15:02:08 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #dpub
15:02:08 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-dpub-irc
15:02:10 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
15:02:10 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #dpub
15:02:12 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be dpub
15:02:12 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 58 minutes
15:02:13 <trackbot> Meeting: Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
15:02:13 <trackbot> Date: 23 February 2015
15:07:36 <ivan> Chair: Tzviya
15:07:57 <ivan> Agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/54E70DB1.5050600@gmail.com
15:08:22 <ivan> Regrets: TimCole, AlanS, azaroth, vlad
15:45:25 <dauwhe> dauwhe has joined #dpub
15:49:51 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
15:51:38 <mgylling> mgylling has joined #dpub
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15:57:39 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has now started
15:57:46 <Zakim> + +1.408.979.aaaa
15:57:57 <ivan> zakim, dial ivan-voip
15:57:57 <Zakim> ok, ivan; the call is being made
15:57:58 <Zakim> +Ivan
15:58:02 <brady_duga> brady_duga has joined #dpub
15:58:08 <clapierre> Zakim, aaaa is me
15:58:08 <Zakim> +clapierre; got it
15:58:27 <laudrain> laudrain has joined #dpub
15:58:29 <Zakim> + +1.217.300.aabb
15:58:31 <philm> philm has joined #dpub
15:58:35 <pkra> pkra has joined #dpub
15:58:36 <phil_m> phil_m has joined #dpub
15:58:37 <tzviya> tzviya has joined #dpub
15:59:02 <Zakim> +Tzviya
15:59:30 <Zakim> +philm
15:59:38 <Zakim> + +1.646.336.aacc
15:59:55 <dkaplan3> dkaplan3 has joined #dpub
15:59:58 <Zakim> +duga
16:00:19 <Julie_Morris> Julie_Morris has joined #dpub
16:00:28 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:00:45 <Zakim> + +1.617.426.aadd
16:00:52 <Zakim> +pkra
16:00:59 <dkaplan3> zakim, aadd is me
16:00:59 <Zakim> +dkaplan3; got it
16:01:09 <Zakim> +Karen_Myers
16:01:11 <HeatherF> HeatherF has joined #dpub
16:01:20 <Zakim> +Markus
16:01:49 <tzviya> zakim. aacc is Julie_Morris
16:01:51 <ivan> zakim, aacc is julie
16:01:51 <Zakim> +julie; got it
16:01:54 <ivan> zakim, who is here?
16:01:54 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, Ivan, +1.217.300.aabb, Tzviya, philm, julie, duga, dauwhe, dkaplan3, pkra, Karen_Myers, Markus
16:01:56 <Zakim> On IRC I see HeatherF, Julie_Morris, dkaplan3, tzviya, phil_m, pkra, philm, laudrain, brady_duga, astein, mgylling, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, liam, rego, iank,
16:01:56 <Zakim> ... mihnea_____, plinss, Karen, astearns, trackbot
16:02:07 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:11 <HeatherF> zakim, IPcaller is me
16:02:12 <Zakim> +HeatherF; got it
16:02:22 <Zakim> +Luc
16:02:28 <Bill_Kasdorf> Bill_Kasdorf has joined #dpub
16:02:32 <ivan> zakim, aabb is astein
16:02:32 <Zakim> +astein; got it
16:02:57 <Zakim> +Bill_Kasdorf
16:02:57 <bjdmeest> bjdmeest has joined #dpub
16:03:32 <Zakim> +Ruben
16:03:36 <bjdmeest> zakim, Ruben is me
16:03:36 <Zakim> +bjdmeest; got it
16:03:44 <mgylling> scribenick mgylling
16:03:45 <bjdmeest> Present+ Ben_De_Meester
16:03:50 <mgarrish> mgarrish has joined #dpub
16:03:53 <ivan> scribenick: mgylling
16:04:19 <tzviya> agenda: http://www.w3.org/mid/54E70DB1.5050600@gmail.com
16:04:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:04:47 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub
16:05:03 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is mgylling
16:05:03 <Zakim> +mgylling; got it
16:05:08 <Zakim> +pbelfanti
16:05:19 <ivan> zakim, IPcaller is mgarrish
16:05:19 <Zakim> sorry, ivan, I do not recognize a party named 'IPcaller'
16:05:22 <Zakim> + +1.512.445.aaee
16:05:29 <ivan> zakim, mgylling is mgarrish
16:05:29 <Zakim> +mgarrish; got it
16:05:45 <mgylling> zakim, scribe?
16:05:45 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mgylling.
16:05:52 <mgylling> zakim, who scribes?
16:05:52 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, mgylling.
16:05:57 <ivan> zakim, aaee is Susann_Keohane
16:05:57 <Zakim> +Susann_Keohane; got it
16:06:01 <mgylling> scribenick mgylling
16:06:22 <ivan> scribenick: mgylling
16:06:36 <mgylling> topic: last weeks minutes
16:06:40 <tzviya> http://www.w3.org/2015/02/09-dpub-minutes.html
16:06:48 <pbelfanti_> pbelfanti_ has joined #dpub
16:06:52 <mgylling> tzviya: last weeks minutes approved?
16:06:57 <mgylling> … approved.
16:07:09 <mgylling> topic: identifiers TF first steps
16:07:27 <Zakim> +Thierry
16:07:59 <tzviya> identification: https://github.com/w3c/epubweb/wiki/Identification
16:08:06 <mgylling> Bill_Kasdorf: there are really two aspects: publication identifiers and fragment identifiers, Ivan has a starting point on wiki, as well as in the notes on packaging wiki page
16:08:33 <mgylling> … markus suggested started with developing functional requirements for fragments, which is probably a good start
16:09:22 <mgylling> … think that will be mostly a technical discussion after use cases are provided, w3c anno group is an important party here
16:09:40 <mgylling> … publication identifier issue initially appears to be a total swamp
16:10:23 <mgylling> … registries dont necessarily point to an online document or an epub; DOI as an example can point to anything although you can use DOI for this purpose
16:10:41 <mgylling> … news is different because they have a firehose [???]
16:11:04 <mgylling> … talking about all those identifiers, we need to accomodate any kind of publication
16:11:11 <tzviya> s/???/of identifiers generated daily
16:11:24 <mgylling> … it may be that those IDs used today maybe arent relevant to CID
16:11:31 <tzviya> q?
16:11:33 <Bert> Bert has joined #dpub
16:11:57 <ivan> q+
16:11:59 <mgylling> … is this actually a metadata TF activity, or a new TF? Do we need to start over and recruit people from the beginning?
16:12:14 <Zakim> +[Sophia]
16:12:29 <mgylling> tzviya: from my POV, it doesnt matter what we call the TF
16:12:46 <tmichel> tmichel has joined #dpub
16:12:48 <mgylling> … looked at Wileys journals, found 5 different ways to do identifiers
16:12:52 <tzviya> q?
16:13:02 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:13:12 <mgylling> … we need to come to consensus about our recommendation, use cases and business incentives [???]
16:13:35 <tzviya> s/business incentives/ business requirements
16:13:45 <mgylling> ivan: dont care about the name of the task force either, but there is an intersection of people
16:13:56 <tzviya> q?
16:14:00 <mgylling> … requires a certain experience and mindset, and that’s all what really counts for me
16:14:24 <mgylling> Bill_Kasdorf: we will need to recruit additional expertise
16:14:51 <mgylling> tzviya: we need volunteers to work on this: volunteer now, contact BillK or add your name to the TF page
16:15:58 <mgylling> Bill_Kasdorf: please sign up again on new wiki page
16:16:26 <tzviya> action Thierry create new wiki for identifiers TF
16:16:26 <trackbot> Created ACTION-47 - Create new wiki for identifiers tf [on Thierry Michel - due 2015-03-02].
16:17:14 <mgylling> topic: overview of packaging spec
16:17:24 <ivan> http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
16:17:27 <tmichel> zakim, who is here?
16:17:27 <Zakim> On the phone I see clapierre, Ivan, astein, Tzviya, philm, julie, duga, dauwhe, dkaplan3, pkra, Karen_Myers, Markus, HeatherF, Luc, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, mgarrish, pbelfanti,
16:17:31 <Zakim> ... Susann_Keohane, Thierry, Bert
16:17:31 <Zakim> On IRC I see tmichel, Bert, pbelfanti_, Susann_Keohane, mgarrish, bjdmeest, Bill_Kasdorf, HeatherF, Julie_Morris, dkaplan3, tzviya, phil_m, pkra, philm, laudrain, brady_duga,
16:17:31 <Zakim> ... astein, mgylling, clapierre, dauwhe, Zakim, RRSAgent, ivan, liam, rego, iank, mihnea_____, plinss, Karen, astearns, trackbot
16:17:51 <mgylling> ivan: this is an editors note that evolves
16:18:12 <mgylling> … for the time being Jeni has left the editors role to Yves Lafont
16:18:39 <mgylling> … if we find somebody in this group or around us that is interested in being co-editor, we would be thrilled
16:19:17 <mgylling> … the hope is that packaging in general might eventually become browser-native, of course not sure that it will happen, but we know that some browser vendors are interested in it
16:19:34 <ivan> https://github.com/w3c/epubweb/wiki/Notes-on-Packaging
16:19:36 <mgylling> … might become the packaging format for EPUB-WEB
16:19:39 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epubweb/wiki/Notes-on-Packaging
16:20:37 <mgylling> … three important parts: 1)packaging itself (how to combine files in a file), 2)the fragment identifier specification, although its not a main section in the doc and 3)link relationship which is defined
16:21:21 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:21:31 <mgylling> … packaging is multipart mime, and [http mumbo jumbo with headers]
16:21:34 <Zakim> + +1.408.896.aaff
16:21:41 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #DPUB
16:21:41 <clapierre> zakim, aaff is me
16:21:42 <Zakim> +clapierre; got it
16:21:48 <mgylling> … each part can be compressed individually
16:22:23 <mgylling> … advantage that I see from our POV is that in fact a package like this is really a small website which is put in one place, reinforced by http
16:22:43 <mgylling> … brings it even closer to webiness (multipart mime vs zip)
16:23:11 <mgylling> … for example, metadata via http headers, can be used for book purposes
16:23:19 <Zakim> +MikeMiller
16:23:24 <Bert> s/Lafont/Lafon/
16:23:36 <mgylling> … e.g. link header to create sequence of document
16:23:44 <mgylling> s/document/documents
16:24:23 <mgylling> … one other aspect is that it is possible to do content negotiation for e.g. language
16:25:48 <mgylling> … link relationship: defines a new type of linkage for packages for clients
16:26:20 <Bill_Kasdorf> q+
16:26:24 <mgylling> … we might imagine a scenario with a lending page that via the link mechanism bootstraps getting the package
16:26:52 <mgylling> … fragment identifier: tries to solve how to get into the fragment of a document that is part of the package
16:27:51 <AH_Miller> AH_Miller has joined #DPUB
16:28:21 <mgylling> … is a three-step approach: 1) find a number of candidate URIs from within the package 2) filter 3)traditional fragment as per media type of filter result
16:28:30 <tzviya> q?
16:28:49 <mgylling> … dont know whether it covers all that we need, this is one thing we need to look at
16:29:13 <mgylling> … dave cramer posted a mail
16:29:17 <ivan> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2015Feb/att-0007/mobydick.pack.zip
16:30:24 <tzviya> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:30:29 <ivan> ack Bill_Kasdorf
16:31:04 <mgylling> Bill_Kasdorf: do resources need to know what packages they belong to?
16:31:30 <mgylling> ivan: all resources are copied into the package
16:31:58 <mgylling> … http header can contain expiration rules
16:32:02 <Zakim> -Susann_Keohane
16:32:42 <tzviya> q?
16:32:53 <ivan> q?
16:33:20 <mgylling> … you can reconstruct the original URI of a resource on the web using expiration
16:34:14 <mgylling> ivan: differences vis-a-vis zip: many of concepts rely on web approaches, relies on tech and tools that are used on the web, so if the goal is to bring the document world closer to the web, that pays off
16:35:09 <mgylling> … http header fields which are pretty powerful, and those are evolving, new headers, new header subinfo, this means that by inheritance we get http evolution in the package, we dont have to reinvent
16:35:20 <mgylling> … for example the spine may become unnecessary
16:35:29 <Bert> (Note that the document itself lists three advantages over zip: streamable, easier to create *well*, more metadata.)
16:35:36 <brady_duga> q+
16:35:50 <mgylling> tzviya: the document also points out that zip is hard to create well, and has limited metadata
16:35:56 <tzviya> ack brady_duga
16:36:07 <mgylling> ivan: this is much better suited for streaming than zip
16:38:01 <mgylling> brady_duga: the packaging spec lists zip drawbacks, I think the metadata is the strongest. The comment that they are hard to create to is strange: there are tools to create zips but none to create these packages, also streamability can be done easily by subsetting zip.
16:38:17 <ivan> q+
16:38:20 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:39:07 <mgylling> ivan: a bit sidetracking: I was at another conference in january, a presentation that showed that you can build up complicated things [???] by using http headers instead of RDF et.al.
16:40:21 <mgylling> brady_duga: the intent is that you still have a full html file with references as usual, more of a cache use case?
16:40:58 <mgylling> ivan: facilitating cache is clearly one use case, but downloading a whole web application is closer to our book use case
16:41:32 <mgylling> … if epub-web goes that way, epub-web would define additional definitions on top (restrictions or requirements)
16:42:02 <Zakim> -duga
16:42:39 <brady_duga> Sorry, lost my cell signal
16:42:41 <tzviya> q?
16:42:43 <mgylling> tzviya: keep in mind that publications go beyond traditional books (e.g. article+data sets)
16:43:22 <mgylling> tzviya: last point is to consider whether we want to comment on this spec and what we would need to layer on top
16:44:09 <Zakim> +duga
16:45:25 <mgylling> topic: webapps manifest
16:45:40 <tzviya> https://github.com/w3c/epubweb/wiki/Notes-on-Manifest-for-Web-Apps
16:46:13 <mgylling> tzviya: these are just notes, we’ve been asked to provide comments by March 5
16:47:10 <mgylling> tzviya: points to pay attention to: method for signalling installability, defines a URL for navigation scope, interesting to see how that interplays with packaging spec
16:47:24 <mgylling> … impacts deep linking
16:47:54 <ivan> q+
16:48:46 <mgylling> … also display mode: four specfied. And a fallback chain. Orientation specifiable for example.
16:50:03 <mgylling> … members of the manifest: details on what can be included. Because this is deveoped for apps, deals a lot with install issues. But interesting for us is the scope, display and orientation needs to be figured out if it is sufficient
16:50:26 <tzviya> q?
16:50:30 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:51:05 <mgylling> ivan: two things: question: is the manifest file open in the sense that we can add additional terms, or is it closed?
16:51:29 <mgylling> tzviya: seems to be closed, but have the request for comments
16:51:34 <dauwhe> q+
16:52:02 <mgylling> ivan: scope: I didnt talk about that but packaging document also has scope, not sure how these two meet
16:52:18 <mgylling> … you can add a scope hint
16:52:33 <tzviya> ack dauwhe
16:53:09 <mgylling> dauwhe: title and stuff, by first reaction to this is that is only miminal data for apps (icon, title phrase, start)
16:53:27 <mgylling> dauwhe: I dont think we want to turn this into the book metadata space
16:53:30 <mgylling> +1
16:53:41 <ivan> q+
16:53:42 <mgylling> … but dont see the need for publication metadata in here
16:53:44 <tzviya> ack ivan
16:54:49 <mgylling> ivan: +1 from me too, maybe the manifest should be open so that various application areas can add additional terms
16:55:02 <Susann_Keohane> Susann_Keohane has joined #dpub
16:55:15 <mgylling> … its not realistic for the webapps wg to provide metadata fields for everybodys needs
16:55:44 <tzviya> q?
16:55:59 <mgylling> dauwhe: not even sure this is the appropriate place
16:56:33 <mgylling> tzviya: we really need to get moving on this
16:56:43 <tzviya> streampub
16:56:47 <mgylling> … also a contest for remaning epub-web
16:57:15 <mgylling> topic: F2F
16:57:25 <tzviya> https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/May_2015_F2F_Logistics_and_Details
16:57:28 <mgylling> tzviya: book your hotel soon!
16:57:36 <Zakim> -pbelfanti
16:58:32 <tzviya> q?
16:59:40 <Zakim> -mgarrish
16:59:44 <Zakim> -HeatherF
16:59:45 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
16:59:45 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
16:59:45 <Zakim> -dauwhe
16:59:46 <Zakim> -MikeMiller
16:59:47 <Zakim> -julie
16:59:48 <Zakim> -Karen_Myers
16:59:49 <Zakim> -duga
16:59:49 <Zakim> -Luc
16:59:50 <Zakim> -philm
16:59:50 <Zakim> -astein
16:59:52 <Zakim> -Tzviya
16:59:52 <Zakim> -Bill_Kasdorf
16:59:52 <Zakim> -pkra
16:59:52 <Zakim> -Markus
16:59:53 <Zakim> -bjdmeest
16:59:53 <Zakim> -clapierre
16:59:54 <Zakim> -Ivan
16:59:54 <Zakim> -Bert
17:03:03 <tmichel> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:03:03 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/23-dpub-minutes.html tmichel
17:05:18 <Zakim> -dkaplan3
17:10:18 <Zakim> disconnecting the lone participant, Thierry, in DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM
17:10:19 <Zakim> DPUB_DPUBIG()11:00AM has ended
17:10:19 <Zakim> Attendees were +1.408.979.aaaa, Ivan, clapierre, +1.217.300.aabb, Tzviya, philm, +1.646.336.aacc, duga, dauwhe, +1.617.426.aadd, pkra, dkaplan3, Karen_Myers, Markus, julie,
17:10:20 <Zakim> ... HeatherF, Luc, astein, Bill_Kasdorf, bjdmeest, pbelfanti, +1.512.445.aaee, mgarrish, Susann_Keohane, Thierry, Bert, +1.408.896.aaff, MikeMiller
18:12:42 <clapierre> clapierre has joined #DPUB
18:26:56 <liam> darn, had the wrong week for that meeting :(
18:39:12 <clapierre1> clapierre1 has joined #DPUB
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20:15:54 <Bert> Bert has left #dpub
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