14:59:59 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #webfonts
14:59:59 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-webfonts-irc
15:00:01 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:00:01 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #webfonts
15:00:03 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 3668
15:00:03 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see IA_Fonts()10:00AM scheduled to start now
15:00:04 <trackbot> Meeting: WebFonts Working Group Teleconference
15:00:04 <trackbot> Date: 04 March 2015
15:01:40 <Vlad> zakim, whho is here?
15:01:40 <Zakim> sorry, Vlad, I do not understand your question
15:01:47 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
15:01:49 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has not yet started, Vlad
15:01:49 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, RSheeter, Vlad, trackbot
15:01:58 <Vlad> zakim, this is 3668
15:01:58 <Zakim> ok, Vlad; that matches IA_Fonts()10:00AM
15:02:01 <Vlad> zakim, who is here?
15:02:01 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Google], sergeym, Vlad
15:02:03 <sergeym> sergeym has joined #webfonts
15:02:03 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, RSheeter, Vlad, trackbot
15:02:06 <kuettel> kuettel has joined #webfonts
15:02:51 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #webfonts
15:02:58 <ChrisL> zakim, code?
15:02:58 <Zakim> the conference code is 3668 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), ChrisL
15:03:08 <RSheeter> in abc does c "follow" a? :D
15:03:09 <Zakim> +ChrisL
15:03:09 <Zakim> + +1.408.921.aaaa
15:03:32 <ChrisL> zakim, aaaa is kuettel
15:03:32 <Zakim> +kuettel; got it
15:03:46 <ChrisL> scribenick ChrisL
15:03:52 <ChrisL> scribenick: ChrisL
15:04:41 <ChrisL> chair: Vlad
15:05:31 <ChrisL> topic: open actions
15:05:46 <jfkthame> jfkthame has joined #webfonts
15:05:59 <Zakim> +jfkthame
15:06:24 <ChrisL> action-133?
15:06:24 <trackbot> action-133 -- Raph Levien to Review the spec edits and finalize the definition of the "nominal size" -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:06:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/133
15:06:54 <ChrisL> Vlad: we have been waiting for this for a long time
15:07:16 <ChrisL> kuettel: add a drop-dead date?
15:07:37 <ChrisL> Vlad: or tell implementors that nominal size is avariable they need to watch for
15:08:00 <ChrisL> ... kind of skeptical that nominal size can work across a range of decompression strategies
15:09:00 <ChrisL> jfkthame: if we want to preserve the wire format, redefine it as original size and clarify it is informative hint on how much it may take - but no guarantee it decompresses to exactly that size
15:09:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: that is what we say now, pretty sure
15:09:46 <ChrisL> Vlad: total sfnt size gives that indication
15:10:19 <ChrisL> ... added language to say this
15:10:43 <ChrisL> jfkthame: section 5.4 nominal size of a glyph, says it may not be same as source original size
15:11:35 <ChrisL> Vlad: all tables have orig size and transformed ones have transformed size. So then just remove the nominal size concept
15:11:53 <ChrisL> jfkthame: and then say you may not get the original size back again
15:12:30 <ChrisL> Vlad: so rewrite all of 5.4
15:13:34 <ChrisL> ChrisL: prefer to drop the nominal size as it is the last open issue now ttc is done
15:14:15 <ChrisL> Vlad: yes we are nearly done bar a few minor adjustments. get ready for last call
15:14:20 <ChrisL> close action-133
15:14:20 <trackbot> Closed action-133.
15:14:35 <ChrisL> close action-159
15:14:35 <trackbot> Closed action-159.
15:14:55 <ChrisL> action-126?
15:14:55 <trackbot> action-126 -- David Kuettel to Check publication of security review -- due 2014-01-15 -- CLOSED
15:14:55 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/126
15:15:24 <RSheeter> action-146?
15:15:24 <trackbot> action-146 -- Chris Lilley to Use ietf-w3c liaison to get review and guidance for next steps on brotli id -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:15:24 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/146
15:16:03 <kuettel> Mark Adler is making great progress on the new Brotli decoder, here is a link to the project and activity
15:16:04 <kuettel> https://github.com/madler/brotli/commits/master
15:16:24 <ChrisL> close action-146
15:16:24 <trackbot> Closed action-146.
15:17:02 <ChrisL> action Vlad to rewrite section 5.4 removing nominal size concept
15:17:02 <trackbot> Created ACTION-163 - Rewrite section 5.4 removing nominal size concept [on Vladimir Levantovsky - due 2015-03-11].
15:17:25 <ChrisL> action-153?
15:17:25 <trackbot> action-153 -- Raph Levien to Work with vlad to clarify all uses of original length -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:17:25 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/153
15:17:49 <ChrisL> Vlad: this is no longer relevant due to nominal size removal
15:17:56 <ChrisL> close action-153
15:17:56 <trackbot> Closed action-153.
15:18:12 <ChrisL> action-156?
15:18:12 <trackbot> action-156 -- Roderick Sheeter to Draft spec update for ttc support -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:18:12 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/156
15:18:37 <ChrisL> Vlad: w3c sent a liaison to SC29, MPEG published a document of font collection issues in consequence
15:18:44 <ChrisL> kuettel: link?
15:18:54 <RSheeter> that was Rod :D
15:18:57 <ChrisL> Vlad: will check. should go to mpeg convenor website
15:19:35 <ChrisL> s/kuettel:/RSheeter:
15:19:46 <ChrisL> Vlad: will send link once doc is posted
15:20:18 <ChrisL> ... those of you not yet on the ad-hoc group are best to join
15:20:56 <Vlad> ISO AHG page: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/mpeg-OTspec/info
15:21:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: current mandate is to study text of standard, verify and review wrt font collections
15:22:11 <ChrisL> ... will make a report to start off an ammendment
15:22:25 <ChrisL> ... work item is approved
15:22:57 <ChrisL> action-155?
15:22:57 <trackbot> action-155 -- Vladimir Levantovsky to Clarify handling of checksum in a font collection -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:22:57 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/155
15:23:04 <ChrisL> close action-155
15:23:04 <trackbot> Closed action-155.
15:23:23 <ChrisL> Vlad: the fix here will be in the MPEG ammendment, nothing to do on our side
15:23:32 <ChrisL> RSheeter: so its not clarified yet?
15:23:46 <ChrisL> Vlad: right, but our spec does not need to change here
15:24:22 <ChrisL> ChrisL: do ammendments take effect automatically?
15:24:25 <ChrisL> Vlad: yes
15:24:47 <ChrisL> ... search on ISO includes any ammendments and corrigenda issued to date
15:25:06 <ChrisL> ... also this spec if freely available to the public
15:25:30 <ChrisL> ... third edition text under final ballot approval so it rolls in all ammendments on second edition
15:25:47 <ChrisL> ChrisL: ok good
15:25:58 <ChrisL> action-156?
15:25:58 <trackbot> action-156 -- Roderick Sheeter to Draft spec update for ttc support -- due 2015-01-14 -- OPEN
15:25:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/156
15:26:19 <ChrisL> Vlad: RSheeter did a great job there
15:26:25 <ChrisL> close action-156
15:26:25 <trackbot> Closed action-156.
15:26:58 <ChrisL> action-160?
15:26:58 <trackbot> action-160 -- Roderick Sheeter to Invite khaled to attend conference calls -- due 2015-02-04 -- OPEN
15:26:58 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/Fonts/WG/track/actions/160
15:27:06 <ChrisL> ChrisL: all sorted now
15:27:12 <ChrisL> close action-160
15:27:12 <trackbot> Closed action-160.
15:27:41 <RSheeter> Is this some sort of record for action items killed in a single call?
15:28:31 <ChrisL> could well be
15:29:17 <ChrisL> Vlad: grouped directory and collection together. one additional normative statement added
15:30:03 <ChrisL> Vlad: rest added to 4.2, on authoring tools and user agents. not reflected in test plan yet
15:30:18 <ChrisL> ... feel free to help with updating test plan
15:32:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: made major cange to media type registration, modified after kuettel finding that font top level type is used widely in practice
15:32:24 <ChrisL> Vlad: links to google doc on mime finding
15:33:19 <ChrisL> (link is broken, we need a stable one)
15:33:31 <ChrisL> kuettel: happy to make a doc to put on w3c site
15:34:04 <ChrisL> david if you make an html or pdf I can upt it on the w3c site
15:34:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: officially defined types poorly used, intuitive but unregistered font/ tlt is widely used
15:35:10 <ChrisL> action: chrisl to bring widely used top-level-type to W3C-IETF liaison
15:35:10 <trackbot> Created ACTION-164 - Bring widely used top-level-type to w3c-ietf liaison [on Chris Lilley - due 2015-03-11].
15:35:37 <kuettel> FYI, the link is resolving to: http://dev.w3.org/webfonts/WOFF2/spec/goo.gl/zbDhUN   With a http:// prefix, would become: http://goo.gl/zbDhUN
15:35:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: security considerations section still applicable, but applies to all font top level types
15:36:14 <ChrisL> Vlad: sfnt, woff and woff2 are the useful ones
15:36:50 <ChrisL> ... but sfnt has 2 optional parameters, tt/cff and aat/etc layout
15:37:19 <ChrisL> ... to be intuitive its better to hard code these, so ttf and otf which removes the outline type
15:37:43 <ChrisL> ... layout remains, otf is enough to say open type layout
15:39:53 <ChrisL> ChrisL: (talks fast on undesirability of parameters)
15:40:14 <ChrisL> Vlad: if its an aat font you can find the parameters needed
15:40:42 <ChrisL> ... reflecting the file extensions makes it more easy to use
15:40:57 <ChrisL> ... and can then specify the layout mechanism if wanted
15:41:24 <ChrisL> ... and for an opentype, just need to specify what outlines are used
15:41:54 <ChrisL> kuettel: in favout of ttf and otf
15:42:05 <ChrisL> ... excellent proposal
15:42:15 <ChrisL> zakim, mute me
15:42:15 <Zakim> ChrisL should now be muted
15:42:36 <ChrisL> Vlad: go ahead and finalize those sections?
15:42:41 <ChrisL> ChrisL: please do
15:43:01 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
15:43:01 <Zakim> ChrisL should no longer be muted
15:43:33 <ChrisL> Vlad: is email contact correct? with a mail archive not a personal email?
15:43:44 <ChrisL> ChrisL: yes its better as a public archive
15:44:22 <ChrisL> ChrisL: using www-font seems good
15:44:23 <ChrisL> Vlad: ok
15:44:52 <ChrisL> topic: glyf/local
15:45:21 <ChrisL> RSheeter: ref impl has put it in an alphabetical order. spec seesm to have not intended that
15:45:46 <ChrisL> .. so when changing it, OTS rejects the fonts as the tables are no longer alphabetical
15:45:57 <ChrisL> Vlad: so OTS is also a woff decoder?
15:46:01 <ChrisL> RSheeter: yes
15:46:52 <ChrisL> RSheeter: OTS rejects tables not in the OT spec order. so glyf, loca, hmtx
15:47:02 <ChrisL> ... before g, h, l ie alphabetical
15:47:26 <ChrisL> ... change pairs glyf and loca
15:47:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: its correct per the spec
15:48:08 <ChrisL> ... how difficult to update OTS? Mostly we modify spec to meet impl, does not seem correct here
15:48:53 <jfkthame> OTS was fixed a couple of days ago, but what's in currently-shipping browsers will fail
15:49:03 <ChrisL> ... good reason to keep glyf and loca togather, reconstructs both tables at same time and having multiple pairs in the collection, with pointers rather than offsets, is better
15:49:26 <ChrisL> RSheeter: nothing much supports collections yet. concern is what order we require for a non-collection
15:49:56 <ChrisL> RSheeter: practical issue is that ref impl makes a woff2 that does not work in browser
15:50:08 <ChrisL> ChrisL: until new OTS is deployed
15:50:41 <ChrisL> Vlad: can this be a maintenance update?
15:50:56 <ChrisL> RSheeter: no it would be a future version and broken in the interim
15:51:26 <ChrisL> Vlad: or could keep the ref as it used to be, update encoder after OTS is fixed - but then legacy files would fail
15:51:50 <ChrisL> RSheeter: current woff files are in ots order
15:52:23 <ChrisL> jfkthame: not sure legacy files would fail. if decoder accepts either OTS order or paired glyp/loca then it all works
15:52:57 <ChrisL> Vlad: alphabetical did not matter before
15:53:10 <ChrisL> ... its quite a change in the spec
15:53:41 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute me
15:53:41 <Zakim> ChrisL was not muted, ChrisL
15:54:09 <ChrisL> Vlad: should be able to avoid re-ordering
15:54:36 <ChrisL> .. put a loca placeholder
15:55:01 <ChrisL> jfkthame: current text says loca must immediately follow the transformed glyph table
15:55:20 <ChrisL> .. and preserve physical order of tables. so we loose physical table order
15:55:55 <ChrisL> Vlad: may not matter for some impls but there is a recommended table order and so should be preseved. also easier to decompress without buffering tables
15:56:22 <ChrisL> ChrisL: what was the OTS fix?
15:56:47 <ChrisL> jfkthame: no longer cares about incoming table sorting. now it warns and resorts to correct order
15:57:08 <ChrisL> ... it was an OTS bug for it to check that for WOFF2; ok for WOFF1 and sfnt
15:57:23 <ChrisL> ... OTS should not have been enforcing that
15:57:58 <ChrisL> Vlad: woff2 has no random access intocompressed stream so that made sense to do that way
15:58:24 <ChrisL> Vlad: current spec is correct and gives optimal implementation
15:58:32 <ChrisL> RSheeter: except it won't work
15:58:59 <ChrisL> Vlad: it wont work with OTS before the bugfix
15:59:17 <ChrisL> RSheeter: risk people conclude it doesn't work
15:59:42 <ChrisL> ChrisL: timescale for new OTS deployment?
15:59:46 <ChrisL> jfkthame: couple months
15:59:58 <ChrisL> RSheeter: sounds about right
16:00:01 <jfkthame> s/couple/few/
16:00:15 <ChrisL> kuettel: there are two flavours of OTS?
16:00:33 <ChrisL> RSheeter: old abandoned one and the maintained fork
16:00:53 <ChrisL> ... chrome shipping the old unmaintained one
16:01:13 <ChrisL> Vlad: reluctant to glorify this bug in a spec change
16:01:20 <ChrisL> RSheeter: what is the harm?
16:01:52 <ChrisL> Vlad: loose physical order of tables. OT spec recommends a particular order. some impls may expect that order
16:02:02 <ChrisL> RSheeter: hypothetical, or known?
16:02:10 <ChrisL> Vlad: unknown
16:02:28 <ChrisL> Vlad: presume the ordering was done for a reason
16:02:42 <ChrisL> RSheeter: so its a hypothetical against a real one
16:02:51 <ChrisL> Vlad: but the other one is a bug
16:03:18 <ChrisL> Vlad: so what should we do
16:04:26 <ChrisL> ChrisL: if we don't preserve the ug then chrome and firefox stop working with woff2
16:04:44 <ChrisL> Vlad: monotype used the earlier code, would have to be redone
16:05:11 <ChrisL> ... in the long run its better to say, recompress your woff2 fonts and go clean for the future
16:05:52 <ChrisL> RSheeter: actually, its telling people to redo in future and there is an interim phase as browsers updates are staggered
16:06:21 <ChrisL> jfkthame: for non-collections, as long as decoder does not require loca right after glyf existing fonts continue to work.
16:06:33 <ChrisL> ... recompression is not rewquired
16:07:09 <ChrisL> ... but dont release an updated encoder until the decoder with bugfix is deployed
16:07:28 <ChrisL> Vlad: like that option. legacy data can still work
16:08:00 <ChrisL> Vlad: this is probably not the last time we find a need to change everything.
16:08:16 <ChrisL> s/everything/something/
16:08:28 <ChrisL> RSheeter: current spec text has no clear advantage
16:09:15 <ChrisL> Vlad: on the encoding side you drop the loca. on the decode you construct it at same time as glyph, so its logical to treat them as a pair
16:09:42 <ChrisL> ... loca in table in woff2 is just a placeholder to say one needs to be reconstructed
16:10:01 <ChrisL> ... for font collections, mismatched glyph and loca is a disaster
16:10:27 <ChrisL> ... using pointer to exact location, ok but with an index it will break
16:10:58 <ChrisL> ... so pairing as a conformance requirement on encoding and decoding is the right thing to do
16:11:06 <ChrisL> RSheeter: conceeded for collections
16:11:55 <ChrisL> RSheeter: not clear why physical order of tables matters outside of collections
16:12:19 <ChrisL> Vlad: recommended physical order has been in place for years
16:12:37 <ChrisL> ... its the safe thing to do, if it matters then preserve it
16:14:04 <ChrisL> ChrisL: deployed encoder released or not?
16:14:21 <ChrisL> jfkthame: current github is already like that
16:14:36 <ChrisL> jfkthame: put corrected code in a branch and not merge to head yet
16:15:04 <ChrisL> ChrisL: like the idea of putting it in a branch
16:15:33 <ChrisL> only real drawback is that collections don't work yet
16:15:42 <ChrisL> jfkthame: nothing breaks yet
16:16:32 <ChrisL> Vlad: would need quite some research to see if any impls break in the wider context of all font tools
16:17:03 <ChrisL> Vlad: seems the fix is already there, just waiting for it to deploy
16:17:33 <jfkthame> https://github.com/khaledhosny/ots/commit/e779d45e7a96d3b97ed3d2b76db7478cb86fdd8b
16:17:43 <ChrisL> ChrisL: can we track on browsers how they update to the new OTS?
16:18:42 <ChrisL> ChrisL: can we make a test case font that exposes the bug so it can be tracked per-browser
16:18:56 <ChrisL> RSheeter: (looks for ticket moving chrome to new OTS)
16:19:06 <RSheeter> I think it's https://code.google.com/p/chromium/issues/detail?id=339857
16:20:17 <ChrisL> action vlad to review spec for language changes to keep spirit of physical table ordering and tables in between glyf and loca
16:20:17 <trackbot> Created ACTION-165 - Review spec for language changes to keep spirit of physical table ordering and tables in between glyf and loca [on Vladimir Levantovsky - due 2015-03-11].
16:20:38 <ChrisL> I mailed some text suggestions just before the call
16:20:53 <RSheeter> I liked those; seemed pretty unambiguous
16:21:10 <ChrisL> (adjourned)
16:21:18 <ChrisL> zakim, list attendees
16:21:18 <Zakim> As of this point the attendees have been [Google], sergeym, Vlad, ChrisL, +1.408.921.aaaa, kuettel, jfkthame
16:21:36 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:21:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL
16:21:46 <Zakim> -sergeym
16:21:47 <Zakim> -ChrisL
16:21:48 <RSheeter> How come I'm not an attendee?
16:21:52 <Zakim> -jfkthame
16:21:54 <Zakim> -Vlad
16:21:59 <Zakim> -kuettel
16:22:00 <Zakim> -[Google]
16:22:00 <Zakim> IA_Fonts()10:00AM has ended
16:22:00 <Zakim> Attendees were [Google], sergeym, Vlad, ChrisL, +1.408.921.aaaa, kuettel, jfkthame
16:22:04 <ChrisL> zakim, google holds RSheeter
16:22:04 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named 'google'
16:22:17 <ChrisL> zakim, [Google] holds RSheeter
16:22:17 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not recognize a party named '[Google]'
16:22:18 <Vlad> Rod, you are [Google] :)
16:22:27 <jfkthame> jfkthame has left #webfonts
16:22:27 <ChrisL> present+ RSheeter
16:22:33 <ChrisL> rrsagent, make minutes
16:22:33 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/03/04-webfonts-minutes.html ChrisL