20:28:31 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #svg
20:28:31 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-svg-irc
20:28:33 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs public
20:28:35 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be GA_SVGWG
20:28:35 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see GA_SVGWG()3:30PM scheduled to start in 2 minutes
20:28:36 <trackbot> Meeting: SVG Working Group Teleconference
20:28:36 <trackbot> Date: 22 January 2015
20:30:06 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has now started
20:30:13 <Zakim> +cabanier
20:30:23 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:25 <heycam> Zakim, [ is me
20:30:25 <Zakim> +heycam; got it
20:30:48 <Zakim> +??P7
20:30:50 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:30:59 <smailus> smailus has joined #svg
20:31:00 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:31:01 <heycam> Chair: Cameron
20:31:02 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
20:31:05 <ed> Zakim, [IP is me
20:31:05 <Zakim> +ed; got it
20:31:08 <heycam> Agenda: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-svg/2015Jan/0026.html
20:31:20 <nikos> nikos has joined #svg
20:31:32 <Zakim> +Doug_Schepers
20:31:36 <Zakim> +Thomas_Smailus
20:32:02 <Zakim> +??P10
20:32:04 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:32:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see cabanier, heycam, ??P7, ed, Doug_Schepers, Thomas_Smailus, ??P10
20:32:08 <Zakim> +??P15
20:32:10 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
20:32:33 <stakagi> zakim, ??P10 si me
20:32:33 <Zakim> I don't understand '??P10 si me', stakagi
20:32:43 <Zakim> +??P17
20:32:44 <Tav> Zakim, ??P15 is me
20:32:44 <Zakim> +Tav; got it
20:32:45 <stakagi> zakim, ??P10 is me
20:32:46 <Zakim> +stakagi; got it
20:32:48 <nikos> Zakim, ??P17 is me
20:32:48 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:33:35 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:33:35 <Zakim> On the phone I see cabanier, heycam, ??P7, ed, Doug_Schepers, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Tav, birtles, nikos
20:34:02 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:34:02 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose heycam
20:34:11 <shepazu> agenda+ SVG-A11y TF telcon tomorrow
20:34:15 <heycam> Zakim, pick a scribe
20:34:15 <Zakim> Not knowing who is chairing or who scribed recently, I propose nikos
20:34:20 <AmeliaBR> AmeliaBR has joined #svg
20:34:48 <nikos> scribe: Nikos
20:34:50 <nikos> scribenick: nikos
20:34:51 <nikos> Topic:  Linköping F2F date move request
20:35:04 <Zakim> +??P18
20:35:08 <AmeliaBR> nikos: yep!
20:35:14 <nikos> heycam: Brian suggested moving one week later
20:35:41 <nikos> heycam: Seemed like it would be ok from the organising end of things
20:35:42 <AmeliaBR> sorry, heycam.  Hello to everyone.
20:35:48 <nikos> ed: either week is fine
20:36:01 <nikos> heycam: any objections to moving it later a week?
20:36:20 <nikos> ed: Do we want Tuesday 9th to Friday 12th?
20:36:25 <nikos> ... or Monday - Thursday?
20:37:12 <nikos> birtles: i wouldn't be able to make the Monday
20:37:50 <nikos> Tav: I'd have a little trouble making the Monday
20:38:09 <ChrisL> ChrisL has joined #svg
20:38:37 <nikos> Tav: Tues-Friday would be ok, I might just have to leave Friday afternoon
20:38:48 <nikos> RESOLUTION: June F2F will be Tuesday 9th June to Friday 12th June
20:38:54 <Zakim> +ChrisL
20:39:21 <nikos> Topic: Welcome Amelia
20:39:29 <nikos> AmeliaBR: Hello everyone! Thanks for having me
20:39:39 <nikos> ... I won't be able to make the June F2F I'm afraid
20:39:45 <nikos> heycam: glad to have you here
20:39:57 <nikos> Topic: Neutering or dropping SVGSVGElement.forceRedraw
20:40:11 <nikos> heycam: I was looking through the open issues in the second half of the structure chapter
20:40:16 <nikos> ... which covers SVG element dom stuff
20:40:23 <nikos> ... one issue is what to do with this forceRedraw method
20:40:32 <nikos> ... was wondering if we should define it more clearly
20:40:34 <nikos> ... it's a bit hand wavy
20:40:36 <nikos> ... or we could drop it
20:40:50 <nikos> ... searching the mailing list I came across a discussion about dropping this and suspendRedraw family of methods
20:41:02 <nikos> ... Erik was going to try removing them from Blink
20:41:10 <ChrisL> agenda+ lacuna value
20:41:21 <ed> https://codereview.chromium.org/868603003/
20:41:23 <nikos> ed: I didn't get an action so never did it back then
20:41:37 <nikos> ... but filed a patch today for dropping this - it's waiting review, but no failures in LayoutTests
20:41:48 <nikos> ... so unlikely it'll break anything
20:42:01 <nikos> AmeliaBR: so script would break if someone's script called it?
20:42:03 <nikos> heycam: yes
20:42:22 <nikos> heycam: our guess is that pages aren't calling this method at all so should be safe to remove it
20:42:41 <nikos> heycam: we can check in with Erik in a couple of weeks to see how this is going?
20:42:59 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #svg
20:43:16 <nikos> heycam: I'm interested in making a decision within the time frame of making changes to the SVG 2 spec
20:43:26 <nikos> ... do you think we'll know by then, or can we drop until LC and see what happens?
20:43:47 <nikos> ChrisL: I'd prefer we drop it and if it turns out at last minute that major uses cases are deployed we can roll back
20:44:00 <nikos> heycam: would there be an issue adding things back in without dropping back to WD?
20:44:16 <nikos> ChrisL: there's no problem in new procedure - there's no LC status anymore
20:44:22 <nikos> ... but you have to show wide review in CR
20:44:32 <nikos> ... you can change as much as you want before CR
20:44:52 <nikos> ... after CR you can update CR with editorial changes, major changes require transition meeting
20:45:16 <nikos> ... another alternative is to deprecate it but that's probably the worst of both worlds
20:45:20 <heycam> Zakim, who is on the call?
20:45:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see cabanier, heycam, ??P7, ed, Doug_Schepers, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Tav, birtles, nikos, ??P18, ChrisL
20:45:36 <nikos> ed: implementation right now is empty methods
20:45:45 <nikos> ChrisL: I'd be happy blowing it off
20:46:09 <nikos> AmeliaBR: my perspective as an author is that because of the nature of these methods - they don't return or do anything, it's harmless to have them as methods taht don't do anything
20:46:17 <nikos> ... if they cause an error then someone's script is broken
20:46:32 <nikos> ... and don't know if people would pick that up
20:46:39 <nikos> ... with a test suite
20:47:03 <nikos> heycam: if we do this experiment removing it from Blink and don't get any problem reports would it satisfy you that it's safe to remove?
20:47:06 <nikos> AmeliaBR: probably
20:47:13 <nikos> ... I reference them in an SVG book that got published last year
20:47:19 <nikos> ... but don't know how much they're used in the wild
20:47:39 <nikos> shepazu: Cameron are you suggesting we remove them and throw an error?
20:48:00 <nikos> heycam: we've already neutered suspendRedraw but not forceRedraw
20:48:07 <ChrisLittle> ChrisLittle has joined #svg
20:48:07 <nikos> ... neuter is minimum level I'd like
20:48:09 <Zakim> -nikos
20:50:30 <Zakim> +??P2
20:50:35 <nikos> Zakim, ??P2 is me
20:50:35 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
20:50:39 <ChrisL> (discussion on removal with error, or silent neutering)
20:51:26 <ed> https://codereview.chromium.org/868603003/patch/1/10004
20:51:26 <nikos> ed: To clarify, the Blink patch hasn't landed but it does remove the methods
20:51:41 <nikos> krit: did you measure usage?
20:51:51 <nikos> ed: no
20:52:00 <ChrisL> Its removing *stubs*
20:52:03 <ChrisL> / Stubs for the deprecated 'redraw' interface.
20:52:07 <nikos> krit: would be good to have feedback first
20:52:34 <nikos> ChrisL: these don't do anything currently - they're just stubs - so are people really likely to be relying on that?
20:52:39 <nikos> heycam: you can imagine only accidently
20:52:45 <ChrisL> void forceRedraw() { }
20:52:55 <ChrisL> unsigned suspendRedraw(unsigned) { return 1; }
20:52:57 <nikos> heycam: I'd be happy, now, neutering it in the spec and waiting to see how the patch goes
20:53:00 <krit> ChrisL: right, that is how WebKit implements it
20:53:08 <nikos> ... I wouldn't even be that unhappy if it just remained neutered in the spec
20:53:09 <shepazu> q+
20:53:27 <nikos> AmeliaBR: I think Doug's and my concern was about not wanting to throw errors in scripts that currently work
20:53:42 <nikos> shepazu: that's the core issue - having a void function that returns nothing is fine
20:53:55 <Zakim> -ed
20:54:07 <nikos> ChrisL: I understand about errors being thrown, what I was wondering was whether anyone was using these in practice since they don't do anything
20:54:26 <nikos> krit: what about saying it may redraw in the spec
20:54:28 <nikos> ... then it's up to the browsers
20:54:37 <cabanier> 1800 hits on github: https://github.com/search?l=javascript&q=suspendredraw&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
20:54:44 <ChrisL> void forceRedraw() { alert("clean up your code, dammit!")}
20:54:45 <nikos> ... if we don't get any negative comments from Chromium we can drop the whole API
20:55:02 <krit> cabanier: but is it a property that is called?
20:55:06 <nikos> heycam: I think may would be too cautious - it would be fine to neuter immediately and decide about dropping later
20:55:09 <cabanier> krit: yes
20:55:19 <krit> cabanier: there are hacks for redrawing that are called the same way too
20:55:31 <heycam> https://github.com/search?l=javascript&q=forceRedraw&type=Code&utf8=%E2%9C%93
20:55:45 <nikos> heycam: Rik linked to a github search - there are some files calling forceRedraw
20:56:21 <nikos> krit: looks like forceRedraw are unrelated to svg
20:56:26 <nikos> heycam: the first result looks like a real svg usage
20:56:34 <nikos> AmeliaBR: some of these are svg calls
20:56:55 <nikos> krit: I'm not doubting suspendRedraw but forceRedraw does not do anything svg specific
20:57:00 <heycam> https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=suspendredraw+svg&type=Code&ref=searchresults
20:57:18 <heycam> https://github.com/search?utf8=%E2%9C%93&q=forceredraw+svg&type=Code&ref=searchresults
20:57:36 <nikos> krit: if you're unsure keep wording in svg but make it 'may'
20:57:46 <nikos> ... that way if there are implementations that do something for svg they can continue
20:58:09 <nikos> heycam: Blink does nothing, WebKit does nothing, Gecko does nothing for suspend but does something for forceRedraw
20:58:14 <Zakim> + +44.775.388.aaaa
20:58:22 <nikos> ... I'm not sure it does anything helpful
20:59:29 <nikos> shepazu: straw poll. Current request is to remove or netuer?
20:59:35 <nikos> heycam: I'm leaning towards just neutering
20:59:37 <ChrisL> silent neutering
20:59:44 <nikos> ... but I'm still interested to see results of Erik's removal
21:00:03 <nikos> shepazu: all in favour of neutering and speccing that it does nothing?
21:00:07 <ChrisL> +1 to silent neutering
21:00:07 <heycam> +1
21:00:23 <nikos> ... if you think something else (remove, change to may, etc), then type -1
21:00:25 <Tav> 0
21:00:25 <nikos> +1
21:00:25 <smailus> 0
21:00:27 <richardschwerdtfeger> +1
21:00:28 <shepazu> +1
21:00:32 <ChrisLittle> 0
21:00:33 <AmeliaBR> +1
21:00:34 <krit> 0-1
21:00:56 <cabanier> 0
21:00:59 <ed> I prefer dropping it completely
21:02:20 <ChrisL> zakim, who is here?
21:02:20 <Zakim> On the phone I see cabanier, heycam, ??P7, Doug_Schepers, Thomas_Smailus, stakagi, Tav, birtles, ??P18, ChrisL, nikos, +44.775.388.aaaa
21:02:22 <Zakim> On IRC I see ChrisLittle, richardschwerdtfeger, ChrisL, AmeliaBR, nikos, smailus, RRSAgent, stakagi, MarkS, Tav, shane, pdr__, krit, shepazu, cabanier, astearns, birtles,
21:02:22 <Zakim> ... TabAtkins, mihnea_____, Zakim, slightlyoff, ed, heycam, plinss, trackbot
21:03:26 <ChrisLittle> Bye
21:03:41 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:03:43 <Zakim> - +44.775.388.aaaa
21:04:15 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
21:04:47 <krit> Little, Chris
21:04:47 <krit> (good standing)
21:04:47 <krit> Picture of Chris Little
21:04:47 <krit> Met Office
21:05:07 <heycam> i remember now. sorry for not introducing you ChrisLittle :)
21:05:14 <ChrisL> our booking is indeed 12
21:05:15 <ChrisL> https://www.w3.org/Guide/1998/08/teleconference-calendar#s_6329
21:05:51 <Zakim> -nikos
21:06:12 <Zakim> +??P1
21:06:19 <nikos> Zakim, ??P1 is me
21:06:19 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:06:35 <nikos> ed: I'd prefer to remove it completely from the spec because I think it's not a good idea to have methods that don't do anything
21:06:38 <nikos> ... seems pointless
21:06:42 <nikos> ... what about content that will break?
21:06:55 <nikos> shepazu: what about content that will break?
21:06:57 <ChrisLittle> 44775388aaa was me
21:07:20 <nikos> krit: would be helpful to get use count numbers
21:07:38 <nikos> heycam: are you ok with neutering in the spec until we get the results back from the Blink test?
21:07:44 <nikos> ed: that's the right direction
21:07:54 <nikos> smailus: was this previously deprecated?
21:08:07 <Zakim> +ChrisL
21:08:08 <nikos> AmeliaBR: wasn't in 1.1 but there was the decision to deprecate in 2
21:08:29 <nikos> smailus: seems to do it well we should deprecate it first to give people time to fix their code
21:08:36 <nikos> shepazu: that's the argument towards neutering
21:08:50 <nikos> ... we could deprecate/neuter in svg 2 and remove in svg 3
21:09:02 <nikos> heycam: I'm a bit suspicious of deprecation like that having much of an effect
21:09:06 <nikos> ... think people may not notice
21:09:10 <ed> these methods haven't done anything useful for a very long time
21:09:18 <ed> in any recent browser
21:09:19 <nikos> smailus: at least you're giving a heads up
21:09:58 <nikos> ChrisL: the question is whether deprecation will cause people to remove usage
21:10:12 <nikos> heycam: do you have any history of when these became useless in Firefox?
21:10:27 <ChrisL> the problem with strict deprecation is that it is still a MUST so implementors still have to implement it and will fail tests if they do not
21:10:35 <nikos> heycam: a couple of years ago I think - forceRedraw still does something
21:11:00 <nikos> heycam: I'm happy to neuter and add a note saying it does nothing
21:11:07 <AmeliaBR> The existing SVG 2 text for the suspend methods is "This method is deprecated, and is only kept due to compatibility with legacy content. Calling this method has no effect on redrawing."
21:11:11 <nikos> ... then wait to see what the results of Eriks tests are and decide if we drop completely
21:11:16 <nikos> ... anyone happy with that plan?
21:11:27 <ChrisL> agenda?
21:11:56 <nikos> RESOLUTION: forceRedraw and suspendRedraw will be neutered/deprecated and may be removed in future depending on the results of Erik's tests in Blink?
21:12:15 <nikos> Topic: Defining or dropping SVGSVGElement.deselectAll
21:12:22 <nikos> heycam: this is a similar question
21:12:30 <nikos> ... we haven't really talked about this before
21:12:36 <nikos> ... may not need to make a decision now
21:12:49 <nikos> ... this method was meant to do something like unselect any selected text in the document
21:12:52 <nikos> ... but definition is hand wavy
21:12:54 <shepazu> q+
21:12:58 <nikos> ... think there's a clear way to define it if we want to keep it
21:13:06 <nikos> ... but I think it probably doesn't make much sense as an svg thing
21:13:11 <nikos> ... and if it's safe to remove we should do so
21:13:16 <nikos> ... if not we can define current behaviour
21:13:22 <heycam> ack shepazu
21:13:35 <nikos> shepazu: is there an equivalent in dom?
21:13:44 <nikos> heycam: equivalent would be window.getSelection.removeAllRanges
21:14:01 <nikos> shepazu: my immediate reaction is we need better defined selection behaviour
21:14:10 <nikos> ... not just for text, also for shapes, but text at a minimum
21:14:17 <nikos> ... and we should do it however dom does it
21:14:22 <nikos> ... so we should remove this particular method
21:14:35 <nikos> heycam: given discussion on the safety of removal
21:14:43 <nikos> ... is that what you'd like to do?
21:14:59 <nikos> shepazu: I doubt anyone is using this, but I'd say neuter and put warning. Deprecate in spec and remove in SVG 2
21:15:14 <nikos> s/remove in SVG 2/remove in SVG 3
21:15:15 <ChrisL> +1
21:15:42 <nikos> heycam: if nobody objects, lets resolve the same approach
21:16:47 <ChrisL> zakim, unmute yall
21:16:47 <Zakim> sorry, ChrisL, I do not know which phone connection belongs to yall
21:16:56 <Zakim> -nikos
21:17:09 <ed> my question was: are the DOM selection specs (DOMRange etc) required in svg2?
21:17:52 <Zakim> +??P1
21:17:56 <nikos> Zakim, ??P1 is me
21:17:56 <Zakim> +nikos; got it
21:19:00 <ChrisL> (debating whether text selection is required functionality in SVG2, what DOM2 and DOM4 say, etc)
21:19:40 <nikos> heycam: selection is probably more important than other APIs
21:20:22 <nikos> ed: did you consider dropping the selection methods on the text elements?
21:20:32 <nikos> heycam: No I didn't - that's where you actually select things isn't it
21:20:33 <nikos> ed: yes
21:20:36 <ed> https://svgwg.org/svg2-draft/text.html#__svg__SVGTextContentElement__selectSubString
21:20:37 <nikos> heycam: good point
21:20:50 <nikos> ... I guess I'd go for the whole set
21:21:01 <nikos> ... these are all things you can do with the selection API
21:21:18 <nikos> shepazu: I think some of these are more likely to be used
21:21:23 <nikos> ... but I think we should deprecate them at the least
21:21:38 <nikos> AmeliaBR: I think the long term goal should be to synch with whatever is happening in core DOM
21:21:48 <nikos> ... but it sounds like nobody on the call is totally sure what is happening in core DOM
21:22:05 <nikos> ... not wanting to break current scripts so deprecate the svg specific methods with the goal of using core DOM methods
21:22:15 <nikos> ... but we need to clearly work out what methods they are and in what spec
21:22:21 <nikos> heycam: what if I came back with exact equivalent
21:22:24 <nikos> ... of svg api calls
21:22:31 <nikos> ... and define ours in terms of that
21:22:38 <nikos> ... and we still deprecate and remove in future
21:22:55 <nikos> ... and tighten definition of svg calls in terms of core dom methods
21:23:02 <nikos> ... in the meantime
21:23:05 <nikos> AmeliaBR: sounds sensible to me
21:23:16 <nikos> shepazu: think it sounds sensible but think we should deprecate still
21:23:18 <nikos> heycam: agree
21:23:20 <nikos> ed: agree
21:23:41 <nikos> shepazu: we want people to realise they should be using core dom methods
21:24:09 <nikos> RESOLUTION: The SVG text selection methods will be defined in terms of selection API calls and also deprecated
21:24:40 <nikos> Topic: Doug's reminder
21:25:05 <nikos> shepazu: planning to publish something from SVG 2 accessibility API
21:25:13 <nikos> ... so if you're interested in what's going on
21:25:18 <nikos> ... you should at least look at the spec
21:25:24 <nikos> ... or if you're more interested you should attend the telcon
21:25:29 <nikos> ... Friday 9am EST US
21:25:36 <ChrisL> 3pm France
21:25:44 <nikos> ... 2PM ECT
21:25:48 <nikos> s/ECT/UCT
21:25:55 <nikos> shepazu: everyone is welcome
21:26:10 <nikos> shepazu: irc channel is #svg-a11y
21:26:20 <nikos> ... we are anticipating asking svg wg for approval to publish some time in February
21:26:29 <AmeliaBR> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/svg-aam/svg-aam.html
21:26:59 <nikos> shepazu: this is a FPWD, not perfect, but please take a look - Amelia has already given good feedback
21:27:00 <AmeliaBR> Also, there is feedback/discussion on the mailing list https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-svg-a11y/
21:27:21 <nikos> Topic: How to proceed on cleaning up chapters
21:27:29 <nikos> ChrisL: I've looked at the first chapter - lots of easy issues to close
21:27:34 <nikos> ... should I just do it?
21:27:42 <nikos> ... or do I need to propose and get agreement
21:27:50 <Zakim> -??P7
21:27:51 <nikos> heycam: I'd like people to make changes - we can look at the commit messages
21:27:55 <nikos> ... want to limit process overhead
21:28:05 <nikos> shepazu: agree
21:28:07 <ChrisL> cool, thanks
21:28:49 <nikos> shepazu: what do people think of the idea of having a telcon where people talk about changes they've made recently
21:29:07 <nikos> ... here's what I did, what comments I received, rational, etc
21:29:12 <nikos> heycam: I like that idea
21:29:22 <nikos> ... especially for things where we haven't discussed the issue previously
21:29:28 <nikos> ... would be good to give a heads up
21:29:37 <nikos> ... chairs could think about this maybe
21:29:50 <nikos> heycam: we'll keep a look out for commit emails
21:29:52 <nikos> ... and put items on the agenda
21:29:59 <Zakim> -Thomas_Smailus
21:30:01 <Zakim> -ChrisL
21:30:03 <Zakim> -cabanier
21:30:03 <Zakim> -ed
21:30:04 <Zakim> -nikos
21:30:05 <Zakim> -heycam
21:30:07 <Zakim> -Doug_Schepers
21:30:07 <Zakim> -birtles
21:30:08 <Zakim> -Tav
21:30:10 <Zakim> -stakagi
21:30:13 <nikos> RRSAgent, make minutes
21:30:13 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/22-svg-minutes.html nikos
21:30:16 <ChrisL> regrets for next week, will be at the Web Audio conference
21:30:30 <Zakim> -??P18
21:30:31 <Zakim> GA_SVGWG()3:30PM has ended
21:30:31 <Zakim> Attendees were cabanier, [IPcaller], heycam, Doug_Schepers, ed, Thomas_Smailus, birtles, Tav, stakagi, nikos, ChrisL, +44.775.388.aaaa
21:30:48 <heycam> ACTION: Cameron to enact the forceRedraw and text selection method resolutions here
21:30:49 <trackbot> Created ACTION-3698 - Enact the forceredraw and text selection method resolutions here [on Cameron McCormack - due 2015-01-29].
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