15:00:15 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #touchevents
15:00:16 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-touchevents-irc
15:00:22 <rbyers> zakim, this will be RWC_PEWG
15:00:22 <Zakim> ok, rbyers, I see RWC_PEWG()11:00AM already started
15:00:28 <rbyers> Meeting: Touch Events Community Group
15:01:00 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
15:01:01 <Zakim> +Scott_Gonzalez
15:01:22 <Zakim> + +1.519.725.aabb
15:01:28 <rbyers> Zakim, aabb is me
15:01:28 <Zakim> +rbyers; got it
15:02:24 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
15:03:01 <teddin> teddin has joined #touchevents
15:03:05 <rbyers> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Mar/0008.html
15:04:01 <jrossi2> jrossi2 has joined #touchevents
15:04:13 <Zakim> + +1.519.513.aacc
15:04:15 <jrossi2> oops I was in the wrong room
15:04:56 <tdresser> Zakim, aacc is Chrome Team
15:04:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'aacc is Chrome Team', tdresser
15:05:04 <rbyers> Present: Asir, Jacob, Rick, Scott, Tim, Mustaq
15:05:13 <tdresser> Zakim, aacc is Chrome_Team
15:05:13 <Zakim> +Chrome_Team; got it
15:05:23 <rbyers> Scribe: Tim_Dresser
15:05:29 <rbyers> ScribeNick: tdresser
15:06:07 <teddin> Ted is here - having audio issues right now.
15:06:13 <rbyers> Present+: Ted
15:07:09 <rbyers> Topic: mouseenter/mouseleave issues
15:07:10 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Mar/0006.html
15:07:33 <tdresser> rbyers: I asked some more detailed questions to Jacob last week on the list, have you had a chance to read over this?
15:07:51 <tdresser> rbyers: High level, we should discuss what it means for IE to support the webkit style mouse event model.
15:08:26 <tdresser> jrossi: We defer the mouse events that happen normally, until after touchend.
15:08:59 <tdresser> jrossi: We have a bug currently that the default actions aren't wired up completely correctly.
15:09:08 <tdresser> jrossi: We'll have a build out soon with this behind a flag.
15:09:50 <tdresser> jrossi: We may also need to alter the behavior of hover.
15:10:00 <tdresser> rbyers: Are you currently setting hover when you fire mouseenter?
15:10:09 <tdresser> jrossi: No, we broke the connection between hover and enter and leave.
15:10:49 <tdresser> jrossi: Hover happens at the regular time (at pointer-enter and pointer-leave), but we defer the mouse events.
15:11:17 <tdresser> rbyers: That makes sense. The pointer events are the primary API, and the mouse events are there for legacy.
15:11:45 <tdresser> jrossi: The interop of hover and mouse events for touch is super broken anyways, so I don't think it's important that the connection between mouse events and hover is very valuable.
15:12:15 <tdresser> rbyers: That sounds good.
15:12:44 <tdresser> jrossi: The next step for me is to answer rbyers' questions from the thread after talking it over with other Microsoft folks.
15:13:17 <tdresser> rbyers: We could spend some time talking about ? either here or at the CSS working group.
15:14:00 <tdresser> s/?/:active and :hover semantics for touch
15:14:41 <tdresser> mustaq: I was comparing Firefox and Chrome, and our hover and active behavior for tap appears the same.
15:14:58 <tdresser> mustaq: They are sending enter and leave, but in terms of hover and active, they behave the same.
15:15:16 <tdresser> rbyers: We should make sure we have a Firefox person around when we discuss this.
15:15:54 <tdresser> rbyers: The other issue is finding examples of sites that are broken. jrossi, can you send us the list of sites that break if you send enter/leave on tap?
15:16:10 <tdresser> jrossi: We don't have much of a list, Netflix was broken, but it's fixed now.
15:16:25 <tdresser> jrossi: There is sample code up on StackOverflow.
15:16:51 <tdresser> rbyers: Good - so this issue doesn't show up anywhere on Netflix anymore?
15:16:54 <tdresser> jrossi: Correct.
15:17:02 <tdresser> rbyers: Our next step is to land it, and see what we break.
15:17:12 <rbyers> Topic: Identifying mouse events derived from touch
15:17:35 <rbyers> I sent <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-dom/2015JanMar/0102.html>
15:17:35 <rbyers> my InputDevice design sketch <https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1WLadG2dn4vlCewOmUtUEoRsThiptC7Ox28CRmYUn8Uw/edit#>
15:17:35 <rbyers> to www-dom today.
15:18:07 <tdresser> rbyers: Any thoughts?
15:18:14 <tdresser> jrossi: I like it, at least as a starting point.
15:18:29 <tdresser> rbyers: We should justify every property carefully, but establishing a pattern feels correct.
15:18:46 <tdresser> jrossi: We tried to go down this road with pointer events, but we didn't have enough experience at that point.
15:19:20 <tdresser> jrossi: There was a discussion about this at one point on the pointer events list. In the first version of pointer events, we used a numeric enum, which was bad for extensibility.
15:19:28 <tdresser> jrossi: If we just use strings, we can avoid that problem.
15:20:05 <tdresser> jrossi: We might want to have a registry somewhere that isn't part of the spec, that's easily updateable.
15:20:18 <tdresser> jrossi: I'd put Kinect in the list, maybe HoloLens.
15:20:32 <tdresser> rbyers: We could just have a page on the pointer events wiki.
15:20:53 <tdresser> jrossi: I think there should be a set of obvious ones in the spec, and then point to a wiki for the less standard ones.
15:21:01 <tdresser> rbyers: And over time we could move more things into the spec.
15:21:30 <tdresser> jrossi: Can you enumerate the list of available values for a string enum?
15:21:39 <tdresser> rbyers: I don't think so.
15:22:20 <tdresser> rbyers: If you try to pass a string that isn't valid, it throws an exception.
15:23:21 <tdresser> rbyers: If we want to allow javascript to add input types, we should use a string over a string enum.
15:23:47 <tdresser> rbyers: In my current proposal, you can't create new input devices.
15:24:25 <tdresser> jrossi: Could you just pass in an object that looks like an InputDevice into the constructor?
15:24:41 <tdresser> rbyers: In WebIDL, I don't think so.
15:24:56 <tdresser> rbyers: The constructor for UIEvent would by default leave the InputDevice null.
15:25:13 <tdresser> rbyers: We might want a way for script to be able to create a new InputDevice.
15:25:24 <tdresser> rbyers: I'll add a section to my doc calling out each of these issues.
15:25:46 <tdresser> rbyers: We could tackle parts of this without adding a constructor.
15:25:56 <tdresser> jrossi: I think we should add a constructor from the beginning.
15:26:11 <tdresser> rbyers: Ok, I'll allow passing an InputDevice to the UIEvent constructor, and allow constructing an InputDevice.
15:26:27 <tdresser> rbyers: Once we have that, we can think about custom device classes.
15:26:58 <tdresser> rbyers: What about pointer granularity? Should that be extensible? Should you be able to define a new granularity other than fine or coarse?
15:27:36 <tdresser> jrossi: This becomes more of a general question. Couldn't the constructor just take strings for these properties?
15:28:00 <tdresser> rbyers: This eliminates opportunities for binding languages other than javascript.
15:28:11 <tdresser> rbyers: It could hurt things like typescript.
15:28:40 <tdresser> rbyers: The choices are clear. You can define an enum with the standard values. Then your api can take and return an instance of that enum, or it can take a DOM string.
15:28:51 <tdresser> jrossi: That makes sense.
15:29:08 <tdresser> rbyers: I'll focus on the www-dom thread, and try to get some consensus there.
15:29:08 <rbyers> Topic: AOB
15:32:59 <tdresser> rbyers: Should we make hover/active the focus of our next call?
15:33:15 <tdresser> jrossi: I'll have to do some digging before I can have a productive conversation about that.
15:33:23 <tdresser> rbyers: We'll say that's blocked on you then.
15:33:27 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
15:33:29 <Zakim> -rbyers
15:33:31 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
15:33:33 <Zakim> -Chrome_Team
15:33:38 <Zakim> -Scott_Gonzalez
15:34:06 <Zakim> - +1.571.426.aaaa
15:34:08 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
15:34:08 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.571.426.aaaa, [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, +1.519.725.aabb, rbyers, +1.519.513.aacc, Chrome_Team
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15:34:55 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make log Public
15:35:04 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:35:04 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
15:46:25 <rbyers> Regrets: Patrick
15:46:29 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:46:29 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
15:47:18 <rbyers> Chair: rbyers
15:47:45 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
15:47:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/10-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
15:54:26 <mbrubeck> Sorry I missed the meeting. :(
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