14:53:08 RRSAgent has joined #xproc 14:53:08 logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/07-xproc-irc 14:53:11 Zakim has joined #xproc 14:53:15 zakim, this will be xproc 14:53:15 ok, Norm; I see XML_PMWG()10:00AM scheduled to start in 7 minutes 14:53:16 rrsagent, set logs world-visible 14:53:16 Meeting: XML Processing Model WG 14:53:16 Agenda: http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/01/07-agenda 14:53:16 Date: 7 January 2015 14:53:16 Meeting: 262 14:53:18 Chair: Norm 14:53:20 Scribe: Norm 14:53:22 ScribeNick: Norm 14:56:08 jfuller has joined #xproc 14:56:49 zakim, code? 14:56:49 the conference code is 97762 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Norm 14:58:27 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has now started 14:58:34 + +1.650.655.aaaa 14:59:01 zakim, aaaa is Box 14:59:01 +Box; got it 14:59:14 zakim, Box contains Norm, jfuller 14:59:14 +Norm, jfuller; got it 14:59:35 zakim, help 14:59:36 Please refer to http://www.w3.org/2001/12/zakim-irc-bot for more detailed help. 14:59:36 Some of the commands I know are: 14:59:36 xxx is yyy - establish yyy as the name of unknown party xxx 14:59:36 if yyy is 'me' or 'I', your nick is substituted 14:59:36 xxx may be yyy - establish yyy as possibly the name of unknown party xxx 14:59:37 I am xxx - establish your nick as the name of unknown party xxx 14:59:38 xxx holds yyy [, zzz ...] - establish xxx as a group name and yyy, etc. as participants within that group 14:59:38 xxx also holds yyy - add yyy to the list of participants in group xxx 14:59:38 who's here? - lists the participants on the phone 14:59:38 who's muted? - lists the participants who are muted 14:59:38 mute xxx - mutes party xxx (like pressing 61#) 14:59:38 unmute xxx - reverses the effect of "mute" and of 61# 14:59:41 is xxx here? - reports whether a party named like xxx is present 14:59:41 list conferences - reports the active conferences 14:59:41 this is xxx - associates this channel with conference xxx 14:59:41 excuse us - disconnects from the irc channel 14:59:41 I last learned something new on $Date: 2013-03-03 19:18:47 $ 14:59:49 I am Jfuller 14:59:54 zakim, I am jfuller 14:59:54 sorry, jfuller, I do not see a party named 'jfuller' 15:00:01 zakim, who's here? 15:00:01 On the phone I see Box 15:00:03 Box has Norm, jfuller 15:00:03 On IRC I see jfuller, Zakim, RRSAgent, Norm 15:00:03 ht has joined #xproc 15:00:11 zakim, list conferences 15:00:11 I see Team_W3M()8:00AM, Team_(pubrules)14:00Z, IA_Fonts()10:00AM, XML_PMWG()10:00AM active 15:00:13 also scheduled at this time are Team_SysWeb()10:00AM, UW_WebTVIG()9:00AM, WAI_RDWG()9:30AM, SW_HCLS(LODD)10:15AM, DATA_CSVWG()10:00AM 15:01:01 +??P20 15:01:13 alexmilowski has joined #xproc 15:02:22 lcahlander has joined #xproc 15:02:28 Ringing ... ringing ... hangup 15:02:30 Now muted at desktop -- any help? 15:02:34 Yes 15:02:37 Hmm 15:02:41 Disappointing 15:02:58 +Alex_Milows 15:03:06 +Loren_Cahlander 15:03:22 Present: Norm, Jim, Henry, Alex, Loren 15:05:32 Topic: Accept this agenda? 15:05:32 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2015/01/07-agenda 15:05:36 Accepted. 15:05:39 Topic: Accept minutes from the previous meeting? 15:05:39 -> http://www.w3.org/XML/XProc/2014/12/10-minutes 15:05:47 Accepted. 15:05:50 Topic: Next meeting 15:06:01 Proposed: 14 January 2015 15:06:04 No regrets heard. 15:06:07 Topic: Review of open action items 15:06:19 Alex reports no progress on his items. 15:06:28 Jim reports no progress on his items. 15:06:48 Topic: Reviewing binary support 15:10:39 Norm reviews the idea of having "XML stub documents" to represent non-XML documents in the pipeline. 15:10:45 Jim: What about the base URI? 15:10:48 http://www.w3.org/TR/xpath-datamodel/#DocumentNode 15:10:53 Norm: It is what it is. 15:12:23 Alex: I think maybe we could use a stub "XDM Document" to represent binaries. 15:13:08 ...If you access the children you get a base64 encoded representation or a JSON blob or some such. 15:14:03 ...That would leave open the possibility of unification later; you'd still have the concept of a document node but you'd have other kinds of children. 15:14:18 ...JSON could be represented with semi-structured data. 15:14:30 ...But that's the future, all we want today is properties, right? 15:14:32 Norm: Yes. 15:15:02 Jim: Is this possibly a little bit too much sausage making. From a first-principles point of view, we're allowing non-XML documents to flow. 15:15:16 ...From a pipeline author's point of view, they're just going to get a binary document. 15:15:28 ...To me the simplest thing is a binary flowing through. 15:15:46 What is "this proposal" ? 15:15:53 ...Are we saying that we're passing references around? This is more implementation level detail. 15:16:43 Alex: I'm not sure what you mean. The proposal Norm outlined is a variation of something I proposed a long time ago that you can find in the archives. 15:17:04 ...What I'm saying today on the call is that we can do it with XDM document nodes. 15:17:46 ...I think there's room in the current XDM to create some kind of Document node that has "on demand" content. 15:20:24 Alex: Of course, we run the risk that someone will say we have to fix these things in the XDM. 15:20:39 ...I'd like it to be possible for vendors to use extensions to the XDM to represent things like JSON if they wanted to. 15:22:28 Norm waffles a bit about how implementors will react to this. 15:22:33 Not clear to me why the string value isn't always empty 15:23:48 Alex: What about plain text? 15:24:24 Norm: I think those can just be Document nodes with a single Text node child. That's what XSLT does. 15:25:01 Alex: There are two issues here: there's a story about random media types that you have and how they map into a Document node and then there's a possibly not-normative description of what you do with text/plain. 15:27:25 Henry: I'm on a fine red line here. These are not XML documents, these are not XDM nodes, there is no string content, it's always empty. There's an accessor to get at the content. 15:28:01 ...It's a recipe for confusion if there's any sort of flexibility here at all. 15:29:20 Some discussion of text/plain documents. 15:30:01 Alex: For semi-structured data like JSON, I want it to be possible for implementors to extend the XDM in ways to access JSON. 15:30:21 phone call , mus take 15:30:59 Sorry, back now 15:32:01 Norm gives a little background about extending the XDM to JSON. 15:32:19 Henry: Fine, we can do that in XProc 2.1. I think we need a complete and straightforward story about what these documents contain. 15:32:42 ...Extending the XDM is a new version of the spec. 15:33:01 Alex: I understand the concerns, we can make an issue about that. 15:35:13 Jim: To help us with the story, I think we're jumping around a bit in use cases. Would it be good to create a set of pipelines that demonstrate some of these use cases. 15:36:15 ...how far do we think this is going to go. 15:36:27 ...Are we going to run p:viewport over binary documents? 15:36:35 Alex: I think the simplest use case is just the ability to get the base URI. 15:38:01 Norm: No, p:viewport only operates on XML, lots of steps only process XML. 15:39:01 Some discussion of ZIP file manipulation. 15:39:49 Some discussion of filtering p:for-each based on media type. 15:41:40 Jim: There's a JSON use case, packaged up stuff (EPUB, zips), image processing use case. 15:41:43 ...Anything else? 15:42:07 ACTION: A-262-01 Jim to attempt to describe these use cases, write demonstration pipelines. 15:42:17 Alex: I think we should be explicit about the text/plain case. 15:43:14 Norm: I think the next step is to consider what violence it does to the spec to attempt to describe binaries as having stub XDM Document nodes. 15:43:21 Topic: Any other business? 15:44:09 xml prague 15:44:10 http://www.xmlprague.cz/sessions2015/ 15:45:38 Alex: I think we should have some working pipelines that show off AVTs and stuff. 15:47:04 ...Maybe you (Norm) can send an email outlining what you think we should cover. 15:47:51 Adjourned. 15:47:54 -ht 15:47:56 -Box 15:47:58 -Loren_Cahlander 15:48:00 -Alex_Milows 15:48:00 XML_PMWG()10:00AM has ended 15:48:00 Attendees were +1.650.655.aaaa, Norm, jfuller, ht, Alex_Milows, Loren_Cahlander 15:48:01 rrsagent, set logs world visible 15:48:04 rrsagent, draft minutes 15:48:04 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2015/01/07-xproc-minutes.html Norm 15:48:18 ht has left #xproc 17:29:01 Zakim has left #xproc 18:40:34 liam has joined #xproc