18:00:08 RRSAgent has joined #social 18:00:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/24-social-irc 18:00:10 RRSAgent, make logs public 18:00:10 Zakim has joined #social 18:00:12 Zakim, this will be SOCL 18:00:12 ok, trackbot; I see T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM scheduled to start now 18:00:13 Meeting: Social Web Working Group Teleconference 18:00:13 Date: 24 February 2015 18:00:24 Zakim, code? 18:00:24 the conference code is 7625 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), harry 18:00:47 T&S_SOCWG()1:00PM has now started 18:00:53 +bblfish 18:01:25 +Arnaud 18:01:42 Hmm Zakim doesn't seem to want to talk to me today 18:01:50 +aaronpk 18:01:52 rhiaro keep trying 18:01:57 here neither :\ 18:02:01 I might have to phone-dial 18:02:16 It's just silent, I'm not even getting the 'welcome' 18:02:25 rhiaro redial 18:02:26 took me a couple tries 18:02:35 + +1.617.247.aaaa 18:02:37 zakim must know it's about to be retired 18:02:39 This is new. I keep trying. 18:02:48 Zakim, aaaa is me 18:02:48 +ben_thatmustbeme; got it 18:02:50 +??P8 18:02:52 zakim, ??p8 is me 18:02:52 +tantek; got it 18:02:54 Zakim, mute me 18:02:54 ben_thatmustbeme should now be muted 18:03:11 +??P3 18:03:21 + +1.857.445.aabb 18:03:25 Zakim, who is on the call? 18:03:25 On the phone I see bblfish, Arnaud, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), tantek, ??P3, +1.857.445.aabb 18:03:36 Zakim, ??P3 is eprodrom 18:03:36 +eprodrom; got it 18:03:39 Zakim, aabb is harry 18:03:39 +harry; got it 18:03:46 +??P2 18:03:55 Zakim, ??P2 is me 18:03:55 +bret; got it 18:03:59 Zakim: mute me 18:04:11 Zakim, mute me 18:04:11 bret should now be muted 18:04:24 anyone else having trouble calling in? 18:04:25 +??P5 18:05:09 tantek: I'm having trouble 18:05:15 + +1.408.335.aacc 18:05:19 I'm going to try my phone once it boots, but SIP is not working. 18:05:29 bill-looby has joined #social 18:05:37 1.408.335.aacc is me 18:05:47 Zakim, aacc is KevinMarks 18:05:47 +KevinMarks; got it 18:05:57 chair: tantek 18:05:58 chair: tantek 18:06:06 +??P10 18:06:10 Hooray for aaronpk 18:06:12 scribenick: aaronpk 18:06:16 scribe: aaronpk 18:06:18 aaronpk++ 18:06:18 zakim, who is here? 18:06:18 On the phone I see bblfish, Arnaud, aaronpk, ben_thatmustbeme (muted), tantek, eprodrom, harry, bret (muted), rhiaro (muted), KevinMarks, ??P10 18:06:21 aaronpk has 713 karma 18:06:21 On IRC I see bill-looby, Zakim, RRSAgent, eprodrom, Augier, harry, bblfish, tantek, AnnB, timbl, jaywink, melvster, KevinMarks, ben_thatmustbeme, shepazu, Arnaud, cwebber2, 18:06:21 ... wseltzer, mattl, JakeHart, bret, wilkie, Loqi, dwhly, nickstenn, bigbluehat, rhiaro, oshepherd, rektide, Tsyesika, aaronpk, trackbot 18:06:29 Zakim,+??P10 is me 18:06:29 sorry, bill-looby, I do not recognize a party named '+??P10' 18:06:32 agenda: https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-24#Agenda 18:06:40 Zakim, ??P10 is bill-looby 18:06:40 +bill-looby; got it 18:06:51 you have to omit the + 18:07:06 thanks ! 18:07:13 sandro has joined #social 18:07:20 TOPIC: minutes from last week 18:07:24 +Ann 18:07:27 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-02-17-minutes 18:07:41 tantek: any objections? otherwise I move to approve them 18:07:48 +1 18:07:49 ... any +1s on the minutes? 18:07:56 +1 18:07:59 ha ha 18:08:02 +1 18:08:06 +Sandro 18:08:07 +??P12 18:08:10 My -0 finger is tired 18:08:14 ...minutes approved not seeing any objections 18:08:16 Zakim, ??P12 is me 18:08:16 +Tsyesika; got it 18:08:29 Zakim, mute me 18:08:29 Tsyesika should now be muted 18:08:33 TOPIC: next week's telcon 18:08:44 tantek: scheduled for the 3rd, Arnaud will be chairing 18:08:51 ... next f2f is coming up on march 17th 18:08:52 I added a countdown for 3/17 12:00am (#5639) 18:09:01 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/2015-03-17#Participation 18:09:01 ... there are 10 people RSVPd, please RSVP to the meeting ASAP 18:09:07 ...book your travel and such 18:09:17 ...ify you want to participate remotely there is a section for th that as well 18:09:33 TOPIC: Annotation WG 18:09:46 q+ 18:09:53 tantek: I proposed in IRC that we formally invite any member of the annotation WG to considering attending our meeting as observer 18:10:03 Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82351&oldid=82345 18:10:04 Abasset made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82350&oldid=82346 18:10:05 Bret made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82352&oldid=82347 18:10:05 ... observer means attending a WG meeting but is not a member, it doesn't mean they can't speak 18:10:06 Sandro made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82353&oldid=81716 18:10:08 +[IPcaller] 18:10:12 Zakim, IPcaller is me 18:10:12 +wilkie; got it 18:10:24 +1 18:10:27 will do 18:10:28 +1 18:10:30 ... since we'll be talking about the storeies at the f2f, invite the annotation members to the meeting 18:10:34 +1 18:10:36 +1 18:10:40 q? 18:10:42 +1 sounds good to me, more input is better 18:10:42 I'm not sure who is local, but I think if someone is that would be great 18:10:43 +1 18:10:56 q- 18:11:04 ack ??P5 18:11:07 oh I thought I was p5, I was trying to figure out who I was 18:11:14 ack next 18:11:31 Grrr not working 18:11:41 I'll pass 18:11:50 zakim, ??p5 is rhiaro 18:11:50 I already had ??P5 as rhiaro, tantek 18:11:56 Just wanted to note that I think this was the subject of discussion at TPAC 18:11:59 And I agree, +1 18:12:07 When we met with Annotations 18:12:23 tantek: harry can we action you to contact the annotation WG and extend an invitation on behalf of the social WG? 18:12:49 ... it'd be great to send their list an email directly to extend the invitation 18:12:58 ...don't need to make it a requirement but we shoudl make everyone feel welcome to contribute 18:13:04 harry: agree 100% 18:13:05 We have an F2F coming up, may be useful to have Annotators there 18:13:22 ACTION: harry to invite Annotations WG 18:13:22 Created ACTION-40 - Invite annotations wg [on Harry Halpin - due 2015-03-03]. 18:13:53 tantek: anybody have anything to report on the tracker? 18:14:06 Arnaud: there were several new issues that were raised 18:14:08 new issues: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/raised 18:14:26 Issue 12: http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/12 18:14:27 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/12 18:14:42 + +1.773.614.aadd 18:14:43 tantek: we raised this in last week's telcon 18:14:53 Issue 12? 18:14:54 ...can we assume that if it was raised during a telcon that we can accept it? 18:14:56 Issue 12 18:15:04 issue-12 18:15:04 issue-12 -- Action Types Structure and Processing Model -- raised 18:15:04 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/12 18:15:10 Arnaud: yeah you can propose we can open it if people agree 18:15:11 Zakim, +1.773.614.aadd is me 18:15:11 +cwebber2; got it 18:15:13 tantek: any objections to opening this issue? 18:15:24 Arnaud: what that means is we accept this is an issue we need to address 18:15:43 tantek: in general unless there are some extenuating circumstances, if a member of the WG opens an issue our default should be to accept and open it 18:16:01 +1 to open 18:16:22 AnnB: I just learned that, too! 18:16:40 is this raise/catch? 18:16:55 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/13 18:16:56 tantek: issue 13 18:17:01 resolved: open issue-12 without objection 18:17:09 Which activity types are built into AS2, and how are they defined/structured? 18:17:33 ...this sounds like a good wiki doc kind of thing 18:17:37 Is this http://jasnell.github.io/w3c-socialwg-activitystreams/activitystreams2-vocabulary.html ? 18:17:42 ...where we document different implementations and publishing support 18:17:50 q+ 18:17:51 ...i think we should accept and open it 18:17:52 issue-13 18:17:52 issue-13 -- Which activity types are built into AS2, and how are they defined/structured? -- raised 18:17:52 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/13 18:17:55 ack eprodrom 18:18:03 timbl has joined #social 18:18:20 eprodrom: we have a vocab document for AS2 that does most of the mapping that eric is asking for 18:18:31 ...not sure if he had seen that document when he raised the issue or if i misunderstood his issue 18:18:39 AnnB: regardless that could just be an easy answer if that'st he case 18:19:26 tantek: evna I think this this different from just a mapping 18:19:35 ...it seems he is just asking for documentation on what AS2 publishers are actually publishing 18:19:42 Not in IRC 18:19:46 ...is erik on the call? 18:19:52 s/that'st he/that's the/ 18:19:54 +1 to raise and let's see if dret can confirm 18:19:56 quoting -- list of "well-known" activity types for AS2 18:19:59 s/evna/evan/ 18:20:02 Bill-looby made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82354&oldid=82353 18:20:03 Sandro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/2015-03-17]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82356&oldid=82354 18:20:04 Rhiaro made 2 edits to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82358&oldid=82352 18:20:21 issue-14 18:20:21 issue-14 -- as:Link adds a lot of complexity, if we keep it we need to clarify consequences of using it instead of as:Object -- raised 18:20:21 http://www.w3.org/Social/track/issues/14 18:20:22 resolved: to open issue-13 18:20:24 I like that we can see who's editing the wiki during the teleconference 18:21:02 tantek: this seems like a reasonable issue to raise, any objections to opening it? 18:21:03 +1 to open 18:21:19 ...hearing no objections 18:21:22 rasolved: open issue-14 18:21:34 TOPIC: Social API User Stories 18:21:45 tantek: there's been al ot of discussion in various forms abotu that, people have been voting, which is even better 18:21:52 ...just a reminder, voting ends tonight at midnight EST 18:21:55 lots to vote on 18:22:08 q+ 18:22:11 ...since voting is stil going on, do we want to review any of the current voting results? or should we postpone until the voting period prefer? 18:22:15 q+ 18:22:17 ack eprodrom 18:22:30 q+ 18:22:32 eprodrom: just to let people know, there are around 90 stories on the page, it takes a long time to get through this 18:22:34 It took me 6 hours in a row today to do them all! 18:22:43 ...i split my time across 2-3 days, don't leave this til the last 5 minutes before midnight 18:22:59 ... because they're all on one page we can have edit conflicts. the best way to do it is to lcick edit on each individual story 18:23:08 ...to be less likely to have edit conflicts 18:23:11 q+ 18:23:15 tantek: excellent advice 18:23:28 -Tsyesika 18:23:37 tantek: the other tip i saw go around was if you use ~~~~ it will sign your name and timestamp as well 18:24:08 q? 18:24:12 ack bill-looby 18:24:15 +??P12 18:24:23 Zakim, +??P12 is me 18:24:24 sorry, Tsyesika, I do not recognize a party named '+??P12' 18:24:27 bill-looby: i noticed that everyone is lsing energy by the time they get to the last user story 18:24:29 Zakim, ??P12 is me 18:24:29 +Tsyesika; got it 18:24:34 ...might be a good idea for some people to start at the end 18:24:39 Zakim, mute me 18:24:39 Tsyesika should now be muted 18:24:40 +1 18:24:53 +1 18:24:54 ...the number of comments went down by the end, lots of just +1 +0 by the end 18:25:05 tantek: that's good advice. if people want to try voting from the bottom up as well as top down that'd be great 18:25:19 ...perhaps another strategy is to start with the stories that don't have a lot of comments yet 18:25:29 it take a lot of time, but I really find the comments to be valuable 18:25:48 tantek: would like to suggest we postpone the discussion of process 18:25:54 +1 18:26:06 ... would like to leave this open in peopels' minds while voting and not try to shape the votes in terms of an accepted process 18:26:11 q? 18:26:15 +1 18:26:16 who is speaking? 18:26:21 +1 18:26:21 bill-looby is speaking 18:26:37 or is that harry? 18:26:40 sounds more like Harry 18:26:47 +1 it makes sense because ew have a lot of -1s that can be controversial 18:26:48 yeah I think that might be harry on a better connection than usual 18:26:52 harry: as soon as the voting has ended, as chairs, we should go through the results before the next meeting, and imagine next ways forward. 18:27:02 ...i'd be doubtful if we can cover all in the API but that they might have some value in the future 18:27:05 It would have been nice to see more effort to de-dupe some of these stories before voting 18:27:19 ack 18:27:26 q? 18:27:29 ack harry 18:27:32 ack bblfish 18:28:17 timbl has joined #social 18:28:22 bblfish: there's lots of -1s, if it's taken that that's how we're misunderstanding each other. some people might say it's difficult... if we look at these votes as ways of judging how we can learn from each other then that's very positive 18:28:36 tantek: yeah i'd agree with that assessment. all the feedback we're getting is good because it's helping broaden our understanding 18:28:58 totally agree 18:29:02 ...i don't expect us to use all the user stories to develop the api, but that being said, since each user story seems to be useful to multiple people, i think that means they are worty of continued iteration 18:29:10 ... if not in the first version then in additional versions or extnesions 18:29:16 ...this is all valuable input we're getting 18:29:18 q+ 18:29:28 ...just because stories have a bunch of -1 it doesn't mean we're going to throw it out and never lookat it again 18:29:29 ack AnnB 18:29:42 AnnB: i totally agree, want to point out that in the case of the more "unusual" "obscure" stories, 18:29:54 ... often innovation happens at the edges 18:30:02 Cwebber2 made 1 edit to [[Socialwg/Social API/User stories]] https://www.w3.org/wiki/index.php?diff=82359&oldid=82358 18:30:02 ... that's where different and unusual ideas occur 18:30:07 if downvoting is seen as hostile we cut our range in half for +1 to -1 downt o +1 to 0 18:30:11 I think a lot of the more 'unusual' ones can be generalised, too, and are accommodated anyway 18:30:12 q? 18:30:23 ... i'm loking forward to the discussion on the more unusual suggestions 18:30:50 s/loking /looking / 18:30:51 q? 18:30:52 tantek: since we have agreement on postponing the process of turning the stories into requiremetnts we've reached the end of the ageda 18:31:07 ...everyone is eager to get back to voting i'm guessing 18:31:14 \o/ 18:31:24 keep voting everyone!! 18:31:26 tantek: if there are no objections, would move to close the call and give back the remainder of the hour to continue voting! 18:31:46 Arnaud: one possiblity would be to pick up some user stories that are popular but are some objections, and maybe we can clarify some of them now 18:31:54 tantek: okay that's reasonable 18:32:00 AnnB: do you have ones you want to highlight? 18:32:16 Arnaud: there were some with major numbers of +1 and then a -1 from tantek 18:32:23 ...the very first one, user profile management 18:32:25 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#User_profile_management 18:32:31 +1 i would like to be able to iterate on some of these stories or propose alternate versions 18:33:15 tantek: in having lookde at this, I agreed with most of the user story, but some of the fields used for profile management seemed to be very specific and not necessarily needed or present in the APIs we reviewed 18:33:17 q+ 18:33:25 ...i agree with the general theme but had some specifics i was objecting to 18:33:26 q+ 18:33:28 q+ 18:33:29 ...perhaps evan can clarify? 18:33:34 have to drop, bfn 18:33:36 -bill-looby 18:33:40 q? 18:33:42 My reading of that was that the specific profile data is arbitrary, and those given are just examples 18:33:44 ack eprodrom 18:33:55 me too, rhiaro 18:34:05 eprodrom: hometown - it gets down to what you think the location field on twitter is for 18:34:20 ... it's kind of up in the air. facebook has a way to say this is where i'm from or this is where i live 18:34:31 ... job title and company name we have in linked in 18:34:35 ... those are pretty common 18:34:40 ... job title is pretty common in enterprise networks 18:34:46 ... phone number is in facebook and linkedin, most enterprise networks 18:35:10 ... i've also seen some systems where you can update private data 18:35:21 timbl has joined #social 18:35:27 ... as far as the specifics, i think that would be up to how the profile works and up to the individual APIs we get proposals for 18:35:37 ... whether they use a fixed vocab for the profile or changed by the implementation 18:35:50 ...but the idea that we are able to be able to update muliple parts of the profile is important 18:35:58 +1 updating multiple elements of profile, but not requiring specific fields 18:36:01 tantek: that makes more sense to me especially the last thing you said, updating parts or mnultiple aspects of the profile 18:36:06 s/muliple/multiple/ 18:36:06 ... that I agree with in a +1 way 18:36:18 ...but that feels like some of the aspects may be getting into profile vocab design which i would like to avoid 18:36:32 ... would rather reuse all notion of profile vocab from an existing standard like vcard 4 18:36:40 ... and looked at existing networks while that was devloped 18:36:52 s/devloped/developed/ 18:37:01 +Sandro.a 18:37:02 ... i would +1 the profile management if it mentioned that the fields are used as examples and it's up to the service what field it supports 18:37:22 eprodrom: i think we can get into some interesting fine points 18:37:25 q+ 18:37:30 ... for example if you have a client that tries to update fields that aren't on the server 18:37:45 ... if the client doesn't understand the profile response from the server how should it handle it 18:37:45 -Sandro 18:37:50 ... those are good discussions to have around the user stories 18:37:53 ack? 18:37:54 q? 18:37:55 q? 18:37:58 ack bblfish 18:38:13 bblfish: this shows a little of a confusion between the API and the data format 18:38:20 http://www.w3.org/2000/10/swap/pim/contact# 18:38:23 ... because if you take the data format carefully like JSON LD then it's extensible 18:38:26 look at existing profiles for intersection, rather than union 18:38:31 http://www.w3.org/People/Berners-Lee/card 18:38:34 q+ 18:38:37 ... you could use the contact ontology like timbl does for his profile, but it doesn't have to be part of this WG to describe all the ontologies 18:38:43 opensocial went for union, which meant we ended up with too many fields 18:39:00 ... so i read it that there is no requirement for the WG to specify the ontology, just that the API be able to edit the information as needed 18:39:13 ... i've seen this type of example where people get caught up on the API vs the schema 18:39:21 q? 18:39:24 ack AnnB 18:39:42 AnnB: i think this was largely resolved so far but hasd one concern 18:39:57 ... "well twitter and instagram don't have it so it's unnecessary" seems like a narrow perspective 18:40:16 ... doesn't necessarily mean that the whole world doesn't need it, especially in enterprise it varies significantly 18:40:45 tantek: if something is not ever-present then it's probably not core. it's okay to consider more complex cases, i'm focused on getting out a v1 of the api 18:41:09 ... the extensibility henry described is the kindof thinking i'm hoping goes into the api byt didn't want to assume that 18:41:54 +1 for not defining everything, and helping servers have decent fallbacks instead when they don't understand things 18:42:03 ... i asked for clarification from evan about whether this is specifying specific fields or leaving things a bit more open 18:42:13 ...and then define rules for publishers and consumers handling support for different fields 18:42:21 ... evan is that a reasonable summary? 18:42:26 eprodrom: i think it is up for discussion 18:42:43 +1 for tantek's description of the two approaches - I am for having an API that can work with any data ( though the working group could decide on a minimal yet extensible ontology that all clients should understand ) 18:42:58 ... my feeling is that we want to use some vocabulary in there, i'd probably wnat to use a well-known vocab here to make things easier for implementers 18:43:10 AnnB: this seems like a valuaable discussion, it's foundational to how this goes forward 18:43:30 tantek: to be clear my +0 is not an opposition 18:43:36 s/valuaable/valuable/ 18:43:38 q? 18:43:40 ack harry 18:43:54 harry: we do have a requirement that we will use the IG input as a building point 18:44:24 ... regardless of how big the union/intersection of terms in the API becomes, i would be shocked if we did not have some extensibility mechanism 18:44:28 +1 extensibility 18:44:33 AnnB: that's a good point about the IG but i will need to understand that better 18:45:00 q? 18:45:06 harry: as soon as we get a v1 of teh API that peopel agree on, people will notice "it doesn't quite fit my use case" do we need to create another vocab or format and can send it to teh IG to continue working on 18:45:11 -cwebber2 18:45:18 tantek: i strongly agree with intersection instead of union 18:45:21 phone died, sorry 18:45:22 as long as things are extensible. 18:45:35 AnnB: since i'm not a developer, i'm having a hard time assessing what goes into the API instead of UI or some other mechanism 18:45:43 q+ 18:45:44 ... you who are developers can guide me that way 18:45:49 q? 18:45:59 ... it's too bad Adam got pulled out this week 18:46:19 ?? that discussion of what goes into an API vs UI could go on for hours 18:46:29 ack bblfish 18:46:32 ... i certainly encourage people to discuss that in IRC but not sure it's worth taking time in the telcon 18:46:39 agree .. just pointing out this is a aspect of confusion for me 18:46:43 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#Developing_a_Smart_client 18:46:56 s/a aspect / an aspect / 18:47:03 bblfish: what it's trying to say is most of what's published is data, and the client uses the data to create the user interface 18:47:19 ... and then the API is how you change the data, how you create new data, that's my way of seeing the three layers 18:47:23 thanks Henry 18:47:24 ... API, data and user interface 18:47:25 q? 18:47:31 tantek: okay 18:47:46 ... anyone else want to bring up any questions? 18:47:59 https://www.w3.org/wiki/Socialwg/Social_API/User_stories#User_posts_a_note_with_embedded_media 18:48:04 ... use posts a note with embedded media 18:48:05 s/pulled out this week/pulled out this week, since he's my local developer 'explainer'/ 18:48:37 tantek: there is a challenge ... it's not clear whether video embedding is done simply via a URL or where it's something where you upload a video 18:48:54 ... based on the two interpretations i have completely opposite votes 18:48:59 q+ 18:49:11 ... simply pasting a URL, having auto-embedding is a pretty common feature, i've even implemented it on my site 18:49:19 In my experience video uploading comes with a ton of extra baggage, or at least tends to require additional metadata 18:49:20 ... but a -1 for making video uploads a core part of the api 18:49:31 really? 18:49:36 ... so are jessica or christopher here to clarify the intent? 18:49:40 rhiaro: ever had to maintain a dedicated ffmpeg server ;) 18:49:44 ? 18:49:47 hold on 18:49:48 q? 18:49:53 I dropped off the call but I have to reconnect 18:49:53 ack eprodrom 18:49:58