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20:29:39 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:29:39 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see GA_SVGWG()3:30PM already started
20:29:40 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:29:40 <trackbot> Date: 05 March 2015
20:30:22 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:26 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg
20:30:34 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:30:34 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:30:54 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:57 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:30:57 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:30:59 <ed> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0009.html
20:31:18 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:31:18 <Zakim> On the phone I see Thomas_Smailus, krit, ed, heycam
20:31:41 <ed> Chair: ed
20:31:45 <Zakim> +??P6
20:31:57 <AmeliaBR> zakim, ??P6 is me
20:31:57 <Zakim> +AmeliaBR; got it
20:32:24 <heycam> Scribe: Cameron
20:32:26 <heycam> ScribeNick: heycam
20:32:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
20:32:48 <BogdanBrinza> BogdanBrinza has joined #svg
20:33:16 <Zakim> +??P8
20:33:27 <stakagi> zakim, ??P8 is me
20:33:27 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:33:40 <heycam> Topic: computed value for <length>
20:33:42 <ed> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Mar/0005.html
20:34:03 <heycam> ed: I was reviewing the spec, and I found that we have some properties that use <length> grammar from CSS
20:34:15 <heycam> ... and in our spec we say what the computed value is
20:34:23 <heycam> ... for some of our properties we don't say "absolute <length>" for the computed value
20:34:38 <heycam> ... I propose we align with the rest of CSS and have <length> computed values be absolute
20:34:43 <Zakim> +??P9
20:34:54 <heycam> AmeliaBR: so the effect would be if you do getCS you would get the px value equivalent, rather than a percentage etc.?
20:34:56 <heycam> ed: yes
20:35:08 <Tav> zakim, ??P9 is me
20:35:08 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
20:35:12 <heycam> ed: well percentage is special, but other units yes you would get px back
20:35:20 <heycam> AmeliaBR: as you say, it's what CSS does
20:35:33 <heycam> krit: percentage would still be a percentage in the computed value
20:35:46 <heycam> ed: if no one objects to that, I'd be happy to udpate the spec
20:35:59 <heycam> (no objection)
20:36:22 <heycam> RESOLUTION: Properties defined in SVG will have <length> values compute down to absolute px values.
20:36:35 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to make properties with <length>s compute down to absolute px values.
20:36:35 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3763 - Update svg 2 to make properties with <length>s compute down to absolute px values. [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
20:36:51 <heycam> ed: we sometimes define the parsing as <length> | <percentage> | <number>
20:36:56 <heycam> ... but most numbers use <length> | <percentage>
20:37:13 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I think there's text that says "a bare number is a length with an implicit unit"
20:37:50 <AmeliaBR> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#InterfaceSVGLength
20:38:30 <AmeliaBR> correction: https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/types.html#syntax
20:38:42 <AmeliaBR> Quote: "The insertion of the <number> symbols allows for unitless length and angles to be used in presentation attribute while disallowing them in corresponding property values."
20:39:35 <Zakim> +??P0
20:39:46 <AmeliaBR> q+
20:40:27 <nikos> Zakim, ??P0 is me
20:40:27 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:40:44 <heycam> heycam: what I tried to do was make presentation attributes accept numbers implicitly (because properties defined in CSS specs don't include number explicitly)
20:40:54 <heycam> ... for properties defined in SVG, though, they include number explicitly
20:41:02 <heycam> krit: I don't think we need wording here for presentation attributes
20:41:10 <heycam> ... because CSS defines that presentation attributes allow unit-less numbers
20:41:16 <heycam> heycam: can you please give me a link to that text
20:41:39 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron Talk to Tab about implicit number units in properties
20:41:39 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3764 - Talk to tab about implicit number units in properties [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-03-12].
20:41:56 <ed> Zakim, ack
20:41:56 <Zakim> I don't understand 'ack', ed
20:42:02 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I wanted to clarify the wording you've got there: "unitless numbers can only be allowed in presentation attributes"
20:42:10 <heycam> ... whereas currently we allow unitless numbers in SVG-specific style properties
20:42:12 <heycam> ... like stroke-width
20:42:17 <heycam> ... even if you're declaring that in a style sheet
20:42:21 <heycam> ... would we be disallowing that?
20:42:28 <heycam> krit: for these properties, they need to specify <number> as well
20:42:40 <heycam> ... stroke-dasharray, stroke-width, etc.
20:42:56 <heycam> heycam: I did intend to put <number> explicitly in stroke-width etc.
20:43:38 <heycam> krit: I don't think we want to have numbers on the geometry properties
20:43:48 <heycam> ... every new property should follow the general CSS way of defining properties
20:45:46 <heycam> ... stroke-width, stroke-dasharray, stroke-dashoffset and baseline-shift are the ones WebKit supports
20:46:07 <heycam> ... so for cx, cy, etc. we don't have the quirks mode enabled and so numbers aren't accepted
20:46:32 <heycam> ed: for the geometry ones I haven't allowed numbers there either
20:46:59 <heycam> AmeliaBR: do we want to add a note to encourage authors to always put explicit units?
20:47:01 <ed> s/there either/in blink either/
20:47:31 <heycam> heycam: yes I think that'd be good
20:47:50 <heycam> krit: I think Tab suggested using quirks mode for these properties to get the numbers
20:47:56 <heycam> ... but adding <number> explicitly is fine as well
20:48:09 <heycam> krit: I agree about adding a note
20:48:38 <heycam> ACTION: Add a note about avoiding unitless values
20:48:38 <trackbot> Error finding 'Add'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/track/users>.
20:48:45 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron Add a note about avoiding unitless values
20:48:46 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3765 - Add a note about avoiding unitless values [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-03-12].
20:49:59 <heycam> AmeliaBR: so all existing presentation attributes accept number as an alternative to length
20:50:18 <heycam> heycam: hypothetical question: if we introduced a new SVG property that wasn't previously an attribute, would we accept a number in the presentation attribute?
20:50:23 <heycam> krit: I'd say yes
20:50:27 <heycam> AmeliaBR: yes, good for consistency
20:50:49 <heycam> ed: the remaining question in my email was regarding how units are supposed to be handled when you serialize or interpolate values while animating
20:50:55 <heycam> ... and I found that implementations differ
20:51:01 <heycam> ... was wondering if this was defined in CSS
20:51:13 <heycam> ... so getCS and CSS Animations
20:51:40 <heycam> ... what happens if you animate from 2em to 10ex for example?
20:51:45 <heycam> ... what happens to the values in between?
20:51:51 <heycam> krit: I think there is no definition in CSS yet for this
20:52:12 <heycam> ed: was just wondering if it's defined somewhere
20:52:40 <heycam> heycam: shouldn't this be defined in Transitions/Animations?
20:52:48 <AmeliaBR> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-transitions/#animatable-types
20:52:48 <heycam> krit: maybe should be, but isn't
20:53:12 <heycam> "when both values are lengths, interpolated as lengths" ...
20:54:17 <heycam> AmeliaBR: to go between 10px and 100%, you go beteween calc(10px + 0%) and calc(0px + 100%)
20:54:59 <Zakim> -nikos
20:55:07 <heycam> heycam: oh, I forgot transitions/animations work between computed values
20:55:11 <heycam> ... so you'll have two px values
20:55:17 <heycam> Topic: SVG 2 Chapter Assessment
20:55:22 <heycam> https://www.w3.org/Graphics/SVG/WG/wiki/SVG2_Chapter_Assessment
20:55:28 <Zakim> +??P0
20:55:37 <heycam> heycam: I only got 2 of my 3 chapters done
20:56:04 <heycam> ed: since we started at the top last time, let's start at the bottom this time
20:56:39 <heycam> ... next available person, Text?
20:57:17 <heycam> Topic: Text Issue 3 - semantics of foreignObject
20:57:27 <heycam> Tav: there was an issue in the spec asking to define the semantics of foreignObject
20:57:51 <heycam> ... I'm not sure we even have to talk about foreignObject here at all
20:58:11 <heycam> just before https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextLayoutContentArea
20:58:37 <heycam> "If more complex layout is required (bulleted lists, tables, etc.), text can be rendered in another XML namespace such as XHTML [XHTML] embedded inline within a ‘foreignObject’ element. (Note: the exact semantics of this approach are not completely defined at this time.) "
20:59:25 <heycam> heycam: how about just turn that paragraph into a note and point to the foreignObject chapter for more complex text layout support
20:59:30 <heycam> Tav: ok, sounds good
20:59:38 <heycam> Topic: Issue 13, 15: Allow 'shape-inside', 'shape-outside' to reference an image
20:59:48 <heycam> Tav: in the Shapes spec, these can link to images
20:59:48 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#TextShapeInside
21:00:06 <heycam> ... so you reference an image and a threshold, it's defining a shape using an image
21:00:17 <heycam> heycam: what is the issue? is that allowed?
21:00:23 <heycam> AmeliaBR: it is supported in a number of browsers in HTML
21:00:26 <heycam> Tav: so we should just allow it
21:01:06 <heycam> heycam: in terms of restrictions on external images, etc., that should be in Integration
21:01:08 <heycam> Tav: ok
21:01:24 <heycam> Topic: Issue 35: Does shape-padding effect text laid out using 'extent'
21:01:50 <heycam> Tav: so where define an are to put text in (using 'extent') do we allow shape-padding to affect that?
21:01:52 <heycam> ... my feeling is no
21:02:19 <heycam> AmeliaBR: if you want to lay out text in a padding rectangle, you can create a rectangular shape and use shape-padding on it
21:02:42 <heycam> heycam: ok, that makes sense then
21:04:15 <heycam> Topic: Issue 54, 55, 56, 57 - should shadownodes ever be returned in getIntersectionList/getEnclosureList/checkIntersection/checkEnclosure?
21:04:39 <heycam> ed: so say you have a rectangle, and you want all elements that are within the rectangle
21:04:55 <heycam> ... if you had a <use> in there, would you expect the elements referenced by the <use> to be returned, or just the <use> itself?
21:05:04 <heycam> ... I think my initial feeling is that it should just return the <use> element
21:05:10 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I would say so too
21:05:33 <heycam> ... that avoids some issues; if you're talking about individual nodes, or part of the <use> is fully enclosed but not the entire thing
21:05:39 <heycam> ... maybe long term we could have an extra parameter
21:05:48 <heycam> ... but by default, we should just return entire elements in the main DOM
21:05:55 <heycam> heycam: I think that makes sense
21:06:20 <heycam> ed: I haven't done any testing, though I would be surprised if an implementation returned shadow nodes
21:06:31 <heycam> AmeliaBR: last I checked, these methods aren't implemented in firefox
21:07:09 <heycam> RESOLUTION: getIntersectionList and friends can return a <use> but not the elements it references
21:07:27 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to make getIntersectionList and friend return a <use> but not the elements it references
21:07:28 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3766 - Make getintersectionlist and friend return a <use> but not the elements it references [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
21:07:50 <heycam> Topic: Issue 49 and 50 - issues belong in geometry or styling chapters (should be defined once for all presentation attributes)
21:08:01 <heycam> ed: what does SVGAnimatedLength return for the attributes we made properties
21:08:09 <heycam> ... I think this is a general issue
21:08:14 <heycam> ... should probably address this in the styling
21:08:40 <heycam> heycam: I have an issue to do that in the Types chapter
21:08:42 <heycam> ed: so I can remove mine?
21:08:44 <heycam> heycam: yes that's fine
21:08:51 <heycam> Topic: Issue 48 - we need to reference HTML.next for this, can we do that? html5 REC doesn't have this
21:09:08 <heycam> ed: there was some definition for the title and activeElement on SVGSVGElement
21:09:22 <heycam> ... which are defined in HTML.next but not HTML5 (W3C versions)
21:09:35 <heycam> heycam: I guess we have to then
21:09:39 <heycam> ed: ok
21:09:50 <heycam> ... there is a W3C WD version has these; I'll check
21:10:03 <heycam> Topic: Issue 39 and 40 - types chapter removed the list-of-t definition, use HTML's set of space-separated tokens definition instead?
21:10:17 <heycam> ed: i want to use this HTML definition
21:10:25 <heycam> ... e.g. for requiredFeatures
21:10:30 <heycam> ... it's a simple string-like attributes
21:10:53 <Zakim> -??P0
21:10:58 <heycam> heycam: I was going to use that algorithm to use this algorithm for the class attribute
21:11:24 <Zakim> +??P0
21:11:34 <heycam> ... so I was going to add another case in the attribute parsing section
21:12:05 <heycam> Topic: Issue 34 - wasn't entirely clear from f2f minutes, should scripts in external <use> documents run?
21:12:13 <heycam> ed: wasn't clear from the minutes that scripts run in external documents
21:12:36 <heycam> ... if the <script> is outside the subtree you're referencing
21:12:49 <heycam> AmeliaBR: if it's outside, I wouldn't expect it to run
21:13:13 <heycam> heycam: I can't recall the discussions we had on this, but I think not running the script is good
21:13:26 <heycam> AmeliaBR: right now we have an option to use a whole external file; we should be clear what happens with script
21:14:11 <heycam> heycam: so what about not running script in the resource document, and also not in the cloned shadow tree?
21:14:17 <heycam> ed: I think this could use some testing too
21:14:20 <heycam> ... so I will probably do taht
21:14:28 <heycam> ... but trying to restrict scripting would be good
21:14:37 <heycam> AmeliaBR: was a decision made about <use> referencing a <foreignObject>?
21:14:47 <heycam> ... some browsers copy the <foreignObject> content, some don't
21:14:52 <heycam> ed: I don't think we've discussed that issue
21:15:06 <heycam> AmeliaBR: you're only supposed to reference graphics content, but you can have a <foreignObject> in a <g>
21:15:21 <heycam> ... so what happens if you have other, non-graphical content within a <g>
21:16:12 <heycam> BogdanBrinza: for IE, it gets cloned and rendered like a regular <use> element
21:16:19 <heycam> ... there's no special behaviour for foreignObject
21:16:32 <heycam> ... (though we don't have public builds for that yet)
21:16:45 <heycam> AmeliaBR: do you know whether the copy is an interactive copy? or just an image of the original object?
21:16:51 <heycam> ... e.g. if it has form controls?
21:16:57 <heycam> BogdanBrinza: I am not sure... but I can try it, good question
21:17:01 <heycam> ... if it's cloned it should be interactive
21:17:33 <heycam> ed: would appreciate some help with testing this
21:17:48 <heycam> BogdanBrinza: I can help with Windows/OSX testing
21:18:03 <heycam> ed: mostly asking for help with writing tests
21:18:06 <heycam> BogdanBrinza: I can help with that too
21:18:12 <heycam> ... we do have some tests you can reuse
21:18:29 <heycam> ACTION: Bogdan to help Erik test unusual elements inside <use>d subtrees
21:18:29 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3767 - Help erik test unusual elements inside <use>d subtrees [on Bogdan Brinza - due 2015-03-12].
21:19:15 <heycam> Topic: Issue 32 - drop the offending paragraph? Still add example?
21:19:18 <heycam> ed: this is about the <use> element
21:19:29 <heycam> ... there's a paragraph that talks about visibility
21:19:33 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/struct.html#UseElement
21:19:35 <heycam> ... and how visibility:hidden does something particular
21:19:41 <heycam> ... not sure it's necessary to have this paragraph
21:19:47 <heycam> ... the issue asks why visibility is called out specially
21:19:55 <heycam> ... and that it might be better to have an example to show what it's trying to describe
21:20:00 <heycam> ... not sure what the example would be like, thouhg
21:20:06 <heycam> ... I'd be happy just dropping that para
21:20:19 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I think it's an interesting example, but definitely should be an informative note or example, not part of the normative text
21:20:52 <heycam> ed: just not sure there's a good example not shown by the other examples
21:21:16 <heycam> ACTION: Amelia to think of an example of struct.html issue 32
21:21:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3768 - Think of an example of struct.html issue 32 [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2015-03-12].
21:21:38 <heycam> Topic: Issue 23 - other namespaced markup in title and desc, what is the purpose?
21:21:51 <heycam> ed: I think the issue is to say what this purpose is
21:22:36 <heycam> heycam: presumably to include some more structured descriptions rather than just plain text
21:22:50 <heycam> AmeliaBR: and originally also so that you could have complex fallback content, in a browser that didn't support SVG
21:23:00 <heycam> ... that's no longer relevant though
21:23:10 <heycam> ... I'm pretty sure the main purpose is so you can have structured content inside <desc>
21:23:17 <heycam> heycam: note also the HTML parsing algorithm allows HTML content inside here
21:23:40 <heycam> AmeliaBR: I'm not sure if there's much of a benefit within <title>, but some browsers do support <br> within <title> and some don't
21:23:43 <heycam> ... a weird random thing
21:23:47 <heycam> ...  maybe that should be cleaned up
21:23:57 <heycam> heycam: within SVG documents or HTML title?
21:24:27 <AmeliaBR> http://stackoverflow.com/questions/23626422/tooltip-to-display-in-two-separate-lines-not-working-in-firefox/25690802#25690802
21:24:59 <heycam> AmeliaBR: so this may have been coming from this comment that external namespaces are OK
21:25:04 <heycam> ... so some support <br> within title
21:25:51 <heycam> Tav: I don't really like the idea of having <br> in there
21:26:01 <heycam> ... maybe white-space:pre-line?
21:26:08 <heycam> AmeliaBR: that's the other thing that's changed since SVG 1.1
21:26:29 <heycam> ... in the title="" in HTML you can put line breaks
21:26:42 <heycam> ... so either way isn't conforming to specs, but all browsers allow one way or the other
21:26:46 <heycam> ... either with <br> or a hard line break
21:26:49 <Zakim> -??P0
21:26:58 <heycam> heycam: and that's a hard line break without setting the white-space property?
21:27:00 <heycam> AmeliaBR: yes
21:27:05 <heycam> ... and only for <title>
21:27:07 <Zakim> +??P0
21:27:14 <heycam> Tav: putting a <br> seems wrong to me
21:27:21 <heycam> ... allowing white space to be preserved seems more compatible
21:27:30 <heycam> AmeliaBR: and with the new white-space option, I think that will be more reasonable
21:27:42 <heycam> Tav: you can style your title
21:27:58 <heycam> AmeliaBR: it's tricky, because tooltips aren't styled with CSS
21:27:58 <heycam> ... I have no idea whether white-space:pre would apply
21:28:26 <heycam> heycam: do you think we need a issue in here to define this kind of thing?
21:28:54 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to add purpose for markup within title/desc
21:28:54 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3769 - Add purpose for markup within title/desc [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
21:29:09 <heycam> ACTION: Erik to add an issue to describe the behaviour of markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking, at least)
21:29:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3770 - Add an issue to describe the behaviour of markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking, at least) [on Erik Dahlström - due 2015-03-12].
21:29:28 <heycam> Topic: Are xpointer target fragments still supported?
21:29:40 <heycam> AmeliaBR: ChrisL says XPointer stuff should all have been removed from the spec
21:29:47 <heycam> ... so I think we can just remove this
21:29:51 <heycam> ed: yes I think that's right
21:30:08 <heycam> ACTION: Amelia to clean up the reference to XPointer in the spec
21:30:09 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3771 - Clean up the reference to xpointer in the spec [on Amelia Bellamy-Royds - due 2015-03-12].
21:31:13 <Zakim> -Thomas_Smailus
21:31:17 <Zakim> -ed
21:31:18 <Zakim> -??P0
21:31:18 <Zakim> -heycam
21:31:19 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:31:20 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
21:31:21 <Zakim> -krit
21:31:27 <Zakim> -Tav
21:31:42 <Zakim> -AmeliaBR
21:31:43 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has ended
21:31:43 <Zakim> Attendees were Thomas_Smailus, krit, [IPcaller], ed, heycam, AmeliaBR, [Microsoft], stakagi, Tav, nikos
21:32:23 <heycam> trackbot, end telcon
21:32:23 <trackbot> Zakim, list attendees
21:32:23 <Zakim> sorry, trackbot, I don't know what conference this is
21:32:31 <trackbot> RRSAgent, please draft minutes
21:32:31 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-minutes.html trackbot
21:32:32 <trackbot> RRSAgent, bye
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> I see 10 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-actions.rdf :
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to update SVG 2 to make properties with <length>s compute down to absolute px values. [1]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T20-36-35
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron Talk to Tab about implicit number units in properties [2]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T20-41-39
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Add a note about avoiding unitless values [3]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T20-48-38
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Cameron Add a note about avoiding unitless values [4]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T20-48-45
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to make getIntersectionList and friend return a <use> but not the elements it references [5]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-07-27
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Bogdan to help Erik test unusual elements inside <use>d subtrees [6]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-18-29
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Amelia to think of an example of struct.html issue 32 [7]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-21-16
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to add purpose for markup within title/desc [8]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-28-54
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Erik to add an issue to describe the behaviour of markup within title/desc (regarding line breaking, at least) [9]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-29-09
21:32:32 <RRSAgent> ACTION: Amelia to clean up the reference to XPointer in the spec [10]
21:32:32 <RRSAgent>   recorded in http://www.w3.org/2015/03/05-svg-irc#T21-30-08