17:59:22 RRSAgent has joined #ua 17:59:22 logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-irc 17:59:24 RRSAgent, make logs public 17:59:24 Zakim has joined #ua 17:59:26 Zakim, this will be WAI_UAWG 17:59:26 ok, trackbot; I see WAI_UAWG()1:00PM scheduled to start in 1 minute 17:59:27 Meeting: User Agent Accessibility Guidelines Working Group Teleconference 17:59:27 Date: 18 December 2014 17:59:53 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has now started 18:00:00 +Jeanne 18:02:13 Greg has joined #ua 18:02:16 Jan has joined #ua 18:02:26 zakim, code? 18:02:26 the conference code is 82941 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), Jan 18:02:35 +[IPcaller] 18:03:21 zakim, [IPcaller] is really Jan 18:03:21 +Jan; got it 18:03:46 +Greg_Lowney 18:09:36 +Jim_Allan 18:10:10 allanj has joined #ua 18:10:25 rrsagent, set logs public 18:10:36 +Kim_Patch 18:10:40 chair: JimAllan 18:10:56 Kim has joined #ua 18:11:30 agenda ? 18:11:58 scribe: allanj 18:12:10 Topic: testing at CSUN 18:13:12 we have a room (we hope), tables, page on UAWG page, some form to complete for results, etc, one half day, 10 - 15 tests 18:14:50 Topic: Action 1047 split 1.1.5 18:15:17 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0083.html 18:15:46 Split 1.1.5 so that the first two bullets are a and the third bullet is aa. ier and handles must be split as well. 18:16:55 see: Justin has low vision and works in a noisy environment that makes it difficult to listen to instructional videos. When he enlarges the text of the captions to a viewable size, they block most of the video image. When he is using his smart phone, Justin selects an option that causes the video to pause when the caption track comes on so he can read it, then turns the caption track off so... 18:16:56 ...he can see the video using the full screen. 18:17:17 I'm not sure the 2nd Justin example, of pausing the video every time the captions change, is practical or implemented. 18:17:34 kp: agree 18:17:49 Second, when a paragraph only mentions one person I think we can use their name the first time and use a pronoun thereafter, as it's quite unusual to always refer to someone by name. 18:18:55 Third, it would be good in general to distinguish the situations before and after he makes a change; in this draft you have to get far into the third sentence before you're sure that this is showing the solution rather than continuing a description of the problem. 18:19:51 We could start the third sentence with "To fix this, he..." 18:21:13 "Justin has low vision and works in a noisy environment that makes it difficult to listen to instructional videos. When he enlarges the text of the captions to a viewable size, they block most of the video image. *To fix this,* he selects an option that displays the caption track in a separate window, which he positions below the video image so the captions don't block the video image." 18:24:41 For B I'd just change the Intent paragraph a bit to make it clearer that this is about fonts and colors; the generic "configure" can also include position and the like, which are explicitly in A rather than here in B. 18:24:42 Users who require or can benefit from alternative media tracks in video 18:24:43 or audio might find that recognized text displayed within alternate 18:24:45 media tracks is unusable due to its configuration. Enabling the user to 18:24:46 configure alternate media tracks (e.g. changing caption font and color) allows content to be 18:24:48 displayed in a way that meets the needs of the user. 18:25:03 action: jeanne to split 1.1.5 from email with edits from above. 18:25:03 Created ACTION-1064 - Split 1.1.5 from email with edits from above. [on Jeanne F Spellman - due 2014-12-25]. 18:25:42 kim's edits are for Intent 1.1.5b 18:25:56 remove second Justin example in 1.1.5b 18:26:19 use Gregs edits above for first Justin example in 1.1.5b 18:26:59 Close Action-1047 18:26:59 Closed Action-1047. 18:28:43 RESOLUTION: MS06 1.1.5 accepted. New SC written 18:29:46 Topic: Action 1044 for 1.1.6 18:30:33 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0089.html 18:33:39 close action-1044 18:33:39 Closed action-1044. 18:34:43 topic: Action 1046 1.1.3 18:34:45 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0082.html 18:38:37 +Eric 18:40:51 Ahh, my original suggestion was to add an example that someone may want to turn off images because some are painfully high contrast, not about configuring the replacement text. 18:42:11 Topic: UAAG 2.0 Conformance Applicability Notes 18:43:04 start of thread http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0084.html 18:44:27 discussion of placement of conformance section. 18:45:10 jr: Conformance is normative. need to keep a reminder at the top, section is important. If there is something that should not be normative...flag them. 18:45:49 discussing http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#applicability-notes 18:46:46 http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/#conformance-reqs 18:47:28 gl: don't see them a Conformance, these are things that should be in individual SC, but would be in so many SCs as to make reading difficult. Would lean towards removing Conformance from the title 18:47:30 Eric has joined #ua 18:48:22 jr: depends how you read the document. top to bottom or conformance first. As long as there are notes to cross reference them, all should be good. 18:48:29 I don't think of these as really being related to Conformance. They are bits of SC that should really be part of lots of SC, but were factored out to make the SC less repetitive and thus easier to read and understand. The Conformance section is generally more process-oriented and less technical than these notes and the SC. 18:49:49 Similarly I don't think of them as being part of the Introduction (which is non-normative), but being part of the normative section containing principles, guidelines, and success criteria. 18:50:24 eh: want to have a coherent introduction. these seem a mixed bag. perhaps more explanation about what they are. 18:51:18 gl: good idea to have a para before the list, these apply to many of the SC, and should be read before this list and assumed to be included in many SCs 18:51:57 ja: +1 18:52:06 jr: +1 18:52:45 eh: is the UA definition changed. 18:53:15 jr: see my Action 1060 email http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0091.html 18:53:21 Action: Jan to write an intro paragraph for UAAG 2.0 Conformance Applicability Notes 18:53:22 Created ACTION-1065 - Write an intro paragraph for uaag 2.0 conformance applicability notes [on Jan Richards - due 2014-12-25]. 18:53:53 Topic: UA defintion Action 1060 18:54:01 http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ua/2014OctDec/0091.html 18:55:50 http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#sc_511 18:56:09 eh: back to conformance. not clear on the value of the other Applicability notes. Why are they there. 18:56:33 ... web-based UA 18:56:48 Native user agent - http://w3c.github.io/UAAG/UAAG20/#gl-AT-access 18:57:08 jr: native user agent ... Chrome is a native UA , but all of its settings are web based 18:59:03 "Plug-in" used 17 times 18:59:22 eh: what about applicability notes. which SC apply. 19:01:03 eh: want a good understandable document 19:01:20 eh: maybe add "such as mobile and desktop browsers, plug-in" 19:02:18 eh: if we knew that a UA had to do all of these things. then things that do not do all of these things then it is not a user agent. 19:03:02 ... give a rationale for what is a UA and what is not 19:06:12 eh: want to preserve browser, media player, robust unlimited data sources. 19:07:58 *user agent*: 19:08:00 Any software that retrieves, renders and facilitates end user interaction with web content. This includes: 19:08:01 - *native user agents* that run on operating systems and that perform content retrieval, rendering and end-user interaction facilitation themselves. A native user agent that is a browser may be referred to as a *base browser*. 19:08:03 - *embedded user agents* (or *plug-ins*) that are installed into other user agents (e.g. media player plug-in for a native browser). Embedded user agents may establish direct connections with the platform (e.g. communication via platform accessibility services). 19:08:04 - *web-based user agents* that have user interfaces implemented using web content technologies and that are accessed by users via a native user agent (e.g. web-based e-book reader, web-based video player). Note: Only a limited sub-set of UAAG 2.0 success criteria will typically apply to web-based user agents. See @@Link to note@@. 19:08:06 Notes: 19:08:07 - Many web applications retrieve, render and facilitate interaction with very limited data sets (e.g. online ticket booking). In these cases, WCAG 2.0, rather than UAAG 2.0, is the most appropriate standard for assessing the accessibility of the application. 19:08:09 - The UAAG 2.0 Reference includes some examples of tools that are and are not considered user agents. 19:09:16 should be a link to the examples in the Reference Document 19:09:55 Reference Document 19:10:11 - The UAAG 2.0 Reference includes some examples @@link to reference@@ of software that are and are not considered user agents. 19:11:14 Examples of software that are generally considered user agents under UAAG 2.0: 19:11:16 - Desktop web browsers (e.g. Internet Explorer, Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Opera) 19:11:17 - Mobile web browsers (e.g. Firefox, Chrome, Safari, Android Browser, Opera Mini, Atomic Web, Puffin) 19:11:19 - Browser plug-ins (e.g. QuickTime Plug-in for Firefox, Acrobat Reader Plug-in for Internet Explorer, Shockwave Plug-in for Chrome) 19:11:21 - Authoring tools that render the web content being edited (e.g. Word, Dreamweaver, HTML-Kit) 19:11:22 Note: Web view components (e.g. Webkit Webview component, Web Tools Platform Plug-in for Eclipse, UIWebView for iOS) can be used to develop new user agents. For UAAG 2.0 conformance, it is preferable to assess the complete user agent. 19:11:24 Examples of software that are not considered user agents under UAAG 2.0 (in all cases, WCAG 2.0 still applies if the software is web-based): 19:11:25 - Operating environments or software bundles that include platform-based user agents (e.g. Windows, OS X, KDE, iOS), though the included user agents themselves are covered by UAAG 2.0. 19:11:27 - General-purpose platforms or toolkits that don't use web technologies, even though they may be used by user agents for other purposes (e.g. GNOME, KDE, .NET Framework/CLR). 19:11:28 - Narrow-purpose platform-based or web applications (e.g. online ticket booking applications). 19:11:30 - Authoring tools that only display a source view of the web content being edited (e.g. Notepad, Vim). 19:12:22 gl: could include Trident as an example of a web view component 19:14:17 eh: would it make sense to put this in guidelines in a non-normative section so they don't have to switch documents to see examples of what is and is not considered a UA 19:16:16 jr: there are lots of real world names of products, they may go away, or become dated, don't want them in the normative guideline document 19:16:49 gl: what about QQ which is a wrapper for Trident web view component 19:17:00 jr: see the note. 19:17:44 gl: doesn't say ... for the purposes of UA X is not a user agent. 19:18:18 Examples of software that are not considered user agents under UAAG 2.0 (in all cases, WCAG 2.0 still applies if the software is web-based): 19:18:19 - Operating environments or software bundles that include platform-based user agents (e.g. Windows, OS X, KDE, iOS), though the included user agents themselves are covered by UAAG 2.0. 19:18:21 - General-purpose platforms or toolkits that don't use web technologies, even though they may be used by user agents for other purposes (e.g. GNOME, KDE, .NET Framework/CLR). 19:18:22 - Narrow-purpose platform-based or web applications (e.g. online ticket booking applications). 19:18:24 - Authoring tools that only display a source view of the web content being edited (e.g. Notepad, Vim). 19:18:33 That is, I felt it was a little weird that it's implied that web view components are user agents (although it's preferable not to test them independently), but they don't fit into any of the three categories of user agents. 19:18:47 - Web view components (e.g. Webkit Webview component, Web Tools Platform Plug-in for Eclipse, UIWebView for iOS) that can be used to develop new user agents. For UAAG 2.0 conformance, it is preferable to assess the complete user agent. 19:19:58 Editorial: "that are used to develop user agents"? (They're used by existing UA as well as new ones, and are used ONLY for building UA.) 19:20:47 eh: web view component is not a UA because ??? 19:21:45 jr: doesn't facilitate enduser interaction. but webview component is not a running piece of software, it needs everything else around it. 19:27:34 eh: concerned with "base browser" doesn't add anything to the definition. 19:27:52 df has joined #ua 19:28:01 Close Action-1060 19:28:01 Closed Action-1060. 19:28:10 rrsagent, make minutes 19:28:10 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-minutes.html allanj 19:29:07 Next Meeting after this one...Jan 8, 2015 19:30:03 close action-1041 rewrite 1.3.2 19:30:04 close action-1042 Duplicate items(?) 19:30:06 close action-1049 fix 5.1.3 19:30:07 close action-1050 in-page search 19:30:09 close action-1054 fix 5.1.3 19:30:10 close action-1056 SC 4.1 pf review 19:30:42 -Eric 19:30:43 -Jan 19:30:44 -Kim_Patch 19:30:45 -Jeanne 19:30:46 -Greg_Lowney 19:31:12 close action-1041 19:31:12 Closed action-1041. 19:31:24 close action-1042 19:31:24 Closed action-1042. 19:31:32 close action-1049 19:31:32 Closed action-1049. 19:31:41 close action-1050 19:31:41 Closed action-1050. 19:31:50 close action-1054 19:31:50 Closed action-1054. 19:31:55 -Jim_Allan 19:31:57 WAI_UAWG()1:00PM has ended 19:31:57 Attendees were Jeanne, Jan, Greg_Lowney, Jim_Allan, Kim_Patch, Eric 20:13:43 Zakim has left #ua 21:09:09 rrsagent, make minutes 21:09:09 I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-minutes.html allanj 21:09:25 zakim, please part 21:09:45 rrsagent, please part 21:09:45 I see 2 open action items saved in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-actions.rdf : 21:09:45 ACTION: jeanne to split 1.1.5 from email with edits from above. [1] 21:09:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-irc#T18-25-03 21:09:45 ACTION: Jan to write an intro paragraph for UAAG 2.0 Conformance Applicability Notes [2] 21:09:45 recorded in http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-ua-irc#T18-53-21