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16:02:13 <rbyers> Meeting: Touch Events Community Group
16:02:15 <rbyers> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0090.html
16:02:27 <rbyers> Chair: rbyers
16:02:28 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:41 <smaug> Zakim, [IPcaller] is Olli_Pettay
16:02:42 <Zakim> +Olli_Pettay; got it
16:02:43 <asir> asir has joined #touchevents
16:02:49 <smaug> Zakim, nick smaug is Olli_Pettay
16:02:50 <Zakim> ok, smaug, I now associate you with Olli_Pettay
16:02:55 <rbyers> Regrets: Art_Barstow, Patrick_Lauke
16:03:59 <shepazu> Zakim, who's here?
16:03:59 <Zakim> On the phone I see Matt_Brubeck, Scott_Gonzalez, rbyers, +1.571.426.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, Olli_Pettay
16:04:01 <Zakim> On IRC I see asir, RRSAgent, mustaq, Zakim, tdresser, shepazu, smaug, sangwhan, scott_gonzalez, mbrubeck, rbyers
16:04:04 <rbyers> Present: Matt_Brubeck, Olli_Pettay, Scott_Gonzalez, Asir_Vedamuthu, Rick_Byers, Tim_Dresser, Mustaq_Ahmed
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16:04:36 <rbyers> Present+ Doug_Schepers
16:05:39 <tdresser> rbyers: Agenda should include a discussion of what we should block checkins on for GitHub.
16:05:53 <rbyers> Topic: Identifying mouse events derived from touch
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16:06:12 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0065.html
16:06:30 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0078.html
16:06:31 <tdresser> rbyers: Last call, jrossi argued for "FiredFrom" api, Anne had some objections to that Api, as it isn't well defined.
16:07:00 <tdresser> rbyers: On the list, I proposed a "sourcedevice" api, which would let you determine if an event came from a device which fires touch events.
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16:07:46 <tdresser> rbyers: Maybe we should punt until jrossi is here.
16:08:03 <tdresser> rbyers: Punting until next call with jrossi, or resolve over email.
16:08:31 <rbyers> Topic: Identifying touch events that can trigger scrolling
16:08:34 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0058.html
16:08:58 <tdresser> rbyers: We talked about this two weeks ago, came up with a tentative Api, I wrote up a doc for it.
16:09:20 <tdresser> rbyers: High level, touch events have a "defaultstartsmanipulation" bit, which indicates if you're about to lose control over touch events.
16:10:34 <tdresser> rbyers: It's important that we come up with something that Safari can implement too.
16:11:20 <tdresser> asir: Do we need something like this for other event types as well?
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16:11:45 <tdresser> rbyers: We don't have the same kind of state machine with other input types.
16:11:50 <rbyers> s/asir/olli
16:12:38 <tdresser> olli: It could be useful for pointer events, and wheel events.
16:13:26 <shepazu> agenda+ writing
16:13:49 <tdresser> rbyers: Chrome's implementation here is really simple, but probably worse than the implementation Firefox has. This isn't necessary for Chrome's current implementation.
16:14:03 <tdresser> rbyers: This is somewhat similar to touch action, it could also apply to wheel events.
16:14:51 <tdresser> rbyers: jrossi argued that this was more important for touch because touch is common on low power devices, and touch requires lower latency.
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16:18:13 <rbyers> Topic: Rotation angle / tilt definitions in TEE
16:18:23 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0088.html
16:18:32 <tdresser> rbyers: Samsung recently started contributing, which is good to see.
16:19:14 <tdresser> rbyers: They believe that they should be firing touch events for stylus, for the 90% case, but they should enable websites expecting stylus input to take advantage of stylus specific features.
16:19:53 <tdresser> ??: Wacom is also interested in this.
16:20:03 <rbyers> s/??/shepazu
16:20:22 <tdresser> Shepazu: Stylus is very important.
16:20:54 <tdresser> shepazu: If you use touch for stylus, you'll run into problems with multiple simultaneous modalities (touch and pen at the same time).
16:21:28 <tdresser> shepazu: There was an object from yandex against publishing pointer events as a formal recommendation.
16:21:47 <tdresser> shepazu: They didn't want the fragmentation between touch and pointer events.
16:22:59 <tdresser> shepazu: This objection will be raised to the w3c director, but can be delegated. In this case it was delegated to another w3c staff (Ralph).
16:23:28 <tdresser> shepazu: We don't know yet what the official decision will be on that. I expect pointer events will be published as a recommendation.
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16:23:52 <tdresser> shepazu: One of the points raised in the objection was that there is currently no other way to support pen and touch on the web.
16:24:17 <tdresser> shepazu: We could do that here, but I think we want to be careful that we don't just reinvent pointer events and call it touch events.
16:25:00 <rbyers> One possible path (inspired by pointer events) for touch events to address the multi-device scenario: https://docs.google.com/a/chromium.org/document/d/1x-yE4CmTZlZQXea4_FPjgly5TOvF28UBNs9gZ5aGUhg/edit
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16:25:57 <smaug> (extending an API has fragmentation issues just like adding a new API)
16:26:42 <shepazu> s/yandex/a W3C member/
16:28:08 <shepazu> s/(Ralph)//
16:29:01 <tdresser> rbyers: We'll probably want to talk about extending touch events more thoroughly in the future, but for now we do need to respond to Samsung.
16:29:34 <tdresser> rbyers: Should we say that adding the stylus specific attributes to touch events are out of scope for now, or should we tell them we'll get back to them in a month?
16:29:53 <mbrubeck> We started adding pen attributes in the abandoned "Touch Events v2" spec https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/webevents/raw-file/default/touchevents.html
16:30:12 <tdresser> shepazu: I would say that it's definitely something that we need to solve for the platform, and long term, we'll consider putting it in touch events.
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16:33:01 <tdresser> rbyers: Does anyone object with shepazu's wording?
16:33:18 <tdresser> rbyers: I'll reply to the thread then.
16:33:58 <rbyers> Topic: Writing
16:35:58 <tdresser> shepazu: Should we have an Api for converting handwriting to text?
16:36:12 <rbyers> http://www.w3.org/TR/ime-api/
16:36:23 <tdresser> rbyers: I don't have much expertise in this space, at Google, our IME team has more context here.
16:37:23 <tdresser> shepazu: Does it seem like this would be useful/possible for the web?
16:37:38 <tdresser> olli: This could be a JS library pretty easily.
16:38:02 <tdresser> rbyers: What's relevant for this group is, "If you want to support this scenario, how would your api's change?"
16:38:12 <Zakim> - +1.571.426.aaaa
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16:38:30 <tdresser> rbyers: We'd need to expose the historical events. You don't want to optimize for latency in this case, you want to optimize for accuracy.
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16:38:59 <rbyers> s/your api's/your low-level input apis/
16:39:40 <tdresser> shepazu: You could do this with a JS library, or an external service. I'll talk to the IME folks.
16:40:28 <tdresser> rbyers: You're right that we do want to enable this offline, you may want to make sure your handwriting isn't being sent across the web.
16:40:38 <rbyers> Topic: Process for landing changes in GitHub
16:40:40 <rbyers> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-touchevents/2015Jan/0094.html
16:40:55 <tdresser> rbyers: Doug, can you tell us anything about how other groups are using GitHub?
16:41:07 <tdresser> shepazu: Every group is different.
16:41:52 <tdresser> shepazu: I'd take pull requests from anyone, and authorized people would integrate the pull requests.
16:42:14 <tdresser> shepazu: For editors, the process should be "commit -> review" for everyone else, the process should be "review -> commit"
16:42:35 <tdresser> shepazu: The editor can always come to the group and ask for feedback.
16:42:44 <tdresser> shepazu: Does that seem reasonable?
16:43:20 <tdresser> rbyers: When you say that for other folks it would be "review->commit", it doesn't need to be a conference call does it? It can just be an editor looking at it?
16:43:40 <tdresser> shepazu: We don't need to look at every little change on the conference call.
16:44:01 <tdresser> rbyers: Here's a proposal:
16:44:23 <tdresser> rbyers: If any of us want to land a patch, create a pull request, and then an editor needs to review it.
16:44:40 <tdresser> rbyers: Only editors can land patches, and all pull requests will be sent to the list.
16:45:02 <tdresser> rbyers: We can always revert changes if there is contention.
16:45:13 <mbrubeck> +1
16:45:15 <tdresser> shepazu: I agree, and think we should accept that.
16:45:43 <tdresser> mbrubeck: I agree, we should keep it light, we can always revert things.
16:46:22 <tdresser> RESOLUTION: use proposed method for landing patches.
16:48:14 <tdresser> shepazu: specs.webplatform.org could pull the spec from GitHub, it will provide a nice way for getting feedback.
16:49:16 <tdresser> rbyers: Right now editors of the extension note are listed as rbyers, sangwhan, shepazu, mbrubeck, is this a good list of editors?
16:49:51 <tdresser> shepazu: Anyone active in the group, making good pull requests, who is a member of the CG should probably be made an editor.
16:50:21 <tdresser> shepazu: We should have art on there.
16:50:56 <tdresser> shepazu: rbyers should be an editor of v1 errata.
16:51:00 <mbrubeck> rbyers for editor!
16:51:22 <tdresser> rbyers: We want to make sure people like Patrick can easily make a bunch of improvements.
16:51:32 <tdresser> shepazu: Perhaps Patrick should also be an editor.
16:52:41 <rbyers> Topic: Plan for next two weeks of calls?
16:53:01 <tdresser> rbyers: I'll be in Australia for the next 2 calls. Should we meet anyways?
16:53:15 <tdresser> rbyers: Or we can just meet again in 3 weeks.
16:53:34 <tdresser> shepazu: We might as well cancel.
16:53:54 <tdresser> shepazu: rbyers and jrossi are both necessary.
16:54:19 <Zakim> -Olli_Pettay
16:54:20 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
16:54:21 <Zakim> -rbyers
16:54:29 <Zakim> -Scott_Gonzalez
16:54:39 <Zakim> -Matt_Brubeck
16:54:40 <Zakim> RWC_PEWG()11:00AM has ended
16:54:40 <Zakim> Attendees were Matt_Brubeck, Scott_Gonzalez, rbyers, +1.571.426.aaaa, Doug_Schepers, Olli_Pettay
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17:30:16 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:30:16 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
17:31:36 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make log member
17:31:40 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
17:31:40 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
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20:53:46 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make log public
20:54:08 <rbyers> RRSAgent, make minutes
20:54:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/27-touchevents-minutes.html rbyers
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