19:54:11 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #aapi
19:54:11 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/13-aapi-irc
19:54:13 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs member
19:54:13 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #aapi
19:54:15 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be WAI_PF
19:54:15 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM scheduled to start in 6 minutes
19:54:16 <trackbot> Meeting: Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
19:54:16 <trackbot> Date: 13 January 2015
19:54:50 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has now started
19:54:57 <Zakim> +[GVoice]
19:55:01 <clown> zakim, GVoice is Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:01 <Zakim> +Joseph_Scheuhammer; got it
19:55:07 <clown> zakim, I am Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:07 <Zakim> ok, clown, I now associate you with Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:12 <clown> chair:  Joseph_Scheuhammer
19:55:31 <clown> agenda: this
19:55:37 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree.
19:55:44 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1544/1545/1546: (Cynthia/Joanie/David) How to expose rowgroup role.
19:55:53 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize.
19:55:59 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal javascript at-spi2 test automation.
19:56:06 <clown> agenda+ ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss role="group" at caucus telcon.
19:56:12 <clown> agenda+ Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23
19:56:17 <clown> agenda+ be done.
19:56:53 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/13-aapi-minutes.html clown
20:02:55 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
20:03:33 <Zakim> +Bryan_Garaventa
20:05:41 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:05:56 <bgaraventa1979> bgaraventa1979 has joined #aapi
20:06:22 <bgaraventa1979> zakim, I am Bryan_Garaventa
20:06:22 <Zakim> ok, bgaraventa1979, I now associate you with Bryan_Garaventa
20:06:50 <joanie> scribenick:joanie
20:06:57 <Zakim> +Rich_Schwerdtfeger
20:14:41 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 1
20:14:41 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree." taken up [from clown]
20:15:31 <joanie> Zakim, take up item 2
20:15:31 <Zakim> agendum 2. "ACTION-1544/1545/1546: (Cynthia/Joanie/David) How to expose rowgroup role." taken up [from clown]
20:15:41 <clown> action-1545?
20:15:41 <trackbot> action-1545 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Make sure the rowgroup mapping for atk/atspi is accurate -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
20:15:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1545
20:15:52 <joanie> JS: Likely, the only one here who can say anything is Joanie.
20:16:07 <joanie> RS: Is this where we decide if it goes to section?
20:16:16 <joanie> JS: Might be. This didn't used to be mapped at all.
20:16:44 <clown> issue-635?
20:16:44 <trackbot> issue-635 -- Determine if uaig mappings for rowgroup are correct -- open
20:16:44 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/635
20:16:47 <joanie> JD: Why would we want to map this? We don't for HTML.
20:17:23 <joanie> JS: I think at some point Mozilla decided to map it to group in IA2 at least.
20:17:30 <joanie> RS: I don't know why; it just happened.
20:18:07 <joanie> RS: Actually, it *may* be that Freedom Scientific asked for everything in the DOM be in the accessibility tree so they don't have to keep going back to the DOM.
20:18:28 <joanie> RS: They want to try to get rid of that.
20:18:41 <joanie> JS: The point of the accessibility tree is to not include things that are needed.
20:19:04 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#rowGroup
20:19:11 <joanie> JD: I'd like it to be not mapped.
20:19:28 <joanie> JS: It's currently mapped to ROLE_PANEL.
20:19:32 <clown> scribenick: clown
20:19:49 <clown> JD:  Panel is a generic group of stuff.
20:20:14 <clown> JD:  You need a fairly predicatable accessibiltiy tree.
20:21:03 <clown> RS:  What if we take role="section", and make it non-abstract.
20:21:20 <clown> RS:  And then add sections to the tree.
20:21:33 <clown> JD:  Tables do not contain sections, unless they are in a table cell.
20:21:44 <clown> RS:  There is a <rowgroup> in html.
20:21:54 <clown> RS:  If there is a need to map that to a role.
20:22:14 <clown> RS:  Then, map it to a seciton, a generic container that has no real meaning.
20:22:42 <clown> JD:  But a div is a block of text.
20:23:02 <clown> JD: I don't want this in a table heirarchy.
20:23:40 <clown> JD:  I think the correct mapping of rowgroup is "not mapped" on ATK/AT-SPI.
20:24:39 <clown> RS:  I don't want <div>s in the hierarchy if they are meaningless.
20:24:50 <clown> JS: A <div> is a generic container.
20:25:05 <clown> RS:  You should just look at such <div>s and discard them.
20:25:41 <clown> RS:  What does AX does this?
20:25:50 <clown> JS/JD:  it's not mapped.
20:26:45 <clown> RS:  We should ask Alex why rowgroup was mapped by FF.
20:31:28 <joanie> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
20:31:43 <clown> JD:  I have updated my action to say that rowgroup is not mapped for ATK/AT-SPI.
20:34:32 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
20:34:45 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html#el-tbody
20:34:54 <joanie> scribenick: joanie
20:35:12 <joanie> JS: According to the above, (reads mappings for tbody)
20:35:37 <joanie> JS: So why is rowgroup in ARIA?
20:35:38 <clown> http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#rowgroup
20:36:32 <joanie> RS: Alex. So people could create custom grids.
20:36:44 <joanie> JS: I can see it for treegrids, but grids?
20:37:35 <joanie> JS: I have my answer to ATK/AT-SPI2. Assign the action to me, Joanie, and I'll change the mapping
20:38:11 <joanie> JS: I'll try to do this in the next week, so January 20th.
20:38:22 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:38:22 <Zakim> agendum 1. "ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree." taken up [from clown]
20:38:36 <joanie> Zakim, close item 1
20:38:36 <Zakim> agendum 1, ACTION-842: (Cynthia) Create a diagram to support section 1.2 A11Y vs DOM tree., closed
20:38:37 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:38:38 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:38:38 <Zakim> 3. ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize. [from clown]
20:38:38 <Zakim> agendum 3. "ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize." taken up [from clown]
20:38:48 <joanie> JS: Cynthia is not here.
20:38:52 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:38:52 <Zakim> agendum 3 was just opened, joanie
20:38:55 <joanie> Zakim, close item 3
20:38:55 <Zakim> agendum 3, ACTION-1373/ISSUE-441: (Cynthia) Test case for aria-posinset with only some explicit aria-setsize., closed
20:38:57 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:38:58 <Zakim> I see 4 items remaining on the agenda; the next one is
20:38:58 <Zakim> 4. ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal javascript at-spi2 test automation. [from clown]
20:38:58 <Zakim> agendum 4. "ACTION-1533: (Joanie) Investigate minimal javascript at-spi2 test automation." taken up [from clown]
20:39:14 <joanie> JD: I've not had time to get to this yet. Sorry!
20:40:18 <joanie> JD: I'm pushing this back to 3 March as it's a nice-to-have.
20:40:33 <clown> action-1533?
20:40:33 <trackbot> action-1533 -- Joanmarie Diggs to Investigate and possibly create a minimal/skeleton javascript at-spi2 listener with the aim of automating the 1.1 tests. -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN
20:40:33 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1533
20:41:33 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:41:33 <Zakim> agendum 5. "ACTION-1515/ISSUE-678: (Rich) Discuss role="group" at caucus telcon." taken up [from clown]
20:41:38 <clown> action-1515?
20:41:38 <trackbot> action-1515 -- Richard Schwerdtfeger to Discuss issue-678 at the mon aria teleconference. -- due 2014-12-09 -- OPEN
20:41:38 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1515
20:41:55 <joanie> RS: I was on the call, I'm trying.
20:42:17 <joanie> JS: This was set to Dec 9th, so I thought we should re-raise it.
20:42:31 <joanie> RS: I think Cynthia said we should get back to her in a month, so February.
20:42:43 <joanie> JS: February 24th?
20:43:20 <joanie> RS: If we can have these things be role of section. Then HTML5 section maps to section. Unless you put a label on it, you map it to role region.
20:43:28 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/core-aam/core-aam.html#role-map-group
20:43:41 <joanie> RS: Div then would also map to this. It makes it very clean. There's some structure preserved.
20:44:03 <joanie> JS: We're talking about the group role.
20:44:25 <joanie> RS: On the Mac, AXGroup would then not be for every single div, etc.
20:44:45 <joanie> JS: So you don't need to fix the mapping for group, but everything else that maps to group?
20:44:51 <joanie> RS: On the Mac, yes.
20:45:46 <clown> issue-678?
20:45:46 <trackbot> issue-678 -- What is the ideal mapping for the aria group role, such that it does not semantically conflict with the generic group role on AAPIs, e.g., AXAPI and UIA. -- open
20:45:46 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/678
20:46:03 <joanie> JD: I'm not sure it will be quite that straightforward on the Mac, but I agree that the approach makes sense.
20:46:30 <joanie> RS: We need to have a chat with James about this.
20:46:47 <joanie> RS and JS: Maybe we can discuss this at an ARIA call with him.
20:48:16 <joanie> Zakim, next item
20:48:16 <Zakim> agendum 6. "Continue with ACTIONs/ISSUEs for core-aam 1.1: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/products/23" taken up [from clown]
20:48:41 <clown> action-1320?
20:48:41 <trackbot> action-1320 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Consider mapping the "offscreen" api properties in the situation of aria-hidden="false" on non-rendered elements. -- due 2014-12-23 -- OPEN
20:48:41 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1320
20:49:12 <joanie> TOPIC: Action-1320
20:49:27 <joanie> JS: This was my attempt at coming up with a compromise.
20:49:51 <joanie> JS: Firefox didn't want to take aria-hidden:false that it should be exposed in the accessibility tree if it had no display properties.
20:50:15 <joanie> JS: The use case I provided at the time was that it was a better way to accomplish the off-screen stuff.
20:50:54 <clown> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-wai-pf/2014JanMar/0001.html
20:51:23 <joanie> JS: (reads text from above link)
20:52:26 <joanie> RS: I've seen where aria-hidden is of value when it's true.
20:52:44 <joanie> JS: Do you have any problem with a mismatch between the display properties and aria-hidden?
20:52:54 <joanie> RS: You do have a mismatch already.
20:53:39 <joanie> JS: They use an object attribute, but they don't remove it from the accessibility tree.
20:54:05 <joanie> RS: ATs ignore it when they see aria-hidden="true". I don't know about false.
20:54:16 <joanie> RS: Want me to ask Freedom Scientific?
20:54:19 <joanie> JS: Sure
20:55:39 <joanie> BG: Steve and James want a literal opposite of aria-hidden="true".
20:56:06 <richardschwerdtfeger> richardschwerdtfeger has joined #aapi
20:56:11 <joanie> BG: So when you have something with display:none, aria-hidden="false" is still exposed to ATs.
20:56:34 <joanie> BG: JAWS is already doing this. At least for IE.
20:57:13 <joanie> JS: To follow-up, Firefox doesn't want to do it. So I asked them to treat it like off-screen positioning.
21:00:37 <clown> http://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/issue-688/aria/aria.html#aria-hidden
21:01:11 <joanie> JD: My problem with aria-hidden="false" is that it essentially forces screen readers to have some sort of alternative presentation.
21:02:18 <joanie> JD: Because any screen reader which is relying upon presenting the content to the user as the user navigates via native user-agent support will never encounter aria-hidden="false" content.
21:02:33 <joanie> JD: In the case of off-screen content, it's just a sad hack in my opinion.
21:03:13 <joanie> JD: As soon as we bless aria-hidden="false", it's like we're saying it's valid and appropriate to have special, separate-but-equal content.
21:03:26 <clown> issue-688?
21:03:26 <trackbot> issue-688 -- Aria-hidden=false is ambiguous regarding inheritance to descendant elements -- raised
21:03:26 <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/issues/688
21:03:47 <joanie> JD: And if that is done, screen-readers that do not provide a separate-but-equal rendering will seem "broken" wrt the spec.
21:04:24 <joanie> JD: Thus you are forcing non-native interaction to be implemented for all screen readers wishing to be conformant.
21:04:52 <joanie> JD: As a result, I find aria-hidden="false" objectionable. It is NOT the same as aria-hidden="true".
21:04:56 <joanie> JD: For what it's worth.
21:05:11 <joanie> RS: Do I have an action item to content Freedom Scientific or not?
21:06:39 <joanie> JS: Ask if the want it offscreen or not in the tree.
21:06:47 <joanie> s/the want/they want/
21:07:03 <joanie> JS: Offscreen is things like list items which are scrolled off screen.
21:07:28 <joanie> JS: Another option is negative coordinates, so the sighted user never sees it. But the AT does.
21:08:08 <joanie> BG: The use case for off-screen is the skip links.
21:08:18 <joanie> BG: In that case it needs to be in the tree.
21:08:41 <joanie> JS: I'll create an action some time tomorrow for you (Rich)
21:09:40 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
21:09:41 <Zakim> -Bryan_Garaventa
21:09:43 <Zakim> -Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:09:43 <Zakim> -Joseph_Scheuhammer
21:09:44 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(AAPI)3:00PM has ended
21:09:44 <Zakim> Attendees were Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
21:10:08 <joanie> Zakim, part
21:10:08 <Zakim> Zakim has left #aapi
21:10:19 <joanie> RRSAgent, stop