00:59:46 RRSAgent has joined #webapps 00:59:46 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-webapps-irc 00:59:54 RRSAgent: this meeting spans midnight 01:00:05 Zakim, who is on the phone 01:00:05 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Travis 01:00:14 Zakim, this is D3E 01:00:14 ok, Travis; that matches RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM 01:00:20 Zakim, who is on the phone 01:00:20 I don't understand 'who is on the phone', Travis 01:00:39 garykac has joined #webapps 01:00:44 Travis: Hi 01:01:49 +??P1 01:01:52 garykac: Hi, 01:02:18 sicking has joined #webapps 01:02:42 masayuki: Hello 01:03:28 Travis is having trouble with IRC. He's working on a fix right now. 01:04:06 Oh, I see. 01:04:44 Travis_ has joined #webapps 01:05:27 We have a few things to follow up on from last meeting. 01:05:44 Spec name change is one 01:06:01 3 bugs from Masayuki blocking Gecko progress 01:06:15 Removal of beforeinput and friends from the spec 01:06:37 And renaming and moving the spec. 01:06:48 Oops! I see that was already mentioned 01:07:01 Topic: Spec name change 01:07:09 garykac: Not done yet. 01:07:13 ... will do next. 01:07:28 ... hesitated since there are redirects to old one, etc. 01:07:37 ... renaming and moving to new URL? 01:07:41 ... can't remember the details. 01:07:56 ... Are we going to move it to D4E? 01:08:00 ... [and other questions] 01:08:39 So, latest TR published is here: http://www.w3.org/TR/DOM-Level-3-Events/ 01:08:54 So, the shortname is "DOM-Level-3-Events" 01:09:15 Editor's draft is here: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3-Events.html 01:09:29 So, under HG's "dom3events" folder. 01:10:09 Basically, we need to agree on the exact order that we do things in. 01:10:14 One thing we should do is re-publish the current spec with a re-direct to it's new home 01:10:32 So, unordered list first :) 01:10:41 * Modifiy Editor's draft to change name 01:10:58 * Copy editor's draft new location 01:11:30 * Decide where the editor's draft should live: the current D3E, current UIE, or a new place 01:11:33 * Change current published doc's "editor's draft" link to point to new location. 01:12:00 * Publish new draft in TR with new name and valid links 01:12:22 * Update bug database component name? 01:12:59 I'm going to dig up the email where this was last discussed to remind myself what it says... 01:14:14 Philip suggested publishing an updated version (new name) and having *both* shortnames point to it. 01:15:33 OK, well, first step is probably "modify editor's draft" so that we can do that :-) 01:15:50 As for location, where do we put the editor's draft? 01:15:51 We need to make sure that both ED links point to the correct editor's draft 01:16:55 I think it makes sense to keep using the dom3events location 01:16:59 I don't mind the mercurial path staying D3E (vesus a new location or D4E) 01:17:26 OK. so that means that we rename dom3events in-place 01:17:42 So, scrap the "Copy editor's draft to new location" 01:17:51 garykac: New shortname? 01:17:59 ... nope, it'll be UIEvents 01:19:59 Do you want to change the name of the file in mercurial? 01:20:51 I don't think it's necessary, but we can do that later if we need to. 01:20:53 garykac: I would avoid doing that now--we can always do it later. 01:21:37 Topic: beforeinput removal 01:21:37 Next topic 01:21:47 I removed beforeinput and input from the spec. 01:22:01 But we still have a few links that need to be updated 01:22:10 But I don't have a real spec to link them to. 01:22:16 This makes me sad 01:22:51 I'm waiting until we have a real link before fixing them - I'm assuming that we can get the links soon. 01:23:50 Ben's unofficial spec is at: http://w3c.github.io/editing-explainer/input-events.html 01:24:05 http://w3c.github.io/selection-api/ 01:24:16 Where the input spec go to? .isComposing is important and useful. So, it should be defined by somebody. 01:24:38 Oh, I don't think my link was right... 01:25:13 Oh, I see, bad timing... 01:25:18 The link I sent is an "unofficial draft", so I'd like to see a more semi-official draft before fixing up all the links. 01:25:42 masayuki: isComposing is part of the input spec 01:25:59 They took their initial draft from the work we did 01:26:07 garykac: Yeah, thanks, I confirmed. 01:26:49 Topic: 3 bugs for masayuki 01:27:06 (a new children's story) 01:27:19 j/k 01:27:58 bug 24739, 26019 and 26218 01:30:42 I updated bug 26218 now. 01:30:42 ... [familiarizing ourselves with the bugs again] 01:31:38 Our Linux's module owner, karlt, doesn't like adding "Super" and "Hyper" to the modifier key, but I like them. 01:31:47 So, for 24739 01:31:58 Which keys are missing to support the Sun keyboard? 01:32:32 Props is there... 01:32:40 garykac: its label is "Props". 01:32:51 USB keycode indicates "Menu". 01:33:23 vs. ContextMenu 01:33:43 So, do we need Menu and ContextMenu (with Props mapping to Menu)? 01:33:45 But it's different from "ContextMenu" and Sun's keyboard also has "ContextMenu" key. Therefore, we should provide different name for "Props". 01:33:59 It will provide a way to distinguish the keys. 01:35:27 Sun has ContextMenu and Props. But if Props -> Menu, isn't that sufficient. 01:35:29 I guess "Props" is a good name? "Menu" sounds like not good. 01:35:46 This assumes that we add Menu (in a way that clearly distinguishes it from ContextMenu) 01:36:10 masayuki: Yeah. "Menu" sounds to generic and will be probably be mis-used. 01:36:38 ContextMenu and Props are what we currently have in the spec. 01:36:46 garykac: Yeah, it must be mis-used. 01:37:34 Oh, you added "Props" already? 01:37:48 https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/dom3events/raw-file/tip/html/DOM3Events-code.html#code-Props 01:37:49 So, it sounds like the current spec has the definitions is needs? Is there anything else that has to happen for this bug? 01:38:16 garykac: just close it ;-) 01:38:20 masayuki: yes, 'props' is in the legacy section and has a bunch of other Sun keys 01:38:22 Yay! 01:40:10 On to bug 26019 01:40:20 OK, 26019... (reading bug) 01:40:50 I also filed https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27902 and https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=27903 01:41:39 Olli, our DOM event module owner, doesn't like the dictionary name and attribute names. 01:43:32 I hadn't seen those names before. Perhaps UIEventModifierInit 01:44:10 Ah, I recall the issue with 26019. 01:44:27 In DOM4, the way to process an event initializer is laid out: https://dom.spec.whatwg.org/#constructing-events 01:44:39 Step 4 basically maps names onto properties. 01:45:09 However, for these modifier key states, there's no corresponding attribute name on the event object. 01:45:28 So, I needed to define how to do this in the UIEvents/D3E spec. 01:46:36 (It's just some simple prose that describes the mapping.) 01:47:15 I can take 26019. It's a relatively small change. 01:47:47 Related to the bug 27903, garykac and I don't have a strong reason not to change the names. 01:47:52 travis: and 27092 and 27903 seem related to 26019 (naming suggestions)_ 01:48:13 (double negatives!) 01:48:37 Now, 26218. 01:51:05 Using "Super" and "Hyper" and adding "SystemAccel" is my best idea. But comment 5 and comment 6 disagree with the approach. 01:53:20 He said "similar to 'OS'". But "similar" must cause incompatibility between browsers at mapping them... 01:59:02 garykac and I are musing about how Mac is unique... :) 02:00:26 We already have "Accel" which covers the Ctrl (windows), Meta (mac), and Super (linux) 02:00:49 garykac will now scribe what he thinks. 02:01:01 Travis_: no, Accel on Linux should be Control 02:01:33 I was originally thinking that the 'OS' key would catch the Windows key and the Mac Command key, but that it not the case. (Mac Command -> Meta) 02:02:03 Given that, it would be very nice to have a single key that captures Win and Command. SystemAccel fits that purpose. 02:02:51 My suggestion is, SystemAccel should be OS on Windows and Super/Hyper on Linux. Not existing on Mac. 02:03:28 Because Command is used for shortcut key. It should be Accel. 02:03:47 For the Mac, I think that the Command key should be in both Accel and SystemAccel. 02:04:12 It we want people to adopt SystemAccel as the platform neutral way of getting system accel keys, then it needs to work on all platforms. 02:05:20 So, I will add the SystemAccel definition to the spec based on the discussion we had back in July. 02:05:31 I'm not use Mac usually. Does Command key is also used for system's shortcut key? 02:05:35 And I think we're out of time 02:06:18 masayuki: yes. e.g., Cmd-Tab to switch apps 02:06:35 So, we should meet again in two weeks? 02:06:53 The Command key is the main shortcut key for app and system shortcuts 02:07:01 two weeks sounds good. 02:07:11 garykac: Cmd-Tab example is conflict with Alt-Tab on Windows, though. But if it's so, I don't disagree with mapping Command key as SystemAccel. 02:07:29 I'm okay two weeks. 02:07:33 Fantastic. Thanks everyone! 02:07:45 Is this a wrap? 02:07:46 Thank you! 02:08:21 masayuki: 02:08:28 -[Microsoft] 02:08:32 -??P1 02:08:33 RWC_WAPI(D3E)8:00PM has ended 02:08:33 Attendees were [Microsoft] 02:08:45 RRSAgent: make the minutes 02:08:45 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/28-webapps-minutes.html Travis_ 02:08:52 RRSAgent: make logs public 02:09:01 oops! never mind. See you in 2 weeks. 02:09:19 garykac: Okay, see you! 03:25:59 Zakim has left #webapps 05:17:39 marcosc_ has joined #webapps 05:50:46 tantek has joined #webapps 06:36:46 sicking has joined #webapps 07:46:59 darobin has joined #webapps 08:00:52 dom has joined #webapps 08:51:49 marcosc has joined #webapps 08:56:37 anssik has joined #webapps 09:37:33 Lachy has joined #webapps 10:02:01 marcosc_ has joined #webapps 10:09:03 marcosc has joined #webapps 10:19:18 marcosc_ has joined #webapps 10:50:20 marcosc has joined #webapps 11:18:43 smaug has joined #webapps 12:22:21 Lachy has joined #webapps 12:33:02 smaug has joined #webapps 12:41:58 Lachy has joined #webapps 12:52:31 marcosc has joined #webapps 12:55:34 marcosc has joined #webapps 13:11:55 Lachy has joined #webapps 13:28:32 terri_offline has joined #webapps 14:54:51 Lachy has joined #webapps 15:27:50 smaug has joined #webapps 15:55:17 marcosc has joined #webapps 15:55:31 artb has joined #webapps 17:01:54 tantek has joined #webapps 17:25:35 sicking has joined #webapps 18:14:39 jsbell has joined #webapps 20:02:35 chaals has joined #webapps 20:29:08 sicking has joined #webapps 21:42:25 Lachy has joined #webapps 21:47:13 Lachy has joined #webapps 23:36:13 chaals has joined #webapps 23:39:56 tantek has joined #webapps 23:58:07 marcosc has joined #webapps 00:11:35 kbx has joined #webapps 00:24:59 tantek has joined #webapps 01:54:51 kbx has joined #webapps 02:00:02 tantek has joined #webapps 03:00:52 darobin has joined #webapps 03:10:22 darobin has joined #webapps 03:48:56 gavin has joined #webapps 03:52:52 kbx has joined #webapps 03:55:41 darobin has joined #webapps 04:29:55 darobin has joined #webapps 05:14:55 tantek has joined #webapps 05:40:38 kbx has joined #webapps 05:58:35 sicking has joined #webapps 06:43:06 sicking has joined #webapps 06:51:30 terri_offline has joined #webapps 07:01:28 terri_offline has joined #webapps 07:03:22 darobin has joined #webapps 07:22:49 darobin has joined #webapps 07:37:37 anssik has joined #webapps 07:39:49 sicking has joined #webapps 07:52:28 marcosc has joined #webapps 08:00:12 dom has joined #webapps 09:29:57 Lachy has joined #webapps 09:31:47 chaals has joined #webapps 09:48:56 darobin has joined #webapps 11:18:44 darobin has joined #webapps 11:46:16 artb has joined #webapps 11:47:51 smaug has joined #webapps 12:18:29 smaug has joined #webapps 12:19:40 Lachy has joined #webapps 14:31:15 glenn has joined #webapps 15:28:39 darobin has joined #webapps 16:15:07 smaug has joined #webapps 16:54:29 sicking has joined #webapps 17:00:14 tantek has joined #webapps 17:17:41 darobin has joined #webapps 17:44:53 jcraig has joined #webapps 19:03:56 sicking has joined #webapps 19:18:55 darobin has joined #webapps 19:33:11 tantek has joined #webapps 19:53:39 dka has joined #webapps 20:18:26 darobin has joined #webapps 20:18:34 rniwa has joined #webapps 21:01:30 sicking has joined #webapps 21:18:28 darobin has joined #webapps 22:00:12 dka has joined #webapps 23:23:39 Lachy has joined #webapps 23:24:39 richt has joined #webapps 23:36:22 kbx has joined #webapps 23:50:12 marcosc has joined #webapps 23:50:30 marcosc has joined #webapps 23:58:41 pdr__ has joined #webapps 00:53:58 kbx has joined #webapps 01:21:33 tantek has joined #webapps 02:08:39 marcosc has joined #webapps 04:18:29 tantek has joined #webapps 05:49:18 estellevw has joined #webapps 06:20:28 darobin has joined #webapps 07:28:58 kenneth_ has joined #webapps 07:29:07 dom has joined #webapps 07:51:54 marcosc has joined #webapps 08:12:20 gavin_ has joined #webapps 08:27:07 anssik has joined #webapps 09:06:37 chaals has joined #webapps 09:28:20 Lachy has joined #webapps 09:59:48 dom has joined #webapps 10:10:11 krit has joined #webapps 11:44:46 chaals has joined #webapps 11:48:56 smaug has joined #webapps 11:49:33 artb has joined #webapps 12:48:47 marcosc has joined #webapps 13:18:27 marcosc has joined #webapps 14:18:42 marcosc has joined #webapps 14:28:58 chaals has joined #webapps 15:19:52 oh dear, YA `WTF were you thinking dropping synchronous from XHR.open` thread https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015JanMar/0383.html 15:20:22 reply from Frederik seems to say it all https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2015JanMar/0385.html 15:25:17 yeah old-style backend software is still running, most probably in cobol 15:31:05 chaals: Look, I know you're a medievalist, but I didn't think you /were/ medieval :) 15:33:41 All fear Professional Software 15:55:23 gsnedders: before your forefathers were born… 16:00:48 sgsnedders is like `wtf is a punch card?` ;) 16:01:00 or FORTRAN 16:01:19 I've written FORTRAN! 16:01:37 come to think of it, I'm not surprised 16:02:02 There's enough physics/maths libraries around that heavily use FORTRAN. 16:02:13 gsnedders: Proper FORTRAN or Fortran 90/95/whatever the other one got called? 16:02:44 jgraham: ok, recent FORTRAN, not oldsk00l FORTRAN 16:02:53 And that /is/ weird, I will admit. 16:04:30 But eventually realised that no one else understood it either 16:05:12 Worst programming exercise we ever had at uni involved FORTRAN. Mostly because we had to parse it. And weren't given a grammar. And were told to work it out from the code we were given. And were then assessed based on unit tests including syntax we hadn't seen. 16:05:33 Assessing stuff by unit tests passed % is nonsense, basically. 16:10:34 marcosc has joined #webapps 16:11:19 gsnedders: a fair amount of assessing stuff at Uni is nonsense, basically. 16:13:17 chaals: yeah, but that was esspecially nonsense; I got an E (on a scale where a D is the requirement for a lowest class degree) for something that most lecturers would've given me an A or B :( 16:13:32 tl;dr: uni's bullshit and I'm glad to be away from it 16:13:45 There is some value in it… 16:14:17 …like proving you can put up with a proper job, and deserve a salary even during the week of goofing off, instead of being told to go make your own money… 16:14:24 …but… 17:28:33 estellevw has joined #webapps 17:56:21 marcosc has joined #webapps 18:27:05 rniwa has joined #webapps 19:01:11 adrianba has joined #webapps 19:16:23 jsbell has joined #webapps 19:28:57 chaals has joined #webapps 19:31:11 chaals has joined 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