15:57:54 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #hcls
15:57:54 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/30-hcls-irc
15:57:56 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
15:57:56 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #hcls
15:57:58 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be HCLS
15:57:58 <Zakim> ok, trackbot, I see SW_HCLS()11:00AM already started
15:57:59 <trackbot> Meeting: Semantic Web Health Care and Life Sciences Interest Group Teleconference
15:57:59 <trackbot> Date: 30 December 2014
15:58:04 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
15:58:04 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth
15:58:06 <Zakim> On IRC I see RRSAgent, dbooth, TallTed, egonw, cloudcell, trackbot, ericP
15:58:43 <holger> holger has joined #HCLS
15:58:44 <Tony> Tony has joined #HCLS
15:59:28 <Zakim> + +1.978.794.aaaa
15:59:44 <dbooth> zakim, aaaa is Tony
15:59:44 <Zakim> +Tony; got it
16:00:11 <Zakim> + +1.604.250.aabb
16:00:50 <dbooth> zakim, aabb is pknapp
16:00:50 <Zakim> +pknapp; got it
16:00:56 <pknapp> pknapp has joined #HCLS
16:00:58 <Zakim> +??P3
16:01:27 <dbooth> zakim, ??P3 is holger
16:01:27 <Zakim> +holger; got it
16:01:37 <Ingeborg> Ingeborg has joined #HCLS
16:02:00 <Zakim> + +1.202.528.aacc
16:02:40 <dbooth> zakim, aacc is Ingeborg
16:02:40 <Zakim> +Ingeborg; got it
16:02:59 <Zakim> + +1.510.418.aadd
16:03:16 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:03:18 <dbooth> zakim, aadd is PeterHendler
16:03:18 <Zakim> +[IPcaller.a]
16:03:18 <Zakim> +PeterHendler; got it
16:03:36 <dbooth> zakim, IPcaller is Claude
16:03:36 <Zakim> +Claude; got it
16:03:52 <dbooth> zakim, temporarily mute IPcaller.a
16:03:52 <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should now be muted
16:03:53 <mscottm> mscottm has joined #hcls
16:03:59 <Zakim> +??P8
16:04:06 <Lloyd> Lloyd has joined #HCLS
16:04:08 <Zakim> [IPcaller.a] should now be unmuted again
16:04:08 <dbooth> zakim, who is making noise?
16:04:19 <Zakim> dbooth, listening for 10 seconds I heard sound from the following: DBooth (53%), holger (57%), ??P8 (38%)
16:04:20 <Claude> Claude has joined #hcls
16:04:26 <dbooth> zakim, mute holger
16:04:26 <Zakim> holger should now be muted
16:04:29 <holger> zakim, +??P8 is holger
16:04:29 <Zakim> sorry, holger, I do not recognize a party named '+??P8'
16:04:34 <drjava> drjava has joined #hcls
16:05:01 <drjava> Test
16:05:12 <dbooth> zakim, who is here?
16:05:12 <Zakim> On the phone I see DBooth, Tony, pknapp, holger (muted), Ingeborg, PeterHendler, Claude, [IPcaller.a], ??P8
16:05:14 <Zakim> On IRC I see drjava, Claude, Lloyd, mscottm, Ingeborg, pknapp, Tony, holger, Zakim, RRSAgent, dbooth, TallTed, egonw, cloudcell, trackbot, ericP
16:05:53 <Zakim> + +31.62.427.aaee
16:06:11 <mscottm> Zakim, aaee is mscottm
16:06:11 <Zakim> +mscottm; got it
16:06:21 <holger> zakim, ??P8 is holger
16:06:21 <Zakim> +holger; got it
16:06:35 <drjava> Drjava is peter hendler
16:06:47 <dbooth> zakim, IPcaller.a is Lloyd
16:06:47 <Zakim> +Lloyd; got it
16:07:37 <GJiang> GJiang has joined #HCLS
16:07:48 <dbooth> Topic: approve minutes
16:07:48 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=ITS_RDF_Concall_Minutes_20141223
16:08:39 <dbooth> Resolved: Minutes appoved
16:08:54 <Zakim> + +1.507.261.aaff
16:09:01 <dbooth> Topic: Review of Action Items
16:09:14 <dbooth> zakim, aaff is Guoqian
16:09:14 <Zakim> +Guoqian; got it
16:09:16 <Claude> https://global.gotomeeting.com/join/157514853
16:10:33 <Zakim> +ericP
16:10:52 <dbooth> ACTION: Guoqian to figure out whether he can share URI conventions for ICD-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07] -- DONE
16:10:52 <trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Figure out whether he can share uri conventions for icd-11 [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/25-hcls-minutes.html#action07] -- done [on Guoqian Jiang - due 2015-01-06].
16:11:49 <dbooth> [PENDING] ACTION: Kerstin and Ingeborg to prepare a status and future state ideas for PhUSE-FDA work [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action05]
16:12:05 <dbooth> ACTION: Tony to find out more details about how iCat handles ICD-11 ont and report back [recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/11/18-hcls-minutes.html#action01] -- DONE
16:12:05 <trackbot> Error finding 'Tony'. You can review and register nicknames at <http://www.w3.org/2014/HCLS/track/users>.
16:13:35 <dbooth> Tony: Proceeding on high level concepts work.  Paper being formulated.  Starting to compare different approaches: Eric &Josh, Cecil, Tony, Claude's work.
16:14:00 <dbooth> Topic:
16:14:00 <dbooth>     Please respond to Participation survey
16:14:23 <dbooth> Topic:  San Antonio F2F meeting
16:14:40 <dbooth> http://www.hl7.org/events/wgm012015/
16:15:40 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR ontology: Use JSON-LD?
16:16:55 <Tony> Link to High Level Mapping http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_RDF_Mapping
16:18:40 <dbooth> David: Others interested in exploring the JSON-LD route?
16:19:47 <Zakim> -ericP
16:20:32 <Zakim> +ericP
16:20:51 <dbooth> Claude: Represent Josh and Eric's RDF as JSON-LD?
16:22:33 <dbooth> David: JSON-LD could influence the FHIR ontology choices
16:23:15 <Zakim> + +1.801.949.aagg
16:23:27 <dbooth> Tony: How widely supported is JSON-LD yet?
16:25:00 <dbooth> lloyd: fine with JSON-LD approach because it removes discussion about what RDF would look like.  And if we could add a single @context we may get that accepted as part of standard JSON syntax -- always there by default.
16:25:36 <dbooth> ... Then we could add an appropriate RDF processor to auto consume and expose other RDF syntaxes also.
16:26:44 <dbooth> ... Lots of benefits, though not essential.  Could do massive conversion to RDF, but shouldn't do that if we don't need to.
16:27:04 <dbooth> David: I'll work on JSON-LD.  Anyone else want to help?
16:27:17 <dbooth> Scott: Also interested, though more as a consumer than developer of it.
16:27:50 <dbooth> i/lloyd:/Scott: (voiced support for JSON-LD)/
16:28:04 <dbooth> Scott: I have radiotherapy use cases.
16:28:25 <dbooth> zakim, aagg is rhausam
16:28:25 <Zakim> +rhausam; got it
16:28:35 <dbooth> Topic: FHIR Ontology Requirements
16:28:43 <dbooth> http://wiki.hl7.org/index.php?title=FHIR_Ontology_Requirements
16:30:53 <dbooth> "1. (MUST?) We must define mappings from FHIR XML/JSON to FHIR RDF instance data and vice versa, and an OWL/RDFS ontology for the structure and semantics of that RDF instance data. "
16:31:05 <dbooth> lloyd: Suggest merging #1 and #3.
16:35:47 <dbooth> tony: RDF might have extra information that is not essential to the JSON
16:36:31 <dbooth> lloyd: the same information must be round trippable, so the RDF cannot have any extra info.
16:40:04 <ericP> Lloyd, my guess is this will sort itself out. it seems that if there are some constant triples added to the RDF model to facilitate logic for inference cases not met by the XML, it can be removed when being mapped back without any practical impact.
16:41:24 <dbooth> David: Suppose FHIR JSON is sent to me, I turn it into RDF and add some other non-FHIR RDF data to it, and then send it back.  The result has both FHIR data and non-FHIR data.
16:42:04 <dbooth> lloyd: That extra data needs to be turned back into FHIR JSON using the FHIR extension mechanisms.
16:42:42 <dbooth> tony: Example would be a reference to a type, pointing to the metadata.  That could be part of the RDF but not JSON.
16:43:09 <dbooth> lloyd: When it goes back into RDF the type would come back, right?
16:43:34 <dbooth> ... It would have to be a type based on the resource, not a profile, because the profile may not be available.
16:45:05 <dbooth> ... Going between XML and JSON there's no information added.  Simiilarly the RDF <-> XML/JSON must not add or lose information.
16:46:08 <dbooth> ... Resources are the base units of exchange -- Observation, Medications, etc.  But there are also additional Profiles that further stipulate what a blood pressure should look like, or a dental procedure should look like.
16:46:25 <dbooth> ... There will be 10s of thousands of profiles.
16:46:50 <dbooth> ... All implementors should be aware of all of the Resources (but not all of the profiles).
16:47:00 <dbooth> ... Profiles can be created by anyone at any time.
16:47:12 <dbooth> ... So the conversion cannot depend on them.
16:48:57 <dbooth> Paul: Profiles can change cardinality but not datatype.
16:49:43 <dbooth> lloyd: Profiles can be conveyed in an instance.
16:50:19 <dbooth> ... We can do that in RDF also.  We'd want to be cautious about exposing that to reasoning.
16:50:43 <dbooth> Paul: It wouldn't be valuable to expose it to a reasoner.  It may not be there.
16:51:21 <dbooth> lloyd: My concern is that it 's not guarnteed to be correct.  You can make an assertion that an instance is valid against profile X, when in fact it is not.
16:53:15 <dbooth> guoqian: Meaningful to validate instance data against its declared profile.
16:53:52 <dbooth> lloyd: If an instance does not validate against its declared profile then it is invalid, but the recipient might still process it.
16:54:17 <dbooth> ... So if the reasoner validates that, it may be more difficult.
16:55:11 <dbooth> claude: If a resource specifies a profile, but the instance data does not conform to that profile, is that a valid instance?
16:56:13 <dbooth> lloyd: you should conform to it, and it's an error if you don't.  But it's still possible to process the instance.
16:57:20 <dbooth> paul: the sender of the instance may put on a profile, and the receiver may validate against it.  A separate circumstance is that the sender didn't send a profile, and the recipient adds one, then it does not seem meaningful.
16:58:23 <dbooth> ... We should separate those two cases.
17:01:28 <dbooth> lloyd: In a profile you may have something that says there are 3 repetitions of a code, bound to particular code sets.
17:02:06 <dbooth> ... In the instance you would specify the profile, but the types would not be declared inside the instance.  They would be declared in the profiles.
17:03:18 <dbooth> ... Important that we not expose more than what's in the JSON/XML.  You may need to reason against the profile, beyond what's in the instance.
17:04:15 <mscottm> Would creating a use case (straw man) example in RDF/JSON/XML/OWL be something we could do for future discussions of this sort? I think these discussions would be much more grounded in the context of an actual profile and instance that we adapt to the scenario being discussed. Is that feasible?
17:04:36 <dbooth> ... If you have an instance that its declared valid against 3 different profiles, you can strip the profile declarations without loss, as long as you have a list of profiles of interest, you can check the instances against profiles to see which it conforms to.
17:04:46 <dbooth> Paul: But you lose intent.
17:05:04 <dbooth> ... Profile is merely providing constraints.
17:05:28 <dbooth> David: I thought profile was also conveying intent.
17:06:30 <Zakim> -pknapp
17:06:35 <Zakim> -Lloyd
17:06:46 <Zakim> -ericP
17:07:18 <dbooth> David: Please propose specific rewording suggestions for #1 and #3.
17:07:34 <dbooth> Scott: Would help to see examples when discussing this, to help ground the discussion.
17:08:46 <Zakim> -Tony
17:08:48 <Zakim> -Guoqian
17:08:50 <Zakim> -Ingeborg
17:08:50 <dbooth> ADJOURNED
17:08:53 <Zakim> -holger.a
17:08:55 <Zakim> -mscottm
17:08:56 <Zakim> -DBooth
17:08:58 <Zakim> -PeterHendler
17:08:58 <Zakim> -rhausam
17:09:02 <Zakim> -Claude
17:10:23 <dbooth> Chair: David Booth and Paul Knapp
17:10:31 <dbooth> zakim, who was here?
17:10:31 <Zakim> I don't understand your question, dbooth.
17:10:40 <dbooth> rssagent, draft minutes
17:13:26 <Zakim> -holger
17:13:27 <Zakim> SW_HCLS()11:00AM has ended
17:13:27 <Zakim> Attendees were DBooth, +1.978.794.aaaa, Tony, +1.604.250.aabb, pknapp, holger, +1.202.528.aacc, Ingeborg, +1.510.418.aadd, PeterHendler, Claude, +31.62.427.aaee, mscottm, Lloyd,
17:13:27 <Zakim> ... +1.507.261.aaff, Guoqian, ericP, +1.801.949.aagg, rhausam
17:39:20 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:39:20 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/30-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:46:29 <dbooth> Present: Claude_Nanjo David_Booth Eric_P Guoqian_Jiang Holger_Stenzhorn Ingeborg Lloyd_McKenzie mscottm Peter_Hendler Paul_Knapp Rob_Hausam Tony_Mallia
17:47:55 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:47:55 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/30-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:49:40 <dbooth> s/Please respond to Participation survey//
17:49:46 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:49:46 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/30-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
17:53:54 <dbooth> s/Topic: /TOPIC: /g
17:54:02 <dbooth> s/Topic://
17:54:11 <dbooth> rrsagent, draft minutes
17:54:11 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/30-hcls-minutes.html dbooth
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