14:58:04 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #tt
14:58:04 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-irc
14:58:06 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
14:58:06 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #tt
14:58:08 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be TTML
14:58:08 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
14:58:09 <trackbot> Meeting: Timed Text Working Group Teleconference
14:58:09 <trackbot> Date: 26 February 2015
15:01:03 <atai2> atai2 has joined #tt
15:01:08 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has now started
15:01:16 <Zakim> +nigel
15:01:25 <nigel> chair: nigel
15:01:28 <nigel> Present: nigel
15:01:36 <nigel> scribe: nigel
15:01:59 <Zakim> +Andreas
15:02:11 <nigel> Present+ Andreas
15:02:30 <Zakim> +pal
15:02:40 <nigel> Present+ pal
15:02:46 <Frans> Frans has joined #tt
15:03:00 <Zakim> + +41.22.717.aaaa
15:03:18 <nigel> Present+ Frans
15:03:22 <nigel> zakim, aaaa is Frans
15:03:22 <Zakim> +Frans; got it
15:03:58 <nigel> Regrets: none
15:04:04 <nigel> Regrets: glenn
15:05:03 <plh> plh has joined #tt
15:05:12 <Zakim> +Plh
15:05:17 <nigel> Present+ plh
15:06:44 <nigel> Topic: WD publication process
15:06:50 <nigel> nigel: I propose to postpone this
15:07:05 <nigel> plh: The new process is for early adopters - there's no pressure to adopt it right now.
15:07:20 <nigel> ... If the editors of the WebVTT spec want to use it and the group is okay with it there's no reason why not.
15:07:41 <Zakim> +jdsmith
15:07:45 <jdsmith> jdsmith has joined #tt
15:07:55 <nigel> nigel: I have a preference for adopting the same processes across the whole group when possible.
15:08:06 <nigel> ... Note that the WebVTT editors are not present now.
15:08:13 <nigel> Present+ jdsmith
15:08:42 <nigel> plh: Challenging nigel's approach, the new system does lower the workload for Thierry, so it's
15:08:53 <nigel> ... good to adopt even if just for WebVTT for now.
15:11:02 <nigel> nigel: Just to introduce this a bit better, it's a system that allows automatic publishing of WDs only
15:11:21 <nigel> ... on any day of the week, as long as the documents meet the automatically checked technical
15:11:24 <nigel> ... requirements.
15:12:36 <nigel> pal: A priori I don't have a problem with this - as long as it has benefits.
15:12:56 <nigel> nigel: There's also the idea that a single resolution from the group could pass publication
15:13:09 <nigel> ... control to the editors to publish WDs whenever they like. That's a separate matter that I'm
15:13:14 <nigel> ... currently less comfortable with.
15:13:27 <nigel> plh: CSS, WebApps, Web Performance groups have made blanket decisions. Other groups want
15:13:33 <nigel> ... to record the decision on every single publication.
15:14:09 <pal> pal has joined #tt
15:14:31 <nigel> nigel: I don't propose a blanket decision just yet, with those present now. I think Glenn
15:14:43 <nigel> ... may have some technical questions about the new system, which we can cover later.
15:15:02 <nigel> Topic: Action Items
15:15:20 <nigel> action-368?
15:15:20 <trackbot> action-368 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Update publication timeline diagram -- due 2015-02-27 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:15:20 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/368
15:15:32 <nigel> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/Publications
15:16:03 <nigel> close action-368
15:16:03 <trackbot> Closed action-368.
15:16:11 <nigel> action-369?
15:16:11 <trackbot> action-369 -- Nigel Megitt to Collate smpte issues and draft dispositions and circulate on reflector as a precursor to a liaison -- due 2015-02-05 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:16:11 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/369
15:16:39 <nigel> nigel: I did a second pass at this and sent it yesterday to the reflector. It includes the clarifications
15:16:47 <nigel> ... from when we discussed the queries 2 weeks ago.
15:17:39 <nigel> nigel: Pierre, are you happy that this forms the basis to clarify the position with SMPTE?
15:18:03 <nigel> pal: Yes. I think we should also consider the SMPTE-TT background color initial value change.
15:18:13 <nigel> ... It would be good to ask the question because there might be some specific history on that.
15:18:22 <nigel> ... Before making a change to IMSC 1 it would be good to learn that history.
15:19:12 <nigel> Action: pal Draft SMPTE request including dispositions from Action-369 and backgroundColor initial value question
15:19:12 <trackbot> Created ACTION-378 - Draft smpte request including dispositions from action-369 and backgroundcolor initial value question [on Pierre-Anthony Lemieux - due 2015-03-05].
15:19:39 <nigel> pal: I think the latter question is more urgent since IMSC 1 is in CR whereas TTML2 is at an earlier stage.
15:19:59 <nigel> action-376?
15:19:59 <trackbot> action-376 -- Nigel Megitt to Update cp21 to check current status of all issues -- due 2015-02-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:19:59 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/376
15:20:39 <nigel> nigel: I've updated the status of CP21 to Open since Issue-231 is open.
15:20:51 <nigel> ... I'll also update the index page to reflect that.
15:21:16 <nigel> ... done.
15:21:40 <nigel> nigel: I think we're waiting for some more edits to TTML2 on character rotation for issue-231.
15:22:08 <nigel> action-377?
15:22:08 <trackbot> action-377 -- Andreas Tai to Capture the ebu-tt-d style attributes issue on imsc 1 and raise an issue -- due 2015-02-26 -- PENDINGREVIEW
15:22:08 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/377
15:22:39 <nigel> atai2: I added an issue for IMSC 1 to add some more information for the extension features
15:22:54 <nigel> ... multiRowAlign and linePadding and state that in EBU-TT-D they can only be specified as
15:23:09 <nigel> ... children of <style> it is different in IMSC 1 where they can appear on <region>, <body>,
15:23:13 <nigel> ... <div> and <p>
15:23:35 <nigel> ... The issue is issue-375.
15:23:38 <nigel> issue-375?
15:23:38 <trackbot> issue-375 -- Use of the ebutts:linePadding and ebutts:multiRowAlign in IMSC 1 -- pending review
15:23:38 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/375
15:24:40 <nigel> pal: The proposed solution for this is in place in the editor's draft.
15:24:41 <nigel> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/ttml/raw-file/tip/ttml-ww-profiles/ttml-ww-profiles.html
15:25:05 <nigel> atai2: I'm just looking at this...
15:25:16 <nigel> pal: The change is in §7.4 Text Profile features, just above §8.
15:26:22 <nigel> atai2: It's a minor issue if you specify where it may be specified rather than where it shall not.
15:26:35 <nigel> pal: The problem is that if you do that then it's not clear that it can not be specified elsewhere.
15:26:40 <nigel> ... I think this is unambiguous.
15:27:02 <nigel> atai2: I have to have a look at this - I need to think about multiRowAlign. I think it applies only
15:27:12 <nigel> ... to <p>.
15:27:27 <nigel> pal: I had the same question and I couldn't find unambiguous guidance in EBU-TT-D so I followed
15:27:36 <nigel> ... the issue to the letter and put them both in the same bucket.
15:27:58 <nigel> atai2: I will check this with the editor of the EBU-TT-D annex and internally. It works alongside
15:28:15 <nigel> ... tts:textAlign which can only be applied to <p>. It's missing in the EBU-TT-D spec whether or
15:28:23 <nigel> ... not multiRowAlign is inheritable.
15:28:31 <nigel> atai2: I'll edit the issue accordingly.
15:28:58 <nigel> reopen issue-375
15:28:58 <trackbot> Re-opened issue-375.
15:29:21 <nigel> action-365?
15:29:21 <trackbot> action-365 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Review change proposal 21 in the light of closure of issue-229. -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
15:29:21 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/365
15:30:28 <nigel> nigel: This is now dependent on action-378 so I'll bump the due date back.
15:31:14 <nigel> action-375?
15:31:14 <trackbot> action-375 -- Pierre-Anthony Lemieux to Complete processing of dece test criteria as per action-373 -- due 2015-02-26 -- OPEN
15:31:14 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/actions/375
15:31:57 <nigel> pal: I've spent some quality time with the DECE test suite...
15:32:07 <nigel> Topic: IMSC Test Suite and Implementation Report
15:32:09 <pal> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/IMSC1_Implementation_Report
15:33:02 <nigel> pal: Last week I had completed transfer of one of the tests from the DECE test suite.
15:33:20 <nigel> ... I continued with that and added a second one. I started doing the remainder and realised that
15:33:35 <nigel> ... all the rest are focused on things that are already tested in other tests or focused on DECE
15:33:48 <nigel> ... specific issues like track selection and sync with video. I did not see an immediate need
15:34:04 <Zakim> -Plh
15:34:54 <nigel> ... to include those. My inclination is to close this action because we're good.
15:35:02 <nigel> nigel: Have you deleted the ones that aren't relevant?
15:35:15 <nigel> pal: I've not deleted them but I've shortened the table to include only those that are necessary.
15:35:32 <nigel> ... Previously it included indiscriminately all the DECE tests. There was a lot of overlap and for
15:35:46 <nigel> ... the purposes of the test suite we don't need all of them to cover all the IMSC 1 features.
15:36:04 <nigel> nigel: Do we have a list of exactly which features we want to test?
15:36:18 <nigel> pal: As per the email thread, we want to test every single feature that IMSC 1 introduces that is
15:36:21 <nigel> ... not in TTML1.
15:36:57 <nigel> pal: The extensions section of IMSC 1 is a good place to start.
15:37:19 <nigel> nigel: That doesn't include all the normative features in the spec though does it?
15:37:56 <nigel> pal: Those are all constraints relative to TTML1 that are present there.
15:38:01 <nigel> nigel: What about e.g. HRM?
15:38:35 <nigel> pal: The suggestion from thierry is to create a max complexity document, which is done and is in the test suite.
15:40:33 <nigel> nigel: I think for tracking purposes we need a document that lists all the features we want to test, with the tests that verify each one.
15:40:52 <nigel> pal: The table in the implementation report is my version of that list. The bold all column rows
15:41:06 <nigel> ... describe each feature, and the rows beneath each one are the tests that verify them.
15:43:24 <nigel> nigel: I'd like everyone whose interested to check that a) they're happy with the features being
15:43:48 <nigel> ... tested and b) that the tests do check them. I'd like to set a date for completion of that review.
15:44:05 <nigel> jdsmith: I think the process is clear here. For me the main question is: do the test cases fully
15:44:18 <nigel> ... test the extension? I can see how this table was built for the Implementation Report. It looks
15:45:14 <nigel> ... like it covers all of the extension paragraphs in appendix F.
15:45:44 <nigel> nigel: My general concern is that not all the normative statements in the spec are captured as
15:45:57 <nigel> ... extension features in F so we need to review against the whole document.
15:46:58 <nigel> nigel: I propose that we allow 2 weeks from today for everyone to review the implementation report
15:47:14 <nigel> ... and either raise any queries/issues or make changes or say they're happy with it (where silence
15:47:19 <nigel> ... is taken as happiness!)
15:47:49 <nigel> group: happy with proposal to allow 2 weeks from today to close off the tests.
15:48:23 <nigel> pal: What's captured today in the implementation report is everything I think we need from the DECE test criteria.
15:48:42 <nigel> close action-375
15:48:42 <trackbot> Closed action-375.
15:49:09 <nigel> Topic: F2F
15:49:24 <nigel> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/F2F-april-2015
15:49:58 <nigel> nigel: Please could all who are attending confirm by adding your names to the list there?
15:50:54 <nigel> nigel: Also please let me know if you want agenda items - I don't want to add whole new topics
15:50:57 <nigel> ... on the day if possible.
15:51:10 <nigel> atai2: I'm not sure yet if I can come. It would be good if we can continue with what we begain
15:51:16 <nigel> s/begain/began
15:51:28 <nigel> ... in Geneva on TTML/WebVTT mapping.
15:51:46 <nigel> pal: To make this productive, and thinking about our past experience, someone would need to
15:51:51 <nigel> ... bring a strawman starting point.
15:51:53 <nigel> atai2: +1
15:53:15 <nigel> atai2: I think that there's interest in this topic in the industry and we should continue to work
15:53:36 <nigel> ... on it. Either with a strawman to discuss or just how to proceed on it in general. I agree that
15:53:51 <nigel> ... we have to make more steps forward before discussing in detail at the F2F. We should not
15:53:58 <nigel> ... in general let it fall under the table.
15:54:58 <nigel> Topic: Issues
15:55:04 <nigel> issue-373?
15:55:05 <trackbot> issue-373 -- tts:lineHeight should apply to span -- raised
15:55:05 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/373
15:55:51 <nigel> nigel: Glenn has raised this to allow for height control of ruby areas by using lineHeight on span.
15:56:08 <nigel> pal: TTML was designed to capture as many authorial intents as possible, but it's now beginning
15:56:18 <nigel> ... to look like generalised text markup.
15:57:23 <nigel> nigel: My view is that TTML2 should include every semantic that is needed for global presentation
15:57:45 <nigel> ... of timed text. There's another view that all text presentation semantics should be factored out
15:57:53 <nigel> ... e.g. to CSS, but I don't know how we'd do that.
15:58:32 <nigel> pal: My query is more philosophical - we're using span for a lot of the ruby presentations at the moment.
15:59:59 <nigel> reopen issue-373
15:59:59 <trackbot> Re-opened issue-373.
16:00:09 <nigel> issue-374?
16:00:09 <trackbot> issue-374 -- Generalize tts:fontVariantPosition -- raised
16:00:09 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/374
16:00:48 <nigel> nigel: This is to allow half and full width forms and ruby as well as super and sub, combinatorially.
16:01:03 <nigel> reopen issue-374
16:01:03 <trackbot> Re-opened issue-374.
16:01:39 <nigel> issue-364?
16:01:39 <trackbot> issue-364 -- Relax constraint between the extents of the root container and the dimensions of the related video object frame -- pending review
16:01:39 <trackbot> http://www.w3.org/AudioVideo/TT/tracker/issues/364
16:02:50 <Zakim> -pal
16:02:56 <Zakim> -Andreas
16:02:57 <Zakim> -jdsmith
16:02:57 <Zakim> -Frans
16:03:00 <Zakim> -nigel
16:03:01 <Zakim> SYMM_TTWG()10:00AM has ended
16:03:01 <Zakim> Attendees were nigel, Andreas, pal, +41.22.717.aaaa, Frans, Plh, jdsmith
16:03:23 <nigel> nigel: I'm not sure where we're up to on this one but it's been pending review for over a month.
16:03:30 <nigel> ... Given the time let's come back to it next week.
16:03:35 <nigel> Topic: Change Proposals
16:03:54 <nigel> nigel: I've added a 'before CR exit' priority and moved Tests to it since we don't need tests for the
16:04:03 <nigel> ... WD for wide review, but only need them for CR exit.
16:04:23 <nigel> nigel: Thanks all for attending - I'll adjourn now, meet again same time next week. [adjourns meeting]
16:04:29 <nigel> rrsagent, make logs public
16:04:32 <nigel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:04:32 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-minutes.html nigel
16:07:15 <nigel> s/postpone this/postpone this because one of our Editors, Glenn has sent his regrets for today.
16:14:34 <nigel> ScribeOptions: -final -noEmbedDiagnostics
16:14:36 <nigel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:14:36 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/26-tt-minutes.html nigel
17:21:23 <Zakim> Zakim has left #tt