19:59:06 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:59:06 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/20-aapi-irc
19:59:08 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:59:08 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:59:10 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:59:10 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute
19:59:11 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:59:11 <trackbot> Date: 20 January 2015
19:59:49 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:59:56 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
20:00:01 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:00:01 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
20:00:08 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:00:08 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:00:26 <clown> chair: Joseph_Scheuhammer
20:00:42 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
20:01:12 <clown> agenda: this
20:01:22 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
20:01:31 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1104: (Cynthia) How to map aria-describedy when CSS display:none.
20:01:38 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1545: (Joseph) Editors' draft upddated: rowgroup exposed as "not mapped" for ATK/AT-SPI.
20:01:46 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1546/1544: (David/Cynthia) How to expose rowgroup role for IA2 and UIA.
20:01:52 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1408/ISSUE-540:  (Joseph) Email Jason Kiss about AAPI differences.
20:01:57 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:01:59 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize.
20:02:05 <clown> agenda+ Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
20:02:08 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
20:02:11 <clown> agenda+ be done.
20:02:19 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:03:01 <joanie> scribe: joanie
20:03:30 <joanie> regrets: David_Bolter
20:03:57 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:04:20 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
20:04:20 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:53 <joanie> agenda order 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8
20:05:58 <joanie> agenda?
20:06:23 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:06:23 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1408/ISSUE-540:  (Joseph) Email Jason Kiss about AAPI differences." taken up [from clown]
20:06:30 <clown> action-1408?
20:06:30 <trackbot> action-1408 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Send email to jason kiss to ask him if he could write an aapi section that describes api differences. -- due 2014-12-30 -- OPEN
20:06:30 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1408
20:07:12 <joanie> JS: This action is from a long time ago. Jason Kiss asked on one of the lists about the differences between accessibility APIs.
20:07:26 <joanie> JS: Jason thinks there should be a section in the core AAM outlining the differences.
20:07:38 <joanie> JS: This was assigned to me last Jan at the face to face.
20:07:51 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/wai-xtech/2014Apr/0008.html
20:07:53 <joanie> JS: I then asked about it here and followed up with Jason via email.
20:09:27 <clown> isseu-540?
20:09:34 <clown> issue-540?
20:09:34 <trackbot> issue-540 -- Should the UAIG have a section to describe the API differences -- open
20:09:34 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/540
20:09:49 <joanie> JS: The associated issue, is issue-540.
20:10:16 <joanie> JS: Jason there mentioned the differences between OS X mappings for aria-label, aria-labelledby, and aria-describedby.
20:10:26 <joanie> JS: At the last meeting, we all agreed to do this.
20:10:34 <joanie> JS: Then we decided to ask Jason to do so.
20:10:44 <joanie> JS: Jason agreed to take an initial stab at it.
20:11:06 <joanie> (JS reads/summarizes from email)
20:11:22 <joanie> JS: Jason wants us all to help him with our various platforms.
20:11:56 <joanie> JS: Ideas?
20:12:14 <joanie> JD: I think it's a good idea in general, but isn't that already addressed via the mapping tables?
20:12:30 <joanie> JS: Yes, but I asked Jason and he suggested more text and suggestions would be helpful.
20:12:49 <joanie> JS: I think it makes sense to invite Jason to join us at some of these meetings.
20:13:14 <joanie> JS: Therefore, I'd like to close Action-1408 as done, leaving the issue (540) open.
20:13:34 <joanie> JS: Then I'll reply to his email suggesting he go ahead and start, but see if he's able to join our meetings on occasion.
20:14:14 <joanie> RESOLUTION: Group agrees to close action-1408 and follow-up with Jason. (Which Joseph will do.)
20:16:00 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:16:00 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1545: (Joseph) Editors' draft upddated: rowgroup exposed as "not mapped" for ATK/AT-SPI." taken up [from clown]
20:16:05 <clown> action-1545?
20:16:05 <trackbot> action-1545 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for atk/atspi is accurate -- due 2015-01-20 -- CLOSED
20:16:05 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545
20:16:14 <joanie> JS: This is just an update from last week.
20:16:32 <joanie> JS: We had agreed that the ATK/AT-SPI mapping for rowgroup was "not mapped."
20:16:37 <joanie> JS: The text is....
20:16:50 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-rowgroup
20:16:52 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:17:45 <joanie> JS: Now both ATK/AT-SPI and AX API share the "not mapped" mapping. This is not a change for AX API.
20:17:50 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:17:50 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree." taken up [from clown]
20:18:28 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here.
20:21:56 <joanie> Topic: Action 1320
20:21:58 <joanie> action-1320
20:21:58 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2015-01-20 -- OPEN
20:21:58 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
20:22:25 <joanie> JS: I think I left it there because there was discussion last week regarding whether or not Rich wanted an action to talk to Freedom Scientific about this.
20:22:42 <joanie> JS: I'm going to move this back a week and bring it back in case richardschwerdtfeger is still here.
20:24:30 <joanie> Topic: Action 1553
20:24:33 <joanie> action-1553
20:24:33 <trackbot> action-1553 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="searchbox" -- due 2015-01-21 -- OPEN
20:24:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1553
20:25:05 <joanie> JS: Ok, this makes perfect sense to me.
20:25:51 <joanie> JS: I'll try to have this done for next meeting.
20:26:37 <joanie> Topic: Action 1562
20:26:41 <joanie> action-1562
20:26:41 <trackbot> action-1562 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Provide ATK/AT-SPI2 mapping for role="switch" -- due 2015-01-22 -- OPEN
20:26:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1562
20:27:30 <joanie> JS: There was a discussion about the name/value on switches versus toggle buttons.
20:29:07 <joanie> JS and BG: When this first came up we had questions about why we need this role instead of switch.
20:29:28 <joanie> JS: I forget the exact justification James Craig provided but I think he convinced me. :)
20:29:46 <joanie> JS: I'd also like to see role toggle button in ARIA.
20:29:54 <joanie> JS: I'd try to do this action too.
20:30:21 <joanie> Topic: Bryan's Email related to native checkboxes and mixed state
20:30:59 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2014Dec/0162.html
20:31:47 <joanie> (Group reads email above)
20:32:38 <joanie> JS: Native host semantics don't trump ARIA on states and properties.
20:32:38 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_conflicts
20:32:43 <joanie> JS: (See above)
20:34:43 <joanie> s/See above/Reads from above/
20:35:05 <joanie> JS: So in this particular case (Bryan), if the HTML spec says you can't do that, then you can't do that.
20:35:12 <joanie> BG: Does it say you can't do it?
20:35:42 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/
20:35:54 <joanie> JS: (Looks at input from above spec)
20:36:27 <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/html/forms.html#checkbox-state-%28type=checkbox%29
20:36:57 <joanie> Allowed ARIA state and property attributes:
20:36:57 <joanie> Global aria-* attributes
20:36:58 <joanie> Any aria-* attributes applicable to the allowed roles.
20:37:17 <joanie> JS: So I think your example with mixed is valid. I'd have to check it.
20:38:21 <joanie> (Discussion about styling)
20:38:59 <joanie> BG: It's a boolean property, so you can't do mixed/between them.
20:39:35 <joanie> JS: Someone (Paciello Group?) has a document outlining suggestions about when it's best to use ARIA.
20:40:07 <joanie> JS: And when the form is submitted, the ARIA value wouldn't be included.
20:40:46 <joanie> BG: It's probably easier just to style it.
20:40:57 <joanie> JS: In terms of the spec, it seems to be allowed.
20:41:14 <joanie> BG: If that's true, it doesn't seem to be done correctly by any of the APIs.
20:42:04 <joanie> (Group laments lack of tri-state checkboxes)
20:42:29 <joanie> JS: (Reads from Alex Surkov's response on-list)
20:43:08 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:43:21 <joanie> Topic: Menus
20:43:36 <joanie> BG: On the authoring guide, we're talking about menus best practices.
20:43:52 <joanie> BG: James and Matt believe persistent state menus should be allowed. I'm less certain.
20:44:15 <joanie> BG: If you look at the UAIG, it says there are certain properties that only exist only when the menu is rendered.
20:44:27 <joanie> BG: Does that sound accurate?
20:44:30 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#mapping_events_menus
20:44:53 <joanie> JS: I don't know what the phrase "persistent menu" means.
20:45:11 <joanie> BG: When you open the page, the properties are already there.
20:45:18 <joanie> BG: You can get to them via the keyboard.
20:45:26 <joanie> BG: But they're not dynamically rendered.
20:45:36 <joanie> JS: So it doesn't behave anything like a menu.
20:45:40 <joanie> BG: Correct.
20:45:47 <joanie> JS: But it's declared as a menu.
20:45:49 <joanie> BG: Correct.
20:45:59 <joanie> JS: So your question is, is it going to fire these events?
20:46:17 <joanie> JS: There's no menu-start event because it's always on -- or maybe it's there upon load.
20:46:44 <joanie> JS: I'm using the MSAA event names btw.
20:46:58 <joanie> JS: As you navigate the menu, it's supposed to fire focus events.
20:47:10 <joanie> BG: I think that would fire correctly as you navigate into it.
20:47:24 <joanie> BG: But there's no platform equivalent of automatically-opening menus.
20:47:40 <joanie> BG: The other question they were asking was about the difference between a menu bar and menu.
20:47:56 <joanie> BG: Because from this list it doesn't look like there's any differences in events triggered.
20:48:06 <joanie> JS: Menu bars trigger the start; menus don't.
20:48:35 <joanie> JS: If focus shifts to the menubar, that should trigger the menu start event.
20:48:46 <joanie> JS: When you leave the menubar, the menu end event occurs.
20:49:29 <joanie> BG: They were saying that functionally there wasn't any difference between the two.
20:49:36 <joanie> JS: Do you have an example?
20:49:42 <joanie> BG: I have a hypothetical one.
20:50:07 <joanie> BG: James was talking about if you have a complex header navigation structure with nested lists, you could have role="menu" for each nested list.
20:50:47 <joanie> BG: And you'd have role=menuitem for the links.
20:51:29 <joanie> BG: The problem is that if you put role=menu on the ul, the structure is lost.
20:51:47 <joanie> BG: Menus themselves are not identified like regions.
20:52:10 <joanie> BG: So if you're in applications mode, you're fine. Otherwise you cannot tell where one menu ends and another begins.
20:52:55 <joanie> BG: A header structre that's five levels deep with hundreds of items, and all you want is "login," that's really hard.
20:53:02 <joanie> s/structre/structure/
20:53:20 <joanie> BG: What kind of API issues might be involved in doing that?
20:53:36 <joanie> JS: I find it odd to call these things menus, myself.
20:54:18 <joanie> JS: The point of ARIA was: You have some markup which was styled to look like menus and menu bars and it reacted to input events like it was a menu and menu bar.
20:54:31 <joanie> JS: But there was nothing to tell assistive technologies that was what it was.
20:54:36 <joanie> BG: Precisely
20:55:01 <joanie> JS: But in this example, it doesn't behave like a menu to begin with.
20:55:09 <joanie> JS: So why do you want to do this?
20:56:00 <joanie> JS: James wants to move past them quickly?
20:56:03 <joanie> BG: Yes.
20:56:07 <joanie> JS: Is it a tree then?
20:56:23 <joanie> BG: It's one flat series of links I think.
20:57:34 <joanie> JS: Conclusion, I need to see an example.
20:57:49 <joanie> JS: There's a lot to investigate.
20:58:02 <joanie> BG: I think Matt built a small demo and it wasn't working for him either.
20:58:51 <joanie> JS: Java Swing allowed you, if you had a menu popped open, to jump quickly by typing the name.
20:59:25 <joanie> JS: Native Mac menus do this too.
21:03:16 <bgaraventa1979> sorry got booted
21:03:33 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
21:03:53 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:03:54 <Zakim> leaving.  As of this point the attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:03:54 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:04:02 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop