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16:23:51 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2015/01/07-css-irc
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16:25:44 <glazou> Zakim, this will be Style
16:25:44 <Zakim> ok, glazou; I see Style_CSS FP()12:00PM scheduled to start in 35 minutes
16:25:52 <glazou> RRSAgent, make logs public
16:26:49 <glazou> glazou has changed the topic to: logs: https://log.csswg.org/irc.w3.org/css/today - 2015-01-07 telcon ; no agenda this week, see w3c-css-wg for explanation
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16:56:49 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has now started
16:56:56 <Zakim> +dael
16:57:17 <Zakim> + +1.479.764.aaaa
16:57:23 <Florian> Zakim, I am aaaa
16:57:23 <Zakim> +Florian; got it
16:57:42 <Zakim> +dauwhe
16:58:00 <Zakim> +Lea
16:58:02 <Zakim> + +1.206.675.aabb
16:58:09 <astearns> zakim, aabb is adobe-seattle
16:58:09 <Zakim> +adobe-seattle; got it
16:58:22 <astearns> zakim, adobe-seattle has astearns, fantasai
16:58:22 <Zakim> +astearns, fantasai; got it
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16:58:55 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:59:13 <bcampbell> IPCaller is me
16:59:15 <glazou_> glazou_ has joined #css
16:59:35 <dael> zakim, IPCaller is bcampbell
16:59:35 <Zakim> +bcampbell; got it
16:59:43 <astearns> zakim, adobe-seattle has sylvaing, cabanier
16:59:43 <Zakim> +sylvaing, cabanier; got it
16:59:56 <Zakim> + +33.1.39.21.aacc
17:00:02 <glazou_> Zakim, aacc is me
17:00:02 <Zakim> +glazou_; got it
17:00:15 <Zakim> +krit
17:00:16 <zcorpan> zcorpan has joined #css
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17:00:26 <Zakim> +??P18
17:00:33 <antonp> Zakim, ??P18 is me
17:00:33 <Zakim> +antonp; got it
17:00:51 <Zakim> +Plh
17:01:09 <Zakim> +BradK
17:01:18 <Zakim> +dbaron
17:02:12 <Zakim> +vivien
17:02:15 <Zakim> +??P22
17:02:31 <Zakim> +SteveZ
17:02:33 <antenna> antenna has joined #css
17:02:34 <zcorpan> Zakim: p22 is zcorpan
17:02:38 <Zakim> + +1.519.513.aadd
17:02:40 <zcorpan> Zakim, p22 is zcorpan
17:02:40 <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named 'p22'
17:02:50 <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P22 is zcorpan
17:02:50 <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
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17:04:06 <Zakim> +smfr
17:04:48 <dael> glazou: Let's start.
17:05:14 <dael> glazou: I'm sorry about the agenda today. As I said, the events in Paris disrupted the work day. The emotion in tremendous.
17:05:54 <dael> glazou: Back to the message, there were two things to discuss. The date of the May meeting, we need to resolve on that. As I said from the outline, the number of seats on planes is declining in Europe because it's vacation.
17:06:24 <dael> glazou: WE resolved to have it in NYC between 18-22 May hosted by Bloomburg, but we don't have exact days. andrey are you on the call?
17:06:42 <dael> glazou: Let's wait on him, but we can say if we have blockers or pref on days. I prefer the first three days of the week.
17:06:51 <dael> glazou: Other people?
17:06:55 <astearns> no preference
17:06:56 <dael> dauwhe: First 3 days is fine.
17:07:02 <dael> glazou: People flying from CA?
17:07:05 <andrey_r> andrey_r has joined #css
17:07:13 <dael> dbaron: I'm happy with beginning b/c it's closer to the AC meeting
17:07:33 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
17:07:36 <dael> glazou: No obj if we resolve on first three days? Andrey said he was booking a room for the whole week
17:07:54 <SteveZ> +1 for first 3 days
17:07:54 <Zakim> +??P32
17:07:57 <SimonSapin> Zakim, ??P32 is me
17:07:57 <Zakim> +SimonSapin; got it
17:07:59 <dael> RESOLVED: Meet 18, 19, 20 of May in NYC hosted by bloomberg
17:08:03 <Zakim> +[Bloomberg]
17:08:13 <dael> glazou: The 2nd item...oh bloomberg.
17:08:27 <dael> glazou: We suggested to have the main meeting 18, 19 20. Is that okay?
17:08:32 <dael> andrey: Yes.
17:08:42 <dael> glazou: Wonderful. Let's consider it closed.
17:08:48 <Bert> (Not sure I can come: Also WWW2015 the same week...)
17:08:54 <dael> andrey: I'll have room for 30 people. Is that enough?
17:09:03 <dael> glazou: I think so. It might limit observers.
17:09:06 <Zakim> +??P35
17:09:15 <dael> glazou: Let's set up the wiki ASAP and we'll see how it goes with number.
17:09:21 <dael> glazou: We'll need hotel rec from you.
17:09:23 <BradK> BradK has joined #CSS
17:09:25 <dael> andrey: sure.
17:09:49 <dael> glazou: Second thing is an action on everyone, we need agenda items for Sydney for CSS and Houdini. Please go to the wiki and add items.
17:10:02 <dael> glazou: Now I'm ready for whatever people want to disucss.
17:10:08 <tantek> tantek has joined #css
17:10:14 <dael> glazou: I think fantasai wanted something and Florian said something about CSS3 UI.
17:10:21 <fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/sydney-2015
17:10:31 <dael> Florian: I have a bunch on that and one on Selectors, I have a lot so I don't want to take all the time.
17:10:38 <dael> Topic: Psuedo Elements
17:10:50 <Zakim> + +1.631.398.aaee
17:11:03 <tantek> good morning
17:11:03 <tantek> called in a few minutes ago
17:11:13 <dael> fantasai: There's a couple of things. One is the OM section, do we want FPWD with that and do we want an issue or note about the status of that and we're not sure if it's right. I'd like to know what to do with the OM section.
17:11:13 <tantek> Zakim, ??P35 is me
17:11:13 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:11:18 <BradK> Link?
17:11:19 <dael> fantasai: There's one or two more issues.
17:11:29 <tantek> zakim, mute me
17:11:29 <Zakim> tantek should now be muted
17:11:34 <Zakim> +hober
17:11:36 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#cssom
17:11:49 <dael> glazou: The OM section, the OM od CSS I think we're going to discuss during houdini meeting. It seems there's a concern about the state of what we have now and we want to revamp it.
17:12:00 <BradK> Thanks
17:12:05 <dael> ??: There's already an issue in the section.
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17:12:21 <dael> glazou: and it's a FPWD anyway, so it's harmless to put it there.
17:12:26 <dael> s/??/astearns
17:12:39 <dael> fantasai: So put in the OM section and make it clear it may be changed
17:12:52 <dael> fantasai: Usually with a WD we think we're going in a direction, but we're not sure at all.
17:13:00 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#highlight-pseudos
17:13:22 <tantek> zakim, unmute me
17:13:22 <Zakim> tantek should no longer be muted
17:13:29 <dael> fantasai: So the ::spelling-error/::grammar-error, did we want it in the draft, or not? There was no resolution at TPAC.
17:13:49 <dael> tantek: I think selection should be in the draft, absolutely. There's been a lot of demand for it.
17:14:00 <Zakim> -Lea
17:14:02 <dael> fantasai: selection will be. Do i include ::spelling-erron
17:14:30 <andrey_r> I was asking for these to be included
17:14:39 <dael> glazou: In the words of the MOzilla editor there have been a lot of requests to style spelling different. grammar I don't remmeber as much, it's a lot harder to do, but I think putting it in the WD will make people think about it.
17:14:43 <dael> astearns: I agree.
17:14:46 <Zakim> +Lea
17:14:56 <dael> tantek: I think I'm in favor, I think it's important in an early version of the draft.
17:14:57 <astearns> s/astearns/tantek/
17:15:05 <fantasai> s/selection will be/::selection will be for sure; it's the main reason we're publishing this draft/
17:15:11 <fantasai> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-pseudo/#highlight-security
17:15:16 <dael> astearns: What's the security concern?
17:15:25 <dael> tantek: It's based on what's in the dictionary.
17:15:28 <krit> s/astearns/tantek/
17:15:48 <dael> fantasai: There's a section on the security issues that I added at TPAC
17:15:59 <dael> fantasai: [reads from spec]
17:16:18 <dael> SimonSapin: I'm happy to have that in
17:16:30 <astearns> s/simonsapin/florian/
17:16:30 <SimonSapin> s/SimonSapin/Florian/
17:16:40 <dael> glazou: So any obj against keeping these two pseudo elements in the spec?
17:17:00 <dael> RESOLVED: keep ::grammar-error and ::spelling-error in the draft
17:17:30 <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
17:17:30 <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
17:18:07 <dael> fantasai: The wording in selectors is problimating b/c it's in a note. It also is...the wording is slightly different and we should figure that out on ww-style. I'm not sure the same wording would make sense.
17:18:29 <dael> tantek: It sounds like there's a general concern about user info leakage and that might merit it's own section.
17:18:32 <dael> fantasai: They're in two different specs.
17:18:40 <dael> tantek: Up to you, than. Your choice.
17:18:53 <dael> fantasai: I'll note they should align.
17:19:03 <dael> fantasai: Right now I'm suing must, for visited it's may.
17:19:12 <dael> dbaron: For visit it was backwards compats.
17:19:17 <dael> tantek: I'm happy with must.
17:19:24 <dael> fantasai: And it's more of a security problem.
17:19:33 <dael> glazou: Not jsut the address book, but words specific to your work.
17:19:43 <dael> fantasai: Or even some confidential information.
17:19:58 <dael> glazou: Anything else on this?
17:20:07 <dael> fantasai: I'd like to pub FPWD.
17:20:09 <dael> glazou: Fine by me.
17:20:13 <dael> tantek: Yes, absolutely.
17:20:24 <dael> RESOLVED: Publish FPWD of CSS-Pseudos
17:20:36 <dael> glazou: Anything else fantasai?
17:20:48 <dael> fantasai: I think that was the only thing. There's another issue on pseudo elements.
17:20:55 <dael> fantasai: Let me pull the e-mail.
17:20:57 <fantasai> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0053.html
17:21:36 <fantasai> data:text/html;charset=utf-8,<!DOCTYPE html>%0D%0A<style>%0D%0Ap%3A%3Aselection { background%3A rgba(0%2C255%2C0%2C0.5)%3B
17:21:39 <fantasai> }%0D%0A<%2Fstyle>%0D%0A<p>Test me <em>and me<%2Fem>.<%2Fp>
17:21:45 <dael> fantasai: If you style p::selection and you have a decendant the text inside the decended doesn't get styled in 3 of 4 rendering engines. I wrote the spec assuming it would recieve the styling b/c I think that makes the most sense. THere's a test case link.
17:22:11 <dael> fantasai: This would require the browsers to change impl. I'd say hold off until we figure out exact inheritence, but I want to make sure the WG is okay to fix it.
17:22:20 <dbaron> I agree we should fix the behavior.
17:22:39 <BradK> Me too
17:22:40 <dael> glazou: The only thing I'm concerned with is I'm not sure if it's consistant on web author expectations. I agree the em in your e-mail should recieve the style of the p in your e-mail case.
17:22:57 <BradK> But I'm not an implementor
17:22:59 <dael> glazou: dbaron agrees we should fix. OTher browser vendors? Google, Apple Microsoft?
17:23:09 <dael> ???: For Apple I'd have to update.
17:23:16 <dael> glazou: Google? Microsoft?
17:23:16 <fantasai> s/???/smfr/
17:23:22 <fantasai> s/update/ask David Hyatt/
17:23:46 <dael> glazou: Is it okay for everyone if fantasai puts her proposal in the spec and we come back to it later?
17:23:46 <tantek> agreed
17:23:47 <zcorpan> there was a reply from rune about what Presto does http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0061.html
17:23:54 <dael> glazou: I think her prop is the one that makese sense.
17:24:02 <dael> glazou: Any obj to that?
17:24:21 <sgalineau> leaverou: they might just not use the feature as a result.
17:24:21 <tantek> would p ::selection help?
17:24:25 <tantek> is this an examples thing?
17:24:26 <dael> glazou: Let's do that. Lets change the behavior and make it more author complient.
17:24:42 <dael> fantasai: I think that's all I have on psuedo. I'll prep the FPWD if Bert will help?
17:24:59 <dael> Bert: I won't be able to pub next week. Maybe ChrisL is available.
17:25:01 <leaverou> sgalineau: nope, they will, but with complicated selectors to involve every descendant (like p::selection, p ::selection)
17:25:04 <dael> fantasai: I'll ask around.
17:25:12 <dael> glazou: plh can help. Thanks plh.
17:25:21 <sgalineau> leaverou: yes, some will go to great lengths. others will just decide it's not worth the pain.
17:25:22 <dael> glazou: I head Florian has CSS3 UI. Anything else?
17:25:42 <dael> bcampbell: I've been doing research on Flexbox still for break.
17:25:42 <zcorpan> tantek: you would need to do p::selection, p ::selection {} but it could get messy. suggestion is to make p::selection {} DWIM
17:25:43 <bcampbell> https://www.evernote.com/l/AJMBQc-dda1NGZW3BF8_WMXkK6k6h2k3C_0
17:25:55 <leaverou> sgalineau: it’s not that huge of a pain. It's mainly the confusion for authors that don't know it that should be a concern.
17:26:03 <bcampbell> https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-flexbox/accessibility
17:26:18 <sgalineau> leaverou: I'd get frustrated if rearranging my markup a little broke my selection styling. but then I'm lazy.
17:26:24 <dbaron> fantasai, has the spec for ::selection defined the underlying model, or is it more vague still?
17:26:31 <dael> bcampbell: Not that link, sorry.
17:26:44 <dael> bcampbell: I created a wiki for the arguements. fantasai was nice enough to talk to me a lot. I've been talking to IBM. I'd like to start a discussion on the e-mail and come back to it.
17:26:45 <fantasai> dbaron, it's pretty explicit, but I'm unsure if it's well-written or correct
17:27:07 <leaverou> sgalineau: yup, I didn’t disagree on that. Unless someone is aware of the peculiarity, it’s frustrating and confusing
17:27:22 <dael> bcampbell: What I wanted to bring up was I was hoping people would keep it on their radar so we can get the comments gathered for next week
17:27:26 <Zakim> -hober
17:27:28 <estellevw> estellevw has joined #css
17:27:36 <dael> glazou: Let's do an action item.
17:27:49 <dael> ACTION everyone to review https://wiki.csswg.org/spec/css3-flexbox/accessibility
17:27:50 <trackbot> Error finding 'everyone'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/Tracker/users>.
17:27:59 <Zakim> +hober
17:28:02 <dael> glazou: What else, or shall we move to Florian?
17:28:15 <dael> ???: Anyone else having problems witht he new repository?
17:28:20 <dbaron> s/???/tantek/
17:28:21 <dael> dbaron: Fine for me too.
17:28:39 <dael> tantek: Okay. I'll follow up.
17:28:47 <dael> Topic: CSS3 UI
17:28:57 <Florian> cursor:auto (ISSUE 48)
17:28:57 <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Nov/0531.html
17:29:00 <dael> Florian: I'll work off of who is here. Is TabAtkins here?
17:29:05 <dael> [silence]
17:29:47 <dael> Florian: This is from dbaron. It's specifying rather than the usinversal do magic with auto.
17:30:16 <dael> dbaron: The reason auto is needed is that generally browsers want a pointer over not-text and an I-beam over text. Since those are oftern together we need a value that switches and auto has historically done that interop.
17:30:49 <fantasai> s/together/in the same element/
17:31:03 <dael> dbaron: The original auto was so ill-defined it seems that everything browsers did with a cursor was under auto. Rather I think what can be in the UI stylesheet should be there rather than all magic in the auto value. I'd rahter auto is just pointer or I-beam.
17:31:11 <dael> glazou: There's a third for auto which is links.
17:31:17 <dael> dbaron: That can be in UA stylesheet
17:31:20 <dael> glazou: Okay, fine.
17:31:51 <dael> Florian: It makes sense to me and I'm in favor of this. We have to resolve what it means to switch between virtical and horizontal. I have some suggestions on this.
17:31:59 <dbaron> Gecko only has 'auto' switch between pointer and the text cursors and does other things in the UA style sheet.
17:32:17 <dael> fantasai: For switching between vert and horz, that should be automatic unless we want to add a hoz text cursor and vert ext keyword.
17:32:28 <Zakim> -zcorpan
17:32:42 <BradK> User-select:none on text should also prevent the automatic text cursor
17:32:50 <Zakim> +??P7
17:32:58 <dael> Florian: We have both, but aotu is switching between those things. dbaron is proposing that we one use auto to switch between only those two things. SO the question is if we should, I have a suggestion for how.
17:33:02 <zcorpan> Zakim, ?PP7 is me
17:33:02 <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named '?PP7'
17:33:04 <dael> fantasai: That makes sense to me.
17:33:04 <glazou> Zakim, mute ??P7
17:33:04 <Zakim> ??P7 should now be muted
17:33:09 <zcorpan> Zakim, ??PP7 is me
17:33:09 <Zakim> sorry, zcorpan, I do not recognize a party named '??PP7'
17:33:18 <zcorpan> Zakim, ??P7 is me
17:33:18 <Zakim> +zcorpan; got it
17:33:19 <glazou> Zakim, ??P7 is zcorpan
17:33:20 <Zakim> I already had ??P7 as zcorpan, glazou
17:33:43 <dael> fantasai: What happens if you haev a resizable element and you're on the border. If we only switch between these cursors, does that mean we don't get a resize cursor?
17:33:43 <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
17:33:43 <Zakim> zcorpan was already muted, zcorpan
17:34:14 <Zakim> -tantek
17:34:29 <dael> dbaron: I have to look, but it's poss we should include it. The case where we've gotten bug reports is authors look at the spec and auto on a form control should mean the form control cursor and on a link the link cursor. I think we should say what switching is a part of auto.
17:34:45 <dael> dbaron: I'm prob not going to get an answer for resize in less then two or three minutes.
17:34:49 <SimonSapin> +1 for specs being explicit
17:35:02 <zcorpan> Zakim, who is noisy?
17:35:15 <Zakim> zcorpan, listening for 12 seconds I heard sound from the following: dael (3%), Florian (63%), adobe-seattle (20%), glazou_ (35%), dbaron (7%)
17:35:28 <tantek> I agree with specs explicit however I'm not sure we have good explicit language to put in yet.
17:35:32 <dael> Florian: Maybe the resizing behaviour is somewhat independant if you spec a cursor other than auto you may still and resize. I'm not sure on this one.
17:35:33 <dbaron> fantasai, I think we have the last two but not auto-text-cursor
17:35:46 <fantasai> "User agents may automatically display a horizontal I-beam/cursor (e.g. same as the vertical-text keyword) for vertical text, or for that matter, any angle of I-beam/cursor for text that is rendered at any particular angle. "
17:36:19 <dael> fantasai: My concern is we have the resize. There's other things that could happen like a UA has a button that changes what you can do to an item and therefore the cursor, like if you hold control it's a hand.
17:36:28 <dael> Florian: That should be doable with normal mech overriding.
17:36:35 <tantek> agreed with fantasai concerns
17:36:37 <dael> fantasai: So the CSS cursor changes if you hold the control key?
17:36:49 <dael> Florian: A UA that could change through te stylesheet. Why not?
17:37:04 <tantek> depends what you're hovering over
17:37:07 <tantek> or if you're dragging
17:37:20 <dael> dbaron: I think the question is if the UA has that, do they want it to not show if the author chooses cursor and I think no in which case you're selecting a mech outside CSS.
17:37:35 <tantek> isn't that the magic of auto?
17:37:43 <dael> fantasai: I'm jsut not sure if everything a UA wants to do can't be done through the stylesheet. If it's out of scope it might be completely expressable.
17:37:53 <tantek> yes, that ^^^
17:37:57 <dael> dbaron: If there's other things that need to be here we should list. I don't think suto should be magic.
17:38:04 <Zakim> +??P13
17:38:06 <tantek> zakim, ??p13 is me
17:38:06 <Zakim> +tantek; got it
17:38:15 <dael> smfr: Looking here we may use the hand or the text input is a pointer
17:38:29 <dael> Florian: If the curor isn't there do you still show the resize?
17:38:33 <dael> smfr: It looks like me don't.
17:38:49 <dael> dbaron: I suspect Gecko has some sort of anon content that has a cursor style on it for the resize handle.
17:38:54 <glazou> TabAtkins: enjoy :-)
17:39:12 <dael> tantek: I'm okay with spec more details on auto, but I don't feel like we understand. There's some cases that aren't covered.
17:39:22 <BradK> *:dragging { cursor: hand; }
17:39:33 <dael> dbaron: That's fine. We should define what it covers, not imply it covers everything that's in the UA stylesheet. We don't need to define on the call.
17:39:56 <dael> Florian: There's another item where if auto can switch between vert and horx, there's also the diaganal. Does it do that?
17:40:23 <dael> fantasai: Text says UA can display horz for any text that's rendered at any angle. So text says you can so I don't know why you wouldn't.
17:40:30 <dael> Florian: Right, it's just that no one does that right now.
17:40:39 <dael> dbaron: I think that's a recent edit to the spec.
17:40:44 <dael> tantek: I think that's been there for a while.
17:40:49 <dael> tantek: It's been there for a while.
17:40:58 <dael> dbaron: Recent in relation to the change in cursor impl.
17:41:53 <dael> tantek: I think the point in IRC earlier is that we don't have an explicit horz.
17:41:59 <dael> tantek: I think it was added because people were doing it. If you want to discuss deprication, that's another discussion.
17:42:20 <dael> Florian: dbaron suggested on the list about having a switch. I don't remember exactly what he said, bt if we should have a switch it should be poss rounded to 90 degrees. That's the baseline, what we're after.
17:42:41 <dael> Florian: Do we have anything we can resolve on?
17:42:54 <dael> Florian: Is there a resolution we want to get out of this?
17:42:55 <dael> fantasai: I'm not convinced we need vert either, but it's tere.
17:43:10 <dbaron> ok, it changed between the 2003 LCWD and the 2004 CR.  There were definitely drafts that described vertical-text and text as both fixed, though (i.e., prior to the 2004 CR)
17:43:36 <dael> Florian: We could have auto means auto-magic everything or we have auto may be a lot of things, but we define what they are and how they work and how to switch and everything else in the UA stylesheet.
17:44:00 <dael> tantek: The point of auto is I want to set this back to what it was becore I said anything. So it needs to be what the author expects.
17:44:10 <zcorpan> Zakim, unmute me
17:44:10 <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
17:44:26 <dael> dbaron: We don't have that for other prop, though we've been talking about having it. I don't htink we want to solve it with.
17:44:42 <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
17:44:42 <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
17:44:43 <dael> zcorpan: I agree with dbaron that what can be expressed in the UA stylesheet shouldn't be a part of the auto keyword
17:44:53 <Zakim> -Lea
17:45:04 <dael> tantek: I'm trying to understand the reasoning. I'm from the author prosp where I want it like it was before I touched it.
17:45:07 <fantasai> fantasai^: We had the 'default' keyword in Cascade to do exactly that for all properties, but impl's asked us to remove it.
17:45:20 <dael> Florian: This is a general wish for CSS, not a specific one.
17:45:23 <Zakim> +Lea
17:45:32 <dael> tantek: When that's changed we can address this, but we have introp.
17:45:38 <dael> dbaron: interop is a disaster on this.
17:45:56 <dael> tantek: Is there a magic other value that UAs use if nothing is spec for the cursor?
17:46:07 <zcorpan> FYI https://html.spec.whatwg.org/multipage/rendering.html#rendering already says the UA stylesheet should contain :link, :visited { text-decoration: underline; cursor: pointer; }
17:46:12 <dael> fantasai: You put something in the UA stylesheet and if nothing overrides it, that's what takes effect.
17:47:07 <dael> Florian: Though we've unconvered that the rules are more complicated, I'm hearing a sort of agreement toward dbaron side, if others agree with tantek they should talk.
17:47:20 <dael> tantek: I'm saying we should speify, but we don't know what they're doing.
17:47:34 <dael> dbaron: I'm saying I know what we do and zcorpan knows what Gecko does and it's not the same thing.
17:47:41 <dael> tantek: So you don't want interop?
17:47:49 <dael> dbaron: We want to decide what interop should be on.
17:48:08 <zcorpan> s/zcorpan knows what Gecko/Simon knows what WebKit/
17:48:29 <dael> smfr: To give an ex in the webkit code there's interesting things happening if your curson is over a link YOu can click the link or click and start editing the link. There's a setting that applies to that under the author value right now.
17:48:53 <dael> smfr: And in addition to that it's something that's hard to describe in the UA stylesheet.
17:49:00 <dael> glazou: We're not going to solve this now.
17:49:19 <zcorpan> zakim, unmute me
17:49:19 <Zakim> zcorpan should no longer be muted
17:49:23 <dael> Florian: Do we want to figure out the rules, or do we want to leave this as magic? WE can decide that and if we want the rules, we can do that on the list.
17:49:28 <BradK> a:editing { cursor: text; }
17:49:30 <dael> glazou: What do impl think?
17:49:47 <zcorpan> Zakim, mute me
17:49:47 <Zakim> zcorpan should now be muted
17:49:50 <dael> zcorpan: I think it's good to try and get closer to interop and align.
17:49:56 <dael> tantek: I'm for interop assuming we can do that
17:50:08 <gregwhitworth> Can we discuss this at F2F?
17:50:29 <dael> tantek: If we spec in this case do this thing, in this case do this, else magic. If we can shrink the magic slowly, that would be great. I'd like to see those prop.
17:50:50 <gregwhitworth> Regarding cursor: Auto
17:50:53 <dael> Florian: Do we intend auto should be everything, or that the UA stylesheet should be specific where it can and else auto and we try and define auto.
17:51:03 <dael> tantek: I don't think I understand that.
17:51:20 <zcorpan> the latter
17:51:34 <dael> Florian: Do we want the UA stylesheet to have a selector that says cursor: auto, or do we want detailed things in the stylesheet except where we have to decide on auto.
17:52:01 <dael> smfr: I'm fine with the later. webkit only has links for the editing behavior I defined.
17:52:04 <dbaron> I prefer the latter as well.
17:52:12 <tantek> I'll defer to the latter
17:52:14 <dael> glazou: So the two Simons are in favor of the latter.
17:52:17 <dael> glazou: obj?
17:52:33 <BradK> If we do the latter, then what happens if the author does the former?
17:53:30 <dbaron> proposed resolution: we intend 'auto' to cover behaviors that can't be described by other styles in the UA style sheet, and we want to define it more precisely, but we need to work out on the list what that definition should be
17:53:41 <dael> dbaron: Does that make sense?
17:53:57 <zcorpan> BradK - it would make links have a text cursor
17:54:01 <dael> Various: yes
17:54:04 <Florian> ::value and ::choices (Follow up on ISSUE 65)
17:54:04 <Florian> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2015Jan/0046.html
17:54:05 <dael> RESOLVED: we intend 'auto' to cover behaviors that can't be described by other styles in the UA style sheet, and we want to define it more precisely, but we need to work out on the list what that definition should be
17:54:20 <glazou> tantek: plinss at TAG ftf
17:54:34 <gregwhitworth> gregwhitworth has joined #css
17:54:48 <tantek> thanks glazou - I'll await his email then :/
17:55:03 <dael> Florian: A while back we decided to dropt he pseudo elements that were in CSS3 UI. tantek made the edit, but we found two values. There was some evidence of intent to impl. I agree that value makes sense, I'm not a sure about choices, but given there's no impl I think they should go in pseudo spec.
17:55:06 <lajava> lajava has joined #css
17:55:16 <dael> Florian: So what do people think, keep, delete, move?
17:55:19 <Zakim> -Lea
17:55:57 <dael> tantek: I'm particularly interested in impl feedback. If it's not a priority for other impl, that's a big piece of input, but if they will impl this year, we need that. Shuffling spec we can decide later from that information.
17:55:59 <Zakim> +Lea
17:56:32 <dael> tantek: Tis is part of the larger do we want to keep making controls JSy or do we want to add smaller stuff to CSS that authors use for control.
17:56:48 <Zakim> -Lea
17:56:50 <dael> Florian: To me ::values makes sense and ::choices doesn't, but I'm not impl.
17:56:55 <dael> tantek: As an author?
17:56:57 <dael> Florian: Yes.
17:57:09 <dael> smfr: I don't think webkit has intention to add these soon.
17:57:11 <Zakim> -[IPcaller]
17:57:46 <dael> Florian: When we discussed place-holder pseudo classes, we only added one for when it was shown, I think this was a combo between value psuedo class and pseudo element did everything you need.
17:57:52 <dael> tantek: I think that was a use case for ::value.
17:58:03 <dael> Florian: If we remove ::value, we need ::place-holder.
17:58:21 <dael> dbaron: We agreeed to add ::place-holder. It hasn't been edited into psuedo-spec.
17:58:24 <Zakim> +Lea
17:58:44 <dael> tantek: I'd like to see a trail for that and see what's going on there. Do you remember what meeting dbaron?
17:58:46 <dael> dbaron: No.
17:58:48 <glazou> zcorpan: yes
17:58:59 <dael> s/place=holder/placeholder
17:59:14 <astearns> Tucson
17:59:20 <dael> tantek: If we think it's sufficent and it's written, I think it's a good interum solution.
17:59:28 <zcorpan> s/place-holder/placeholder/g
17:59:38 <dbaron> placeholder resolutions in http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/css/20130206#l-654
17:59:40 <dael> Florian: If we have value, we don't need placeholder, but if we have placeholder, we might still want value.
17:59:58 <dael> Florian: But back to the earlier question, do people want to impl. You've got the comments from Mozilla.
18:00:07 <antenna_> antenna_ has joined #css
18:00:08 <dael> tantek: I think it was a refocus on ::placeholder
18:00:17 <Zakim> -krit
18:00:17 <astearns> email link: http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2013Feb/0393.html
18:00:20 <dael> dbaron: I just put a link to the IRC of the resolution. It was Feb 2013
18:00:39 <zcorpan> maybe ::value shouldn't select the placeholder
18:00:40 <dael> tantek: I was there and I don't remember this, but okay.
18:01:03 <dael> Florian: What are we lacking to make a decision.
18:01:14 <dael> tantek: We're lacking a write up of those two pseudos.
18:01:15 <tantek> we need these written up: :placeholder-shown & ::placeholder
18:01:28 <dael> Florian: It's just ::placeholder that isn't.
18:01:35 <dael> tantek: Should we action someone to write that up?
18:01:39 <dael> glazou: We need to wrap up.
18:01:54 <dael> tantek: So I propose we action a pseudo-elements writer to write up ::placeholder
18:02:09 <dael> tantek: I think we should get that out there and follow up
18:02:31 <dael> ACTION fantasai write ::placeholder in pseudo spec
18:02:31 <trackbot> Created ACTION-664 - Write ::placeholder in pseudo spec [on Elika Etemad - due 2015-01-14].
18:03:04 <BradK> Is XForms still a thing? Is that the only use case for '::repeat-item'?
18:03:12 <Zakim> -zcorpan
18:03:14 <dael> fantasai: It doesn't sound like there's an immediate need to have ::value and ::choices so we should drop them to pseudo
18:03:25 <BradK> OK
18:03:26 <dael> tantek: I think we have concensus on what, but not another.
18:03:35 <Zakim> -smfr
18:03:38 <dael> glazou: We're past the hour. Thank you and we'll see you next week.
18:03:38 <Zakim> -tantek
18:03:40 <Zakim> - +1.519.513.aadd
18:03:42 <Zakim> -glazou_
18:03:43 <Zakim> -adobe-seattle
18:03:44 <Zakim> -bcampbell
18:03:44 <Zakim> -dbaron
18:03:44 <Zakim> -hober
18:03:46 <Zakim> -antonp
18:03:46 <Zakim> -[Bloomberg]
18:03:47 <Zakim> -Florian
18:03:48 <dael> s/what/one
18:03:49 <Zakim> -Lea
18:03:50 <Zakim> -Plh
18:03:50 <Zakim> -BradK
18:03:51 <Zakim> -dauwhe
18:03:53 <Zakim> -SimonSapin
18:03:53 <Zakim> -vivien
18:03:55 <Zakim> -dael
18:03:58 <Zakim> -SteveZ
18:03:59 <Zakim> - +1.631.398.aaee
18:03:59 <Zakim> Style_CSS FP()12:00PM has ended
18:03:59 <Zakim> Attendees were dael, +1.479.764.aaaa, Florian, dauwhe, Lea, +1.206.675.aabb, astearns, fantasai, bcampbell, sylvaing, cabanier, +33.1.39.21.aacc, glazou_, krit, antonp, Plh, BradK,
18:03:59 <Zakim> ... dbaron, vivien, SteveZ, +1.519.513.aadd, zcorpan, smfr, [IPcaller], SimonSapin, [Bloomberg], +1.631.398.aaee, tantek, hober
18:04:19 <vollick> Zakim, +1.519.513.aadd is me.
18:04:19 <Zakim> sorry, vollick, I do not recognize a party named '+1.519.513.aadd'
18:04:48 <Florian> I don't see the point of having ::placeholder if we have ::value, as you can write :placeholder-shown::value
18:05:12 <leaverou> Florian++
18:05:52 <Florian> leaverou: we still do. what you suggested does not help you know if the placeholder isn't shown because there isn't one, or if it isn't shown because the user typed something
18:06:57 <Florian> or can the (user-typed) value and the placeholder be shown at the same time? that
18:07:08 <Florian> would exlain why you'd need both pseudos
18:07:59 <Florian> leaverou: I think the placehoder disapears if you click in the input field, even if you haven't typed anything yet, at least in some implementations
18:08:13 <leaverou> Florian: not any more, at least in most implementations
18:08:49 <Florian> this seems to be something reasonable people could disagree about, so I am not sure I'd want to make it impossible
18:08:49 <BradK> But that should be implementation specific, no?
18:08:53 <Florian> right
18:09:47 <Florian> Is there a similar case for browsers wanting to show the placeholder and the value at the same time, or is that silly, and :placeholder-shown::value is a reasonable replacement for ::placeholder ?
18:09:52 <dbaron> leaverou, the point is that you might be in a situation where the value is empty but the placeholder is not shown
18:10:06 <BradK> In theory, the placeholder could be shown as a tooltip whenever the field is focuses, even after the user starts typing.
18:10:59 <leaverou> BradK: hmm that’s a good argument. It would be even nicer if authors could make this possible via CSS. I.e. if the entire placeholder hiding happened via rules in the UA stylesheet that could be overriden
18:11:41 <Florian> leaverou: if you do that, that means that absent these rules, UAs would by default show the placeholder and the value, overlaping. Not sure I like that
18:12:24 <leaverou> Florian: I don’t see why UAs would implement this behavior without implementing the UA stylesheet rules for it
18:12:34 <tantek> tooltips don't show up on touch platforms
18:13:10 <BradK> Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }
18:13:21 <leaverou> tantek: the "tooltip" BradK referred to is about styling, not an actual tooltip
18:13:27 <BradK> In UA style sheet
18:13:33 <plinss> tantek: yes, you have access (username: tantek)
18:13:43 <Florian> leaverou: they wouldn't, but while I think relying on UA stylesheets to tailor behaviour to HTML makes sense, I am not sure they should be used to make sure content is at all readable
18:13:49 <BradK> tantek: yes
18:14:20 <Florian> I don't want CSS resets to mess up with that.
18:14:34 <tantek> plinss - thanks - now I have a different problem
18:14:46 <leaverou> Florian: that would mean CSS resets would explicitly style ::placeholder
18:14:56 <BradK> Instead of display:inline, it would be positioned, colored, block, etc.
18:15:10 <BradK> For tooltip effect
18:15:27 <leaverou> that sounds awesome
18:15:28 <BradK> CSS resets are evil.
18:15:36 <Florian> leaverou: Good ones would. I don't mind things being ugly, but I do mind things being unreadable "by default"
18:16:34 <Florian> BradK: yes they are, but they exist none the less, and if we can design to limit the amount of footgun we provide them, so much the better
18:16:34 <leaverou> Florian: nope, that would be terrible ones. CSS resets have a purpose, they shouldn't just be blindly resetting stuff
18:16:35 <tantek> "abort: push creates new remote head 61b8f79f63ae!"
18:16:37 <tantek> :( :( :(
18:17:03 <tantek> how do I force dump all local changesets and go back to what head the server has?
18:17:10 <tantek> I've already saved a copy of the only two files I modified
18:17:14 <tantek> so I can reapply the changes
18:17:22 <plinss> just make a new clone
18:17:29 <tantek> that takes forever
18:17:29 <Florian> rm -rf foobar; git clone .....
18:17:40 <tantek> when the problem should only be with a few files
18:17:54 <plinss> hg clone takes less than a minute for me
18:18:16 <tantek> how do you dump a local changeset?
18:18:16 <tantek> like if you have 5 changesets and you only want to keep the first 4?
18:18:18 <leaverou> Florian: So you want to make a perfectly good use case impossible for fear of the imaginary bad CSS reset?
18:18:28 <plinss> hg export
18:18:58 <BradK> Florian: I think it is worse if the user can't override the behavior because it is magic.
18:18:59 <tantek> sorry, by dump I mean drop
18:19:05 <tantek> not output ;)
18:19:12 <leaverou> BradK++
18:19:15 <leaverou> less magic, more goodies
18:19:38 <Florian> leaverou: no, but I don't see how your good use case becomes impossible if browsers disable the normal placeholder display mechanism when a value is typed. You can still make it show up my other means
18:19:40 <plinss> http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/EditingHistory
18:19:48 <BradK> 
18:20:03 <leaverou> Florian: more complicated means
18:20:26 <plinss> tantek: in your case a hg strip may work for you: http://mercurial.selenic.com/wiki/EditingHistory#Other_options
18:20:38 <tantek> indeed - it's only the last changeset I'm trying to dump
18:20:59 <BradK> Florian: what is the reset rule that you are imagining?
18:22:23 <BradK> What reset would mess up 1Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }?
18:22:32 <Florian> BradK: "::placeholder {display:inline; color: gray;}" or any other thing that so basic that it doesn't cause the place holder to get out of the way once the user starts typing
18:23:15 <Florian> "Input:focus::placeholder { display:inline; }" isn't sufficient though. It keeps the placeholder even if you're typing
18:23:22 <Florian> which is what I don't want
18:23:45 <tantek> and I'm back to abort: authorization failed
18:23:46 <Florian> I want it to disapear, even if I don't mind you bringing it back by other means if you want to
18:25:11 <tantek> "try to push obsolete markers to remote"
18:25:18 <tantek> yeah because that's understandable
18:25:36 <tantek> and then an hg pull -u says "adding remote bookmark master"
18:26:29 <Florian> Basically, the behavior I want as a default is ":not(:placeholder-show)::placeholder {display:none;}". Whether that should be in the UA stylesheet, or magic is less clear to me
18:26:30 <leaverou> Florian: users can always write careless rules to make things unreadable
18:26:36 <tantek> alright, for some reason in all this repo switchover it wanted to merge in a bunch of files I didn't touch
18:26:48 <BradK> Yeah, so I guess maybe you'd need 1Input:focus::placeholder:empty { display:inline; }
18:26:54 <tantek> css-inline/Makefile
18:26:54 <tantek> css-preslev/Overview.html
18:26:56 <tantek> css-preslev/Overview.src.html
18:26:57 <tantek> css-regions/Makefile
18:26:58 <tantek> css-shapes-2/Makefile
18:26:59 <tantek> css-template/Overview.src.html
18:27:15 <Florian> on the one hand it can be expressed in the UA stylesheet, so maybe it should be, but on the other hand, CSS should be robust, and to be that implies that by default (even without a UA stylesheet), things should not overlap and become unreadable
18:27:15 <BradK> Or so,etching
18:27:16 <tantek> so how do I know if I just screwed up those files or not - which I didn't touch but hg in its infinite wisdom decided needed to be in my change set
18:27:18 <BradK> Gah
18:27:26 <leaverou> BradK: :empty is taken :(
18:27:36 <tantek> I'm feeling a w3c meme come along
18:27:48 <tantek> hg push (flames in background)
18:27:50 <BradK> Or something that more accurately describes the current magic
18:28:14 <tantek> well at least http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/ is updated
18:28:45 <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-preslev/ appears to be untouched
18:28:48 <plinss> tantek: when you do a merge, files changed by others (on the other branch you’re merging) show up as diffs in the merge changeset, don’t worry about it
18:28:52 <leaverou> Florian: I believe details/summary behavior is by large set via UA stylesheets, non?
18:29:03 <BradK> 1Input:focus::placeholder:no-value { display:inline; }
18:29:11 <tantek> Florian - all command line revision control tools suck. too much magic, too easy to get into too many totally unuseful states
18:29:12 <leaverou> Florian: how is this different?
18:29:26 <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-regions/ appears to be untouched
18:29:46 <tantek> and http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-template/ appears to be untouched
18:29:58 <plinss> tantek: odd that the master bookmark is still there (the server creates it temproarily to sync with github, to map the default branch to the master branch in git space), but it should delete it right after...
18:30:00 <tantek> so I'm just going to assume I didn't screwup the repository unless someone else finds a problem
18:30:31 <leaverou> BradK: no :focus needed, placeholders are shown even w/out focus, just styled differently (darker color)
18:30:50 <plinss> tantek: I don’t believe you did
18:30:54 <Florian> leaverou: "details/summary"? what are you referring to?
18:30:56 <BradK> 1Ah, right.
18:31:02 <tantek> Florian "hunt for the right argument" <<<< that's the problem. It's supposed to be a *productivity* tool, not a F**** adventure game!
18:31:12 <leaverou> Florian: the <details> element
18:31:25 <tantek> just give me "View" "Edit" Save" any time
18:31:27 <Florian> leaverou: I need to go learn about this one
18:31:43 <BradK> :focus could be used to describe the old Mac way of hiding the placeholder when focused.
18:31:49 <tantek> all the pull push rebase add master whatever is so not needed in the 99% editing case
18:32:09 <tantek> worst kind of UI design - making everone learn *and use* the complex crap that 99% of the time 99% of the users never need
18:32:21 <BradK> Or it could be used to move the placeholder into a tooltip when focused.
18:33:00 <tantek> I'd rather have a rarely quirky UI, than an always quirky UI.
18:33:27 <tantek> also last night and this morning I was seeing this:
18:33:29 <tantek>  Warning: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections in /sites/csswg.org/drafts/htdocs/drafts/core/DBConnection.php on line 132
18:33:41 <tantek> and sometimes just:
18:33:42 <tantek> WARNING: mysqli_connect(): (08004/1040): Too many connections
18:33:53 <tantek> just when trying to *view* http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/
18:34:14 <tantek> git is never simple. always at least 4 commands to do anything.
18:34:16 <leaverou> Florian: hmmm by a quick demo it doesn't look like its behavior is set via UA stylesheet rules, at least in Chrome, so scratch that http://dabblet.com/gist/5a67874e4f9fae2a9437
18:35:14 <tantek> Florian: anyway I appear to have committed a big huge batch of changes that I was working on which handles a bunch of issues with pending edits (all moved already)
18:35:22 <tantek> so now onto the next batch of issues with pending edits
18:35:36 <leaverou> tantek: why 4? git commit -a -m 'Message' && git push. 2 commands
18:35:59 <tantek> leaverou: what about the magic about pushing from your local repo to github?
18:36:19 <tantek> leaverou: also why 2?
18:36:33 <Florian> tantek: because saving and sharing are different things
18:36:33 <tantek> "Save" should be *ONE* command.
18:36:43 <leaverou> tantek: because you might not want your local commits pushed until you're sure about them
18:36:45 <Florian> one command to save, one to share
18:36:47 <leaverou> tantek: i.e. it's much easier to amend a commit when it's only local
18:36:50 <tantek> Florian - I already have a "local" save, that's called my text editor
18:36:56 <tantek> I don't need a separate git save
18:36:58 <tantek> that's just dumb
18:37:03 <tantek> so not needed in the 99% case
18:37:32 <tantek> leaverou: you know what's so much easier? a really simple (Revert) button or link on the UI.
18:37:36 <tantek> ZERO command line garbage
18:37:55 <tantek> or (Rollback) - which e.g. MediaWiki has
18:38:21 <Florian> leaverou: understood what you meant now. But I think that's different. with details/summary, even if the UA stylesheet was used to create that behavior, removing it would mean you lose the open/close behavior, but it would not cause unreadable overlapping content
18:38:21 <leaverou> tantek: revert is a mess when people have pulled from the repo you pushed
18:38:27 <tantek> command line UIs seem to be like developer frog boiling
18:38:27 <leaverou> tantek: that's why git makes it harder to amend a pushed commit
18:38:48 <leaverou> Florian: completely hidden content is worse than overlapping content!
18:39:20 <Florian> leaverou: it wouldn't be hidden, it would be completely shown as if you only had nested divs/spans
18:39:33 <tantek> and this is why I do all the command line stuff in batches
18:39:53 <tantek> because it's always a time overhead, and sometimes a disaster (like hopefully just this one time)
18:40:34 <liam> liam has joined #css
18:40:35 <leaverou> Florian: depends on how that imaginary CSS reset chose to override it
18:40:46 <tantek> alright, I'm going to try one more "easy" issue just to see if my hg troubles are somewhat over for now
18:41:21 <Florian> leaverou: point being, you can design that sanely. If you want placeholder to be shown by default regarless of the presence of a value when there is no stylesheet, that's not the case
18:41:26 <tantek> Florian - do you think we have a chance of resolving all outstanding CSS3-UI issues before Sydney in time to publish another LCCR before Sydney?
18:41:35 <tantek> That's my goal anyway
18:41:56 <Florian> tantek: I think we have a decent chance
18:42:04 <Florian> tantek: and that's my goal too
18:42:08 <tantek> unless we can now publish LCCR heartbeat updates without resolving all open issues
18:42:18 <tantek> ok
18:43:23 <leaverou> Florian: but there's always a UA stylesheet there
18:43:38 <Florian> tantek: which is why pushing things like ::value to other specs (if we keep it) seems relevant now, even though it is boring adminitrativia. If the spec is close to a publication point, I'd like to remove the things that we know would hold it back due to lack of implementation
18:43:42 <leaverou> Florian: if you want to design it in such a way that authors can't mess it up, well, that's impossible for almost anything
18:44:56 <Florian> leaverou: to me, the design of CSS should be such that without a UA stylesheet, the document might be ugly and boring, but it shouldn't be unreadable
18:45:30 <Florian> then you can break it, but it should start unbroken (if bland)
18:45:41 <Florian> dinner time, though.
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18:49:05 <tantek> Florian - we're not close to publication point yet
18:49:23 <tantek> when we get to <10 open issues, we may be "close" :)
18:50:00 <tantek> aside re: Email http://xkcd.com/1467/
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19:05:21 <BradK> Later, gators
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19:07:57 <tantek> plinss: thanks for your help. the hg strip step was key and I think helped.
19:08:16 <plinss> tantek: cool, no problem
19:08:34 <tantek> trying another small edit now just to see if everything is back to a good state
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19:29:14 <tantek> huh - well there is this: https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/rev/e8a6267f7f3f
19:29:31 <tantek> side-effect of all the merging and crap from changing repositories
19:29:36 <tantek> hoping that looks ok
19:29:48 <tantek> figure I'll share it here just so others can take a look
19:31:07 <tantek> ok small edit worked
19:32:41 <plinss> tantek: yeah, that’s just a classical merge changeset
19:33:02 <plinss> if they bother you, you can generally rebase instead of merging
19:33:03 <tantek> no idea how I got those "newer" edits
19:33:11 <tantek> and had to commit them to the new repo
19:33:17 <tantek> but as long as the outcome is ok - I'm fine
19:33:28 <tantek> I think I alternately rebase and merge just to be sure
19:33:46 <plinss> the “newer” edits were committed after yours, but pushed first
19:33:58 <plinss> that’s why you had to merge them
19:34:36 <plinss> (fwiw: rebase avoids the need for merge, it takes your local branch and grafts it to the tip instead of merging)
19:35:30 <tantek> ok
19:36:17 <plinss> it may be easier to visualize what’s going on here: https://hg.csswg.org/drafts/graph/tip
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20:36:15 <tantek> plinss: neat. ok, all caught up with reviewing, minor updates to, and  applying resolved issues with edits to CSS3-UI.  That leaves us with 14 open issues.
20:36:53 <tantek> http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-ui-3/ is in pretty good shape. Going to context switch to another area for a bit.
20:37:23 <Florian> tantek: very nice, thanks a lot. I'll do a quick review to be sure we're all good, and then let's deal with the remaining 14.
20:37:25 <tantek> plinss: hopefully the TAG f2f is going well! aside: feel free to ping me if anything comes up that the AB could help with.
20:38:12 <tantek> Florian - appreciate it - yes - go ahead and review as I did make bunch of modifications to and beyond the patches / changes, but always in intent of resolutions.
20:38:39 <tantek> Also made a few formatting and editorial changes for better readability in general as I found opportunities to do so.
20:38:46 <plinss> tantek: will do, thanks
20:38:52 <Florian> great
20:39:16 <tantek> plinss: also, congrats on the server move and all that github integration. I'm still parsing it all but it sounds like a massive impressive amount of work.
20:39:57 <plinss> heh, thanks. The fun part was getting it all to work with the other systems… all up about 3 weeks of work
20:40:29 <tantek> crazy
20:40:54 <tantek> I may switch to trying to use the github flow at some point, but now that I've got the hg / bikeshed workflow "working" I'll likely stick with that until I have a good reason to switch.
20:44:03 <plinss> if your bikeshed output is relatively warning free, you should hg rm the Overview.html file and let bikeshed run on the server
20:44:42 <plinss> that way the server will automatically regenerate your spec whenever other specs change, so your cross-reference links stay up to date
20:45:56 <Florian> Bikeshed tends to change a lot and I am not sure what the latest updates did, but after the conversion, it was warning free
20:46:25 <tantek> hmm - may have to look into warnings
20:47:55 <plinss> looks like a bunch there now
20:49:53 <plinss> note that having warnings isn’t a showstopper from letting the server do the generation, you’ll just get emails with the wanings when you push
20:50:17 <plinss> (and you’ll get a yellow bikeshed icon on the spec telling the world about the warnings)
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22:19:09 <fantasai> Is anyone else having trouble cross-linking properties?
22:28:04 <tantek> just added a new link to CSS3BG border-style to CSS3-UI
22:28:29 <fantasai> So 'border-style' worked?
22:28:29 <tantek> huh that's odd - it's linking to the CSS2 version :/
22:28:48 <tantek> 'border-style'
22:28:51 <fantasai> Maybe all of the non-CSS2 cross-link sources died
22:28:55 <fantasai> plinss?
22:29:16 <tantek> hmm I seem to have simply confirmed your hypothesis
22:29:33 <tantek> though values seem to work
22:29:38 <fantasai> try linking to 'border-image'? :)
22:29:43 <tantek> e.g. 'hidden' links to http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-backgrounds-3/#hidden
22:29:51 <fantasai> weird
22:30:21 <fantasai> the script is also crashing on something now that we've fixed or worked around the other errors
22:30:29 <tantek> \ ( ? ) /
22:31:19 <astearns> https://www.irccloud.com/pastebin/W6pwzUDI
22:36:35 <tantek> lol why does IRCCloud need scripts from Stripe, Facebook, Twitter, Vine?
22:36:40 <tantek> no, seriously. why?
22:42:50 <plinss> plinss: taking a look...
22:47:36 <plinss> fantasai: the only anchors I see for border-style in the spec db are for backgrounds-3
22:49:06 <plinss> text-shadow shows up in text-3 and text-decor-3
22:49:24 <plinss> maybe something changed in bikeshed?
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22:55:06 <plinss> the bikeshed crash on text-decor-4 is a bug in bikeshed, but amusingly it’s a bug in code that’s trying to report an error and die anyway…
22:55:16 <fantasai> lol
22:55:55 <plinss> try replacing sectionID on line 389 & line 392 with targetID in your local copy
22:58:53 <jcraig> tabatkins or Florian, is there any progress on the high contrast MFs since TPAC? As a reminder: microsoft's original proposal is too specific to their implementation. We've been discussing a variant in IndieUI UC: https://dvcs.w3.org/hg/IndieUI/raw-file/default/src/indie-ui-context.html#user-contrast ... I think TPAC discussion was you wanted to consider the syntax more: user-setting(contrast) or something.
22:59:40 <tantek> high contrast MFs?
22:59:40 <Florian> jcraig: Not forgotten. I asked Tab a while ago if I should take care of it or if he would, and he said he would
23:00:19 <jcraig> tantek, both Mac OS and Windows have high (or higher) contrast modes
23:00:20 <Florian> jcraig: thanks for the link, though
23:00:43 <tantek> jcraig: usually when I see people abbreviate mfs or MFs it's microformats ;)
23:00:45 <Florian> tantek: MF-> media features
23:01:02 <jcraig> tantek: http://osxdaily.com/2014/10/22/increase-contrast-mac-os-x-yosemite/
23:01:09 <plinss> fantansai: just submitted a PR to fix that bug in Bikeshed
23:03:00 <jcraig> tanktek, right sorry: MQ:MF, not μf
23:04:41 <Florian> jcraig: Tab's back from vacations tomorrow. I'll ping him and see if we can move forward with this. Thanks for the wake up call
23:10:02 <fantasai> plinss: I think you should get write access to bikeshed :)
23:10:20 <plinss> heh, not sure I want it :-)
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23:34:30 <dael> fantasai ping?
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