discrete coverage data conformant to the ISO 19123 abstract model")
09:04:19 <phila> jtandy: Points to wording in charter to help clarify what is and isn't in scope
09:04:30 <phila> present+ Peter Baumann
09:04:39 <Rachel> s/absed/based/
09:05:43 <phila> jtandy: I suggest we look at the use cases we have.
09:05:55 <phila> PB: Distinction between the coverage and the services that operate on it
09:06:48 <phila> JohnHerring: Do you know the difference between discrete and continuous
09:06:55 <phila> ... all data is discrete at its core
09:07:09 <phila> ... continuous are intrpolated, discrete is not
09:07:42 <jtandy> s/intrpolated/interpolated/
09:07:43 <phila> PB: If you're working on an image then you do have pixels. Coverage describes both in a uniform way
09:08:01 <phila> kerry: My understanding is that we're working on discrete, not interpolating
09:08:46 <phila> PB: Gives an example where interpolation doesn't make sense
09:09:07 <phila> JohnHerring: There's no interpolation between and oak and a pine
09:09:43 <phila> jtandy: In a gridded daatset - in meteo, we represent each individual point as you need to know when to interpolate and when not to
09:10:24 <phila> PB: If it's the case that it can be interpolated then it can be seen as continuous but you won't necessarily provide the interpolation method
09:10:47 <phila> JohnHerring: We need to know what you're trying to do before we decide
09:10:55 <phila> kerry: Yes we need to look at the UCs!
09:10:56 <jtandy> (the interpolation in meteorology is really quite complicated - so if you're going to do interpolation, proceed with caution!)
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09:12:28 <phila> kerry: Hands the chair to Jeremy
09:12:32 <phila> chair: jtandy
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09:14:38 <phila> jtandy: We're trying to pull out the requirements from each UC. Please read through the first UC
09:14:44 <phila> ... starting with https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Working_Use_Cases#Meteorological_Data_Rescue_Use_Case_.28Best_Practice.2C_Time.2C_SSN.2C_Coverage.29
09:15:08 <phila> Jeremy hands out post-it notes to write the reqs on as we'll have the smae reqs multiple times
09:15:55 <phila> kerry: I can see multilingual search as a requirement
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09:18:13 <phila> Phila: this is now 'mdr' https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Working_Use_Cases#mdr
09:18:14 <Alejandro_and_Armin> are we using any google document or something similar?
09:18:42 <phila> Ted: Do we have a quality metric?
09:18:51 <phila> Discussion leads to some quality and prov reqs
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09:19:26 <phila> JohnHerring: If the data is tabular-numeric that may not be stats
09:19:30 <stefan> stefan has joined #sdw
09:19:34 <phila> ... we don't know what the data is
09:19:59 <phila> jtandy: These would be reports from a specific station. It's a time series
09:20:06 <phila> JohnHerring: One station or multiple stations
09:20:17 <phila> jtandy: Each station has its own time series
09:20:43 <phila> JohnHerring: So the user might have a consistent set across whichshe could interpolate
09:20:57 <phila> jtandy: It's a continuous phenomenon so if you know what you're doing you can interpolate
09:21:08 <phila> jtandy: And we normally use quite complicated models to do that
09:21:28 <Rachel> s/whichshe/which she/
09:21:53 <phila> jtandy: We have time series records for observations at a point
09:22:02 <phila> kerry: WaterML is relevant here then
09:22:42 <phila> s/PB:/pebau/
09:22:46 <stefan> #time The OGC TemporalDWG has already put together a list of useful links wrt time defenitions http://external.opengeospatial.org/twiki_public/TemporalDWG/WebHome#TemporalDWG_Web_Utilities
09:22:53 <phila> s/PeterBaumann/pebau/g
09:22:56 <phila> s/PB:/pebau/g
09:24:09 <phila> Further general discussion about the use case
09:24:16 <phila> jtandy: We need to know where the data is related to
09:24:23 <phila> pebau: Yes, it must be referenced in space and time
09:26:37 <phila> jtandy: Summarises the clusters - when and where
09:26:55 <phila> ... on the Web we need tro be able to find the info - so discvovery metadata
09:27:00 <phila> ... need to be able to cite it
09:27:03 <phila> ... its quality
09:27:09 <phila> ... handle multi-lingual
09:27:27 <phila> ... so in terms of coverage, we're looking at metadata of it
09:27:39 <Rachel> s/we need tro/we need to/
09:27:42 <phila> kerry: Need to be able to insert it in a catalogue
09:28:26 <Rachel> s/discvovery/discovery/
09:28:29 <phila> Sylvain_Grellet_BRGM: So she's processing the data?
09:28:38 <phila> kerry: No, she's just publishing what she finds
09:28:56 <Alejandro_and_Armin> +q on adding requirements to spreadsheet
09:29:33 <phila> -> https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Working_Use_Cases#hzv Next USe case
09:29:37 <phila> chair: kerry
09:29:43 <phila> jtandy: Summarises his use case
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09:29:50 <phila> ... based on coastal habitat zones
09:30:18 <phila> ack nex
09:30:23 <phila> ack next
09:30:24 <Zakim> Alejandro_and_Armin, you wanted to comment on adding requirements to spreadsheet
09:32:44 <phila> Looking at https://www.w3.org/2015/spatial/wiki/Working_Use_Cases#hzv
09:33:13 <phila> jtandy: We don't want to describe the zone itself, we need line of sight to the info that someone used to designate the protected zone
09:33:19 <phila> ... so it's really about provenance
09:33:31 <phila> ... we have a bunch of complex data that may be used
09:33:42 <phila> ... side scan sonar can be many GB
09:33:58 <phila> ... Cameras towed behind a boat to show the different plants and fish etc
09:34:09 <phila> ... person will record what type of fish is seen where
09:34:20 <phila> JohnHerring: So we're talking about GeoReferecned video
09:34:30 <phila> JohnHerring: Frame by frame georef
09:34:56 <phila> present+ David_Burggraf
09:35:14 <phila> present+ Marie-Francoise
09:35:18 <Rachel> s/GeoReferecned/GeoReferenced/
09:35:27 <phila> present+ laurent-oz
09:35:50 <phila> jtandy: So all the metadata is in the observation model. Where and when the pic was taken
09:36:30 <phila> jtandy: The interesting thing for me is, a link to a big side scan sonar dataset - that's too much
09:36:37 <phila> ... we need to access a small part of the data
09:37:10 <phila> jtandy: Politicians need to know whetehr the fish was seen in or outside the zone
09:37:17 <phila> ... but activists will want more detail
09:37:33 <phila> ... so we need a provenace record like "I used this chunk"
09:38:06 <phila> Ted: Is that a subsetting requirement?
09:38:28 <phila> ... If I understand the charter correctly - this coverage data is really big so we need ways to share smaller pieces of it
09:38:33 <Alejandro_and_Armin> s/provenace/provenance
09:38:52 <phila> Ted: That's a server side requirement?
09:38:59 <phila> jtandy: I was thinking about the citation angle
09:39:09 <phila> ... they may have had the whole thing
09:39:26 <Rachel> s/whetehr/whether/
09:39:42 <phila> Jeff_Walter: You need to be able to express that you used array indices 60-80
09:39:45 <phila> ... for example
09:39:52 <O_Morel> O_Morel has joined #sdw
09:39:57 <phila> pebau: We have subsetting in coverage
09:40:08 <phila> present+ O_Morel
09:40:33 <phila> Discussion focuses on referencing part of a coverage
09:40:51 <stefan> #time agreed on the necessity to define a harmonized OWL model for time and test it with the provided use cases
09:40:56 <phila> jtandy: And you, pebau, said you wanted to be able to describe it such that someone else can execute that in future
09:41:19 <phila> q+ to talk about Data Cube and DCAT
09:41:43 <phila> jtandy: I'm going to suggest we break for coffee?
09:41:50 <phila> christine: No, 10 mins to go yet
09:42:21 <phila> jtandy: There are things in this UC related to BPs and time but we're not looking at those here
09:42:30 <phila> JohnHerring: You need to be careful when you say georeference
09:42:47 <phila> ... every observation has its own location associated with it
09:42:53 <phila> q-
09:43:15 <phila> pebau: raises the issue of CRSs
09:43:25 <phila> Sylvain_Grellet_BRGM: raises identifiers
09:43:42 <phila> jtandy: We said in the previous UC that we needed to be able to cite