16:00:52 <RRSAgent> RRSAgent has joined #html-a11y
16:00:52 <RRSAgent> logging to http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-html-a11y-irc
16:00:54 <trackbot> RRSAgent, make logs world
16:00:54 <Zakim> Zakim has joined #html-a11y
16:00:56 <trackbot> Zakim, this will be 2119
16:00:56 <Zakim> ok, trackbot; I see WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM scheduled to start 60 minutes ago
16:00:57 <trackbot> Meeting: HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
16:00:57 <trackbot> Date: 18 December 2014
16:00:57 <trackbot> Sorry, chaals, I don't understand 'trackbot, wake up please'. Please refer to <http://www.w3.org/2005/06/tracker/irc> for help.
16:01:13 <chaals> zakim, this is 2119
16:01:13 <Zakim> ok, chaals; that matches WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM
16:01:43 <Zakim> +Adrian_Roselli
16:01:44 <LJWatson> zakim, LJWatson is me
16:01:44 <Zakim> sorry, LJWatson, I do not recognize a party named 'LJWatson'
16:01:49 <Zakim> +ShaneM
16:01:49 <aardrian> aardrian has joined #html-a11y
16:01:58 <aardrian> zakim, who is here?
16:01:58 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, [IPcaller], Adrian_Roselli, ShaneM
16:01:59 <LJWatson> zakim, [IPcaller] is me
16:02:00 <Zakim> On IRC I see aardrian, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals, Judy, LJWatson, paulc, liam, ShaneM, janina, MarkS, cabanier, hober, sivoais, joanie, trackbot
16:02:00 <Zakim> +LJWatson; got it
16:02:03 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:02:10 <Zakim> + +1.617.319.aaaa
16:02:22 <IanPouncey> IanPouncey has joined #html-a11y
16:02:35 <MarkS> zakim, aaaa is me
16:02:36 <Zakim> +MarkS; got it
16:02:58 <chaals> zakim, agenda?
16:02:58 <Zakim> I see nothing on the agenda
16:02:59 <Zakim> +??P17
16:03:00 <chaals> agenda+ alt note
16:03:01 <chaals> agenda+ WishList: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Wishlist_for_HTML5.1
16:03:01 <chaals> agenda+ Keyboard access - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accesskey
16:03:01 <chaals> agenda+ First meeting of 2015: date?
16:03:01 <chaals> agenda+ Any other business?
16:03:07 <janina> zakim, ??P17 is me
16:03:07 <Zakim> +janina; got it
16:03:11 <chaals> zakim, [ip is me
16:03:11 <Zakim> +chaals; got it
16:03:25 <chaals> zakim, who is here?
16:03:25 <Zakim> On the phone I see Judy, LJWatson, Adrian_Roselli, ShaneM, chaals, MarkS, janina
16:03:27 <Zakim> On IRC I see IanPouncey, aardrian, Zakim, RRSAgent, chaals, Judy, LJWatson, paulc, liam, ShaneM, janina, MarkS, cabanier, hober, sivoais, joanie, trackbot
16:03:43 <Zakim> +Joanmarie_Diggs
16:03:47 <Zakim> +Liam
16:04:15 <paulc> zakim, what is the code?
16:04:15 <Zakim> the conference code is 2119 (tel:+1.617.761.6200 sip:zakim@voip.w3.org), paulc
16:04:19 <MarkS> scribe: MarkS
16:04:31 <MarkS> zakim, agenda?
16:04:31 <Zakim> I see 5 items remaining on the agenda:
16:04:32 <Zakim> 1. alt note [from chaals]
16:04:32 <Zakim> 2. WishList: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Wishlist_for_HTML5.1 [from chaals]
16:04:32 <Zakim> 3. Keyboard access - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accesskey [from chaals]
16:04:32 <Zakim> 4. First meeting of 2015: date? [from chaals]
16:04:32 <Zakim> 5. Any other business? [from chaals]
16:04:37 <Zakim> +[Microsoft]
16:04:44 <paulc> zakim, [Microsoft] is paulc
16:04:44 <Zakim> +paulc; got it
16:04:51 <MarkS> zakim, take up first item
16:04:51 <Zakim> I don't understand 'take up first item', MarkS
16:05:01 <chaals> zakim, take up item 1
16:05:02 <Zakim> agendum 1. "alt note" taken up [from chaals]
16:05:19 <MarkS> CN: Any other business?
16:05:30 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:05:32 <MarkS> JS: Add a longdesc topic
16:05:37 <IanPouncey> Zakim, IPcaller is me
16:05:37 <Zakim> +IanPouncey; got it
16:05:48 <chaals> agenda+ longdesc question
16:06:14 <MarkS> CN: RE: ALT Note, there are some bugs filed.
16:06:21 <MarkS> SM: That's were we are right now
16:06:36 <MarkS> CN: Any other bugs out there?
16:06:41 <MarkS> JS: yes, I have a few
16:06:44 <MarkS> SM: me too
16:07:31 <MarkS> LQ: Timeline?
16:07:56 <MarkS> SM: Updated doc by end of january is realistic
16:08:57 <MarkS> ...get bugs filed by jan 9 please
16:09:02 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
16:09:02 <Zakim> agendum 2. "WishList: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/index.php?title=Wishlist_for_HTML5.1" taken up [from chaals]
16:10:03 <MarkS> CN: 5.1 wish list.  This is a tracking device.  Prioritized by where the activity is. If you feel strongly about something, do work to push it along
16:10:22 <MarkS> ...anything else anyone wants to see on this list?
16:11:01 <MarkS> CN: I've heard discussions about how to handle panels, accordions, carousels, etc.
16:11:21 <MarkS> ...there has been discussions to spec these up in HTML
16:11:32 <MarkS> ...Leonie has done some work
16:11:44 <MarkS> ...right now it heavily relies on ARIA and interop is problematic
16:11:54 <MarkS> +1
16:12:54 <MarkS> MS: This is a very difficult thing to implement interoperable.  Would like to discuss possible solutions further
16:12:58 <MarkS> CN: I will put in wiki
16:13:01 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
16:13:01 <Zakim> agendum 3. "Keyboard access - https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Accesskey" taken up [from chaals]
16:13:23 <MarkS> CN: s/interoperable/interoperably
16:13:33 <MarkS> s/CN: s/interoperable/interoperably/
16:13:40 <MarkS> s/interoperable/interoperably/
16:14:08 <MarkS> CN: link to use cases and requirements in the wiki.  what we are trying to achieve
16:14:42 <MarkS> ...accesskey is the motivating problem, has potential to clear up other lingering issues, tabindex, semantic elements with builtin interactions.
16:15:03 <MarkS> ...should we be working on this in isolation, or as a greater interaction issue
16:16:03 <MarkS> ...I would like to keep it simple, but we need to consider how any changes made in this space affect other interaction pieces of HTML
16:16:03 <MarkS> ...has anyone looked at these use cases lastly?
16:16:03 <MarkS> LW: I have
16:16:03 <MarkS> LQ: me too
16:16:17 <MarkS> ...think its worth looking into what HTML and browser people think about keybindings
16:16:39 <MarkS> ...just to see if it would be productive to work on interaction as a whole
16:16:53 <janina> q+
16:17:23 <MarkS> CN: at yandex, we are thinking about this a lot.  we would like it to be better in our browser and in our services.  considering whether working with access key as it is is better than nothing...
16:17:35 <MarkS> LW: I think its very broken as it stands.
16:17:55 <plh> plh has joined #html-a11y
16:18:02 <Zakim> +Plh
16:18:05 <MarkS> CN: Paul, is the IE team interested in working on this problem at all?
16:18:27 <MarkS> PC is not santa clause
16:18:39 <paulc> s/clause/claus/
16:19:04 <MarkS> PC: I think you should ask cynthia about that
16:19:58 <MarkS> CN: I've been keeping the wiki page up to date.  There are a list of bugs.
16:20:21 <MarkS> ...what happens if you have an accesskey on a random element?  how does it affect role?  not at all.
16:21:07 <MarkS> ...23612: script in there has an example,
16:21:17 <MarkS> ...think we should be changing that.
16:21:42 <MarkS> ...27654: the user should be in charge of what keys are available to use as access keys
16:21:56 <MarkS> ...provides an algorithm for UA to select available keys
16:22:06 <MarkS> ...I agree that the user should have some control over this
16:22:35 <MarkS> s/example,/example of who should inform who
16:23:17 <MarkS> ...next bug, privacy.  Can increase the accuracy of fingerprinting users.  Reveals too much info about who you are and track you
16:24:08 <MarkS> ...still not clear why we have accesskey label anyway.  especially if the page shouldn't be telling the user how their browser should work
16:24:48 <MarkS> ...wonders if the screenreader would rely on the DOM or the AAPI in this case
16:25:06 <MarkS> JD: ORCA does everything through the AAPI, which gets most of its info from the DOM...
16:25:36 <MarkS> ...could expose this info without it being in the DOM, like with CSS generated content
16:25:42 <MarkS> CN: and that is the common approach, correct?
16:25:59 <MarkS> JD: that is my understanding, but I don't know about JAWS and other windows Screenreaders
16:26:08 <joanie> s/ORCA/Orca/
16:26:13 <MarkS> CN: Still work to do on this topic.
16:26:15 <chaals> q?
16:26:18 <chaals> ack jan
16:26:56 <MarkS> JS: Here's a crazy idea.  I get nervous about anything keyboard centric since we are seeing more touch and voice interaction
16:27:53 <MarkS> ...if we are saying that the user supplies the keys, were not just talking about a standard web page, its pages the user uses frequently, like an app, where users would take advantage of such a shortcut.
16:28:13 <chaals> q+ to shoot you down (not really…)
16:28:31 <MarkS> ...perhaps we leave it entirely up to the user, that they can add their own shortcuts to any focusable content
16:29:11 <MarkS> CN: the activation behavior, may be a gesture rather than a key, could also be a voice command.  We need to be very careful.  At the bottom of the page, there is a statement that hints at this.
16:29:18 <MarkS> ...can't just be a single key
16:29:35 <MarkS> ...need to support various interactions
16:30:19 <MarkS> ...agree that pages you are not likely to visit often, user won't hunt around for accesskeys.  The approach of allowing the user to create their own bookmarks/shortcuts would be a UA feature, nothing to do with HTML
16:31:35 <MarkS> JS: I wonder if we made the automatic enumeration of elements, like Lynx did, you could port your shortcuts across environments
16:31:44 <plh> q+
16:31:45 <MarkS> CN: like XPointer, but not something you would put in HTML spec.
16:31:53 <chaals> ack me
16:31:53 <Zakim> chaals, you wanted to shoot you down (not really…)
16:31:55 <chaals> ack li
16:31:55 <Zakim> liam, you wanted to support/ask-about more user control of access keys, e.g. rebinding
16:32:43 <MarkS> LQ: the web annotations working group is facing the problem of how to annotate a piece of the document.  Associating text with a particular part of the page could be extending to supporting shortcuts
16:33:17 <MarkS> ...To what extent is user control of accesskeys available?  Can you override them?
16:33:28 <MarkS> CN: only through extensions at this point, i believe.
16:33:40 <MarkS> ...support for access keys in general is poor to terrible.
16:34:04 <chaals> ack pl
16:34:09 <MarkS> ...Opera mini probably has the best implementation of allowing users to overwrite
16:34:44 <MarkS> PLH: I wanted to agree with chaals, this is about getting the config from one UA to another.  As soon as you start talking about making the config portable, its not within the realm of HTML
16:34:55 <MarkS> ...nice to have, I agree, but outside of HTML scope.
16:35:22 <liam> [Liam wonders where plh feels such a conversation _could_ occur (agree not HTML spec) ]
16:36:32 <plh> [sure, but don't we have a long list of things to tackle for HTML?]
16:36:38 <MarkS> CN: think we should look into a way of revealing what the shortcuts are. No JS API currently.
16:36:50 <MarkS> ...would be helpful to expose what the shortcuts are
16:37:32 <MarkS> JS: I like that idea a lot.  I can see a l lot of applications that could benefit from that.
16:37:34 <chaals> s/the shortcuts are/executable things are in the page and can they have an identifier/
16:37:43 <chaals> s/the shortcuts are/executable things are in the page and can they have an identifier/
16:38:45 <Judy> q+
16:38:47 <MarkS> CN: is the obvious way to do this writing an extension spec, or file bugs on HTML?  Paul?
16:38:54 <chaals> ack ju
16:39:24 <MarkS> JB: I would think that the end goal would be to integrate solution into the HTML spec.  Extension spec for development, but path back into HTML
16:39:42 <MarkS> ...consider tapping into tabindex at the same time
16:40:00 <paulc> I suggest you talk to Robin about making the accesskey part of HTML5 (and other items like tabindex) into a "After HTML5" module so that it can be worked on following his new development methodology.
16:40:05 <MarkS> ...don't think a lot of incremental bugs is the most useful path.  anyone else?
16:40:07 <plh> q+
16:40:30 <MarkS> PC: I suggest talking to Robin about turning this topic into a module that people can start working on.
16:40:33 <Judy> s/Extension spec/Potentially extension spec/
16:40:40 <chaals> ack pl
16:40:44 <MarkS> ...get it into github so people can start contributing and commenting
16:41:11 <MarkS> PLH: Should work it as a module, with possible integration later on.  Agree that module is good idea and talking to robin
16:41:16 <plh> ack plh
16:41:23 <paulc> The module should probably include some part of http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/CR/editing.html#assigning-keyboard-shortcuts
16:41:25 <chaals> ACTION: chaals to talk torobin about an accesskey (maybe etc) module for HTML
16:41:25 <trackbot> Created ACTION-294 - Talk torobin about an accesskey (maybe etc) module for html [on Charles McCathie Nevile - due 2014-12-25].
16:41:37 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
16:41:37 <Zakim> agendum 4. "First meeting of 2015: date?" taken up [from chaals]
16:42:10 <MarkS> CN: this is last meeting for 2014.  What date should we resume in 2015?
16:42:11 <plh> january 8?
16:42:17 <paulc> Thu Jan 8 would be the likely candidate for next meeting.
16:42:34 <ShaneM> +1
16:42:36 <paulc> Jan 1 is obvious the first Thu and is NOT a candidate.
16:42:37 <aardrian> +1
16:42:39 <MarkS> +1
16:42:44 <Judy> +1
16:42:46 <paulc> Jan 8 +1
16:42:59 <MarkS> CN: January the 8th will be next meeting then
16:43:06 <chaals> RESOLUTION: next meeting january 8th
16:43:14 <Zakim> +ShaneM.a
16:43:21 <Zakim> +[IPcaller]
16:43:50 <chaals> zakim, [ip is leonie
16:43:50 <Zakim> +leonie; got it
16:44:04 <MarkS> zakim, take up next item
16:44:04 <Zakim> agendum 5. "Any other business?" taken up [from chaals]
16:44:06 <Zakim> -ShaneM
16:44:09 <chaals> zakim, take up item 6
16:44:09 <Zakim> agendum 6. "longdesc question" taken up [from chaals]
16:44:31 <MarkS> CN: longdesc, Janina?
16:44:33 <chaals> janina?
16:45:21 <Zakim> -chaals
16:45:31 <janina> janina has joined #html-a11y
16:45:47 <Zakim> -janina
16:46:21 <MarkS> PLH: I think MIT is experiencing network issues
16:46:35 <MarkS> ...anyone dialing in over IP will likely have issues
16:47:18 <Zakim> -LJWatson
16:47:32 <paulc> Happy Holidays to everyone.
16:48:39 <MarkS> JB: Reminder for those from Member orgs to comment on PR with regards to longdesc.  Janina had a question, but since she is not here...
16:49:03 <MarkS> ...I propose we end the call
16:49:13 <Zakim> -Plh
16:49:21 <Zakim> -ShaneM.a
16:49:47 <MarkS> LW: Chaals just messaged us that he would like to thank everyone for the last 12 months of work and to have a happy holiday
16:49:52 <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
16:49:52 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MarkS
16:50:20 <Zakim> -paulc
16:50:29 <Zakim> -leonie
16:50:36 <Zakim> -MarkS
16:50:38 <Zakim> -Adrian_Roselli
16:50:40 <Zakim> -Joanmarie_Diggs
16:50:43 <sivoais_> sivoais_ has joined #html-a11y
16:50:44 <Zakim> -Judy
16:50:47 <Zakim> -IanPouncey
16:50:48 <LJWatson> LJWatson has left #html-a11y
16:51:00 <MarkS> zakim, who is on the phone?
16:51:00 <Zakim> On the phone I see Liam
16:51:04 <Zakim> -Liam
16:51:06 <Zakim> WAI_PFWG(HTML TF)10:00AM has ended
16:51:06 <Zakim> Attendees were Judy, Adrian_Roselli, ShaneM, LJWatson, +1.617.319.aaaa, MarkS, janina, chaals, Joanmarie_Diggs, Liam, paulc, IanPouncey, Plh, [IPcaller], leonie
16:51:08 <MarkS> rrsagent, make minutes
16:51:08 <RRSAgent> I have made the request to generate http://www.w3.org/2014/12/18-html-a11y-minutes.html MarkS
16:57:00 <MarkS> liam, i can take care of it :)
16:57:04 <MarkS> working on it now
17:06:15 <liam> thanks!
18:40:53 <MarkS> wow liam, you've been busy!
18:50:03 <liam> :)
18:50:09 <liam> well, i didn't write the document
18:50:10 <liam> s
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20:10:11 <chaals> chaals has joined #html-a11y