IRC log of wai-wcag on 2015-01-27

Timestamps are in UTC.

15:42:44 [RRSAgent]
RRSAgent has joined #wai-wcag
15:42:44 [RRSAgent]
logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-wai-wcag-irc
15:42:46 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:42:48 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:42:48 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 18 minutes
15:42:49 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:42:49 [trackbot]
Date: 27 January 2015
15:43:36 [Kenny]
Chair: Josh
15:43:59 [Kenny]
agenda+ Charter update - members to contact AC reps
15:44:50 [Kenny]
agenda+ continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/>
15:45:38 [Kenny]
agenda+ Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open >
15:46:47 [Kenny]
agenda+ Update on comment responses to Restating flash and red flash thresholds for clarity <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69 >
15:47:18 [Kenny]
agenda+ Update on comment responses to Merging Techniques c12,c13 and 14 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/70 >
15:47:54 [Kenny]
zakim, agenda?
15:47:54 [Zakim]
I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
15:47:56 [Zakim]
1. Charter update - members to contact AC reps [from Kenny]
15:47:56 [Zakim]
2. continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/> [from Kenny]
15:47:56 [Zakim]
3. Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open > [from Kenny]
15:47:57 [Zakim]
4. Update on comment responses to Restating flash and red flash thresholds for clarity <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69 > [from Kenny]
15:47:59 [Zakim]
5. Update on comment responses to Merging Techniques c12,c13 and 14 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/70 > [from Kenny]
15:48:54 [botie]
botie has joined #wai-wcag
15:50:20 [Kenny]
botie, inform Joshue I have kicked start trackbot, and setup agenda
15:50:20 [botie]
will do
15:50:53 [Kenny]
zakim, agenda+ [Public WCAG survey] Update on results
15:50:53 [Zakim]
agendum 6 added
15:51:00 [Kenny]
zakim, agenda?
15:51:00 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:51:02 [Zakim]
1. Charter update - members to contact AC reps [from Kenny]
15:51:02 [Zakim]
2. continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/> [from Kenny]
15:51:02 [Zakim]
3. Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open > [from Kenny]
15:51:03 [Zakim]
4. Update on comment responses to Restating flash and red flash thresholds for clarity <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69 > [from Kenny]
15:51:04 [Zakim]
5. Update on comment responses to Merging Techniques c12,c13 and 14 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/70 > [from Kenny]
15:51:04 [Zakim]
6. [Public WCAG survey] Update on results [from Kenny]
15:54:45 [yatil_]
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15:56:01 [Joshue108]
trackbot, start meeting
15:56:03 [trackbot]
RRSAgent, make logs public
15:56:05 [trackbot]
Zakim, this will be WAI_WCAG
15:56:05 [Zakim]
ok, trackbot; I see WAI_WCAG()11:00AM scheduled to start in 4 minutes
15:56:06 [trackbot]
Meeting: Web Content Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference
15:56:06 [trackbot]
Date: 27 January 2015
15:56:11 [Joshue108]
Chair: AWK
15:56:20 [Joshue108]
Zakim, agenda?
15:56:20 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
15:56:21 [Zakim]
1. Charter update - members to contact AC reps [from Kenny]
15:56:21 [Zakim]
2. continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/> [from Kenny]
15:56:21 [Zakim]
3. Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open > [from Kenny]
15:56:21 [Zakim]
4. Update on comment responses to Restating flash and red flash thresholds for clarity <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69 > [from Kenny]
15:56:23 [Zakim]
5. Update on comment responses to Merging Techniques c12,c13 and 14 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/70 > [from Kenny]
15:56:23 [Zakim]
6. [Public WCAG survey] Update on results [from Kenny]
15:56:46 [yatil]
botie, Joshue108 is Joshue
15:56:46 [botie]
OK, yatil.
15:57:16 [Kathy]
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15:59:01 [Zakim]
WAI_WCAG()11:00AM has now started
15:59:09 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
15:59:19 [Joshue108]
Zakim, [IPcaller] is Joshue
15:59:21 [Zakim]
+Joshue; got it
15:59:35 [yatil]
zakim, call EricE-Skype
15:59:35 [Zakim]
ok, yatil; the call is being made
15:59:36 [Zakim]
+EricE
15:59:47 [Joshue108]
Zakim, Joshue has Michael
15:59:47 [Zakim]
+Michael; got it
15:59:48 [Zakim]
+Kathy_Wahlbin
15:59:59 [Zakim]
+AWK
16:00:02 [AWK]
AWK has joined #wai-wcag
16:00:04 [yatil]
zakim, nick yatil is EricE
16:00:04 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
16:00:04 [Zakim]
ok, yatil, I now associate you with EricE
16:00:06 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
16:00:09 [Zakim]
+??P9
16:01:34 [Kenny]
zakimm, call kenny-mobile
16:01:41 [Kenny]
zakim, call kenny-mobile
16:01:42 [Zakim]
ok, Kenny; the call is being made
16:01:42 [Zakim]
+Kenny
16:01:54 [marcjohlic]
marcjohlic has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:00 [David]
David has joined #wai-wcag
16:02:10 [yatil]
Zakim, who is on the phone?
16:02:11 [Zakim]
On the phone I see Joshue, EricE (muted), Kathy_Wahlbin, AWK, ??P9, Kenny
16:02:11 [Zakim]
Joshue has Michael
16:02:17 [Kenny]
zakim, mute me
16:02:17 [Zakim]
Kenny should now be muted
16:02:26 [Zakim]
+Marc_Johlic
16:02:28 [Joshue108]
Zakim, ??P9 is DavidMacD
16:02:28 [Zakim]
+DavidMacD; got it
16:03:21 [Joshue108]
Zakim, mute me
16:03:21 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:03:26 [AWK]
Zakim, agenda?
16:03:26 [Zakim]
I see 6 items remaining on the agenda:
16:03:27 [Zakim]
1. Charter update - members to contact AC reps [from Kenny]
16:03:27 [Zakim]
2. continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/> [from Kenny]
16:03:27 [Zakim]
3. Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open > [from Kenny]
16:03:27 [Zakim]
4. Update on comment responses to Restating flash and red flash thresholds for clarity <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/69 > [from Kenny]
16:03:29 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:03:29 [Zakim]
5. Update on comment responses to Merging Techniques c12,c13 and 14 <https://github.com/w3c/wcag/issues/70 > [from Kenny]
16:03:29 [Zakim]
6. [Public WCAG survey] Update on results [from Kenny]
16:04:16 [David]
Scribe: David
16:04:35 [David]
Zakim. next item
16:04:50 [David]
Zakim, next item
16:04:50 [Zakim]
agendum 1. "Charter update - members to contact AC reps" taken up [from Kenny]
16:05:06 [yatil]
s/Zakim. next item//
16:06:02 [Loretta]
Loretta has joined #wai-wcag
16:06:46 [Zakim]
+[IPcaller]
16:06:57 [Loretta]
zakim, IPcaller is Loretta
16:06:58 [Zakim]
+Loretta; got it
16:07:18 [Joshue108]
Zakim, mute me
16:07:18 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:07:20 [David]
AC reps will contact need to vote... we need 5% of votes of AC reps to successfully. So everyone should lobby your rep
16:07:21 [AWK]
Zakim, next item
16:07:22 [Zakim]
agendum 3. "Scrub of actions <https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/track/actions/open >" taken up [from Kenny]
16:07:31 [Zakim]
+Katie_Haritos-Shea
16:07:37 [AWK]
Zakim, take up item 2
16:07:38 [Zakim]
agendum 2. "continuing review Images Tutorial, Tables Tutorial,Tutorials cover page: <https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/>" taken up [from Kenny]
16:08:32 [David]
Eric: We made it through the forms
16:08:37 [yatil]
ack me
16:09:55 [David]
Eric: I've tried to implement changes identified in meeting and we bring them back. Have made a wiki to EO to review. Do not expect it to be a formal review b ut will look over changes and give feedback
16:10:03 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
16:10:03 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
16:10:03 [AWK]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/results
16:10:31 [David]
Andrew: Let's look at image
16:11:11 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/
16:11:42 [David]
q+
16:12:47 [yatil]
ack me
16:13:07 [yatil]
zakim, mute me
16:13:07 [Zakim]
EricE should now be muted
16:13:14 [David]
q+
16:13:18 [Joshue108]
Zakim,q?
16:13:18 [Zakim]
I see David on the speaker queue
16:14:04 [Joshue108]
+1 to not saying that its not recommended
16:14:57 [David]
Andrew and David, cathy and mark: wary to say that role="presentation" is not ok, so it should stay
16:14:58 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:15:29 [Ryladog]
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16:15:29 [David]
Josh +1 sith others
16:15:32 [Ryladog]
+1
16:15:33 [David]
q+
16:16:50 [David]
Note: If the text included an explanation of how the dog wears a bell, the image might be considered redundant and therefore decorative. As this isn’t mentioned in the text, the image is deemed to be informative.
16:16:59 [David]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/informative/
16:18:02 [AWK]
ack da
16:18:13 [yatil]
Direct link to the text: http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/informative/#images-used-to-supplement-other-information
16:18:14 [Loretta]
q+
16:18:22 [yatil]
Last paragraph.
16:18:24 [Kathy]
q+
16:19:15 [AWK]
ack lor
16:19:37 [AWK]
ack kath
16:19:38 [David]
Loretta: long standing discussion, don't want to block discussion
16:19:40 [Kathy]
q-
16:20:56 [David]
Cathy: Usability studies, i didn't have a problem with ... whenever I have had participants, they like short alt text, depends on the type of site agree with david that it is not well defined
16:21:10 [David]
educational context different from banking site
16:22:04 [David]
Andrew: long standing debate, judgement that authors make, judgement that they are responsible for....
16:22:08 [David]
q+
16:22:45 [AWK]
ack d
16:25:03 [Loretta]
q+
16:25:04 [David]
David: if author decides then where is the testability requirement of critical mass of knowledgeable
16:25:26 [AWK]
ack lor
16:25:49 [David]
Katie: Gregg would say 8/10
16:26:36 [David]
Loretta: seems there is not agreement among knowledgeable people, we agree in a range, but not clear where to draw the line
16:27:26 [Joshue108]
Zakim, mute me
16:27:26 [Zakim]
Joshue should now be muted
16:27:26 [David]
Loretta: my personal opinion is give people the benefit of the doubt if it looks like they thought about it.
16:28:02 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:28:22 [AWK]
David: Like Steve F's document on writing alt text, part of the HTML5 spec
16:30:28 [Joshue108]
q+
16:30:48 [AWK]
ack josh
16:31:16 [David]
David: I have some concern of authors being the judge
16:31:40 [David]
Michael: I think we should honour the authors opinions
16:32:12 [yatil]
ack me
16:33:54 [AWK]
look here: https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/results
16:33:55 [David]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/results
16:35:23 [Joshue108]
Zakim, q/
16:35:23 [Zakim]
I don't understand 'q/', Joshue108
16:35:29 [Joshue108]
Zakim,?
16:35:29 [Zakim]
I don't understand your question, Joshue108.
16:35:38 [Joshue108]
Zakim,q?
16:35:38 [Zakim]
I see no one on the speaker queue
16:35:42 [Joshue108]
q+
16:36:24 [Joshue108]
ack me
16:38:31 [AWK]
ack josh
16:38:37 [David]
Cathy: Lots of research in Math, and Mathjax has limitations
16:39:15 [AWK]
s/Cathy/Kathy
16:40:54 [David]
Andrew: Maybe link to Mathjax
16:44:05 [David]
Action: David to suggest text disclaimer for Math section.
16:44:16 [trackbot]
Created ACTION-305 - Suggest text disclaimer for math section. [on David MacDonald - due 2015-02-03].
16:46:27 [David]
can someone drop in the link to math tutorial?
16:47:25 [Zakim]
+James_Nurthen
16:47:56 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/groups/
16:48:05 [AWK]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/results
16:49:25 [jamesn]
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16:49:35 [jamesn]
rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:35 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-wai-wcag-minutes.html jamesn
16:49:42 [David]
Image maps: may not work on all images... we should caution regarding accessibility of images
16:50:10 [yatil]
1+
16:50:10 [yatil]
q+
16:50:22 [yatil]
s/1+//
16:50:22 [yatil]
q+
16:50:39 [yatil]
ack me
16:50:43 [David]
Cathy: there have been limitations on mobile... it doesn't work for image maps, but mobile is changing quickly
16:52:04 [David]
Eric: I've looked at the comments, in this case this creates a conflict for mobile,
16:52:27 [David]
Andrew: There is concern that not enough mention of aria, no links to aria taechniques
16:52:41 [Kathy]
s/Cathy/Kathy
16:53:34 [jamesn]
q+
16:54:00 [David]
Cathy: I think we could add aria, haven't gone through whole tutorial so don't know if examples there
16:54:09 [AWK]
ack ja
16:54:15 [David]
Mark: would at least like to see the links to aria techniques
16:54:49 [David]
James: the example in image map not complete, no information about the relationships in the org chart.
16:55:17 [David]
James: just has names and roles and not relationships of people in org chart... there are lines...
16:55:38 [Kathy]
+1
16:55:47 [David]
James: Reports to chairman, type of addition to the alt
16:55:55 [David]
Eric: that's fine
16:56:20 [David]
James: I do them as trees for the alt, rather than alt text
16:58:00 [David]
Eric: images so basic that using aria seems not well called for
16:58:39 [David]
James: under trips and tricks, SVG section aria label or labelledby, I advise both for SVG
16:59:26 [David]
Andrew: decorative images, role="presentation"
16:59:26 [jamesn]
(both aria-label or labelledby AND title element)
16:59:38 [Ryladog]
+1
16:59:50 [David]
James: both aria-label or labelledby AND title element on SVG
17:00:14 [David]
Mark: aria15 describedby should be there
17:00:16 [Ryladog]
include but not as the first or most promonent technique
17:01:02 [David]
Eric: I'll add aria in SVG, complex, etc.
17:01:16 [Kathy]
q+
17:01:58 [AWK]
ack kathy
17:02:16 [yatil]
s/etc./decorative/
17:02:39 [David]
Eric: will add link to tutorial
17:02:51 [David]
in the presentation images section
17:03:23 [Kathy]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/complex/
17:03:57 [David]
Kathy: In code snipit approach 1 won't currently work on mobile http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/complex/
17:04:21 [yatil]
Direct link to the note: http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/complex/##Both+Firefox+and+Chrome
17:04:37 [Kathy]
Note: Both Firefox and Chrome browsers are working on implementations that will make the longdesc linked long description location reachable by all users. On mobile, longdesc is currently not supported. Currently, and in other browsers, it’s only available to screen reader users.
17:05:57 [David]
RESOLUTION: approves conditional publication of image tutorial, provided that there are not major EO changes to image section.
17:06:08 [jnurthen]
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17:06:17 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
17:06:30 [AWK]
TOPIC: Table Tutorial
17:06:31 [David]
TOPIC: Table tutorial
17:06:31 [AWK]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
17:06:40 [yatil]
https://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/1/TutorialsCIT/results#xtables
17:08:42 [Joshue108]
q?
17:09:40 [yatil]
yatil has joined #wai-wcag
17:10:58 [Joshue108]
q+
17:12:08 [Joshue108]
ack me
17:15:16 [yatil_]
yatil_ has joined #wai-wcag
17:16:20 [Ryladog]
q+
17:16:23 [David]
sometimes caption not appropriate, aria labelledby can solve
17:17:09 [David]
http://davidmacd.com/test/details.html here are my tests
17:20:38 [David]
James: I suggest summary even though it makes the validator in html5 complain...
17:21:06 [Joshue108]
q+
17:21:12 [Joshue108]
ack me
17:21:23 [Joshue108]
ack ryla
17:23:35 [yatil_]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/multi-directional/#table-with-header-cells-in-one-column-only
17:26:44 [David]
David: Add heading above a table
17:27:07 [yatil_]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/
17:27:17 [yatil_]
http://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/tables/##such+as+PDF
17:28:01 [David]
+1
17:28:26 [Kathy]
+1
17:28:37 [yatil_]
+1 to remove "such as PDF"
17:28:49 [Loretta]
remove "may"
17:29:15 [Ryladog]
+1
17:29:18 [Joshue108]
remove may +1
17:29:21 [yatil_]
OK.
17:29:55 [David]
Andrew:"ome document formats other than HTML, such as PDF, may provide similar mechanisms to markup table structures." don't want to say "may"
17:30:02 [marcjohlic]
+1 to removing "may" also
17:30:11 [jnurthen]
+1 to remove may
17:30:12 [David]
because it does...
17:30:43 [Zakim]
-James_Nurthen
17:30:59 [Zakim]
-Katie_Haritos-Shea
17:31:01 [David]
Andrew: out of time so can't talk about multi directional
17:31:29 [Zakim]
-Joshue
17:31:35 [Zakim]
-Loretta
17:31:37 [Zakim]
-AWK
17:31:39 [Zakim]
-Kenny
17:31:40 [Zakim]
-Kathy_Wahlbin
17:31:40 [Zakim]
-EricE
17:31:44 [Zakim]
-Marc_Johlic
17:31:59 [David]
Zakim, list attendees
17:31:59 [Zakim]
As of this point the attendees have been EricE, Michael, Kathy_Wahlbin, AWK, Kenny, Marc_Johlic, DavidMacD, Loretta, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen
17:32:15 [David]
zakim, bye
17:32:15 [Zakim]
leaving. As of this point the attendees were EricE, Michael, Kathy_Wahlbin, AWK, Kenny, Marc_Johlic, DavidMacD, Loretta, Katie_Haritos-Shea, James_Nurthen
17:32:15 [Zakim]
Zakim has left #wai-wcag
17:32:35 [David]
Zakim, list attendees
17:32:48 [David]
rrsagent, make log public
17:32:59 [David]
rrsagent, make minutes
17:32:59 [RRSAgent]
I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-wai-wcag-minutes.html David
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