16:00:47 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #touchevents
16:00:47 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-touchevents-irc
16:00:54 <rbyers> zakim, this will be RWC_PEWG
16:00:54 <Zakim> ok, rbyers, I see RWC_PEWG()11:00AM already started
16:01:05 <Zakim> +??P19
16:01:11 <Zakim> +Matt_Brubeck
16:01:12 <jrossi2> jrossi2 has joined #touchevents
16:01:27 <rbyers> Zakim, P19 is Chrome_Team
16:01:27 <Zakim> sorry, rbyers, I do not recognize a party named 'P19'
16:01:31 <rbyers> Zakim, ??P19 is Chrome_Team
16:01:31 <Zakim> +Chrome_Team; got it
16:01:34 <patrick_h_lauke> i'm in...though i'm not sure if zakim knows
16:01:45 <rbyers> Meeting: Touch Events Community Group
16:01:49 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:01:56 <jrossi2> Zakim, Microsoft.a is jrossi2
16:01:56 <Zakim> +jrossi2; got it
16:01:59 <rbyers> Chair: Rick_Byers
16:02:03 <rbyers> Scribe: Tim_Dresser
16:02:08 <rbyers> scribenick: tdresser
16:02:33 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is here?
16:02:33 <Zakim> On the phone I see [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, +44.797.663.aaaa, Chrome_Team, Matt_Brubeck, jrossi2
16:02:35 <Zakim> On IRC I see jrossi2, RRSAgent, Zakim, tdresser, patrick_h_lauke, smaug, scott_gonzalez, shepazu, mustaq, mbrubeck, rbyers
16:02:39 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:02:43 <patrick_h_lauke> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:43 <Zakim> +patrick_h_lauke; got it
16:02:48 <smaug> oh
16:02:52 <Zakim> mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: Chrome_Team (5%)
16:02:53 <rbyers> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Feb/0021.html
16:03:18 <teddin> teddin has joined #touchevents
16:03:19 <Zakim> +[Microsoft.a]
16:03:52 <smaug> hmm,what is the conf code
16:04:03 <rbyers> smaug: 7394
16:04:08 <asir> asir has joined #touchevents
16:04:38 <asir> Asir Selvasingh
16:04:41 <teddin> Ted Dinklocker
16:04:47 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:03 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:05:03 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:05:13 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:05:13 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:05:33 <rbyers> Present: Rick_Byers, Jacob_Rossi, Asir_Selvasingh, Ted_Dinklocker, Patrick_Lauke, Olli_Pettay, Mustaq_Ahmed, Tim_Dresser, Scott_Gonazlez, Matt_Brubeck
16:08:52 <mbrubeck> Zakim, who is making noise?
16:09:02 <Zakim> mbrubeck, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: [Microsoft.a] (51%)
16:13:31 <rbyers> Topic: mosueenter, mouseleave and touch compat/interop
16:13:36 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Feb/0021.html
16:13:52 <tdresser> s/mosueenter/mouseenter
16:14:32 <tdresser> rbyers: If Chrome fixes this bug, will this break things? jrossi2, do you have some data indicating how many people we'd break?
16:14:44 <tdresser> jrossi2: That would be our preferred path forward.
16:15:07 <tdresser> jrossi2: We only hit a couple sites that broke, but there was a popular stackoverflow post that suggested the pattern that breaks.
16:15:17 <tdresser> jrossi2: It's hard to measure.
16:16:01 <tdresser> jrossi2: Netflix is also broken in Chrome (as well as IE), we'll reach out to them on that.
16:16:32 <tdresser> jrossi2: We'll hold off on firing mouseenter and mouseleave, Chrome can go ahead, it should be reasonably low risk.
16:16:59 <tdresser> rbyers: What should web devs do so that would work with all browsers?
16:17:18 <tdresser> jrossi2: The answer depends on whether or not we implement "firedFromTouch."
16:18:09 <tdresser> rbyers: Yeah, firedFromTouch is the clean solution.
16:18:15 <tdresser> rbyers: We'll try to fix that bug.
16:19:11 <tdresser> rbyers: It should be easy to fix - we'll aim for Chrome's M43, and get some data within 6 weeks.
16:19:44 <tdresser> jrossi2: We should have a build out soon that will let you turn on touch events in desktop, so you can test interop.
16:19:55 <tdresser> mbrubeck: I'll file the corresponding gecko bug.
16:19:55 <patrick_h_lauke> as i still got a bit lost with the bug description...is this basically the problem that: Safari magically stops firing the final click if there was a "change" to the page, effectively?
16:20:06 <tdresser> mbrubeck: Do we need spec errata?
16:20:44 <tdresser> jrossi2: I'd like to see errata, a note would be fine.
16:20:44 <patrick_h_lauke> and that chrome/IE/etc cannot replicate the heuristic because of...the dreaded P word
16:20:54 <patrick_h_lauke> and instead we'll not fire mouseenter/mouseleave instead?
16:21:09 <tdresser> rbyers: Yeah we should add a note.
16:21:16 <mbrubeck> patrick_h_lauke: Not sure if there are IP barriers to implementing the heuristic
16:21:28 <mbrubeck> patrick_h_lauke: But there are definitely lack-of-spec/documentation issues
16:21:37 <mbrubeck> patrick_h_lauke: And we don't know if Safari's behavior will change again in the future
16:21:46 <patrick_h_lauke> http://patrickhlauke.github.io/touch/tests/results/
16:22:46 <tdresser> rbyers: Chrome bug is that we've never sent mouseenter or mouseleave for touch.
16:22:51 <patrick_h_lauke> gotcha
16:23:03 <tdresser> rbyers: We're going to break people who have depended on this.
16:23:31 <tdresser> jrossi2: I don't think we want to specify any heuristic behavior here.
16:23:40 <mbrubeck> I agree.
16:23:48 <patrick_h_lauke> +1 i don't want to rely on heuristics, even if documented
16:24:44 <rbyers> Safari code for hover feature is here: https://trac.webkit.org/browser/trunk/Source/WebKit2/WebProcess/WebPage/ios/WebPageIOS.mm#L433
16:24:55 <patrick_h_lauke> rbyers if you could CC me on the bug for your proposed solution around it (assume it's "fire mouseenter?") that'd be cool
16:26:39 <smaug> (sounds really horrible)
16:26:47 <tdresser> rbyers: A brief summary - during a style recalc, if some element changed from being hidden to being shown, they consider that to be a content observable change. If there was a content observable change, they suppress the click event.
16:27:09 <tdresser> rbyers: It's complicated, we need a clear api for it.
16:27:40 <tdresser> rbyers: There are races in their implementation.
16:28:32 <rbyers> Topic: Identifying mouse events derived from touch
16:28:44 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0078.html
16:28:53 <patrick_h_lauke> (incidentally, iOS8 changed the "detect changes" algo which forced me to update my tests... https://github.com/patrickhlauke/touch/commit/27a44597e389aca75472c23d00490682c2394e98 )
16:29:01 <tdresser> rbyers: When we last talked about this, we prefered the "firedFrom" design.
16:29:15 <smaug> s/DOM Events/DOM/  spec
16:29:23 <patrick_h_lauke> (as before innerHTML wasn't somehow counted as a "change" that stopped the event sequence)
16:29:27 <tdresser> rbyers: We got a bunch of objections from Anne, editor of the DOM event spec, saying it's fuzzy and not defined clearly enough.
16:29:46 <jrossi2> pointerType?
16:29:47 <tdresser> s/DOM event/DOM
16:30:23 <tdresser> rbyers: For this problem, we don't want to know if it came from a touch device, we want to know if it fired touch events.
16:30:51 <tdresser> rbyers: We could have a sourceDevice per event, which currently only contains a bit indicating if the device can fired touch events.
16:31:15 <tdresser> rbyers: We'll want an input device API for other reasons too, so this feels a bit cleaner.
16:31:21 <tdresser> rbyers: Any feedback?
16:31:37 <tdresser> jrossi2: How is this different from pointerType?
16:32:08 <tdresser> jrossi2: We could use the same api for touch events and pointer events, which would be convenient.
16:32:43 <tdresser> rbyers: I think aligning them makes sense, but I don't think pointerType is rich enough.
16:33:10 <tdresser> rbyers: For example, a stylus on android needs to indicate that it fires touch events, but the pointerType should be "stylus".
16:33:22 <mbrubeck> event.sourceDevice.pointerType, event.sourceDevice.maxTouchPoints
16:33:27 <tdresser> rbyers: pointerType could be an attribute of the source device.
16:33:58 <tdresser> jrossi2: Isn't this the same thing as pointerType == "touch"?
16:34:23 <tdresser> rbyers: Not on IE desktop, because pointerType would be touch even though no touch event was fired.
16:34:28 <tdresser> jrossi2: We're changing IE behavior.
16:35:00 <tdresser> rbyers: But all Android browsers fire touch events for all input devices (like stylus and mouse).
16:35:50 <tdresser> jrossi2: This is similar to how the Windows "messageForPointer" structure works. We pass a bunch of information about the input device.
16:36:12 <tdresser> rbyers: In PEWG, we had a bunch of discussion about whether or not pointerType is adequate.
16:37:49 <tdresser> rbyers: We should put pointerGranularity, and hoverCapable etc in the sourceDevice. Developers should never have to infer the device capabilities based on the device type.
16:39:12 <tdresser> jrossi2: Some browser vendors believe that all input devices should be handled uniquely, and would disagree with this.
16:39:40 <patrick_h_lauke> some browser vendors also don't have any multimodal/multi-input devices...so their view is a bit blinkered
16:40:31 <tdresser> rbyers: If we think the sourceDevice API gives us what we need, and we think it's a good idea for the web in general, we should go in that direction.
16:41:08 <tdresser> ??: I think we will need a source device object. We'll need to be aware of potential fingerprinting issues.
16:41:17 <rbyers> s/??/smaug/
16:41:27 <tdresser> jrossi2: One nice thing about events is that they're scoped more tightly.
16:41:47 <tdresser> rbyers: At this point we don't want to worry about enumerating all input devices etc.
16:41:47 <patrick_h_lauke> as we mentioned CSS media features...one of the snags with granularity etc is that having a single property/feature breaks apart in multi-input scenarios, and you have to settle on "lowest common denominator" which then is less useful. so if we are thinking of doing something similar, it should definitely be input-specific
16:42:24 <rbyers> https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1-ZUtS3knhJP4RbWC74fUZbNp6cbytG6Wen7hewdCtdo/edit#heading=h.rbcct8al2kop
16:42:37 <tdresser> jrossi2: Do you have any IDL written for this?
16:43:43 <tdresser> rbyers: On the list, people wanted feedback on the long term plans for this API.
16:44:07 <tdresser> jrossi2: I'll run this by some folks on our side.
16:44:46 <tdresser> jrossi2: It's pretty low risk. Worst scenario you end up with a property which is nested unnecessarily, which isn't too bad.
16:45:04 <tdresser> rbyers: We haven't thought about equality comparisons, which we'll have to figure out.
16:45:21 <tdresser> rbyers: Does touchevent.sourceDevice == touchevent2.sourceDevice?
16:45:28 <tdresser> rbyers: We can get by with a singleton for now.
16:45:53 <tdresser> rbyers: We may want to have a different sourceDevice per touch screen.
16:46:42 <tdresser> rbyers: If two fingers change simultaneously on two different targets, there will be two different events, with two different source devices.
16:46:42 <teddin> Need to sign off. Looking forward to working with the grouo.
16:46:55 <tdresser> jrossi2: Does this go on UIEvent, or is it per touch?
16:47:14 <Zakim> -[Microsoft]
16:47:50 <tdresser> jrossi2: That's a good reason to sketch out the future of this, to help us decide if there could be per-touch sourceDevices.
16:48:23 <tdresser> rbyers: The source device of the event corresponds to all of the changed touches, not all of the touches.
16:49:02 <tdresser> jrossi2: Consider a leap motion laptop, you could have two input devices firing touchevents which both have changedTouches on the same element, but with different source devices.
16:49:11 <tdresser> jrossi2: One's on the screen, and one is in the air.
16:49:25 <patrick_h_lauke> two touchscreens, browser window large enough to span both, event listeners on body...
16:49:36 <tdresser> rbyers: If you guys think it's a promising avenue, I'll whip up a design sketch.
16:50:41 <tdresser> jrossi2: A more realistic version of my scenario: If we use touch events for pen, this could definitely happen.
16:51:04 <tdresser> rbyers: Either we'd have to allow a source device per touch, or you'd have to send a separate event per sourceDevice.
16:51:22 <tdresser> jrossi2: There might be some compatability issues there.
16:51:57 <tdresser> rbyers: They share the same touches and targettouches arrays, but changedTouches is different.
16:52:10 <tdresser> rbyers: We probably already never coalesce input events across devices.
16:52:41 <tdresser> rbyers: I'll follow up on this on the thread.
16:53:04 <rbyers> Topic: Feedback on (or approval to merge) PR
16:53:04 <rbyers> https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/3
16:53:36 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: There are two outstanding issues on my pull request.
16:53:53 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: Just want to figure out if we should land this.
16:54:11 <patrick_h_lauke> https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/3#discussion_r24487209
16:54:13 <rbyers> s/the thread/the www-dom thread/
16:55:22 <tdresser> rbyers: In PEWG, we never mentioned anything that sounded like a gesture.
16:56:07 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: I don't want to use "click," because we aren't referring to a click event.
16:56:45 <tdresser> rbyers: We could use "activate."
16:57:40 <patrick_h_lauke> "The activation of an element (e.g., in some implementations, a tap)..."
16:58:21 <tdresser> jrossi2: As we start to explore other input devices, activation may be a better word than tap.
16:58:37 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: I'll update the pull request.
16:58:53 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: I was probably overly eager with removing line breaks.
16:58:54 <patrick_h_lauke> https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/3#discussion-diff-24468273
16:59:14 <tdresser> rbyers: I found it hard to review on github, because of the way diffs are displayed.
16:59:36 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: The pointer events spec appeared to be using long lines.
17:00:05 <scott_gonzalez> I have to drop off to join another call.
17:00:07 <tdresser> rbyers: I don't have a strong preference, but we shouldn't switch back and forth more than necessary.
17:00:20 <Zakim> -Scott_Gonzalez
17:00:58 <tdresser> mbrubeck: I don't think we need to stick with what pointer events did.
17:01:55 <tdresser> rbyers: There's benefit for being consistent with pointer events, but it's also nice to be able to use the github diff tool.
17:02:28 <tdresser> rbyers: I don't care, but if we want to be able to send diffs around, short lines would be more convinent.
17:02:31 <mbrubeck> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/rev/be35b766b5ef
17:02:39 <tdresser> mbrubeck: I have a slight preference for short lines, because of diffs.
17:03:08 <mbrubeck> https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/rev/5c770b2dd992
17:03:52 <tdresser> rbyers: I can undo the line ending changes.
17:04:18 <tdresser> patrick_h_lauke: I need to edit it anyways, so I'll give it a try.
17:04:30 <rbyers> Topic: AOB
17:04:42 <patrick_h_lauke> heh
17:05:01 <rbyers> I propose we meet in 2 weeks
17:05:06 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:05:06 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow created 06AFBarstow-patch-1 (+1 new commit): 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/9e536c68d37f
17:05:06 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06AFBarstow-patch-1 149e536c6 15Arthur Barstow: Minor boilerplate updates...
17:05:06 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:05:11 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:05:11 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow opened pull request #7: Minor boilerplate updates (06v1-errata...06AFBarstow-patch-1) 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/7
17:05:11 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:05:52 <Zakim> -[Microsoft.a]
17:05:53 <Zakim> -patrick_h_lauke
17:05:53 <Zakim> -Chrome_Team
17:05:54 <Zakim> -jrossi2
17:05:56 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
17:06:10 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
17:06:11 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
17:06:11 <Zakim> Attendees were [Microsoft], Scott_Gonzalez, +44.797.663.aaaa, Matt_Brubeck, Chrome_Team, jrossi2, patrick_h_lauke, Olli_Pettay
17:12:08 <artb> artb has joined #touchevents
17:15:11 <artb> oh dear, I think https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/7 is on the master branch and it should be on the v1-errata branch :-(
17:15:47 <artb> btw, sorry I missed today's call (winter vacation week for schools in Mass)
17:21:43 <patrick_h_lauke> hmmm...i probably made this worse now (re line breaks etc)
17:22:44 <patrick_h_lauke> serves me right for being an idiot and doing two things in the same commit (changing line lengths and more consistent use of <code>)
17:22:48 <patrick_h_lauke> https://github.com/patrickhlauke/touch-events/commit/fd843c2efa3197816343e7c10803225070dd059d
17:23:57 <patrick_h_lauke> i'll see if i can salvage it (may have to try and split out the <code> additions)...
17:25:47 <artb> I suspect the easiest thing for me to do is to delete PR-7 and just submit another PR for the v1-errata branch. rbyers, mbrubeck, all, should I do that?
17:26:40 <mbrubeck> artb: yeah, sounds right
17:35:44 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:35:44 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow created 06AFBarstow-patch-2 (+1 new commit): 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/1ab9a5d6e4eb
17:35:44 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06AFBarstow-patch-2 141ab9a5d 15Arthur Barstow: Minor boilerplate updates...
17:35:44 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:35:49 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:35:49 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow opened pull request #8: Minor boilerplate updates (06v1-errata...06AFBarstow-patch-2) 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/8
17:35:49 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:59:25 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:59:25 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15RByers closed pull request #8: Minor boilerplate updates (06v1-errata...06AFBarstow-patch-2) 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/8
17:59:25 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:59:26 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
17:59:26 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15RByers pushed 1 new commit to 06v1-errata: 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/d181c34d389b9dd1eca36bc7e07aad0f587d709a
17:59:26 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 14d181c34 15Rick Byers: Merge pull request #8 from w3c/AFBarstow-patch-2...
17:59:26 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
17:59:41 <patrick_h_lauke> i'll redo/rebase my PR later tonight...
17:59:46 <patrick_h_lauke> got a plan of action ;)
18:00:08 <rbyers> patrick_h_lauke: Great, thanks!
18:08:37 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
18:08:37 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow pushed 1 new commit to 06v1-errata: 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/1424440f26240128d8d49014aeb481478e5083c7
18:08:37 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 141424440 15Arthur Barstow: Appears extraCSS is needed...
18:08:37 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
18:08:47 <tdresser> tdresser has joined #touchevents
18:09:03 <Zakim> Zakim has left #touchevents
18:13:45 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
18:13:45 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow pushed 1 new commit to 06v1-errata: 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/0e6319630e4444d8c3cc60fdf5642af81fe9257f
18:13:45 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 140e63196 15Arthur Barstow: Fix syntax error...
18:13:45 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
18:29:45 <teddin> teddin has joined #touchevents
18:29:57 <teddin> teddin has left #touchevents
18:57:52 <tdresser> tdresser has joined #touchevents
21:04:58 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
21:04:58 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15AFBarstow pushed 1 new commit to 06v1-errata: 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/commit/1c320f119caef0f000a926d0e0718ab66e7b2123
21:04:58 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 141c320f1 15Arthur Barstow: I am now an `Invited Expert`...
21:04:58 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
22:02:42 <patrick_h_lauke> hopefully fixed the messy PR with some manual rewriting and a scary interactive rebase
22:03:01 <patrick_h_lauke> obviously, this means i've rewritten history...sorry all
22:05:30 <patrick_h_lauke> ah, few tiny leftover things, but looking at github just now seems it's a lot tidier already
22:05:55 <patrick_h_lauke> going to fix up some minor things and change history again...and then we should be good to merge
22:23:38 <patrick_h_lauke> patrick_h_lauke has left #touchevents
22:31:15 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make log Public
22:31:17 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
22:31:17 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/02/17-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
22:42:41 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
22:42:41 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15RByers closed pull request #3: Errata suggestions October - December 2014 (06v1-errata...06errata-suggestions-oct-2014) 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/pull/3
22:42:41 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents
22:42:42 <gitbot> gitbot has joined #touchevents
22:42:42 <gitbot> [13touch-events] 15RByers pushed 12 new commits to 06v1-errata: 02https://github.com/w3c/touch-events/compare/1c320f119cae...9a5e800f0210
22:42:42 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 14f418be9 15Patrick H. Lauke: 5.3 Usage Examples - code formatting...
22:42:42 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 148463eb0 15Patrick H. Lauke: style change: consistent use of <code>, minor markup fixes...
22:42:42 <gitbot> 13touch-events/06v1-errata 14efccc71 15Patrick H. Lauke: 5.4 List of TouchEvent types - ref mouse events...
22:42:42 <gitbot> gitbot has left #touchevents